On October 28 2013 17:57 Fazers wrote: Be ready, Killer
This is interesting, to see if Zero will dethrone Killer as no. 1 zerg in Sospa. During their pro careers, there was pretty much no question that Zero was the stronger, right. I think Killer might be better now though than he ever was as a pro.
Either way, gonna be interesting to see them play again!
The Korean BW pro scene's templar body may have been grievously wounded but it is slowly being resurrected into a dragoon with all it's clunky glory!!!!
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
In a capitalist, free market society we should be donating to host more BW tournaments imo.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
They were forced by the company they play for and they gave it a chance. They didn't know that SC2 was bound for shitville and when they got there, they told that shit was good so they tried it. but realizing it was shit and it wasn't THE SHIT they liked before, one by one they bailed ..
Give SC2 1 year after LoV is released and people will forget it existed .. exaggerating of course, shit will still stink even if it's forgotten ..
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
They were forced by the company they play for and they gave it a chance. They didn't know that SC2 was bound for shitville and when they got there, they told that shit was good so they tried it. but realizing it was shit and it wasn't THE SHIT they liked before, one by one they bailed ..
Give SC2 1 year after LoV is released and people will forget it existed .. exaggerating of course, shit will still stink even if it's forgotten ..
It was relevant until you shat on SC2. They just didn't like it, period. There are hundreds of progamer that enjoy it, the fact you don't is completely meaningless and doesn't justify that you shit on it. The game has its flaws, sure, but still lives after 4 years, without giving a shit about what you think of it
Personnally, I can completely understand that some players give up on the established teams and salary to get back to what they really loved and enjoyed rather than stay on a game that they don't like. Hey, not everyone want to run after the money ! And that's nice to see.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
They were forced by the company they play for and they gave it a chance. They didn't know that SC2 was bound for shitville and when they got there, they told that shit was good so they tried it. but realizing it was shit and it wasn't THE SHIT they liked before, one by one they bailed ..
Give SC2 1 year after LoV is released and people will forget it existed .. exaggerating of course, shit will still stink even if it's forgotten ..
It was relevant until you shat on SC2. They just didn't like it, period. There are hundreds of progamer that enjoy it, the fact you don't is completely meaningless and doesn't justify that you shit on it. The game has its flaws, sure, but still lives after 4 years, without giving a shit about what you think of it
Personnally, I can completely understand that some players give up on the established teams and salary to get back to what they really loved and enjoyed rather than stay on a game that they don't like. Hey, not everyone want to run after the money ! And that's nice to see.
Not saying that I don't understand it. In fact, overall I am glad. They are not doing what they enjoy (if they wouldn't enjoy it, they would have just retired and not returned to BW), and we get to see more high level BW. Just sad that it has to come on the price of financial stability.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
They were forced by the company they play for and they gave it a chance. They didn't know that SC2 was bound for shitville and when they got there, they told that shit was good so they tried it. but realizing it was shit and it wasn't THE SHIT they liked before, one by one they bailed ..
Give SC2 1 year after LoV is released and people will forget it existed .. exaggerating of course, shit will still stink even if it's forgotten ..
It was relevant until you shat on SC2. They just didn't like it, period. There are hundreds of progamer that enjoy it, the fact you don't is completely meaningless and doesn't justify that you shit on it. The game has its flaws, sure, but still lives after 4 years, without giving a shit about what you think of it
Personnally, I can completely understand that some players give up on the established teams and salary to get back to what they really loved and enjoyed rather than stay on a game that they don't like. Hey, not everyone want to run after the money ! And that's nice to see.
Not saying that I don't understand it. In fact, overall I am glad. They are not doing what they enjoy (if they wouldn't enjoy it, they would have just retired and not returned to BW), and we get to see more high level BW. Just sad that it has to come on the price of financial stability.
I don't think their financial stability was guaranteed playing SC2. There's been rumors of team reductions and salary reductions for a long time, plus a lot of these guys weren't doing very well while being under a massive burden of expectations.
