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On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote:
If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
He has a big fan base.. why wouldn't he want to stream?
And.. this is also a public forum.. obviously people are going to discuss it.
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On December 15 2017 20:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 19:29 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On December 15 2017 19:12 Waxangel wrote:
the apology rings hollow
he's had so much time to apologize, and yet he picks this particular time because he thinks he can benefit financially
selfish to the end lets be honest here,u can pick any time and it will never be the right one. And lets also be honest here how much savior will win anyway,as many koreans pointed he is not the shit anymore,he is not even good in starcraft.We re in 2018 and we have a guy that did a terrible damage many years ago begging forgiveness on his knees,hell i read an interview that savior played terran vs gorush cuz the msl wasnt getting many viewers and cuz his terran was actually decent,thats how he got his zvt to the next lvl,but the original story changed over the years,and the bw forums warriors will link articles that are made to sell and link tv shows that are made to sell and we are still attacking this human like he is a serial killer,yeah he has a shitty personality blah blah blah,cuz berseker a guy that takes any oportunity or best or wathever are now making videos on youtube to clickbait said so,honestly this is very sad. there is a human on his knees that apologizes,maybe he needs to do the walk of shame like Cersei ? you're being overdramatic eon, its not like he can't do other things in life, its just that his easiest way of making money happens to be the one thing he isn't allowed to do, with good reason. I mean for real I think the way it is right now you could destroy him at the game.
blind maybe im wrong but for me an easy way of making money doesnt include getting insulted by countless people and with the need of kneeing and saying sorry,We are in 2018 already,we dont need to act like our ancesters.
is not about me winning savior,tell me if you wouldnt be happy to watch chojja yellow boxer etc etc,savior is the only zerg bonjwa.and for the good and for the bad he is BW history,sadly he is the yin and the yang we all agree with that,but not allowing him to stream starcraft for starcraft fans ? ASL official competitions etc he is banned forever;i remember watching savior in the terror starleague and winning it vs anytime in the final,is was amazing;and that was many years past his prime.anyway i dont think this thread will change much,is not up to us to decide,the only that will change is some koreans journals talking about this and using articles to get money.
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On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote:
If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
He has been playing quiet a bit, he never really stopped tbh.
I say given that it has been such a long time and that I believe in second chances, let the man play the game that he loves. I don't know if Koreans will ever allow him to compete again, but for all I care he can sure as hell stream whatever he wants. And honestly every time you see a Zerg play, chances are it's based on what savior brought to the race.
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On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote:
If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
So much this. I was going to post something very similar but Bonyth said it in a great way, so I don't have as much to add.
We can discuss the matters here but we do so from our side of the sea and based on values we developed as a result of our atmosphere. Savior's fate should be decided by the community from which he came and whose rules he violated and whom he hurt most directly. People pushing their morality onto the situation in saying he should be forgiven need to realize that your moral codex isn't somehow superior just because you are taking what you subjectively perceive to be the "high road" and most likely you can't grasp the situation in its entirety because of the cultural differences. As someone said earlier in the thread, think about what country the people who accept his apology and deny his apology are largely from. This is basic anthropological ethics.
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The OP poll is kinda messed up. It doesnt capture the feelings of the public.
I suggest:
Poll: Should Savior be allowed to stream BW?No. Forgiven but face the consequences (no exposure/profit) (23) 43% Yes. Forgiven and second chance. (19) 35% No. And not forvgiven. He destroyed BW! (12) 22% 54 total votes Your vote: Should Savior be allowed to stream BW? (Vote): Yes. Forgiven and second chance.
(Vote): No. Forgiven but face the consequences (no exposure/profit)
(Vote): No. And not forvgiven. He destroyed BW!
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Maybe 1 more option:
Poll: Savior streaming BW on AfreecaNo. Forgive or not, it will affect negatively on the current Afreeca BW scene (7) 100% 7 total votes Your vote: Savior streaming BW on Afreeca (Vote): No. Forgive or not, it will affect negatively on the current Afreeca BW scene
On December 15 2017 04:57 RCCar wrote:
-> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft?
