EPTMaybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up.
FlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas - Page 6
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ZFcrush
1 Post
Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up. | ||
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Piste
6179 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway702 Posts
Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race. Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage. Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 27 2023 08:12 ZFcrush wrote: I wonder if you could boost Protoss's results by making maps such that the 3rd base is ever so slightly further away than they are in your standard tournament map. My thinking is that it would make PvT slightly more Protoss favored without affecting ZvP very much. It would make Protoss defending their 3rd a little harder PvZ, but perhaps a tiny increase in 3rd distance might not affect PvZ a whole lot since by the time Protoss gets their 3rd they usually have a pretty big army and a lot of PvZ has Protoss fighting for a long time on 2 base anyway. Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up. Eclipse is right down the middle at 50% PvT and has a far away third | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 27 2023 14:52 Piste wrote: How bout having match up specific maps? Would propably result in a lot of complaining from the losing race even when the results were determined by skill rather than map imba. Instead, just strive for an even map pool overall. If one map has 55% in one matchup, then another map in the same pool should have 55% for the other race, so that every matchup in total is at 50%. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On May 27 2023 17:46 Timebon3s wrote: The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race. Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race. Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage. Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything. Of course the best race is Random by A LOT.. but it is downright impossible to play Random as well as one race.. I mean just count how many match ups you need to be able to play at top pro level.. So basically we can ignore this one entirely.. rofl | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2277 Posts
On May 27 2023 17:46 Timebon3s wrote: The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race. Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race. Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage. Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything. ppl would complain about RNG, "you won cause of ZvP, lucky roll" kind of argument. | ||
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TMNT
2836 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway702 Posts
Only way to find out is to make a big RvR tournament with a big prize pool. You’re all wrong, this would be amazing. You’re just stuck in an old mindset:D | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Game 1: Main race vs main race Next games: winner plays main race, loser plays off race. Or it's opposite. This thing reduces important of race. We have so many ways to players play more than 1 race. They will practice more and we have more amazing/fun matchup/game. Example: Players have to choose their race (main race is only maximum 2 times) for each round before tournament starts. I play Terran, I will choose Ro24 (T), 16 (P), 8(P), 4(P), Final (T) | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
Both Flash and Jaedong achieved the comparable level for TvX and ZvX respectively, combined with the drive to be and stay #1, at least for some period of time. And Jaedong's period of that was partly if not largely cut short by Flash achieving that.
No Protoss has ever checked all of the above boxes at the same time. The closest player is Bisu, who was dominant at PvZ and PvP at times, and at the same time for at least a brief moment in history. Bisu also achieved a very high PvT ELO from executing the right game plans and being more skilled than a large number of proleague opponents. But Bisu never really understood PvT the way Stork did, or had the final level of battle execution Jangbi did. So he was never able to reach the PvT level needed to rise to that final level.
Is the lack of Protoss player checking all those boxes due to Protoss being worse? Given that different Protoss players have been able to achieve the bonjwa-esque PvX level for different matchups, it seems like the issue is the challenge of combining all these skills at the same time. That said, it's possible that it's simply "harder" for Protoss to reach this level simultaneously for its matchups, than other races. The discussion should at least involve this question. | ||
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TMNT
2836 Posts
Here's his Kespa record from TLPD: vT: 128-75 (63.05%) vZ: 133-53 (71.51%) vP: 110-62 (63.95%) Flash is out of this world, so here's Jaedong: vT: 172-101 (63.00%) vZ: 164-61 (72.89%) vP: 126-61 (67.38%) Here's Stork PvT: 151-78 (65.94%) You can see that Bisu's PvT was not that different to Stork's. And Jaedong's level in different matchups was not that equal too. But to be honest, here we are only talking about the absolute no.1 of each race so it could be totally by chance that Bisu is not as all-rounded as Flash and Jaedong. If we expand to the top 5/10 of each race, the story for Terran and Zerg players are not that different to Protoss. Let's just get back to the table I made earlier: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PHZ9nFv.png) You can see all top Terran players are better at TvZ than TvP. And likewise, all Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. So apart from a few selected players, no one in this game can be that all-rounded in all matchups. | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
On May 29 2023 01:17 bovienchien wrote: We can use 2 race (main race and off race) for every players. Game 1: Main race vs main race Next games: winner plays main race, loser plays off race. Or it's opposite. This thing reduces important of race. We have so many ways to players play more than 1 race. They will practice more and we have more amazing/fun matchup/game. Example: Players have to choose their race (main race is only maximum 2 times) for each round before tournament starts. I play Terran, I will choose Ro24 (T), 16 (P), 8(P), 4(P), Final (T) Sounds fun, but since you are restricting everyone's main race playtime to such a degree, at what point your off race becomes your main and vice versa ? After 2 years of doing this im not sure the player himself will be able to point out which of the 2 races he plays is his main at that point  | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden526 Posts
On May 25 2023 04:19 TMNT wrote: The numbers (2023): Snow has improved his PvZ a lot since... I don't know exactly, but PvZ used to be his weakness for sure. In ASL14 the Terrans tried to kill him (again) by putting him in the same group with Soma Qiueen Soulkey (disgusting lol) but he ended up top of the group. Mini is so inconsistent it almost feels like anything anyone says about him would be true if you pick the right period to examine. He can lose to Shuttle in Set 1 then does an all kill in Set 2 of Proleague. nice table! what data are you using? | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1599 Posts
Sort of reminds me when zergs don't get burrow. 100/100 to stop expansions, invisible scouts, ambush, worker/unit saver. Ambush is probably the weakest of these versions, but the rest are great, but so very few zergs add it into their play. You would be hard pressed to find many games where that 100/100 upgrade would not have saved them 100/100. But also I do think that protoss has so many styles and moves it is hard to be good at all of them. Carrier operates differently than gatewayman than arbriter than storm than reaver than corsair. And then there is stylistic versions of all of those like rushing them out or just adding them into your play. Some do rushed reaver plays meanwhile snow can get them whenever and seriously delay your movement. But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. | ||
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claire_thu
5 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden526 Posts
On June 15 2023 16:55 claire_thu wrote: crypto scammer, who cares crypto, who cares | ||
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TMNT
2836 Posts
From eloboard.com | ||
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TMNT
2836 Posts
On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote: But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. | ||
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Postaljester_
32 Posts
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