EPTHypothetical Balance Patch - Page 4
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LilClinkin
Australia667 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 11:14 iknowFiRE wrote: for the balance changes if there really must be, id prefer to only do very small things with least number changing although they might have significant impact, for example if scout AtG dmg is bad, make it have 2x8 (as the name implys they have dual photon blasters, why dont they do 2x dmg like firebats/zealots), or firebat/ghost what would they be like without concussive dmg, nuke not cost supply or [need] separate building, infested terran actualy buildable with larva, hive tech? i dont know, maybe able to morph greater spire at lair, but still need hive for guardian/devourer (since theyre both not that good) Most of those are not 'very small' changes.  | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
It is as far as a game with 3 races and humand developer can get to balance and is still the nr1 game, when any rts developer looks for rts balance, but it is not the perfect balance of a perfect univerese. You cant achive it. Any patch would do more harm, not because he could bring up one match up to a more balanced state, but you cannot balance one match up without hurting another. Broodwar found the best middleway. But people in this forum either tend to "how can you? broodwar is 100% perfect for ever and ever!!!!" or they will give you balance advice which would hurt cpt. pickards head very much. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
On January 21 2015 11:30 vOdToasT wrote: I disagree with both of your statements. Neither Z nor P dominates the other in the lategame. Whichever race gets the better economy dominates. It's that simple. Zerg destroys Protoss lategame, defiler/crackling is way too cost-efficient vs protoss army. and for zerg is really easy to deny a 4th or 5th expansion while expanding himself. | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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LilClinkin
Australia667 Posts
Given this perspective, I think Broodwar is a balanced game, and as such, no changes are required. The better player should win more often than not, and Broodwar exemplifies this to a very high degree (more-so than SC2 for instance). Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 12:44 LilClinkin wrote: Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance. By that logic, SC vanilla has been 5 different games already, and Brood War, 3, thanks to Bliz's own balance patches: SC 1.00 SC 1.02 SC/BW 1.04 SC/BW 1.05 SC/BW 1.08 and later. For myself, I don't think that's so. Only two of the balance patches were comprehensive (1.04, 1.08), and even then, I wouldn't say either 'created a new game'. It was still very much BW, just improved.  Now BW vs SC vanilla, that's different. BW does feel like a different animal, not completely, but enough. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 12:34 Falling wrote: I don't see why you would want to nerf bio play in TvZ. Medics always made TvZ feel a little too rigged in T's favor ('til mass Lair units), like it was a unit the designers never quite got entirely right. As in, "Ehh, best we can do, we gotta ship in time for Xmas". I used to work in the vid game industry, this does happen. But how you could do Medic healing just right is a toughie. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 21 2015 11:49 Probemicro wrote: Bisu never does passive play in PvZ, even when taking bases and without a main army he always actively controls his sairs/dt/shuttle and look for opportunities to do damage. bisu is like one of the few toss that push his multitasking to the highest and try to retain their sair count even going into the lategame. Passive as in not attempting to break the zerg. Harassing with corsairs is nice, but I've seen games where all Bisu really does is some light sair harass, taking bases, and then expands while pressuring at both nats...but it's token pressure. He doesn't have the army to commit and never really does. Just comes in, drops a storm or two, then backs away. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 21 2015 08:49 BisuDagger wrote: Make comsats upgradable to nuclear silo+comsat combo. Ghosts can be created at academy. All upgrades for ghost still require SF+addon. edit: Just going to ignore the god awful suggestions of the OP LOLOL. Hey man, I'm totally cool with you not thinking my suggestions are good. But if so, could you point out what do you think is wrong about them and what you think would be better changes? Thanks bud. On January 21 2015 12:44 LilClinkin wrote: Is 50:50 balance really something to strive for? I don't think so. What is important is that all possible builds/strategies have a theoretical counter. This is how balance is achieved. Whether the player has the skills and foresight in order to take the necessary steps to counter any strategy thrown at them is up to their individual skill. Given this perspective, I think Broodwar is a balanced game, and as such, no changes are required. The better player should win more often than not, and Broodwar exemplifies this to a very high degree (more-so than SC2 for instance). Hypothetically, you could make changes. If the changes are 'good', a new balance would be achieved. Thus you would have created a different game, a Broodwar cousin which looks and plays the same in most regards, however has it's own nuanced balance. I think everyone would agree that a 50:50 balance is important. Here's an example about your point. Say Protoss build A counters Zerg build A at a 60:40 ratio. It loses to Zerg build B at a 80:20 ratio. Protoss build B counters Zerg build B at a 60:40 ratio. It loses to Zerg build A at an 80:20 ratio. Both builds counter another build