With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
It did until Kespa switched to SC2. The two scenes were perfectly synergistic. Sc2 fans were happy so were BW followers but then Blizzard had to stirred up the pot.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
All the blame lies with Blizzard. They sued Kespa because they didn't want BW to compete SC2. Could Kespa even legally continue with BW without a license? If SOSPA Proleague is successful will Blizzard step in again?
I'm with the banned guy. SC2 is shit. The gameplay is shit. I wish it was legitimately good game, but its not. Its all marketing and fake hype and that's what the crowd follows, even me sometimes. When I watch English casters like Tasteless and Day9 ,half the time I don't think they even believe half the shit they're saying. Its just a promotion job for them.
I remember when Stork made that public statement after his 200th proleague win about how the players were concerned about the transition to SC2 and how he wished Kespa would consider their feelings before making the switch. Now, THAT was real. That came from the heart.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
Any interference from Blizzard at this point would be a PR suicide. I'm not worried about that at all.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
All the blame lies with Blizzard. They sued Kespa because they didn't want BW to compete SC2. Could Kespa even legally continue with BW without a license? If SOSPA Proleague is successful will Blizzard step in again?
I'm with the banned guy. SC2 is shit. The gameplay is shit. I wish it was legitimately good game, but its not. Its all marketing and fake hype and that's what the crowd follows, even me sometimes. When I watch English casters like Tasteless and Day9 ,half the time I don't think they even believe half the shit they're saying. Its just a promotion job for them.
I remember when Stork made that public statement after his 200th proleague win about how the players were concerned about the transition to SC2 and how he wished Kespa would consider their feelings before making the switch. Now, THAT was real. That came from the heart.
Can we please stop with the Sc2 vs Bw thing? This is getting kind of old since the arguments on both sides haven't changed since day 1. And I agree with Stratos. Blizzard is not stupid enough to block big Bw events.
SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
You have no idea what are u talking about,,,,,, do u even watch bw......?(rhetorical question)
SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
You have no idea what are u talking about,,,,,, do u even watch bw......?(rhetorical question)
I'm fairly sure that post was sarcastic, given the elephant in the room motif. If not then it would be unintentionally, hilariously ironic.
SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
You have no idea what are u talking about,,,,,, do u even watch bw......?(rhetorical question)
I'm fairly sure that post was sarcastic, given the elephant in the room motif. If not then it would be unintentionally, hilariously ironic.
Yep, he was joking around. I expected more posts like that to happen btw, ha. Pwease no one hurt Ellie. Don't do it, don't do it. It's not her fault her tail is small!
On October 28 2013 23:15 Saechiis wrote: SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
They were forced by the company they play for and they gave it a chance. They didn't know that SC2 was bound for shitville and when they got there, they told that shit was good so they tried it. but realizing it was shit and it wasn't THE SHIT they liked before, one by one they bailed ..
Give SC2 1 year after LoV is released and people will forget it existed .. exaggerating of course, shit will still stink even if it's forgotten ..
On October 28 2013 23:15 Saechiis wrote: SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
You have no idea what are u talking about,,,,,, do u even watch bw......?(rhetorical question)
The Romanians have spread to the south! Can't wait to watch Zero play again! Hopefully we'll see a bunch of queen usage.
On October 28 2013 23:15 Saechiis wrote: SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
All the blame lies with Blizzard. They sued Kespa because they didn't want BW to compete SC2. Could Kespa even legally continue with BW without a license? If SOSPA Proleague is successful will Blizzard step in again?
I'm with the banned guy. SC2 is shit. The gameplay is shit. I wish it was legitimately good game, but its not. Its all marketing and fake hype and that's what the crowd follows, even me sometimes. When I watch English casters like Tasteless and Day9 ,half the time I don't think they even believe half the shit they're saying. Its just a promotion job for them.
