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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On February 21 2015 13:42 alexyoung wrote: I think its obvious scouts need to be fixed, so buff those or reduce their costs This old chestnut.... Air maps are already extinct due to zergs weakness vs toss air.Why buff toss air further? Lets talk about buffing guardian & devourer first. | ||
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GreenWillow
50 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On February 21 2015 23:40 GreenWillow wrote: why zerg air is weaker than toss air? corsair | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
On February 21 2015 23:40 GreenWillow wrote: why zerg air is weaker than toss air? in what stage of the game? | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On February 21 2015 20:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: This old chestnut.... Air maps are already extinct due to zergs weakness vs toss air.Why buff toss air further? Lets talk about buffing guardian & devourer first. I thought the Z prob on island maps (post-1.04) is that they can't get to 2nd and 3rd gas fast enough?  Agree with you that guards and devs could use a bigger role. | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
Buffing spawn broodling (somehow) would be interesting. Scout: if it starts with the speed upgrade, it might become usable. | ||
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alexyoung
United States4 Posts
On February 21 2015 20:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: This old chestnut.... Air maps are already extinct due to zergs weakness vs toss air.Why buff toss air further? Lets talk about buffing guardian & devourer first. Devourers should def be buffed. Also the new Lair tech ground unit could maybe hit air units | ||
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Captainrooster
United States2 Posts
On January 21 2015 09:27 Mirabel_ wrote: Starcraft was not designed or balanced to be played at a full 24 fps on today's resource-rich maps. It was designed for 18 fps on sparse islands and other shitty maps. Today, given how far the best players in the world are from the level of tactical depth nearer the theoretical management skillcap, it's apparent that Brood War is one of the very few games you could make an argument for being "too fast" despite the long length of matches (it's an RTS, so who's complaining, lol) If you want to redesign the game for its current speed by increasing the reward relative to its difficulty for underused abilities, be my guest. In my opinion you should leave the three matchups alone and go for the mirrors, since the matchups are helped by maps and apparently even out entirely as player skill approaches infinity. (FJB had a reverse counter triangle going!) Of course I read every post in this thread, backwards, before I saw this gem. Now for actual core balance suggestions: If you want to fix ZvZ without harming the other matchups, give Spore Colonies a 0 range splash effect, large enough to only affect ultratight stacks. This opens pandora's box on ZvZ (since Zerg has the ability to hardcounter every unit combination it can throw at itself) without severely affecting the early mutaling dynamic. Chamber builds, which, by the way, can be countered, would as a result lead to more long hivetech ZvZs. That idea I got from someone in the TLBW IRC, and I can't recall who. Everyone seems to agree with this general sentiment. It's the sc2 balance, but hey, it'd be better in BW. I think a simple damage difference would work well though. 40 concussive from a spore colony? It'd destroy scourge and mutas, better deter corsairs (since shields take full damage), and interceptors would get vaporized. Sunken does 40, why not the spore? That said- ensnare is crap. Right now it's the anti-stimpack. Mech doesn't suffer attack speed reduction. And it's really supposed to be an anti T spell that has more uses in vP and vZ. I'd vote to just make it Entangle, ie freeze the movement of units it affects while not adjusting their attack patterns. Curiously, this could be a harassment spell, slowing down scv mining. Some people have remarked that Spawn Brokdling could be improved somehow... :/. Maybe it could spawn a larva with the spell in addition to the broodlings, so you can grow stuff like drones from ursadons on islands or an ultra next to a siege tank. it seems like blizzard wanted banelings in BW. DTs found their way into the game, and the campaign ends with 50 damage infested terrans. I dunno what the damage should be, but a Greater Spawning Pool would be neat. It'd be cool to have a Greater Den as well, instead of morph upgrades. Banelings would help against bio. I really feel like this is a vacuum for Zerg too. With the lurker they got a seige unit but they still lack a vulture/DT companion- ie something