8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt.
As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy.
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I guess this isn't going anywhere, just like the Larva topic. Everyone has opinions and shared them already, obviously two big groups at conflict (and a moderate group between). In the end it's up to Afreeca and the Korean scene to resolve this matter. One thing we all can't deny though is that these scandalous topics create a lot of fuzz around SC:R and that (atleast to me) is a good thing. Where do we want this game to go? In a few years most recent progamers are gone for military service, who is going to fill the void? Eventually the level of play will also drop. BW is bound to be declining in the next years, and to me it is better to have some star power to fill the void. Even if it means it is a controversial player like savior. Look into other sports and you will see that cheating or doping stars will only get a temporary ban.
But that's only considering competition. Who in hell would think it's okay to forbid some convicted sports star to make videos / stream the sport he once was good at? This is actually what you guys are advocating for. This guy is a free man and has served his punishment. You are trying to limit his personal freedom justified only with your hatred. It's okay to hate the guy, just don't watch his stream.
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And I agree about the additional option.
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On December 15 2017 23:54 CoL_DarkstaR wrote:
I guess this isn't going anywhere, just like the Larva topic. Everyone has opinions and shared them already, obviously two big groups at conflict (and a moderate group between). In the end it's up to Afreeca and the Korean scene to resolve this matter. One thing we all can't deny though is that these scandalous topics create a lot of fuzz around SC:R and that (atleast to me) is a good thing. Where do we want this game to go? In a few years most recent progamers are gone for military service, who is going to fill the void? Eventually the level of play will also drop. BW is bound to be declining in the next years, and to me it is better to have some star power to fill the void. Even if it means it is a controversial player like savior. Look into other sports and you will see that cheating or doping stars will only get a temporary ban.
But that's only considering competition. Who in hell would think it's okay to forbid some convicted sports star to make videos / stream the sport he once was good at? This is actually what you guys are advocating for. This guy is a free man and has served his punishment. You are trying to limit his personal freedom justified only with your hatred. It's okay to hate the guy, just don't watch his stream.
The PRIVILEGE of streaming on Afreeca and making money from the game he helped damage is not a "personal freedom" or right. Afreeca and all other streaming companies have the absolute right to revoke this privilege. Doing so in respect to the Korean community is culturally sensitive of the audience and probably for the best of Brood War. If he loves Brood War he can play but don't try to slither back into the spotlight just because you haven't started a career elsewhere.
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He's going to find a way to stream if he really wants.. and he will always have fans so... pretty much out of anyone's hands. All anyone can do is either not support him... or make it harder for him to stream.
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the poll is missing the option "pls close this thread"
its painful both for those who grew being fans of Savior and had their hearts broken and for those who suffered the consequences. Nothing good comes out from opening old wounds.
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Saying he shouldn't be allowed to stream is too controlling. Whether you hate him or forgive him or whatever, it should be up to the viewers to decide whether or not he can successfully stream. Feedback is already built into the platform. If there are enough people that want him to stream so that he gets lots of viewers and donations, then so be it, obviously enough of the community forgives him and wants him to stream. If not, then I guess the community still hates him to the point that he can't be successful with BW again.
By trying to ban him from streaming people are effectively forcing their opinions of Savior on others, which I hope most of us can agree is wrong.
Also to be clear I'm not a Savior fanboy. I say fuck him, but again, who am I to tell someone else they shouldn't be able to watch him?
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my gut feeling is that this is just so he can make a living off of BW again, which he does not deserve after all the money he removed from the scene.
ethics aside, I personally would still watch him stream BW for entertainment sake (unless he sucks)
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Retribution and forgiveness are both aspects of justice. It's hard to support forgiveness, though, when the reaction of so many is "lol like you've never committed felony fraud and conspiracy before".
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If sAviOr were making good money elsewhere, I wonder if he would be doing this.
