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On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft.
You are comparing two completely different things.
Sometimes, a murderer is forgiven because it is his or her life what is at stake; nobody owns his or her life. On the other hand, StarCraft and streaming platforms such as AfreecaTV are proprietary entities; in some sense, they reserve the right to ban anyone from using their services.
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On December 16 2017 13:30 EsX_Raptor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft. You are comparing two completely different things. Sometimes, a murderer is forgiven because it is his or her life what is at stake; nobody owns his or her life. On the other hand, StarCraft and streaming platforms such as AfreecaTV are proprietary entities; in some sense, they reserve the right to ban anyone from using their services.
I don't understand your argument, and you don't seem to understand mine.
If people can forgive each other for the taking of someone's life... then it should be possible to forgive someone for cheating in a video game.
How much punishment is enough for the world to say he has paid for past mistakes?
And murder is forgiven not because of some copyright TM on life... It's forgiven because people understand how much of an empty gesture vengeance is, and how it poisons the soul. Also, because the nature of compassion is opposite. There is no amount of pain someone can deliver onto another person to resolve the suffering they internally feel. Inflicting pain is a positive feedback cycle of suffering.
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On December 16 2017 13:24 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft. When his apology comes off as sincere and not with the not so subtle innuendo of "I just wanna make money off of you dumbasses again" You don't forgive someone because n years have passed, you forgive because he repents what he did wrong and is ready to live a life unrelated to all of his past.
That argument makes sense to me.
But can you truly know his motivation (if he has not explicitly stated it)?
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On December 16 2017 08:08 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 06:54 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
saviors largely insulated himself to just his obsessed fanbase and milked them and broodwar for a living
let the man find some honest living instead of allowing the scum to milk his fans again broodwar is a thing you can milk? huh... his fans are unable to think for themselves and we must protect them from being milked? huh... the more you know
the larger point i was making was replying to the inquiry as to whether other matchfixers have had to face a similar kind of social repercussion to their involvement with the incident;
savior notably has not faced these repurcussions, despite being A: the senior accomplished player and rolemodel to the younger players, and B: the one who helped coordinate the match fixing and the distribution of cash and instructions.
and he's avoided it by avoiding the military and avoiding employment by making money off the game he stepped all over. it's not even making money it's accepting it from fans who still devotedly follow him despite all his horrendous actions. despite whatever you might of their right to do so, you cannot disagree that it's a pretty sick way to continue your existence after being condemned by the community you poisoned.
10 years of milking his fans and showing no remorse for cheating and dragging younger players into an illegal betting ring. that isn't 10 years of punishment, it's 10 years of being a little fucker who clearly doesn't give a shit. if you want a real apology go read hwasin's interview, who actually had to live with it and accept the consequences of what he had done. www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/426507-hwasin-apologizes-for-match-fixingShow nested quote +Q: Then you moved to the military service, it wasn't that painful in the army right?
A: Actually quite the opposite. In boot camp since everyone was around the same age, everybody was aware of the matchfixing. Not only the seniors but even the officers would interrogate me and discipline me. Ofcourse there were some people who liked me as a person, they were the ones who got me through it. I tried to see it as that my life in the military was as difficult as everyone else's, and spent alot of time thinking. Why did I do this, I asked myself a thousand times "why". Show nested quote +Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult. Show nested quote +Q: After retiring, what did you do?
A: I did everything after retiring. I even went to the hiring boards in labour markets, I did manual labour, worked in delivery, and laboured in some net-cafes, I also tried to work in a coffee shop as a cashier and made coffee. I really want to open a coffee shop, one where you make the coffee completely manually, even if it's very small. In that process to find a direction I met an executive in a company, and started working as a secretary. Now I try to learn from many different types of people that I meet. savior has done none of that kind of contemplation or had to live with the consequences of his actions. as a bonus you get to read a little bit of savior offering hwasin the money and instructions on how to throw the game.
i see a lot of people who want to forgive; i'm telling you that there are plenty of people who deserve that forgiveness and have strived to change and better themselves in spite of what they had done
savior has not changed and has not tried to change, nor has he pleaded for forgiveness until now that he's broke.
he was not naive or stupid; his involvement was not a mistake or a series of mistakes, it was a series of despicable actions that involved dragging other younger players into his schemes to make money from broodwar.
don't let him make money from broodwar again.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
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No professional sport exists without doping (in general).
