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FlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
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ZFcrush
Profile Joined May 2023
1 Post
May 26 2023 23:12 GMT
#101
I wonder if you could boost Protoss's results by making maps such that the 3rd base is ever so slightly further away than they are in your standard tournament map. My thinking is that it would make PvT slightly more Protoss favored without affecting ZvP very much. It would make Protoss defending their 3rd a little harder PvZ, but perhaps a tiny increase in 3rd distance might not affect PvZ a whole lot since by the time Protoss gets their 3rd they usually have a pretty big army and a lot of PvZ has Protoss fighting for a long time on 2 base anyway.

Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up.
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6174 Posts
May 27 2023 05:52 GMT
#102
How bout having match up specific maps? Would propably result in a lot of complaining from the losing race even when the results were determined by skill rather than map imba.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway688 Posts
May 27 2023 08:46 GMT
#103
The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race.
Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race.
Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage.
Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything.
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
May 27 2023 12:25 GMT
#104
On May 27 2023 08:12 ZFcrush wrote:
I wonder if you could boost Protoss's results by making maps such that the 3rd base is ever so slightly further away than they are in your standard tournament map. My thinking is that it would make PvT slightly more Protoss favored without affecting ZvP very much. It would make Protoss defending their 3rd a little harder PvZ, but perhaps a tiny increase in 3rd distance might not affect PvZ a whole lot since by the time Protoss gets their 3rd they usually have a pretty big army and a lot of PvZ has Protoss fighting for a long time on 2 base anyway.

Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up.


Eclipse is right down the middle at 50% PvT and has a far away third
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 12:28:39
May 27 2023 12:28 GMT
#105
On May 27 2023 14:52 Piste wrote:
How bout having match up specific maps? Would propably result in a lot of complaining from the losing race even when the results were determined by skill rather than map imba.


Instead, just strive for an even map pool overall. If one map has 55% in one matchup, then another map in the same pool should have 55% for the other race, so that every matchup in total is at 50%.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
PhilGood2DaY
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany7424 Posts
May 27 2023 22:04 GMT
#106
On May 27 2023 17:46 Timebon3s wrote:
The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race.
Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race.
Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage.
Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything.


Of course the best race is Random by A LOT..

but it is downright impossible to play Random as well as one race..

I mean just count how many match ups you need to be able to play at top pro level.. So basically we can ignore this one entirely.. rofl
hatred outlives the hateful
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2267 Posts
May 28 2023 03:15 GMT
#107
On May 27 2023 17:46 Timebon3s wrote:
The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race.
Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race.
Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage.
Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything.


ppl would complain about RNG, "you won cause of ZvP, lucky roll" kind of argument.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2660 Posts
May 28 2023 03:30 GMT
#108
Random vs Random would make BW become a shit game really. Both players roll a dice and no one has a clue what kind of opening they should use and scouting luck would play an even bigger role in this case. All macro builds would go down the toilet as everyone tries to get some cheap advantages early on, probably by cheese.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway688 Posts
May 28 2023 07:21 GMT
#109
I think it would make for really fun games.
Only way to find out is to make a big RvR tournament with a big prize pool.
You’re all wrong, this would be amazing. You’re just stuck in an old mindset:D
bovienchien
Profile Joined March 2014
Vietnam1152 Posts
May 28 2023 16:17 GMT
#110
We can use 2 race (main race and off race) for every players.

Game 1: Main race vs main race
Next games: winner plays main race, loser plays off race. Or it's opposite.

This thing reduces important of race.

We have so many ways to players play more than 1 race. They will practice more and we have more amazing/fun matchup/game.

Example: Players have to choose their race (main race is only maximum 2 times) for each round before tournament starts.

I play Terran, I will choose Ro24 (T), 16 (P), 8(P), 4(P), Final (T)
https://www.facebook.com/StarcraftRemasteredVN/
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-28 19:27:39
May 28 2023 19:25 GMT
#111
Was it possible for someone to combine the following?
  • Bisu's peak PvZ
  • Stork's peak PvT. Or maybe even better, insert a motivated Jangbi (key word being motivated, of course, since we're talking about a guy who had entire calendar years of 30% performance). One can also consider taking Snow in the Afreeca era.
  • Rain's PvP (or take Bisu if you want Kespa era)
  • Flash and Jaedong's relentless drive


Both Flash and Jaedong achieved the comparable level for TvX and ZvX respectively, combined with the drive to be and stay #1, at least for some period of time. And Jaedong's period of that was partly if not largely cut short by Flash achieving that.
  • (and the betrayer Savior even managed to become bonjwa while never becoming more than decent at ZvZ)

No Protoss has ever checked all of the above boxes at the same time. The closest player is Bisu, who was dominant at PvZ and PvP at times, and at the same time for at least a brief moment in history. Bisu also achieved a very high PvT ELO from executing the right game plans and being more skilled than a large number of proleague opponents.

But Bisu never really understood PvT the way Stork did, or had the final level of battle execution Jangbi did. So he was never able to reach the PvT level needed to rise to that final level.
  • Honestly, I don't think Jaedong really understood ZvP as well as the absolute peak ZvP understanding players did either (e.g. Savior's ZvP understanding exceeded Jaedong's, but Jaedong's skill -- and later integrity -- exceeded Savior's even more). But the textbook version of the matchup was skewed in ZvP's favor at a time that lined up with Jaedong's overall peak. And so Jaedong once went a full calendar year without losing to Protoss.


Is the lack of Protoss player checking all those boxes due to Protoss being worse?