that makes lings, rines, and drones go POP before you can blink. And it'd be in ZvZ. It might need deal concussive damage and have a splash as big as the firebat splash. Maybe guards should have splash as big as firebats too. I have no idea how to open up TvT without reducing the game speed enough to facilitate lockdown/optical flare in 200/200. The best idea I can think of is to have a new secondary effect of the Science Vessel's EMP cause an 8-second stun on grounded mechanical/robotic units (compare to Disruption Web). The sprite limit bug being fixed would definitely be amazing in this matchup since Valkyries have a strong niche in the making to be mixed in against mass wraith, and that bug really doesn't affect the Valk's strong role in TvZ. Again, we are on the same page. If EMP did the effects of Ensnare to mechanical and robotic units (why not air?) on top of the shield and battery drain, it not only would have better flavor, have use against toss outside Arbiters, but it'd also be strategically more compelling in wraith+ fights. Everyone knows that wraiths are not very viable outside Mirrors. And scouts even less viable. These units are supposed to destroy BCs, which no one ever makes. These units would be way cooler if they had balanced attacks, like the muta. Say the wraith didn't have missiles, but hit ground and air units for 10-15 explosive damage- and scouts dealt 15-20 explosive damage... They'd be tank killers; they wouldn't be especially awesome at mineral harass or killing marines. They'd be a bit better against Hydras. Valkyries would be slightly more valuable in TvT and with the EMP+Ensnare spell, wraiths would still destroy BCs. I wouldn't know what to do with ghosts though. PvP opens up by itself if both players go safe, but if you want to see more stargate builds I think Apial Sensors needs to be reworked. Scouts should have that 10 sight by default, and the Apial Sensors upgrade at the Fleet Beacon should instead grant them the ability to detect stealthed units, permitting them to be used for observer hunts while already being decent at chasing shuttles and arbiters. It would be just enough to give the Scout a lategame niche against Zerg and Terran, providing mobile detection for corsairs and an alternative (but expensive) means to clear minefields and put more pressure on the T to maintain map control. I like this. Robo=detector/cloaking; archives=cloaking/harass; stargate=detector/harass. Imo, permanent detection would be OP, but if the scout had an ability like Comsat Scan, but smaller AOE and ya know like a range of 8 or whatever. Plasma Flare. Or Tactical Relay. Or whatever ya wanna call it. Envision!  Maybe the archon could have shield regeneration and a mana bar like the Shield battery. It wouldn't be much but give the unit some flexibility in most match ups. Hallucinate would be better suited on the observer than Templar imo. Lastly- my crazy idea. Spell asters have "one of" spells (that you can upgrade to "three of"- maybe). So like queens start off with a one-shot parasite. After using the spell once, which takes no mana, that unit can't use it anymore. Like vultures running out of spider mines. Likewise, medics could start with one optic flare, and temps start with a one-shot hallucination or something Either way, with everyone suggesting new mana costs for most spells, I think it's obvious that certain spell casters could be tweaked to make them more fun without screwing overall balance. I'd love to see a badass Scout come into Terrans base, start ripping apart a tank, only to get blinded by a medic with a one-shot optic flare- and then said scout occasionally casts a micro scan to keep... Scouting. Oh yer still useless but so much fun. | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
On February 22 2015 06:33 alexyoung wrote: Devourers should def be buffed. Also the new Lair tech ground unit could maybe hit air units why should devouver be buffed? that would only make pvz harder than it already is, and you don't need devs in zvt. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Piste
6174 Posts
On February 22 2015 18:26 reminisce12 wrote: devourers could use a speed buff to mutas, they should help u win late game muta on muta battles, and help u combat sair carrier late game. if you want devourers into muta vs muta battle, that would mean upgrading into hive first. (queen's nest -> hive -> greater spire -> morphing mutas into devourers. vs sairs and carriers i consider devourers being fast enough since they can fight corsairs easily during fight, and they're already faster than carriers. vs sair+carrier plague is needed of course. edit: after giving few more thoughts about this, maybe speed buff would not be bad idea, but as a counterbalance their damage should be decreased so that late game corsairs would not lose too much viablity in pvz. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
