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PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.
Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.
From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.
In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.
And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race.
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Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ.
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On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.
Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.
From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.
In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.
And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race.
Beautifully written and well reasoned.
Best post in the thread so far, imo.
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On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote:
There hasn't been a Protoss bonjwa because for much of the game's history (during which most bonjwas emerged), Protoss was significantly underpowered against Zerg on most, if not all, of the maps played at the time. The first bonjwas were always likely to be Terran because the maps were Terran favoured. The game itself was also less explored; people didn't even muta micro, and Protoss didn't forge expand, and on many maps it wasn't even possible.
The times of Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, and even some of sAviOr's time to a lesser extent, had maps that were very bad for Protoss. Bisu's revolution fixed PvZ, but it required the right maps.
For a long time, on most if not all maps that people played on, Terran slightly beat Zerg, Zerg slightly beat Protoss, but Protoss only slightly beat Terran for the early years. Soon, Terran became even to Protoss, but the other matchups remained slightly imbalanced, and ZvP was the worst.
It was only after Bisu that Protoss stopped being underpowered, and for a while, Protoss even became the strongest race, during a time known as the age of the six dragons. This wasn't just handed down for free through maps, but was earned through innovation, like the one time that the pro ZvT winrate went significantly above 50%, which was after the first emergence of crazy zerg.
After Bisu slew sAviOr, ended his reign, and fixed PvZ with his revolution, StarCraft started to resemble the game that we have today. Protoss entered its true form. The earliest bonjwas, although legendary gigachads whose deeds still inspire awe, are not relevant as data points in modern StarCraft. The game they played was too different.
Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war.
Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork.
Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top.
Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa.
For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa.
Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument.
What is a good argument is racial map statistics.
Great insightful post! Puts everything into better perspective.
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On May 24 2023 20:09 Heartland wrote:
That is just not true. What exactly is not true? Everything?
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On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.
Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.
From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.
In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.
And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race.
Shuttle is literally one of the worst progamer atm lol. Of course he gets blasted by the #1 zerg. Match ups are more determined by maps. Like we agreed on before, the maps favor protoss to do damage to zerg in early games (gaps in mineral lines) and cannon'able natural. I do agree Z>P all the way but it's hard for zergs to macro smoothly these days. It's important to get your eco going but brilliant protoss players like mini and snow are very good at micro'ing their zealots and disrupting that crucial drone timing. Frankly, it's harder for the zerg player to deal with the initial 1 probe + 1 zealot push since there are so many opportunities for protoss players to capitalize on as maps are not so kind to zergs.
It's funny you mention in straight up macro game that T favors Z. Nowadays, with the introduction of 2.5 hat by soma, it's on terran to do damage to Z eco whether by pushing with intiital 4 marines or preventing zerg to not eco up. Used to be the case that zerg had to do damage to terran with 2 hat or zerg had to force terran to make bunker when going 15cc. It's now the opposite. Zerg drones and drones and if terran lets that happen in early game game skews heavily to the zerg player. Soma even said you don't even need to harrass scv lines anymore. As you have 3 hatches instead of 2, you can easily overwhelm MnM army or just drone up based on scouting.
Zerg seems pretttty good with how builds have been optimized and evolved but the maps and zerg gamers being old are kinda dooming the zergs lol.
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On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ.
Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push.
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On May 25 2023 02:58 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.
Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.
From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.
In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.
And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race. Shuttle is literally one of the worst progamer atm lol. Of course he gets blasted by the #1 zerg. Match ups are more determined by maps.
I mentioned that game because I was watching that at the moment of writing. But I have seen countless of PvZ games with a scenario like that be it Best Snow or Mini playing.
It's important to get your eco going but brilliant protoss players like mini and snow are very good at micro'ing their zealots and disrupting that crucial drone timing. Frankly, it's harder for the zerg player to deal with the initial 1 probe + 1 zealot push since there are so many opportunities for protoss players to capitalize on as maps are not so kind to zergs.