People are so ignorant, that things like a positive doping test still gets into the news. I think people have this false impression that most of the atheltes don`t use anything because they`re weren`t caught by a pee-test. But on the contrary. 
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On December 16 2017 06:33 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 06:30 DSK wrote:
This is probably a controversial post, but I also say he should be able to stream, even BW. Competition should not be allowed.
He will get one hell of a shitstorm for a reception, like he has likely had to deal with IRL and on his previous attempts to stream. He'll get heckled like no tomorrow and so he should.
The viewers can decide for themselves if they want to support him or not. I don't think many would if he was insincere as better informed posters than I are correct. You do realize this isn't his first time streaming? This is his 3rd cash in
Yes, jinjin, I stated such in my post. So why is this the third time of trying? If the South Korean posters such as yourself (or perhaps based in Korea at this time) are correct in that sAviOr is insincere and dishonest, and generally an individual with no good qualities, this will reflect in the community's reactions to his stream and content.
Perhaps there is something on the Afreeca platform that I am not aware of that will make him a ton of money despite his status and that is why you are against my perspective? However, I can appreciate the fact that some believe he would further impact the BW scene which has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years.
By all means, feel free to correct me if I am missing anything.
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I will watch his streams if they will be good.
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I have a question for koreans here or those who have followed savior post scandal.
One of the reasons people bring up why they can't forgive savior is that he is an asshole and is just being opportunistic not that he needs money. And that he this is insincere and that he wouldn't do this if he was earning better. Any truth to this? Proof?
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On December 15 2017 00:52 Peeano wrote:
Listen to Iris, Stork and Best. Savior destroyed a great thing and the guy is still bullshitting, cuz he only cares about ez money.
Come on, even some prisoners get a second chance. Savior didn't kill anyone, let him have a second chance. Stop living in the stone age.
On December 16 2017 17:00 BigFan wrote:
I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
I'm sure BW would have been on decline despite Savior. You have SC2, CS: GO, Overwatch, LoL and many other games now. A single person can't destroy BW. It's just a coincidence. I'm not even a fan of Savior.
The reality is SC2 and BW aren't great at exploiting the current "e-sports" scene commercially. Yet, I still play those games from time to time.
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On December 16 2017 22:10 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 00:52 Peeano wrote:
Listen to Iris, Stork and Best. Savior destroyed a great thing and the guy is still bullshitting, cuz he only cares about ez money. Come on, even some prisoners get a second chance. Savior didn't kill anyone, let him have a second chance. Stop living in the stone age.
Savior does get a second chance. Just not with BW. A convicted child abuser gets a second chance after serving time, but will never be allowed again to be a school teacher, know what Im saying?
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It would set a really bad precedent if Savior was allowed to come back in any significant way (anything that lets him make money off the scene). The threat of match fixing isn't going away, it's been around as long as professional sports. Maybe it was rooted out from BW for a while BECAUSE HE GOT CAUGHT, but if the scene keeps growing it's only a matter of time before someone tries it again. It's probably even easier these days, with cryptocurrencies making it easier to anonymously transfer cash without even being seen together with the person paying bribes. Letting Savior come back would send a message that it's not that bad, even if you're caught you'll be forgiven if you beg enough.
Imagine being some up-and-coming young BW player these days. You can work your ass off and maybe win some tiny prize money. You can't even really win the top prizes, since you'll inevitably lose to Flash or one of the other top players, but *maybe* you can win like $500 and get a few fans. Or you can take a bribe, make 10 times as much money with no risk and way less effort. I doubt there's any serious effort to police them and stop it from happening. It's mostly just community norms making people believe that it's wrong. And that's a very fragile thing.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Z0wVst5.jpg)
"We'll see each other on Monday, 9PM" [Korea time]
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The Maestro actually used to be my favourite zerg back in the klazart/diggity days of youtube casts.
Can't say how honest he is, I'm sure he regrets it, but everybody does once they're caught.
Letting him stream should be fine though, it's not like he'll enter tournaments, but maybe he can inspire others to or coach them.
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I'm sorry but what do you mean going back to streaming? Did he ever stop? Last stream video I saw was from 2015 & I'm pretty sure he kept playing after that.
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I was around during the Savior incident. It was really bad.