and have their own counters, but this hypothetical game isn't balanced. Yes, the better player wins most of the time, but there are still racial imbalances. Maybe I'm totally wrong about TvP, but it seems that there are still kinks that can be ironed out in ZvP and TvZ from my perspective. And I'm not entirely sold on the idea that changes are bad. It's like saying Brood War before 1.08 and after are different games. They're not, they're just balanced differently. And if balance can be improved without altering strategy too much, then I don't see why you wouldn't. On January 21 2015 12:34 Falling wrote: I don't see why you would want to nerf bio play in TvZ. While I like mech in PvT, I didn't like the trend over the last couple years where most TvZ seemed to make the mech transition. Fortunately it seems this latest SSL has seen a resurgence of bio TvZ, maybe due to maps. But I would never want to see bio TvZ nerfed, certainly not the irradiation. I totally agree that I think Bio TvZ is one of the most exciting parts about the game and I would definitely not want to see it go away. Do you have any ideas on what could be nerfed for Terran or buffed for Zerg instead? | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 12:41 Lightswarm wrote: I just want to see better graphics and smoother AI. BW in 1920x1080 or 1920x1200. Drool.  : | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On January 21 2015 13:08 L_Master wrote: Passive as in not attempting to break the zerg. Harassing with corsairs is nice, but I've seen games where all Bisu really does is some light sair harass, taking bases, and then expands while pressuring at both nats...but it's token pressure. He doesn't have the army to commit and never really does. Just comes in, drops a storm or two, then backs away. its because of these little things that add up that makes the zerg feel really pressured at multiple fronts (losing overlords,defense line at nat and 4th, dt/reaverdrops), allowing bisu to shift the tempo of the game to his favour and become free to take his 4th and 5th unopposed and become further ahead. unlike a typical toss who usually struggle to grab additional bases from z pressure, when passivity on the toss part allow the zerg to gain tempo and wrest control of the game. he has no need to take the risk to break the zerg defense early when he can just extend his advantage this way. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 21 2015 13:23 Probemicro wrote: its because of these little things that add up that makes the zerg feel really pressured at multiple fronts (losing overlords,defense line at nat and 4th, dt/reaverdrops), allowing bisu to shift the tempo of the game to his favour and become free to take his 4th and 5th unopposed and become further ahead. unlike a typical toss who usually struggle to grab additional bases from z pressure, when passivity on the toss part allow the zerg to gain tempo and wrest control of the game. he has no need to take the risk to break the zerg defense early when he can just extend his advantage this way. Yea but he loses frequently even when he gets those 4th/5th no problem, and this is the best PvZer of all the time. I remember one time he was practicing versus larva and literally lost 5 or 6 straight trying to play that style, and each time he was getting 4+ bases against larvas own 4. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11834 Posts
I was going to write some changes to Terran because I find my own theories in line with Bisu's (see lemmata's post) but then I thought that its really hard to change units/buildings/spell etc without affecting all the matchups. On a fun note. I really want bunker to 40 secs and up vulture cost because 75 min vults can kill 200 min 200 gas ultras and goons even without any unit (other than mines) present. ^^ | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 21 2015 14:16 c3rberUs wrote: In my opinion, balance is not a concrete 50:50 on the stat sheet. I mean sure it keeps the outcome of games surprising but really it's not the supposed to be the game who should decide the winner, but the player him/herself. If the player succumbs to this balancing, the human element which the reason why it is esports is just not present. I was going to write some changes to Terran because I find my own theories in line with Bisu's (see lemmata's post) but then I thought that its really hard to change units/buildings/spell etc without affecting all the matchups. But wouldn't balancing the game let the players decide who won more than the game? I mean, if we make it he game imbalanced e so that Marines do 20 damage per shot, then in that case, the players are deciding the outcome of the game. When things are even and every race has an even shot at winning, then players can best demonstrate their own skill. It really is difficult to balance without affecting all three matches but that's part of why it's fun to try and hypothesize what changes could be good. On January 21 2015 08:56 prech wrote: Cool TLPD stats The numbers are pretty fascinating. It's pretty surprising how much of a tough time zerg are having against Terran. On January 21 2015 14:33 Mirabel_ wrote: Despite my lengthy suggestions earlier I'd like to agree that no matter how bad the overall game balance is (and it IS far worse than it could easily be made) the top priority regarding future patches to BW is, like voddy said, to fix all the weird detrimental shit like the sprite limit and rallypoints also affecting units' spawn locations. I know there's been a fair amount of starcraft mods in the past. I wonder if it's possible to make one without the sprite limit. The rally points thing seems a bit too complex but there could be a way to work more sprites into the engine. | ||
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