• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:25
CEST 14:25
KST 21:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed17Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 666 users

Hypothetical Balance Patch - Page 4

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 11 12 13 Next All
LilClinkin
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Australia667 Posts
January 21 2015 03:04 GMT
#61
I think queens should have a spell which causes flying units to fall to the ground. Like a snare net.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
January 21 2015 03:05 GMT
#62
On January 21 2015 11:14 iknowFiRE wrote:
for the balance changes if there really must be, id prefer to only do very small things with least number changing although they might have significant impact, for example if scout AtG dmg is bad, make it have 2x8 (as the name implys they have dual photon blasters, why dont they do 2x dmg like firebats/zealots), or firebat/ghost what would they be like without concussive dmg, nuke not cost supply or [need] separate building, infested terran actualy buildable with larva, hive tech? i dont know, maybe able to morph greater spire at lair, but still need hive for guardian/devourer (since theyre both not that good)

Most of those are not 'very small' changes.


User was warned for being hilarious
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
January 21 2015 03:06 GMT
#63
Broodwar is balanced at a point, where it is not "perfectly balance" like some shout out fast, but at a point where you cannot balance it out any more, if you arent a K.I.

It is as far as a game with 3 races and humand developer can get to balance and is still the nr1 game, when any rts developer looks for rts balance, but it is not the perfect balance of a perfect univerese. You cant achive it.

Any patch would do more harm, not because he could bring up one match up to a more balanced state, but you cannot balance one match up without hurting another. Broodwar found the best middleway.

But people in this forum either tend to "how can you? broodwar is 100% perfect for ever and ever!!!!" or they will give you balance advice which would hurt cpt. pickards head very much.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2268 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 03:24:53
January 21 2015 03:22 GMT
#64
On January 21 2015 11:30 vOdToasT wrote:
I disagree with both of your statements. Neither Z nor P dominates the other in the lategame. Whichever race gets the better economy dominates. It's that simple.


Zerg destroys Protoss lategame, defiler/crackling is way too cost-efficient vs protoss army.

and for zerg is really easy to deny a 4th or 5th expansion while expanding himself.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
January 21 2015 03:34 GMT
#65
I don't see why you would want to nerf bio play in TvZ. While I like mech in PvT, I didn't like the trend over the last couple years where most TvZ seemed to make the mech transition. Fortunately it seems this latest SSL has seen a resurgence of bio TvZ, maybe due to maps. But I would never want to see bio TvZ nerfed, certainly not the irradiation.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Lightswarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada966 Posts
January 21 2015 03:41 GMT
#66
I just want to see better graphics and smoother AI. Then again thats probably what StarBow is for.
Team[AoV]
LilClinkin
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Australia667 Posts
January 21 2015 03:44 GMT
#67
Is 50:50 balance really something to strive for? I don't think so. What is important is that all possible builds/strategies have a theoretical counter. This is how balance is achieved. Whether the player has the skills and foresight in order to take the necessary steps to counter any strategy thrown at them is up to their individual skill.

Given this perspective, I think Broodwar is a balanced game, and as such, no changes are required. The better player should win more often than not, and Broodwar exemplifies this to a very high degree (more-so than SC2 for instance).

Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
January 21 2015 04:00 GMT
#68
On January 21 2015 12:44 LilClinkin wrote:
Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance.

By that logic, SC vanilla has been 5 different games already, and Brood War, 3, thanks to Bliz's own balance patches:

SC 1.00
SC 1.02
SC/BW 1.04
SC/BW 1.05
SC/BW 1.08 and later.

For myself, I don't think that's so. Only two of the balance patches were comprehensive (1.04, 1.08), and even then, I wouldn't say either 'created a new game'. It was still very much BW, just improved.

Now BW vs SC vanilla, that's different. BW does feel like a different animal, not completely, but enough.

User was warned for being hilarious
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 04:12:51
January 21 2015 04:06 GMT
#69
On January 21 2015 12:34 Falling wrote:
I don't see why you would want to nerf bio play in TvZ.

Medics always made TvZ feel a little too rigged in T's favor ('til mass Lair units), like it was a unit the designers never quite got entirely right.

As in, "Ehh, best we can do, we gotta ship in time for Xmas". I used to work in the vid game industry, this does happen.

But how you could do Medic healing just right is a toughie.
User was warned for being hilarious
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
January 21 2015 04:08 GMT
#70
On January 21 2015 11:49 Probemicro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 11:43 L_Master wrote:
Even players like Bisu I've watched lose numerous games when he elects for passive play


Bisu never does passive play in PvZ, even when taking bases and without a main army he always actively controls his sairs/dt/shuttle and look for opportunities to do damage. bisu is like one of the few toss that push his multitasking to the highest and try to retain their sair count even going into the lategame.


