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On December 17 2017 14:01 c3rberUs wrote:
After giving this some thought, here's my opinion (after some contextualization.)
On the context of players being banned from sports for cheating, sAviOr cannot be seen in the same light. He didn't cheat, he went further, as he was supposedly (was it ever really substantially proven?) a central figure in facilitating the match-fixing activities.
On the context of crime, well, this one is fairly easy; he didn't exactly commit murder or whatever, so I feel this is out of context.
On the fact that he - hailed as one of, if not the greatest player to grace the game decided to abuse the weight of his name and influence in the pro circuit is very wrong.
On the context of other similar cases in other esports; I don't really know much but I do know people have been banned from tournaments, leagues and even a game's official ladders so there's that
On the context of the gravity of what he did. Well, this one is so subjective that I'd rather not say anything other than fuck him.
With that said, even if he is genuinely repentant of his actions. You don't exactly allow him back because only he knows how genuine he is and there is no way to prove himself without participating in tournaments means that basically, he had virtually locked himself out of StarCraft. IMO putting aside raw emotion, he can stream BW but never participate in tournaments.
I think it’s fine for him to play the game again but he shouldn’t be making money from it. You can’t shit on the game like he did, particularly from his position of privilege as one of the all time greats, and expect to profit from BW again.
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it's been 10 years. can you people just let the man stream? god knows BW needs new players..
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I'd say no. I loved the game. He was my favorite player. I would sneak out of my bed and muffle the old 56K modem to watch him play at ungodly hour.
He broke my gamer heart and he broke the life of A LOT of others people.
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I think that he can play, enjoy and even stream the game, but making profession or money from BW is not acceptable for someone who hurt the industry as much. Match fixing did effect the whole e-Sports industry and individual lives as the industry was hurt. People lost jobs becouse of him. He was young, but not a kid. He should have already known what is right and what is wrong by the age of 23.
If he would reclaim his bonjwa status, attract a lot of fans (and sponsors) to pay back, then his previous actions can be forgotten.
Like Stork says, if Savior is truly sincere with his apology, then he should also accept that he can't make more money out of BW.
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There is something that doesn't dissapear from my mind, how the internet culture work on Korea? Is that different from West?
What would ever stopped him from being a nameless anonymous without a cam and a non-monetized afreeca profile from the start? It never went through his head that simply showing up as Ma Jae Yoon sAviOr with cam and all wouldn't upset the community?
He is that convinced that he did nothing wrong or simply is that dumb?
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KeSPA was a shitty organization, really, they had 14,15,16 years old working over time for years under the excuse of a brilliant future if they practiced enough... for me sAviOr is a hero.
fuck kespa, long live the maestro!
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On December 18 2017 04:15 XenOsky- wrote:
KeSPA was a shitty organization, really, they had 14,15,16 years old working over time for years under the excuse of a brilliant future if they practiced enough... for me sAviOr is a hero.
fuck kespa, long live the maestro!
Was that not true? Flash was one of these young people you refer to. What your post doesn't say is only a few become great, but everyone has the same chance. That's because it's a highly competitive environment.
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On December 17 2017 23:56 Starecat wrote:
There is something that doesn't dissapear from my mind, how the internet culture work on Korea? Is that different from West?
What would ever stopped him from being a nameless anonymous without a cam and a non-monetized afreeca profile from the start? It never went through his head that simply showing up as Ma Jae Yoon sAviOr with cam and all wouldn't upset the community?
He is that convinced that he did nothing wrong or simply is that dumb?
He wants to cash in for the 3rd time. He already streamed before but quit because it wasn't as successful as he thought in long run (unlikable personality, heavy chat moderation, low skill level)
But each time he returns, he would get lots of donation as it generates controversy and interest rather than completely fading away if he had continued streaming
He isn t some noble guy trying to stream his gameplay. He's Fucking cashing in once again. He's done this before....
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Wow so nothing prevented him from playing anonymously on the beginning?
Wow i was kinda on the fence, but man this is fucked up.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Afreeca should do what is good for afreeca, which, if the korean comments in this thread are any indication, is not let him stream. The guy can be a prick and asshole and whatnot for all I care, but I'm 1) no korean 2) no businessman. I would be curious to watch him play. I would most certainly not support him financially. I've never been a fan of his, despite his successes. Matchfixing made him a nobody to me afterwards.
