EPTOn January 21 2015 06:01 GGzerG wrote:
BroodWar is balanced Perfectly.
BroodWar is balanced Perfectly.
That's impossible. Best you can realistically say is it's 'balanced enough'.
Hypothetical Balance Patch - Page 2
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
That's impossible. Best you can realistically say is it's 'balanced enough'. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 05:47 QuickStriker wrote: So I think this is completely unnecessary and my stance is against such a patch as any balance patch may potential ruin the fine wine we have today. Why so worried? Another official balance patch is highly unlikely, BW hasn't had one for almost 14 years now. Only scenario I can think is pretty far-fetched... a hypothetical 'BroodWar: 20th Anniversary Edition' or Bnet 2.0 Edition or somesuch, released after LoTV... AND Blizzard decides to put some effort into further refining BW balance for it. Vegas odds against *both* those things happening are pretty huge. Makes me lol when ppl worry about things that are incredibly unlikely. | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
Fuck win %'s, just make more units viable. Oh and make nukes more accessible. Make the silo a normal building that doesn't take up a spot on the command center and remove the damn supply cost for them. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:48 Espers wrote: there was always a slight T > Z > P imbalance in BW, I even remember Mondragon mentioning that. But there was (is) an even slighter P > T imbalance, so a player of any race can be successful if they're good at their race's "hard" matchup. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 05:16 HyralGambit wrote: Now time for Artosis/Thorin to explain everything to you: Anyone else watch the first 15-20 minutes of that and go, "Jebus H Christ, I'm glad I'm into BW and not SC2?". Probably not the intent of the vid. It's basically the same ol' "it'll be balanced by LoTV, really, it will, trust us" stuff, plus a lot of apologism for all the ways in which SC2 is not so gud.  Also disagree with him on his comment that you balance only taking into account the very top of the pro scene. Yeah, I get why that's Bliz's stance, but if you take a hypothetical RTS game (i.e. not BW or SC2), and had it perfectly, incredibly, immaculately balanced for the top .001% of players in the world, but also had it be an absolute steaming pile of crap balance-wise for the broad middle of regular players, who would really want to buy or play that game? The pro scene is awesome. But let's see pros buy up 11 million copies of a game (BW sales). Ain't gonna happen. The one thing that's true is that you can't balance for the bottom, 'cuz newbies will obviously do random, crazy, lame sh!t that no one can account or balance for, short of God himself. It'd be like trying to be a life coach for an active meth addict. It would break any game designer's mind who made the attempt. | ||
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oBlade
United States5299 Posts
But honestly I think the citizens of Aiur are too proud to accept any help like that. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 08:06 Bswhunter wrote: Buff / change the underused units, Scouts, ghosts, firebats, wraiths and maybe queens. Fuck win %'s, just make more units viable. The lonely, unused/underused units do make me sad. Every race has 2-4 units that are essentially benchwarmers. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On January 21 2015 08:19 [[Starlight]] wrote: The lonely, unused/underused units do make me sad. Every race has 2-4 units that are essentially benchwarmers. I think that's better than SC2 where terran basically has three units that is actually used | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
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LRM)INF3cted
Bulgaria242 Posts
On January 21 2015 08:19 [[Starlight]] wrote: The lonely, unused/underused units do make me sad. Every race has 2-4 units that are essentially benchwarmers. Let me check the unused units in BW: Terran - Ghosts = 1 unit Protoss - Scouts = 1 unit Zerg - 0 Total of 2 unused units. And to the subject i think most of the "core" units in BW are overpowered , imbalanced.The magic of this game is that , all this imbalancedness (wtf is there a word like this?) clashesh in to eachother , with all the imbaStorms , imbaTanks , imbaSwarm ,imbaradiiate , imbascarabs , imbastimmarines , imbacrackzerglings and let`s not forget imbamuta (i`m looking at Jaedong picture) , creating the most balance RPG game of all time.We actually manage to made from the chaos , order.So whoever you are whatever u from , remember u a playing BroodWar and u a fucking awesome. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19158 Posts
edit: Just going to ignore the god awful suggestions of the OP LOLOL. | ||
prech