Passive as in not attempting to break the zerg. Harassing with corsairs is nice, but I've seen games where all Bisu really does is some light sair harass, taking bases, and then expands while pressuring at both nats...but it's token pressure. He doesn't have the army to commit and never really does. Just comes in, drops a storm or two, then backs away.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
January 21 2015 04:10 GMT
#71
On January 21 2015 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
Make comsats upgradable to nuclear silo+comsat combo. Ghosts can be created at academy. All upgrades for ghost still require SF+addon.

edit: Just going to ignore the god awful suggestions of the OP LOLOL.

Hey man, I'm totally cool with you not thinking my suggestions are good. But if so, could you point out what do you think is wrong about them and what you think would be better changes? Thanks bud.

On January 21 2015 12:44 LilClinkin wrote:
Is 50:50 balance really something to strive for? I don't think so. What is important is that all possible builds/strategies have a theoretical counter. This is how balance is achieved. Whether the player has the skills and foresight in order to take the necessary steps to counter any strategy thrown at them is up to their individual skill.

Given this perspective, I think Broodwar is a balanced game, and as such, no changes are required. The better player should win more often than not, and Broodwar exemplifies this to a very high degree (more-so than SC2 for instance).

Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance.

I think everyone would agree that a 50:50 balance is important. Here's an example about your point. Say Protoss build A counters Zerg build A at a 60:40 ratio. It loses to Zerg build B at a 80:20 ratio. Protoss build B counters Zerg build B at a 60:40 ratio. It loses to Zerg build A at an 80:20 ratio. Both builds counter another build and have their own counters, but this hypothetical game isn't balanced. Yes, the better player wins most of the time, but there are still racial imbalances. Maybe I'm totally wrong about TvP, but it seems that there are still kinks that can be ironed out in ZvP and TvZ from my perspective.

And I'm not entirely sold on the idea that changes are bad. It's like saying Brood War before 1.08 and after are different games. They're not, they're just balanced differently. And if balance can be improved without altering strategy too much, then I don't see why you wouldn't.

On January 21 2015 12:34 Falling wrote:
I don't see why you would want to nerf bio play in TvZ. While I like mech in PvT, I didn't like the trend over the last couple years where most TvZ seemed to make the mech transition. Fortunately it seems this latest SSL has seen a resurgence of bio TvZ, maybe due to maps. But I would never want to see bio TvZ nerfed, certainly not the irradiation.

I totally agree that I think Bio TvZ is one of the most exciting parts about the game and I would definitely not want to see it go away. Do you have any ideas on what could be nerfed for Terran or buffed for Zerg instead?
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
January 21 2015 04:20 GMT
#72
On January 21 2015 12:41 Lightswarm wrote:
I just want to see better graphics and smoother AI.

BW in 1920x1080 or 1920x1200. Drool. :

User was warned for being hilarious
Probemicro
Profile Joined February 2014
3708 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 04:29:41
January 21 2015 04:23 GMT
#73
On January 21 2015 13:08 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 11:49 Probemicro wrote:
On January 21 2015 11:43 L_Master wrote:
Even players like Bisu I've watched lose numerous games when he elects for passive play


Bisu never does passive play in PvZ, even when taking bases and without a main army he always actively controls his sairs/dt/shuttle and look for opportunities to do damage. bisu is like one of the few toss that push his multitasking to the highest and try to retain their sair count even going into the lategame.


Passive as in not attempting to break the zerg. Harassing with corsairs is nice, but I've seen games where all Bisu really does is some light sair harass, taking bases, and then expands while pressuring at both nats...but it's token pressure. He doesn't have the army to commit and never really does. Just comes in, drops a storm or two, then backs away.


its because of these little things that add up that makes the zerg feel really pressured at multiple fronts (losing overlords,defense line at nat and 4th, dt/reaverdrops),

allowing bisu to shift the tempo of the game to his favour and become free to take his 4th and 5th unopposed and become further ahead. unlike a typical toss who usually struggle to grab additional bases from z pressure, when passivity on the toss part allow the zerg to gain tempo and wrest control of the game.

he has no need to take the risk to break the zerg defense early when he can just extend his advantage this way.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
January 21 2015 04:53 GMT
#74
On January 21 2015 13:23 Probemicro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 13:08 L_Master wrote:
On January 21 2015 11:49 Probemicro wrote:
On January 21 2015 11:43 L_Master wrote:
Even players like Bisu I've watched lose numerous games when he elects for passive play


Bisu never does passive play in PvZ, even when taking bases and without a main army he always actively controls his sairs/dt/shuttle and look for opportunities to do damage. bisu is like one of the few toss that push his multitasking to the highest and try to retain their sair count even going into the lategame.


Passive as in not attempting to break the zerg. Harassing with corsairs is nice, but I've seen games where all Bisu really does is some light sair harass, taking bases, and then expands while pressuring at both nats...but it's token pressure. He doesn't have the army to commit and never really does. Just comes in, drops a storm or two, then backs away.


its because of these little things that add up that makes the zerg feel really pressured at multiple fronts (losing overlords,defense line at nat and 4th, dt/reaverdrops),

allowing bisu to shift the tempo of the game to his favour and become free to take his 4th and 5th unopposed and become further ahead. unlike a typical toss who usually struggle to grab additional bases from z pressure, when passivity on the toss part allow the zerg to gain tempo and wrest control of the game.

he has no need to take the risk to break the zerg defense early when he can just extend his advantage this way.