I remember when Stork made that public statement after his 200th proleague win about how the players were concerned about the transition to SC2 and how he wished Kespa would consider their feelings before making the switch. Now, THAT was real. That came from the heart.
This is great news . Ill be looking forward to the personal streams aswell, more BW is always welcomed. I really hope BW can grow again, to be the definitive strategy game it once was. No game will ever replace BW for me, the memories are to many and the love has stayed with me ever since, i will continue to watch BW as long as it has a competitive scene. Fighting!
On October 28 2013 20:26 Teodice wrote: With the increasing number of players returning to BW. Do you think that more money will be invested again in the scene? Will they be able to secure stability for the leagues and players? I would love if BW and SC2 could co-exist if possible.
What I'm mostly concerned about is whether Blizzard would allow any bigger BW tournaments to happen. They've (mostly) stayed out of Sospa's way so far, but that could be mainly just that the tournaments Sonic has been running up to this point has been so small in comparison to SC2 tournaments.
All the blame lies with Blizzard. They sued Kespa because they didn't want BW to compete SC2. Could Kespa even legally continue with BW without a license? If SOSPA Proleague is successful will Blizzard step in again?
I'm with the banned guy. SC2 is shit. The gameplay is shit. I wish it was legitimately good game, but its not. Its all marketing and fake hype and that's what the crowd follows, even me sometimes. When I watch English casters like Tasteless and Day9 ,half the time I don't think they even believe half the shit they're saying. Its just a promotion job for them.
I remember when Stork made that public statement after his 200th proleague win about how the players were concerned about the transition to SC2 and how he wished Kespa would consider their feelings before making the switch. Now, THAT was real. That came from the heart.
User was temp banned for this post.
banned really? le sigh
anyways looking forward to see zero stream
I think everyone would prefer we just not talk about sc2 in the bw forum. Also, putting "I'm with the banned guy" in a post is a pretty obvious way to get banned. I don't like sc2, I don't play sc2, I want to see zero stream some brood war, not talk about sc2 literally 2 lines of his post was even tenuously about broodwar.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
no youre not the only one, and we cant undo the damage done by the big B and it's owners, or the scramble of an immature generation eager to grab onto and eat up the success of its predecessor with one hand, whilst with the other hand dismissing everything that it had built for itself so that the game they like is the legitimate one.
but we can support them now until they move on, we can leave snipe2 on without adblock, we can give movie donations and leave him comments, we can show up to all the sospa events streamed by snipe, english or not, to show our numbers, we can politely ask those that know korean to translate stuff for us, we can continue to leave supportive comments so the few koreans that do see these threads read them, and if youre lucky enough to be in a country that has live events, even if theyre sc2, you can show up and let them know we still care about what they did.
Finally someone strong enough to compete with (or most likely to dethrone) Killer. Still rooting for minidong to prevail, BW scene is getting better and better again. New retirements HYPE!!!
On October 28 2013 23:15 Saechiis wrote: SOSPA competition is a farce. Hate to break it to you guys, but without players like Flash, Soulkey, Fantasy, Jaedong and new age stars like Life, Polt and Parting, there's just no taking it seriously. If these players ever made the switch they'd trample the current elite.
On October 29 2013 03:42 ImbaTosS wrote: BW scene keeps getting better and better! Seeing so many classic players in the SPL is going to be fascinating.
On October 28 2013 17:57 Fazers wrote: Be ready, Killer
This is interesting, to see if Zero will dethrone Killer as no. 1 zerg in Sospa. During their pro careers, there was pretty much no question that Zero was the stronger, right. I think Killer might be better now though than he ever was as a pro.
Either way, gonna be interesting to see them play again!
IMO, Killer was stronger in the last year of BW - basically, after Zero's MSL loss to Flash. Granted, Zero had a deep run in the last OSL, but Killer was playing sick starcraft in all matchups and should have had a semi-final appearance at Jin Air OSL if not for the DQ against soO.