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Netherlands5927 Posts
Savior is one of the main reasons why a well established platform was destroyed and he did nothing to help rebuild it. Now he wants to cash in on this new rebuilt platform where only the top ex-pros manage to make a living. Are you fucking joking? Even if his apology is sincere - which it clearly isn't - he doesn't deserve to make money of BW. Most definitely not via Afreeca. It's a huge insult to all the people's careers he helped destroy and many of its fans!
Savior should take a good example of others involved in the matchfixing scandal like Hwasin. All those guys, except for wife beater Luxury seem to at least have decency. (Gee I wonder why I don't see any of them streaming BW.)
Savior threw away his privilege to make money with BW for good, that's the stance of many - if not all - ex-pros.
Why would you even argue that? It's very easy to understand.
When it comes to making money, he has a million other ways to do it. They may just not be the easiest way to get rich, but that's his own fault. Of course he is free to play BW if he loves it so much.
I'm not impressed by Savior's copy/paste on Light's story about his mom spending 'his earnings' either.
Fuck Savior. And whoever supports him making any more money with BW is being foolish.
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On December 16 2017 01:21 Peeano wrote:
Savior is one of the main reasons why a well established platform was destroyed and he did nothing to help rebuild it. Now he wants to cash in on this new rebuilt platform where only the top ex-pros manage to make a living. Are you fucking joking? Even if his apology is sincere - which it clearly isn't - he doesn't deserve to make money of BW. Most definitely not via Afreeca. It's a huge insult to all the people's careers he helped destroy and many of its fans!
Savior should take a good example of others involved in the matchfixing scandal like Hwasin. All those guys, except for wife beater Luxury seem to at least have decency. (Gee I wonder why I don't see any of them streaming BW.)
Savior threw away his privilege to make money with BW for good, that's the stance of many - if not all - ex-pros.
Why would you even argue that? It's very easy to understand.
When it comes to making money, he has a million other ways to do it. They may just not be the easiest way to get rich, but that's his own fault. Of course he is free to play BW if he loves it so much.
I'm not impressed by Savior's copy/paste on Light's story about his mom spending 'his earnings' either.
Fuck Savior. And whoever supports him making any more money with BW is being foolish.
you are being foolish if you think Afreeca is about BW,do u even remember how all these ex-pros use to blame afreeca streamers ? + i Heard before that koreans dont like afreeca in general or afreeca streamers.and dont fool yourself.The only people that are getting big benefits from afreeca are the big names.as i said before im not even sure savior with his actual bw skill and his said shitty personality will gain something from afreeca.afreeca is based in donations from viewers.
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On December 15 2017 21:01 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 18:59 Lucumo wrote:On December 15 2017 18:39 Arrian wrote:
There's no justification for letting him not stream other than bitterness and hate. Maybe read the thread and educate yourself then? Your ignorance doesn't make your statement any less stupid. Excuse me, but I was around much earlier than you. I know the story well, and I have read the thread. I know why people don't like him, and obviously when I say there's no reason to not let him stream other than bitterness and hate I mean is that whatever justifications people offer, their firm belief that he is an opportunisitic douche is not sufficient grounds to deny him the right to profit from streaming. News flash: there are lots and lots of people who profit from streaming or used to profit from streaming that are opportunisitic douches. I get that savior should never ever play in a tournament again. I completely agree with that. But it's just streaming, for goodness' sake...
Around where? Registered on one of the English BW forums that is TL? And it's not like the date even matters, considering I finally registered on a special date. In the same useless fashion I could say that I have 5000+ posts in the BW section, much more than you.
Anyway, if you have actually read the thread, then you must have brushed the completely rational reasons such as community perception and sponsor interests aside, either out of ignorance or something else. Whether people like him or not is a completely different matter.
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I actually find Boxer getting dominated and emasculated by his 'wife' a lot more apology-needing than Savior. Boxer actually let his fans down by letting a woman make decisions for him.
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EPT