United States2948 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:04 neobowman wrote: Now, I will come out and say I haven't been following the amateur scene since the last OSL, but I have been following the current season of KSL and SSL. I have been thinking about this idea of potential change for years. My thoughts and ideas may be outdated but I don't have access to current statistics in race trends so I have to go with what I have. If I'm wrong about the statistics, all you have to do is tell me. I'm not saying this game is bad. I love this game. I think it's amazing, I think the meta's constantly evolving and growing. I agree that outside factors are totally at play. But I don't think that's any reason to try to avoid talking about balance at all. Thanks for bringing up this hypothetical imbalance patch. I think it's a perfectly fine and fun topic to brain storm about  As far as post-KeSPA/SOSPA imbalance stats go, the easiest way is probably to look at their TLPD match-ups by map. The listing of the top five  most played maps are available on Liquipedia. Using Fighting Spirit as an example:Race Stats (leagues only):  vs  : 240-135 (64%) vs  : 175-175 (50%) vs: : 183-207 (47%) Race Stats (all cataloged games, including team leagues, invitationals and a few show matches): vs : 429-315 (58%) vs : 377-363 (51%) vs: : 363-374 (49%)And the second most played map of the era, Circuit Breaker, leagues only: vs : 91-53 (63%) vs : 84-56 (60%) vs : 70-94 (43%) And finally the third most played, Neo Electric Circuit, leagues only: vs : 68-51 (57%) vs : 68-49 (58%) vs : 69-59 (54%)Effectively, as neobowman and others have pointed out, the numbers point to a T > Z advantage on most maps, including these top three, such that Fighting Spirit is not balanced.. The ZvP and PvT advantages appear more nuanced depending on the map... At the same time, looking at the TLPD Elo rankings, the top echelon are filled with Terran players (five of the top seven players are , including the current #1), with a few Zerg, followed by all the Protoss, with Bisu the only Protoss in the top 10.I don't know how much of this is skewed by the generally weaker level of play in the current era, as some progamers have themselves mentioned, or lack of regimented training as that used in the KeSPA era, but presumably these factors affect the whole field, rather than one isolated race or another | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 21 2015 07:45 [[Starlight]] wrote: That's impossible. Best you can realistically say is it's 'balanced enough'. no asymmetrical game is perfectly balanced. However, Broodwar has proven over time and time that it is very well balanced. Perhaps as balanced as a game can get. If anything, Protoss seems to lack a slight bit at the very top level, but then again it might be determined by individual talent that we never had a Protoss Bonjwa or anything alike. Broodwar furtheron is balanced by the maps and that suffices. The time of the six dragons was an phase induced also by a mappool that was protoss friendly enough. | ||
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Tadah
Sweden120 Posts
So, to name a few problems I have with the game: 1. Ground carapace upgrade gives zerg coccons +1 armor for some strange reason. That feels iffy. 2. D-matrix "leaking" damage is not something I'm a fan of. I don't see any reason for why this should occur. 3. A zealot being able to survive a Yamato Gun blast. Yuck. 4. Scout ATG attack is equal to that of the Wraith? Nope. Make it 10. Then you would have a nice arithmetical progression in the ATG attack damages done by Wraiths, Mutas and Scouts - 8, 9 and 10, respectively. Thats some nice shit right there. 5. ZvZ could be made alot more interesting if Plauge did not affect Zerg units and if Spore Colonies were given 300 health and 2 armor (just as the Sunken Colonies) as well as a damage output of 25 normal damage with a cooldown of 22.5 instead of 15 (liquipedia values). One would of course have to buff Scourge HP to 30 instead of 25 in order for them not to be one-shoted by the Spore Colonies. This last change makes Spore Colonies more effective against Mutas, by killing them a bit faster and being more resilient against Zerglings. Hopefully this will lead to a signifiant increase in Hive ZvZ, where we would hopefully be spaired having to watch defilers spitting plagues everywere at all times. 6. I also don't like that Battlecruisers lose so comprehensively against Wraiths (when equal supply numbers of both units engage eachother). Therefore I propose giving Wraiths a 2x8(+2x1) attack instead of 1x20(+1x2) attack. Thereby letting one Battlecruiser barely win out against 3 Wraiths and live up to their percieved stature as the most intimidating (air-) units in the Terran arsenal, not to mention making lategame TvT more interesting (to me at least). There are about 100 or so other changes that I've thought about over the years, so these were just "off the top of my head" stuff. Opinions on wether or not they would completely- and obviously break the game altogether are of course welcome. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
But I do agree on some small subtle changes like perhaps slightly buffing the scout ground attack etc. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 21 2015 08:44 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Let me check the unused units in BW: Terran - Ghosts = 1 unit Protoss - Scouts = 1 unit Zerg - 0 Total of 2 unused units. I didn't say unused... I said unused/underused. By that standard, units we don't see that often (and pls don't cite the relatively rare exceptions that prove the rule): Terran: Ghosts, BCs (and some would say Valks in anything but TvZ, Wraiths in anything but TvT or Leta vs Z) Zerg: Queens, Infested Terrans, Devourers, Guardians Protoss: Scouts, Dark Archons So whoever you are whatever u from , remember u a playing BroodWar and u a fucking awesome. Well put. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