Anyway, so excited for Zero, hope he shows some of that late game flair
On October 28 2013 17:57 Fazers wrote: Be ready, Killer
This is interesting, to see if Zero will dethrone Killer as no. 1 zerg in Sospa. During their pro careers, there was pretty much no question that Zero was the stronger, right. I think Killer might be better now though than he ever was as a pro.
Either way, gonna be interesting to see them play again!
IMO, Killer was stronger in the last year of BW - basically, after Zero's MSL loss to Flash. Granted, Zero had a deep run in the last OSL, but Killer was playing sick starcraft in all matchups and should have had a semi-final appearance at Jin Air OSL if not for the DQ against soO.
Anyway, so excited for Zero, hope he shows some of that late game flair
I feel like sAviOr is to JulyZerg what is ZerO to Killer in terms of stylistic contrast.
I feel sorry for Bisu though, now he'll never win SSL....
Guys, I'm really sorry for being such a noob, but do any of these sospa games ever get cast in english? My bw-foo isn't really strong enough to decode what is happening on korean casts. I still watch once in a while but have little idea of what's going on.
On October 28 2013 17:57 Fazers wrote: Be ready, Killer
This is interesting, to see if Zero will dethrone Killer as no. 1 zerg in Sospa. During their pro careers, there was pretty much no question that Zero was the stronger, right. I think Killer might be better now though than he ever was as a pro.
Either way, gonna be interesting to see them play again!
IMO, Killer was stronger in the last year of BW - basically, after Zero's MSL loss to Flash. Granted, Zero had a deep run in the last OSL, but Killer was playing sick starcraft in all matchups and should have had a semi-final appearance at Jin Air OSL if not for the DQ against soO.
Anyway, so excited for Zero, hope he shows some of that late game flair
I feel like sAviOr is to JulyZerg what is ZerO to Killer in terms of stylistic contrast.
I feel sorry for Bisu though, now he'll never win SSL....
I have absolutely no problem with more competition. I want my players to compete hard. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
On October 29 2013 08:18 mikedebo wrote: Guys, I'm really sorry for being such a noob, but do any of these sospa games ever get cast in english? My bw-foo isn't really strong enough to decode what is happening on korean casts. I still watch once in a while but have little idea of what's going on.
Watch out for future deal between Sonic and TL. Last SSL, we had Sayle casting so there is definitely that possibility.
On October 28 2013 18:33 icyF wrote: So nice to see the old pros migrating back to BW
I don't get it. As much as I love watching broodwar and as much as I love seeing my heroes of old back in their element again. I also can't help but feel sad that they have forsaken a gaming career on an established team with fixed salary to go back to streaming alone in their apartment and relying on fan donations to live.
Am I really the only one with mixed feelings whenever I see an old BW player switch back from SC2 to BW? Glad that they are finally free to do what they love, but sad that they have to give up whatever stability the established teams gave them (which wasn't even that much to begin with).
I think you summed it up pretty good with the: "I don't get it." Because you really don't.
For one, check the relevant earning comparisons. Which should pretty much invalidate your primary concern.
Pro Korean SC2 stable? Almost no amateurs play the game - BW is still more popular than SC2 in Korea. Viewership of SC2 in Korea is terrible - the players complain of empty arenas. And some of the most popular and successful gamers like Bisu, Zero, will not even play the game, despite teams willing to pay them. Pay even the slightest attention to relevant indicators, and it is not difficult to see where things are going: In an industry driven by sponsorship, in turn driven by viewership, SC2 has failed without a doubt in this regard. The failure is especially glaring, given the massive hype preceding SC2's release (Internationally, but to some extent in Korea as well), given the huge industrial infrastructure (OGN/Proleague/Kespa/etc) that was already in place in 2012, and given the high viewership numbers that BW was pulling. SC2 was essentially force fed to the BW audience, during the hybrid proleague. The audience was exposed, and by and large, chose to avoid subsequent exposure.