That being said, some of the comments here are really overboard. Savior commited an ACTUAL crime, he got the punishment as prescribed by law, he got kicked out from the scene that thrust him into stardom, he probably ran off of money recently. In terms of pure punishment, that should be enough in my book, legally and ethically. I don't know how many of you guys, koreans and foreigners, who hate Savior with a passion, are progamers... did he rob you? Did he deprive you of a chance to shine? Did he destroy the BW scene so you couldn't profit from it? If you did, then there is some justification. If you're as much a viewer and fan of the game as I am, meaning not a progamer, then you should calm the fck down. You're making a disgrace of yourselves in a strictly moral sense, because you're just on the hate wagon, comfortably speaking from a non-professional point of view.
I say let the market decide. If Afreeca deem him risky, they won't let him stream, which is the wisest way to look at the problem anyway. If they actually let him stream, the viewers would decide if he's any good at being a streamer. He's probably a joke compared to most current pros - and I'm not even talking about guys like Soulkey or Effort or Larva, I mean Miso, for example - so if he's smart, he'll find a way to earn a living besides being on a competitive level. If he's not, he'll just fade away.
And if he poisons the community through his stream, sewing discord and intrigue, well, Afreeca can decide on this as well - and the progaming scene.
But us? We're nobodies.
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
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United States3047 Posts
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On December 19 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform). In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
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On December 19 2017 03:47 TaardadAiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform). In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW. Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it. I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
Go watch "Fehér tenyér". 
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United States3047 Posts
On December 19 2017 03:47 TaardadAiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform). In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW. Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
If they don't base it on emotions, the decision is very simple.
Supporting Savior's stream + BW is going to give Afreeca platform very bad reps + will potentially (more like most likely) drive main sponsors away from future tournaments, including ASL. The money that they potentially lose (angered fans + bad rep + potential loss of sponsorship) severely outweighs the profit they can make from Savior's stream (via processing fee).
In the end, emotions do play part of the decision on Afreeca because its really up to the viewers + sponsors on how they feel about the overall situation. Discussing how they feel and why someone's right/wrong on their views on this matter is completely different subject, and it starts with understanding how the Korean culture works (even before discussing the incident itself).
I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together.
While I agree, the problem with approaching the discussion in this format is that you're trying to apply your own beliefs in a place where they may have completely different standards.
And the only reason why I went back to mention this is because many people here are trying to decide without knowing the context of where this is happening, what the culture is (especially when it comes to someone committing a crime), and how it all comes together and affects the scene IN KOREA.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On December 19 2017 04:32 noname_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 03:47 TaardadAiel wrote:On December 19 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform). In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW. Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it. I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon. Go watch "Fehér tenyér".
Well, we all know of stuff like that, Whiplash (in recent times) and such.
I work with cardiac surgeons. I know of surgeons who smack their assistants across the hands with surgical tools. They've been known to throw said tools at people in the operating room. Let's just assume the stake of not learning properly is a bit higher in surgery than in a video game. There's still no justification for that kind of stuff. Not to mention the results of such ... teaching/motivating techniques are not necessarily better.
I am willing to accept that if the hit person has decided on not pursuing outright legal action against the offender, that should be the end of it, since it's largely personal. It encourages such behaviour, though.
I'll edit to avoid a double post:
That's what I mean from making a decision without figuring their own emotional stance on the subject into the equation. Nobody wants to prevent Savior from installing the game or playing anonymously on ladder. The issue is whether or not he should be allowed to make money out of it. Let the people who deal with money decide on this. They know better than you or I (though I agree that it would be a bad decision on Afreeca's part) if they should pursue any sort of relations with a person so reviled. I even think Afreeca could make profit on DENYING Savior the right to stream BW, if the public supports such a decision so much. I have no clue how big the savior (residual) fanbase in Korea is.
And yeah, Korean culture does play a big part in the discussion, but the decision is going to be made with the Korean way of thinking in mind anyway - our foreign opinion factors little to none. So please, don't advertise some sort of acceptable degree of violence to the foreign audience. It has nothing to do with the foreign stance on how badly Savior screwed up.
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United States3047 Posts
On December 19 2017 04:52 TaardadAiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 04:32 noname_ wrote:On December 19 2017 03:47 TaardadAiel wrote:On December 19 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote:
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform). In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW. Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it. I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon. Go watch "Fehér tenyér". Well, we all know of stuff like that, Whiplash (in recent times) and such. I work with cardiac surgeons. I know of surgeons who smack their assistants across the hands with surgical tools. They've been known to throw said tools at people in the operating room. Let's just assume the stake of not learning properly is a bit higher in surgery than in a video game. There's still no justification for that kind of stuff. Not to mention the results of such ... teaching/motivating techniques are not necessarily better. I am willing to accept that if the hit person has decided on not pursuing outright legal action against the offender, that should be the end of it, since it's largely personal. It encourages such behaviour, though. I'll edit to avoid a double post: That's what I mean from making a decision without figuring their own emotional stance on the subject into the equation. Nobody wants to prevent Savior from installing the game or playing anonymously on ladder. The issue is whether or not he should be allowed to make money out of it. Let the people who deal with money decide on this. They know better than you or I (though I agree that it would be a bad decision on Afreeca's part) if they should pursue any sort of relations with a person so reviled. I even think Afreeca could make profit on DENYING Savior the right to stream BW, if the public supports such a decision so much. I have no clue how big the savior (residual) fanbase in Korea is. And yeah, Korean culture does play a big part in the discussion, but the decision is going to be made with the Korean way of thinking in mind anyway - our foreign opinion factors little to none. So please, don't advertise some sort of acceptable degree of violence to the foreign audience. It has nothing to do with the foreign stance on how badly Savior screwed up.
