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Magic Powers
Austria4320 Posts
On May 23 2023 13:21 Rainalcar wrote: I am 100% certain that Flash would never be able to be as successful with P. I am 100% certain that he would. And I'd be laying you 3:1 odds on that. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 23 2023 10:50 KwarK wrote: Yeah, the assertion is that the more talented players all happened to pick Terran (extremely unlikely over a large sample size) and that they could have just as easily used that same talent to dominate with Protoss. And yet somehow none of them did. If it's true then go do it. I think what helped Terran was BoxeRs star power. Him existing in Korea drew a hell of a lot of players to the Terran race overall so it's possible it had a big effect on who picked Terran overall. Without Boxer would we have had oov, Nada, FlaSh or FanTaSy I wonder? | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5130 Posts
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JClave
8 Posts
On May 23 2023 17:43 Magic Powers wrote: I am 100% certain that he would. And I'd be laying you 3:1 odds on that. He would have been successful like Snow and other god-tier toss. But not to the level he's known for. | ||
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JClave
8 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5130 Posts
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JClave
8 Posts
On May 23 2023 20:01 Peeano wrote: That's cute. Snow woud have lost just as hard if he had played Terran last ASL. He didn't win ASL yet because he failed to, not because he doesn't play Terran. He's a two time 2nd place in ASL. You realise he gets put into the most difficult group in Ro16 at least the last few ASL's because all the Terrans fear him. And Protoss relies more on luck against Zerg which is why he got eliminated by Zerg for many of the recent seasons (except for the last season where he was put in the Ro16 "Group of death" literally all ASL champions or strong contenders) | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5130 Posts
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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TMNT
2842 Posts
The only way you guys can be 100% certain that Flash would be as succesful/not succesful with Protoss, or Snow be more succesful with Terran, is to have a time machine. However, for the sake of discussion, you can say which outcome is more likely based on availabe evidences. For me, the last piece of evidences - a very important one - is Terran's success during the two years of Flash's absence. And by that I don't mean just the ASL results alone. Vermeer - the map that Flash has never played a game in - has a win rate of +55% in both matchups for Terran. That should tell you a lot. Light tried to switch to Protoss for a while, citing the maps were not good for Terran. He accomplished nothing with Protoss, switched back to Terran, and has since became the best player. That should be another useful indication. When Flash played random in ASL10, a PvZ against Soma. He couldn't handle a cross spawn Ling runby despite knowing before hand, then let the lings destroy his Nexus due to a lack of multitasking. Only one game of course. But it doesn't strike you that he'd have amazing PvZ. Recently, Best has been smashing everyone with his offraces (vs offrace), be it Zerg or Terran (he's at like 70% win rate in TvP, better than his PvT lol). That should tell you something too. Honestly, aside from belief (not wanting Flash/Terran legacy being tarnished by Tesagi), these days I don't see many evidences supporting that Tesagi is not true. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4320 Posts
People underestimate how important hard work is. | ||
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TMNT
2842 Posts
On May 23 2023 22:25 Magic Powers wrote: When a player off-races for a bit and fails, that doesn't mean anything. It still means something. Yes, that something may be very small but it's still larger than nothing. Furthermore, dismissing it as nothing but then you also have nothing to support the contrary idea, doesn't make your argument strong, does it? We have to work on the evidences we have, not the beliefs we hold. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway702 Posts
This is painfully evident. The game has been out for almost 30 years now and Koreans have been griding 15 hours a day for most of those years. If protoss was as good at top level, surely we would see it at the statistics. I agree with the guy above saying its the progamers fault for not picking the best race, though. Terran gets far in tournaments because it's good vs all 3 races. Zerg gets far because ZvP is a bullshit matchup where you have to have more skill + luck in order to win as P. Edit:and can we please not close all topics on this forum that acutally bring some discussion and life to this lifeless board please? | ||
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JClave
8 Posts
On May 23 2023 22:37 Timebon3s wrote: I agree with the guy above saying its the progamers fault for not picking the best race, though. Snow said he picked Protoss because it suits his play style and personality. Not everyone wants to play Terran even if it means higher win rate. I find Terran playstyle quite boring in comparison. I feel like I could figure out everything if I just thought hard about it. But with Protoss, there are many things which are interesting problems to solve. For example, engaging Terran army as Protoss is interesting because I have to maneuver my army into them to trade efficiently which involve some calculated risks. I can't just camp somewhere and snipe enemies taking no risks on my side. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway702 Posts
Protoss is very fun to play. Storm drops, reaver micro, engaging Terran as u say, and figuring out how to defeat zerg. Zerg is very fun as well. When to drone or make units, tech switches, muta micro and so on. Terran feels slow, clunky and dull. Vultures are fun though. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6636 Posts
Respectfully for Protoss players most of them picked the race cuz it was easy to get into. Nal ra . Reach Bisu Jangbi Rain Mini Stork. All those guys are very acomplished protoss. Sadly there is a peak for each human and they can acomplish it earlier or later.These days the most impressive protoss to me is Mini. He actually did very well in ASL reaching 4 ASL finals and winning one. As sad at it is for Snow. He only knows how to play well at home. And even at home is rare he win important games when it comes to aces. He tends to do well on bo9 formats where i guess there is less pressure on him. On stage he tends to flop very often. Even vs Flash in that infamous season with the most anti terran maps he barely won that. Im not sure how progamers are training anymore tbh. They spend 6 hours doing proleagues and playing 2 games. No one is getting better anymore. Maybe a real proleague with stablish teams like The Moo Proleague or the AFreeca team league can skill up these guys again. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia368 Posts
On May 23 2023 17:43 Magic Powers wrote: I am 100% certain that he would. And I'd be laying you 3:1 odds on that. I absolutely accept. Get him to switch, we'll make a contract. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
Other than that they're all eliminated by Z half way to finals..... | ||
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G5
United States2906 Posts
On May 23 2023 23:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Didnt Bisu say he has a progamer career cuz he picked protoss ? He tried terran and zerg and was trash. Respectfully for Protoss players most of them picked the race cuz it was easy to get into. Nal ra . Reach Bisu Jangbi Rain Mini Stork. All those guys are very acomplished protoss. Sadly there is a peak for each human and they can acomplish it earlier or later.These days the most impressive protoss to me is Mini. He actually did very well in ASL reaching 4 ASL finals and winning one. As sad at it is for Snow. He only knows how to play well at home. And even at home is rare he win important games when it comes to aces. He tends to do well on bo9 formats where i guess there is less pressure on him. On stage he tends to flop very often. Even vs Flash in that infamous season with the most anti terran maps he barely won that. Im not sure how progamers are training anymore tbh. They spend 6 hours doing proleagues and playing 2 games. No one is getting better anymore. Maybe a real proleague with stablish teams like The Moo Proleague or the AFreeca team league can skill up these guys again. Bro... with respect, I know you watch the ASL games because you cast them. How is Mini the most impressive Protoss you've seen as of late? Are we all gonna pretend Mini wasn't taking massive risks or straight up cutting a million probes and all-inning in almost every game he played (especially his games vs Z) on his ASL runs? The only Protoss to win an ASL in years was one of the best Protoss' in the world, coin flipping and praying. Come on now. FlaSh in this video is telling himself what every other Terran player tells themselves, "Protoss doesn't win because of skill, not because of the race". Ludicrous. The advantage isn't huge but T and Z definitely are slightly superior to Protoss at the pro level simply due to how the races were designed. We have 25 years of evidence and most of the player base is Protoss yet they achieve the least. Come on now. Sometimes I don't even know what people think they're watching when they watch professional Starcraft. | ||
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G5
United States2906 Posts
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