Yea but he loses frequently even when he gets those 4th/5th no problem, and this is the best PvZer of all the time. I remember one time he was practicing versus larva and literally lost 5 or 6 straight trying to play that style, and each time he was getting 4+ bases against larvas own 4.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Probemicro
Profile Joined February 2014
3708 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 05:07:27
January 21 2015 05:06 GMT
#75
larva practiced a shitton against bisu before and has a nice general ZvP winrate (62% in TLPD), hes actually the best z to go against bisu atm ^^
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2268 Posts
January 21 2015 05:09 GMT
#76
when you put a Protoss and a Zerg player of equal skill and on a balanced 50% map, zerg is going to win most of the time, due to the nature of the match up, its an uphill battle for the protoss player at the moment zerg secures 4 gas, on a decent drone count.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
January 21 2015 05:16 GMT
#77
In my opinion, balance is not a concrete 50:50 on the stat sheet. I mean sure it keeps the outcome of games surprising but really it's not the supposed to be the game who should decide the winner, but the player him/herself. If the player succumbs to this balancing, the human element which the reason why it is esports is just not present.

I was going to write some changes to Terran because I find my own theories in line with Bisu's (see lemmata's post) but then I thought that its really hard to change units/buildings/spell etc without affecting all the matchups.

On a fun note. I really want bunker to 40 secs and up vulture cost because 75 min vults can kill 200 min 200 gas ultras and goons even without any unit (other than mines) present. ^^
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19346 Posts
January 21 2015 05:18 GMT
#78
Smoother Graphics yes. Better AI? No way. Part of the game. Might as well add multiple building select and remove the 12 unit selection limit
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
Mirabel_
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1768 Posts
January 21 2015 05:33 GMT
#79
Despite my lengthy suggestions earlier I'd like to agree that no matter how bad the overall game balance is (and it IS far worse than it could easily be made) the top priority regarding future patches to BW is, like voddy said, to fix all the weird detrimental shit like the sprite limit and rallypoints also affecting units' spawn locations.
get stronger play longer
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-21 06:00:08
January 21 2015 05:52 GMT
#80
On January 21 2015 14:16 c3rberUs wrote:
In my opinion, balance is not a concrete 50:50 on the stat sheet. I mean sure it keeps the outcome of games surprising but really it's not the supposed to be the game who should decide the winner, but the player him/herself. If the player succumbs to this balancing, the human element which the reason why it is esports is just not present.

I was going to write some changes to Terran because I find my own theories in line with Bisu's (see lemmata's post) but then I thought that its really hard to change units/buildings/spell etc without affecting all the matchups.


But wouldn't balancing the game let the players decide who won more than the game? I mean, if we make it he game imbalanced e so that Marines do 20 damage per shot, then in that case, the players are deciding the outcome of the game. When things are even and every race has an even shot at winning, then players can best demonstrate their own skill.

It really is difficult to balance without affecting all three matches but that's part of why it's fun to try and hypothesize what changes could be good.

On January 21 2015 08:56 prech wrote:
Cool TLPD stats

The numbers are pretty fascinating. It's pretty surprising how much of a tough time zerg are having against Terran.

On January 21 2015 14:33 Mirabel_ wrote:
Despite my lengthy suggestions earlier I'd like to agree that no matter how bad the overall game balance is (and it IS far worse than it could easily be made) the top priority regarding future patches to BW is, like voddy said, to fix all the weird detrimental shit like the sprite limit and rallypoints also affecting units' spawn locations.

I know there's been a fair amount of starcraft mods in the past. I wonder if it's possible to make one without the sprite limit. The rally points thing seems a bit too complex but there could be a way to work more sprites into the engine.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 11 12 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Epic.LAN
12:00
Epic.LAN 45 Playoffs Stage
Liquipedia
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Sea Duckling Open #136
CranKy Ducklings107
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 524
StarCraft: Brood War
Barracks 3624
actioN 2170
Larva 1236
Hyuk 1048
Mini 995
Stork 567
Soma 505
firebathero 438
TY 267
Pusan 252
[ Show more ]
Last 244
Dewaltoss 144
Hyun 113
JulyZerg 86
ToSsGirL 81
Backho 68
Bonyth 48
Light 23
GoRush 17
Icarus 10
SilentControl 7
Dota 2
Gorgc7870
singsing2843
qojqva842
XcaliburYe285
Fuzer 179
canceldota66
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K18
sgares1
Super Smash Bros
Westballz32
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor182
Other Games
B2W.Neo1567
DeMusliM395
Lowko186
Trikslyr24
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2681
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH258
• sitaska43
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis1328
• Jankos1255
Upcoming Events
CSO Contender
4h 36m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 36m
Online Event
1d 3h
Esports World Cup
2 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
3 days
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.