On January 21 2015 09:08 Tadah wrote: I definately think that the game could be made better for spectators and players alike if slight alterations were made to some units. The alterations which I have in mind are not geared towards creating a more balanced game though. For me, the issues that the game is riddled with are (with but a few exceptions) very minor aesthetical ones, if you could label them as such. With that said, I do however take balance and/or the net enjoyability of spectating/playing into account whenever I analyse whether a certain change should be implemented or not. So, to name a few problems I have with the game: 1. Ground carapace upgrade gives zerg coccons +1 armor for some strange reason. That feels iffy. 2. D-matrix "leaking" damage is not something I'm a fan of. I don't see any reason for why this should occur. 3. A zealot being able to survive a Yamato Gun blast. Yuck. 4. Scout ATG attack is equal to that of the Wraith? Nope. Make it 10. Then you would have a nice arithmetical progression in the ATG attack damages done by Wraiths, Mutas and Scouts - 8, 9 and 10, respectively. Thats some nice shit right there. 5. ZvZ could be made alot more interesting if Plauge did not affect Zerg units and if Spore Colonies were given 300 health and 2 armor (just as the Sunken Colonies) as well as a damage output of 25 normal damage with a cooldown of 22.5 instead of 15 (liquipedia values). One would of course have to buff Scourge HP to 30 instead of 25 in order for them not to be one-shoted by the Spore Colonies. This last change makes Spore Colonies more effective against Mutas, by killing them a bit faster and being more resilient against Zerglings. Hopefully this will lead to a signifiant increase in Hive ZvZ, where we would hopefully be spaired having to watch defilers spitting plagues everywere at all times. 6. I also don't like that Battlecruisers lose so comprehensively against Wraiths (when equal supply numbers of both units engage eachother). Therefore I propose giving Wraiths a 2x8(+2x1) attack instead of 1x20(+1x2) attack. Thereby letting one Battlecruiser barely win out against 3 Wraiths and live up to their percieved stature as the most intimidating (air-) units in the Terran arsenal, not to mention make lategame TvT more interesting (to me at least). There are about 100 or so other changes that I've thought about over the years, so these were just "off the top of my head" stuff. Opinions on wether or not they would completely- and obviously break the game altogether are of course welcome. 1. Im fine with the egg 2. I agree 3. agree, they should change it to non explosive 4.agree or even increase attack speed from 30 to 22 similar to goliath. 5.zvz is hard one.. coz of so many variables like muta stacking, weak spore attack and hydra attack being explosive, the matchup is what it is atm 6.this one I disagree. Although I did consider buffing BC base attack to 30. IMO 1 BC should never win vs 3 wraiths simply coz BCs is both an anti air and anti ground unit, it has the versatility that a wraith does not possess. Wraith are mainly used for anti air combat and some light ground harass, only in large groups are they anti ground, but not as cost effect as BCs. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:59 QuickStriker wrote: Not to be disrespectful or offend you but let me give you another quick food for thought to take in from my own perspective: Not mentioning any other particular/specific game outside of SC BW but in a general POV, every time there is a "balance patch" or "gameplay" changes in the game, who benefits the most, who benefits the least? Who becomes the winners and losers? The answer is whoever can adapt to new changes, exploit the new changes and lead the new changes. So what about the rest of people who can't adapt as well as Player 1, or stuck in a limbo of this new change, or find themselves in a whole different position than before (ie. one of the better players before change but not anymore due to factors like balance change or unable to adapt to new settings)? Their answers will be "the game isn't what it used to be", "lack/lost of interest", "unfair", "retirement". This may very well be minority or majority but you cannot call the game SC BW 1.16.1 anymore, some will say you cannot even call it the same game anymore. Sure there may be more people welcomed by whatever new set of changes are but there's always a consequence, a pro/con, and those who will be affected by it. What if a balance patch end up being (or even partially) a reason that this/that progamer we know and love quit/retire? What if that turns into a domino factor where the active player base is reduced to 70%, 50%, 25% or even 10%? There's some truth to reasons why last "official" universal change/patch of board game Chess was last seen in 19th century. No offense taken man. Discussion is important. I understand that some people can't or won't want to adapt to the change, but I don't think that's necessarily a reason to not change it. In chess, the reason it's not changed is because there are so few variables that you can change. Pieces move in certain ways and there are no points. Probably a more relatable game would be a sport. Say baseball. MLB is trying to take steps to implement a pitch clock to force pitchers to throw their pitch within 12 seconds of getting the ball back. Right now, many pitches take upwards of 20-30 seconds. Will this throw a lot of pitchers off if implemented? Absolutely. Should still be taken to implement it? Probably. I don't think change is something to be avoided just because it causes turmoil. In terms of chaos, it wouldn't be any worse than some player somehow finding a way to make bio TvP work and players having to adapt to the new gameplay. | ||
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