And this part is exactly what I mean when I said the P has to be better. To not fall into the position that Shuttle was in that game, the P has to win the Zealots vs Lings micro battle in the early game. Get good trades, force Lings out, disrupt Zerg's mining, get a drone here and there (best scenario). Protoss has to force the situation. Zerg doesn't have to. If nothing happens, Zerg naturally just pulls away.
I guess what's left for us to debate is what is harder, Zealot or Ling micro?
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On May 25 2023 03:00 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ. Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push.
The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't.
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The numbers (2023):
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PHZ9nFv.png)
Snow has improved his PvZ a lot since... I don't know exactly, but PvZ used to be his weakness for sure.
In ASL14 the Terrans tried to kill him (again) by putting him in the same group with Soma Qiueen Soulkey (disgusting lol) but he ended up top of the group.
Mini is so inconsistent it almost feels like anything anyone says about him would be true if you pick the right period to examine. He can lose to Shuttle in Set 1 then does an all kill in Set 2 of Proleague.
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On May 25 2023 03:06 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 02:58 Shinokuki wrote:On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.
Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.
From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.
In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.
And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race. Shuttle is literally one of the worst progamer atm lol. Of course he gets blasted by the #1 zerg. Match ups are more determined by maps. I mentioned that game because I was watching that at the moment of writing. But I have seen countless of PvZ games with a scenario like that be it Best Snow or Mini playing. Show nested quote +It's important to get your eco going but brilliant protoss players like mini and snow are very good at micro'ing their zealots and disrupting that crucial drone timing. Frankly, it's harder for the zerg player to deal with the initial 1 probe + 1 zealot push since there are so many opportunities for protoss players to capitalize on as maps are not so kind to zergs. And this part is exactly what I mean when I said the P has to be better. To not fall into the position that Shuttle was in that game, the P has to win the Zealots vs Lings micro battle in the early game. Get good trades, force Lings out, disrupt Zerg's mining, get a drone here and there (best scenario). Protoss has to force the situation. Zerg doesn't have to. If nothing happens, Zerg naturally just pulls away. I guess what's left for us to debate is what is harder, Zealot or Ling micro?
Ling micro is harder pretty much because of the map design. Just go behind mineral line and go brrr with probe behind the zelot. Harder to micro 6 individual lings than microing 1 zelot. Zerg really does not want to lose more than 2 but it is w pretty normal to lose 2 lings to 1 probe/1zealot. Let's not forget the fact that protoss has also improved mining optimization so zerg has to force drone drilling even if they are 11 hatching. That's a big pretty big one as well. The entire game pretty much comes down to that early game pressure lol. Kinda sad state.
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On May 25 2023 03:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 03:00 Shinokuki wrote:On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ. Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push. The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't.
I thought we were talking about early game pressure? Snow is crushing it but mini does it better in early game.
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On May 25 2023 04:44 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 03:42 Magic Powers wrote:On May 25 2023 03:00 Shinokuki wrote:On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ. Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push. The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't. I thought we were talking about early game pressure? Snow is crushing it but mini does it better in early game.
Mini is great, don't get me wrong. By no means am I talking shit about him. But compared to Bisu and Snow he's just not on the same level.
The early game is essential for a good winrate, so I can't see Snow being worse than Mini there. Perhaps he's second to Bisu. I've watched quite a lot of his PvZ games and the things he does are just amazing. Putting tons of pressure on zerg with just a few zealots, and also defending his base near flawlessly each time. Zerg players have a much harder time either busting his base early or conceiling their tech, which forces them to opt for a macro build more often than against weaker protoss players.
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Snow has improved his PvZ a lot, but his mid and late game are not that impressive against Zergs with better mechanics. He's doing fine on 2 player maps where he can keep the engagements small and keep trading efficiently, but on 4 player maps you don't really expect him to win if it gets past midgame.