Sure, you could be reasonably sad, if SC2 was (for one) a successful/viable game in the Korean Esports Scene (from a business - viewership/sponsorship perspective), but it's not. It's a free market, and sufficiently weak things (e.g. games), should not, and cannot be expected to survive.
On October 28 2013 17:57 Fazers wrote: Be ready, Killer
This is interesting, to see if Zero will dethrone Killer as no. 1 zerg in Sospa. During their pro careers, there was pretty much no question that Zero was the stronger, right. I think Killer might be better now though than he ever was as a pro.
Either way, gonna be interesting to see them play again!
IMO, Killer was stronger in the last year of BW - basically, after Zero's MSL loss to Flash. Granted, Zero had a deep run in the last OSL, but Killer was playing sick starcraft in all matchups and should have had a semi-final appearance at Jin Air OSL if not for the DQ against soO.
Anyway, so excited for Zero, hope he shows some of that late game flair
I feel like sAviOr is to JulyZerg what is ZerO to Killer in terms of stylistic contrast.
I feel sorry for Bisu though, now he'll never win SSL....
I have absolutely no problem with more competition. I want my players to compete hard. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Oh great, another JulyZerg is fat joke. *facepalm*
Oh my goodness.. Iam ready for the zerg. I'm kinda sad soulkey and jaedong aren't still in this thing yet. We need more zergs seriously!! I only see hero on well sometimes i see larva or killer but i barely see zergs on snipealot!!....
On October 29 2013 14:03 kjwcj wrote: A New (good) Zerg!!!
!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.... he's still going to lose to Sea, isn't he
YES :D
ZerO's TLPD record against Sea is: 4 wins - 2 losses (66.67%) . So, no, I wouldn't make that a definite statement.
Anyways, when Soulkey comes back, he can pretty much destroy all Terrans.
I wouldn't bet on Soulkey coming back in a hurry. Maybe after another Proleague season, or if Woongjin as a team falls through (if they don't join with Prime/other in Proleague this season) and he somehow can't get on another team for a satisfactory wage, then maybe, but he's done too well and is arguably still the best zerg around right now, so he's got plenty more realistic opportunities that players who weren't performing quite as well (ZerO) may not have had (supposing tey would roughly continue their form).
on the other hand I think zero was one of the zergs who was actually capable of playing zvt, which isn't something you can say about any of the other sospa zergs.
On November 01 2013 18:57 flashimba wrote: Didn't Flash say he was afraid of Zero's late game?
that would surprise me, but I guess it's possible. Zero is the king of sexy queen usage. I don't know if zero will be able to beat sea, but I think he'll be alot closer to it than hero or larva are.
On November 01 2013 18:54 kerpal wrote: on the other hand I think zero was one of the zergs who was actually capable of playing zvt, which isn't something you can say about any of the other sospa zergs.
He definitely has the best background for it, he still needs to prove himself before we can say anything
On November 01 2013 18:54 kerpal wrote: on the other hand I think zero was one of the zergs who was actually capable of playing zvt, which isn't something you can say about any of the other sospa zergs.
If your counting when they were progamers, i guess but atm Killers zvt is just amazing, even though hes has a losing record vs sea, alot of the games that he loses are quick werid loses (like dying to the first mm push, or some early rine push) Hes had some crazy good games in the late game.
On November 01 2013 18:54 kerpal wrote: on the other hand I think zero was one of the zergs who was actually capable of playing zvt, which isn't something you can say about any of the other sospa zergs.
If your counting when they were progamers, i guess but atm Killers zvt is just amazing, even though hes has a losing record vs sea, alot of the games that he loses are quick werid loses (like dying to the first mm push, or some early rine push) Hes had some crazy good games in the late game.
Yeah, I think it's a product of how killer plays zvt (possibly how zerg needs to play in order to beat a player like sea?) you get games where killer holds off 3 pushes, each by the narrowest possible margin, but you also get games where he doesn't hold one of those pushes.