Just to make it clear: I only brought up the 'violence' part of the quote not because I wanted to advertise it or to promote it or anything (I could go into another talk about this and how terrible it was for me attending elementary school there in late 90s), I merely brought it up because the approach (and the comparison you made using it) is dangerous for the foreigners who are trying to understand why Savior is banned in Korea. I was suggesting that people should go out and understand the Korean culture and how they usually deal with people who are put into spotlight after doing bad things before trying to make suggestions on how Afreeca should handle the issue.
The biggest problem I have atm (and why I'm incredibly frustrated) is that people are trying to apply their own thoughts and ideology and suggesting what Afreeca should do. It's like going into help out a community in other country, but forcing your own beliefs and methods to help others which may go against the local's beliefs (usually due to culture/religious reasons).
But in the end, you're right. It's up to each individual media platform to decide what's right and what's wrong. People have the power to say otherwise through viewerships, but ultimately the decision to allow streaming is up to the platforms.
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He could make his life easier if he picked up a different skill and stayed away from StarCraft. There is a world outside SC. I understand he's jealous of the $$ Flash and JD are raking in, and I'm not even saying that's wrong (I don't understand people saying "all he wants is money" like that's a sin, and I don't think it devalues his apology as much as they do), but this is kinda something he has to accept he screwed up. I see comparisons in this thread to assault or other weird stuff, and although there were some victims of his behaviour, I don't think it is remotely comparable to assault, I don't think his star power makes his crime more heinous, and I sincerely don't believe he single handedly ruined StarCraft. Every sport in history has it's cheaters and thieves and controversies, and it's not cause StarCraft is so young that it couldn't take that heat, cause every other sport had crazy bullshit in their growing years, including people literally being killed in baseball before they realised maybe they should wear helmets, and a long long history of brain damaged athletes in any number of highly violent sports. A couple of fixed matches is not something any sport escapes from.
What I want to say though, is that people's feelings were hurt, people were betrayed. People can forgive Savior without wanting to see him in StarCraft again. We decide that as individuals, and obviously some people never felt particularly hurt even vicariously. I would state that I did feel betrayed, but I would probably watch his matches in a tournament. I believe his style would be interesting and I'd like to see if it still looks good.
The crime Savior committed is most comparable to a partner doing something unscrupulous. You never have to be in a relationship with such a person again. It's a social crime. But everyone has done something shitty to someone else at some point in their lives, people they had a position of power over, or just people who trusted them, and although that specific relationship is sometimes irreparably damaged, it doesn't mean new relationships are forever tainted. So I say it would be easier for him to do that outside of StarCraft, but if he can make new relationships with new fans who didn't feel that affected by what he did in the past, then that's probably actually okay. There is not nearly enough evidence to say he is a sociopath or that he will betray people again and again. That some players didn't like him when he was a pro is not really proof of that either.
I guess what I'm saying is after so many years when StarCraft already feels past its best-by date I just don't care. I would not be upset by a decision either way by Afreeca, to allow him to stream StarCraft or to ban him. I would not be upset to see him banned from tournaments, or allowed to participate. He was fun to watch play. He did not uphold the pride of a professional. Clearly I'd admire unmarred players more, but if he could make a broadcast more interesting to watch... It kinda doesn't matter. I don't idolize these players as much as the people who want to donate while they watch them eat. StarCraft is weird enough right now I could see Savior coming back being not that big of a deal for most people.
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Koreans take this shit very seriously which is why that even in their daily lives and politics, people step down and walk away unlike the rest of the world where corruption is a normal thing. I completely understand if the guy is never allowed to do it again. Matchfixing not only ruins whatever sport/esport, it teaches children to start life like a bunch of douchebags. It's really a big deal that esports at least try to remain as clean as possible if it ever wants to be legitimized as a real sport.
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Voted Yes. It's been what ? +10 years by now.
Should he be allowed to compete again probably not.
Should be allowed to stream? I feel he has done his "time" and should be allowed to.
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EPT