Given that different Protoss players have been able to achieve the bonjwa-esque PvX level for different matchups, it seems like the issue is the challenge of combining all these skills at the same time.

That said, it's possible that it's simply "harder" for Protoss to reach this level simultaneously for its matchups, than other races.

The discussion should at least involve this question.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2660 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-28 20:25:03
May 28 2023 20:24 GMT
#112
^ I think Bisu more or less achieved what you're describing. It's just his PvZ is too revolutionary, combined with the existence of Stork and Jangbi, that we tend to cloud our own judgement about his PvT.

Here's his Kespa record from TLPD:
vT: 128-75 (63.05%)
vZ: 133-53 (71.51%)
vP: 110-62 (63.95%)

Flash is out of this world, so here's Jaedong:
vT: 172-101 (63.00%)
vZ: 164-61 (72.89%)
vP: 126-61 (67.38%)

Here's Stork PvT: 151-78 (65.94%)

You can see that Bisu's PvT was not that different to Stork's. And Jaedong's level in different matchups was not that equal too.


But to be honest, here we are only talking about the absolute no.1 of each race so it could be totally by chance that Bisu is not as all-rounded as Flash and Jaedong. If we expand to the top 5/10 of each race, the story for Terran and Zerg players are not that different to Protoss. Let's just get back to the table I made earlier:

[image loading]
You can see all top Terran players are better at TvZ than TvP. And likewise, all Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT.
So apart from a few selected players, no one in this game can be that all-rounded in all matchups.


stambe
Profile Joined May 2005
Bulgaria492 Posts
June 14 2023 19:21 GMT
#113
On May 29 2023 01:17 bovienchien wrote:
We can use 2 race (main race and off race) for every players.

Game 1: Main race vs main race
Next games: winner plays main race, loser plays off race. Or it's opposite.

This thing reduces important of race.

We have so many ways to players play more than 1 race. They will practice more and we have more amazing/fun matchup/game.

Example: Players have to choose their race (main race is only maximum 2 times) for each round before tournament starts.

I play Terran, I will choose Ro24 (T), 16 (P), 8(P), 4(P), Final (T)


Sounds fun, but since you are restricting everyone's main race playtime to such a degree, at what point your off race becomes your main and vice versa ? After 2 years of doing this im not sure the player himself will be able to point out which of the 2 races he plays is his main at that point
Valks rulzz
A.Alm
Profile Joined September 2012
Sweden515 Posts
June 14 2023 22:22 GMT
#114
On May 25 2023 04:19 TMNT wrote:
The numbers (2023):

[image loading]

Snow has improved his PvZ a lot since... I don't know exactly, but PvZ used to be his weakness for sure.
In ASL14 the Terrans tried to kill him (again) by putting him in the same group with Soma Qiueen Soulkey (disgusting lol) but he ended up top of the group.

Mini is so inconsistent it almost feels like anything anyone says about him would be true if you pick the right period to examine. He can lose to Shuttle in Set 1 then does an all kill in Set 2 of Proleague.


nice table! what data are you using?
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
June 15 2023 01:38 GMT
#115
So many toss users looking for an imbalance excuse to explain away poor decision making. Entire race so used to being the hammer as their default setting they make little to no moves that involve a superior strategy or technique. And yet all of the protoss players have pieces to the puzzle but don't put enough of them together to make a difference. They pick that one thing they really like such as reaver or shuttle play or whatever flavor and then ONLY do that for an entire game. Meanwhile win or lose their opponent is implementing counters to that making whatever that is less valuable.

Sort of reminds me when zergs don't get burrow. 100/100 to stop expansions, invisible scouts, ambush, worker/unit saver. Ambush is probably the weakest of these versions, but the rest are great, but so very few zergs add it into their play. You would be hard pressed to find many games where that 100/100 upgrade would not have saved them 100/100.

But also I do think that protoss has so many styles and moves it is hard to be good at all of them. Carrier operates differently than gatewayman than arbriter than storm than reaver than corsair. And then there is stylistic versions of all of those like rushing them out or just adding them into your play. Some do rushed reaver plays meanwhile snow can get them whenever and seriously delay your movement.

But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance.
claire_thu
Profile Joined April 2023
5 Posts
June 15 2023 07:55 GMT
#116
crypto scammer, who cares
A.Alm
Profile Joined September 2012
Sweden515 Posts
June 15 2023 08:15 GMT
#117
On June 15 2023 16:55 claire_thu wrote:
crypto scammer, who cares


crypto, who cares
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2660 Posts
June 15 2023 08:45 GMT
#118
On June 15 2023 07:22 A.Alm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2023 04:19 TMNT wrote:
The numbers (2023):

[image loading]

Snow has improved his PvZ a lot since... I don't know exactly, but PvZ used to be his weakness for sure.
In ASL14 the Terrans tried to kill him (again) by putting him in the same group with Soma Qiueen Soulkey (disgusting lol) but he ended up top of the group.

Mini is so inconsistent it almost feels like anything anyone says about him would be true if you pick the right period to examine. He can lose to Shuttle in Set 1 then does an all kill in Set 2 of Proleague.


nice table! what data are you using?

From eloboard.com
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2660 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-15 09:07:59
June 15 2023 09:06 GMT
#119
On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance.

It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data.

What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races?

Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army.

Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay.

I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T.
Postaljester_
Profile Joined April 2023
27 Posts
June 15 2023 16:03 GMT
#120
1a2a3a4a5a is the only option when you are fighting an army that can hit you from off screen.
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