Mini can keep up all game long, his issue is indeed consistency. (And Soulkey, because Mini tries to push the envelope of how greedy P can be in the early game, and Soulkey tries to kill him with lings all the time)
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On May 25 2023 05:13 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 04:44 Shinokuki wrote:On May 25 2023 03:42 Magic Powers wrote:On May 25 2023 03:00 Shinokuki wrote:On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ. Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push. The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't. I thought we were talking about early game pressure? Snow is crushing it but mini does it better in early game. Mini is great, don't get me wrong. By no means am I talking shit about him. But compared to Bisu and Snow he's just not on the same level. The early game is essential for a good winrate, so I can't see Snow being worse than Mini there. Perhaps he's second to Bisu. I've watched quite a lot of his PvZ games and the things he does are just amazing. Putting tons of pressure on zerg with just a few zealots, and also defending his base near flawlessly each time. Zerg players have a much harder time either busting his base early or conceiling their tech, which forces them to opt for a macro build more often than against weaker protoss players.
But the thing is Snow is SOOO good at pvt that it carries his win rate and elo points while mini is not that good at pvt. So when you see it like that mini's pvz kinda makes up for his weak pvt so that hes still in top 5~7.
Snow is VERY weak to soma (Snow is 60-130 vs soma or something like that btw) and you may know soma is probably one of the most important and top tier zerg left and for snow to do not good vs him kinda shows you what snow's pvz is like. I.E soma still ahead vs best,snow but their records are not like snow's at least.
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there is no toss bonjwa because protoss needs to attack in order to create an advantage, meanwhile zergs and terran can just sit there and take things slowly.
after mid game, protoss losses a ton of value armywise.
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"The Xel'Naga created both the protoss and the zerg. They were the gods of their time".
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just dont make maps with garbage 3unit gap vertical wall ins and pvz is playable
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On May 25 2023 08:03 XenOsky wrote:
there is no toss bonjwa because protoss needs to attack in order to create an advantage, meanwhile zergs and terran can just sit there and take things slowly.
after mid game, protoss losses a ton of value armywise.
Terran must always attack vs Zerg, must often attack vs Protoss, and carriers exist.
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On May 25 2023 07:18 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 05:13 Magic Powers wrote:On May 25 2023 04:44 Shinokuki wrote:On May 25 2023 03:42 Magic Powers wrote:On May 25 2023 03:00 Shinokuki wrote:On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ. Not really. Snow isn't particularly known for his PvZ. He's a god at PvT. Mini and Bisu are gods at early game pressure. Mini 's game is basically trying to get ahead with the best mining optimization and harrassment in early game lol. Lot of zerg players know this so they go 11 hat most of the time to prevent 1:09 gate zealot timing push. The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't. I thought we were talking about early game pressure? Snow is crushing it but mini does it better in early game. Mini is great, don't get me wrong. By no means am I talking shit about him. But compared to Bisu and Snow he's just not on the same level. The early game is essential for a good winrate, so I can't see Snow being worse than Mini there. Perhaps he's second to Bisu. I've watched quite a lot of his PvZ games and the things he does are just amazing. Putting tons of pressure on zerg with just a few zealots, and also defending his base near flawlessly each time. Zerg players have a much harder time either busting his base early or conceiling their tech, which forces them to opt for a macro build more often than against weaker protoss players. But the thing is Snow is SOOO good at pvt that it carries his win rate and elo points while mini is not that good at pvt. So when you see it like that mini's pvz kinda makes up for his weak pvt so that hes still in top 5~7. Snow is VERY weak to soma (Snow is 60-130 vs soma or something like that btw) and you may know soma is probably one of the most important and top tier zerg left and for snow to do not good vs him kinda shows you what snow's pvz is like. I.E soma still ahead vs best,snow but their records are not like snow's at least.
What you're saying about Soma makes very little sense. Mini also has a negative record against Soma and is only a few % better against him than Snow is. Meanwhile Snow has a positive record against Soulkey while Mini has a negative record (about the same as Snow vs Soma).
By the by Snow is the better PvZ player with an overall winrate of significantly >50% while Mini is around 50% or below.
I really don't mean to shade Mini, because 50% in PvZ at the highest level is a huge accomplishment. But the numbers don't lie, only Bisu surpasses Snow's strength in PvZ at the moment, and it's only a minor difference.
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EPT