On February 23 2015 22:30 Piste wrote: if you want devourers into muta vs muta battle, that would mean upgrading into hive first. (queen's nest -> hive -> greater spire -> morphing mutas into devourers. vs sairs and carriers i consider devourers being fast enough since they can fight corsairs easily during fight, and they're already faster than carriers. vs sair+carrier plague is needed of course. edit: after giving few more thoughts about this, maybe speed buff would not be bad idea, but as a counterbalance their damage should be decreased so that late game corsairs would not lose too much viablity in pvz. when it comes to devourer dmg, they have one the worst dps if not the worst dps of all air units.. they are only good for letting mutas do extra amounts of dmg. The problem is that mutas get wiped out by sairs b4 they can get close. In really late game zvp, if toss has a large amount of sairs with carriers, its almost impossible to do anything as zerg, u can apply ur triple rainbow colour and hope for the best, but at the same time toss has spells like maelstorm combo. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On February 22 2015 04:38 29 fps wrote: People are saying that storm needs to be buffed? It's already the second most powerful spell (not far behind #1 is dark swarm). Storms kill hydras and tanks easily. Buffing spawn broodling (somehow) would be interesting. Scout: if it starts with the speed upgrade, it might become usable. Speed upgrade and 50 mineral cost deduction at the very least. | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
On February 23 2015 23:40 reminisce12 wrote: when it comes to devourer dmg, they have one the worst dps if not the worst dps of all air units.. they are only good for letting mutas do extra amounts of dmg. The problem is that mutas get wiped out by sairs b4 they can get close. In really late game zvp, if toss has a large amount of sairs with carriers, its almost impossible to do anything as zerg, u can apply ur triple rainbow colour and hope for the best, but at the same time toss has spells like maelstorm combo. I do not agree with you. In ground maps, if toss goes for mass air, zerg has a timing window to overwhelm his expansions. getting enough carriers to kill anything in pvz is quite a work. meanwhile zerg can just mass expand to every single free expansion on the map. after that swarm+plague+hydra+devouver combo works pretty well vs slow ass carriers. keep killing the interceptors like in tvp vs mass carriers, and the toss will eventually dry out. snipe a carrier only when you know you can. I see a problem only in air maps, but imo balancing those would require tech three changes. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On February 22 2015 15:43 Captainrooster wrote: Again, we are on the same page. If EMP did the effects of Ensnare to mechanical and robotic units (why not air?) on top of the shield and battery drain, it not only would have better flavor, have use against toss outside Arbiters, but it'd also be strategically more compelling in wraith+ fights. Everyone knows that wraiths are not very viable outside Mirrors. And scouts even less viable. These units are supposed to destroy BCs, which no one ever makes. These units would be way cooler if they had balanced attacks, like the muta. Say the wraith didn't have missiles, but hit ground and air units for 10-15 explosive damage- and scouts dealt 15-20 explosive damage... They'd be tank killers; they wouldn't be especially awesome at mineral harass or killing marines. They'd be a bit better against Hydras. Valkyries would be slightly more valuable in TvT and with the EMP+Ensnare spell, wraiths would still destroy BCs. EMP's already a hard counter against Archons as well. As I said before wraith is perfectly fine against Zerg in hands of good player who can micro (Leta, Fantasy, Flash) and is the primary reason Guardians are risky options. I have no Idea, how you want use EMP+wriths+Ensnare against battlecruisers. Terrans dont use ensnare. With mutalisks already ruining ZvZ buffing wriths against hydralisks is awfull idea. Oh, and infested terrans are 500 damage, not 50. | ||
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raviy
Australia207 Posts