My first thought while reading this thread was that after so many years we can forgive Savior. I still believe that. Please let me explain.
On the one hand my opinion on criminals is that they deserve a second chance in life, mostly because I believe in freedom above almost everything else. I think it's important to rehabilitate people as efficiently as possible. Exclusion (like prison) is only productive to a certain extent. At some point it becomes too much. I believe most criminals should be released as soon as possible. Very few criminals should never be released.
That being said, context matters. Letting Savior stream BW is a specific question, not just anything. Is this in particular a good idea or not?
I myself am trying to look at it from a practical point of view: How likely is it that Savior will mess up again in some way?
Because essentially I think that's the only question we need to answer. Whatever else happens only concerns him. Can he deal with the expectable repercussions or not? That's on him to decide.
My answer to the question of what risk Savior poses to BW is: I can't read his mind. Some people here are talking about his sincerity. I'm sorry, but you can't know whether he's sincere or not unless you have specific knowledge about his intent. It's very, very hard to prove intent.
Also, I don't see a significant chance of him messing up again considering the consequences this would have on his life. No man in his right mind would do this to himself twice for so little gain comparatively. Do you disagree?
But there's more to consider. How will welcoming Savior back affect other would-be criminals? I don't really know. What has happened to him so far is pretty common knowledge. Anyone new to the scene who's never heard and will never hear of Savior won't be affected by the decision either way, so this is only for those who know some BW history. To me this means it's not a concern.
So, all in all I think letting Savior come back and stream BW seems acceptable, I actually think it's pretty clearly the best decision. In my opinion forgiveness is a strength that should be practiced in the right cases. I think this is one of them. Whether I'm right or not, I don't know. I can't predict the future.
Whether Savior should also be allowed back into tournaments, I think that should be left entirely to the organizers. If they don't want to have him play, they shouldn't be forced to, or pressured into it. In that case and only in that case I'd be ok with Savior even making a full comeback.
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To be honest, the testimonies from his ex-teammates and colleagues of his behavior during his heyday to recent events helps to to reinforce the fact that he should not be allowed to broadcast any content related to Brood War or E-sports in general. Beyond that, one can forgive him and he is free to do what he fancies on stream.
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Japan11792 Posts
After giving this some thought, here's my opinion (after some contextualization.)
On the context of players being banned from sports for cheating, sAviOr cannot be seen in the same light. He didn't cheat, he went further, as he was supposedly (was it ever really substantially proven?) a central figure in facilitating the match-fixing activities.
On the context of crime, well, this one is fairly easy; he didn't exactly commit murder or whatever, so I feel this is out of context.
On the fact that he - hailed as one of, if not the greatest player to grace the game decided to abuse the weight of his name and influence in the pro circuit is very wrong.
On the context of other similar cases in other esports; I don't really know much but I do know people have been banned from tournaments, leagues and even a game's official ladders so there's that
On the context of the gravity of what he did. Well, this one is so subjective that I'd rather not say anything other than fuck him.
With that said, even if he is genuinely repentant of his actions. You don't exactly allow him back because only he knows how genuine he is and there is no way to prove himself without participating in tournaments means that basically, he had virtually locked himself out of StarCraft. IMO putting aside raw emotion, he can stream BW but never participate in tournaments.
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Really find it difficult to believe that people here are supporting Savior's return. He played the biggest role in bringing down Brood War as an e-sport. He's responsible for the ruin of so many people whose livelihood is attached to the game. Relatively speaking, this is way bigger than Michael Vick, Pete Rose, or Lance Armstrong. Those guys committed terrible acts, but none can be credited with killing the sport altogether. I understand that people want to see Savior play, myself included, but that is not nearly a good enough reason to have him return.
It's not about forgiveness, or how the scene will be affected by his return. Savior needs to remain an example to ensure nothing like this happens again.
I would wish Savior luck in pursuing whatever direction he decides to take, but he should NEVER be allowed near Brood War again on any level.
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On December 16 2017 17:00 BigFan wrote:
I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
Strongly agree with this. I really don't see why he has to stream (read: monetize) BW. If he wants to play BW, fine, if he wants to stream other games, also fine.
On a sidenote, if TL were to ever feature his stream I would probably be done posting here. It's fine if some people here want to forgive him, but helping him make living of the game he tried his hardest to ruin is a whole 'nother level of absurdity...
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EPT