With the view that any change should not be game-breaking, and should act to make games more interesting to play/watch: 1. That 0 range spore splash idea is fantastic. 2. Ghost lockdown range +1. Ghost cloaking upgrade reduced to 50/50. 3. Hallucination upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Energy cost reduced to 75. 4. Dark Archon starting energy buffed to 100. Mind Control energy cost reduced to 130. 5. Ensnare upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Research time reduced to 60. 6. Optic flare upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Research time reduced to 60. 7. Remove or substantially increase sprite limit. 8. Nuclear silos to store 2 nukes each. If someone more knowledgeable than myself can tell me if any of the above would be game-breaking, please share. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On February 25 2015 16:44 raviy wrote: It's incredible that this thread is still going after a month, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. With the view that any change should not be game-breaking, and should act to make games more interesting to play/watch: 1. That 0 range spore splash idea is fantastic. 2. Ghost lockdown range +1. Ghost cloaking upgrade reduced to 50/50. 3. Hallucination upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Energy cost reduced to 75. 4. Dark Archon starting energy buffed to 100. Mind Control energy cost reduced to 130. 5. Ensnare upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Research time reduced to 60. 6. Optic flare upgrade cost reduced to 50/50. Research time reduced to 60. 7. Remove or substantially increase sprite limit. 8. Nuclear silos to store 2 nukes each. If someone more knowledgeable than myself can tell me if any of the above would be game-breaking, please share. FYI, if you look at all the BW upgrades and spells, none cost less than 100/100, and no research time is less than 80. Seems to be a minimum for Bliz. Also, all Bliz spell mana costs seem to be in multiples of 25. They wouldn't have a spell that costs 130 mana, or 135, or whatever. Emphatic agree on fixing the sprite limit. That was always a major 'WTF, Bliz?!?' for me. The 0 range spore colony splash idea may not be so fantastic. One thing you'd probably want in any hypothetical balance patch would be for scouts and wraiths to be more effective harassers, like they were before they got nerfed in 1.04. So if they got fixed, you'd see more stacks of scouts and wraiths (in other matchups than TvT), and spore colonies with splash would utterly hose them, and not just mutas.  I'm not saying spores don't need some help, but rather, the right fix. Their problem isn't damage type, their Normal damage is definitely the way to go, since explosive would be weak vs mutas, and concussive would be VERY weak vs scouts/wraiths/valks/BCs/shuttles/dropships. They certainly have enough hp, they're tough to take out/are tough enough when attacked directly. The problem obviously is that they just don't output enough damage per second to interfere with muta harass as much as they should (mutas that just go straight for the worker line and ignore the spore fire). For instance, two missile turrets cost less than 1 spore, yet output 1/3 more damage/second vs small units (mutas) than 1 spore does. And that's WITH the turrets doing only half damage vs small (explosive dmg); vs large air the dmg output difference is really enormous. So, you'd want to up spores' damage output, while also realizing that you can't do it TOO much, otherwise you're hosing wraith/scouts/dropships/shuttles, etc again. You'd also want to reduce spore colonies' hp by a proportionate amount, so that they're no more difficult to take out overall than before/aren't too strong in a stand-up fight, as opposed to harassment deterrence. You could do something slightly heavy-handed and up their damage to 20, while reducing hp to 300. You now kill a muta in 7 hits rather than 9 (regeneration), and the spore colony is no stronger overall if directly attacked. Good so far. Unfortunately, you also now kill a wraith in 6 hits instead of 8. Oh, and scouts would go down in 13 hits instead of 17. So, bleah. Better way to do it might be to up damage to 18, and cut hp to 350 (technically 333 health for spores to be no stronger, but close enough). Mutas would still die in 7 hits instead of 9. Wraiths die in 7 as well, which is only one less than it is now, and could be more than made up for by having a more effective ground attack for them. Scouts would take 15 hits (shield regeneration), so pretty much the same deal for them. It seems doable. A lot of time it just comes down to 'numbers-fu', i.e. finding the right math rather than doing something kooky/major like making spores' do concussive, with all the unintended bad consequences that come along with. PS to Reminicse (who posted below) - Spores and turrets both take up the same 2x2 matrix 'box size' (so you can't place turrets with greater density/in a smaller space than spores), it's just that the graphic for spores is considerably larger within that same box size. PPS – Another balance idea: Medics only being able to heal up to 75% of damage inflicted. Would keep T infantry more honest vs Z, and stim wouldn't be something you could do infinitely without consequences. And, finally... VERY BAD call on locking the thread. A good discussion was going.  | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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