I get the impression that killer plays zvt on a knife edge, which is why it looks so dumb when he loses. Sometimes he gets back with his mutas at the exact moment that the last sunken dies and kills all the marines for almost nothing, sometimes he gets there 10 seconds late and loses everything he has. In the first scenario he goes into the late game in a strong position and wins an amazing macro game, in the second scenario he looks like a noob.
On October 29 2013 14:03 kjwcj wrote: A New (good) Zerg!!!
!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.... he's still going to lose to Sea, isn't he
YES :D
ZerO's TLPD record against Sea is: 4 wins - 2 losses (66.67%) . So, no, I wouldn't make that a definite statement.
Anyways, when Soulkey comes back, he can pretty much destroy all Terrans.
Old records are pretty invalid. Things have changed way too much.
That response makes no sense at all. Records from that time period (whether you want to label them old or not is irrelevant - the statistics retain their specific qualities regardless), for the purpose in question (predicting current/future performance) are not invalid. "Things" have indeed changed, (as they often do over time) just, not in a sufficiently significant, or relevant, way to impact this discussion:
A demonstrative example: Sea has a 4-0 record against Hyuk (similarly insert any zerg, larger/smaller sample size, from similar sample size, with any record against Sea), from a similar (or even earlier time period - than the Zero's 4-2 record against Sea). I haven't seen Hyuk play in a while, and I don't know anything about his recent form, but I can be reasonably sure what the result would be if he played a match against Sea (now, or anytime in the foreseeable future) JUST based on those "old" statistics.
You haven't seen Zero play recently. You don't know anything about Zero right now. The only thing you know, is that Zero had a very good record against Sea in the timeframe in question, in relatively optimal conditions (e.g. practice and preparation). Consider that Sea had a much better record against many other Zergs from that time period, and Zero had a much worse record against many other Terrans from that time period. The obvious (I thought) and logical implication for these data, is that Zero has a play style that allows him a significant advantage over Sea (especially notable considering that TvZ is a favored matchup for Terrans, considering one of Sea's best matchups is TvZ (59%), considering that ZvT is Zero's worst matchup, and even taking into account the sample size: results from similar sample sizes of Sea vs. Zergs from that time period reveals the opposite trend - in short, disregard the relevance of the record, and associated data, at risk of compromising your own integrity). This is not an uncommon phenomenon, in Starcraft, and is typically stable over time - certainly Sea and Zero have had an overall consistent style of play, and certain features of their play has remained consistent - to the extent, that discussion of "change" may not be sufficiently relevant - i.e. indications are, that even if Sea has changed, the nature of Zero's advantageous was apparently not superficial/transitory (due to observed timeframe of record, and other contextual factors), but rather, more or less systematic) (certainly within the timeframes in question).
So yes, I repeat, it is true, that in taking into account Zero's 4-2 record against Sea (and perhaps (but very nearly not necessarily), all of the associated statistics, and contextual information, from the time period in question, which you may or may not even be aware of, or inclined/able to effectively consider) you cannot definitively assume that Sea will beat Zero (whether it's now, or when Zero has practiced up to his potential).
There is a lot more that I could provide, but I would prefer not to. It shouldn't be necessary - more a matter of common sense. (Besides, look up any amount of current relevant case examples(player vs. player: past record-current performance) - and you should find evidence of the general expected co-relation - of course, in this case, sufficient sample size will be required for sufficiently meaningful result)
"Things", including but not limited to: -zero has been playing sc2 while sea has been playing bw. -sea was playing on team 8, and like all of team 8 was underperforming. -both players are several years older than they were -both will have come out of team house environments, sea has been out for longer
When you consider all of these factors, it is reasonable to say that what little weight a 4-2 record might have over any current prediction is considerably less important than the variances introduced in the time betwen then and now.
On November 02 2013 03:41 kerpal wrote: "Things", including but not limited to: -zero has been playing sc2 while sea has been playing bw. -sea was playing on team 8, and like all of team 8 was underperforming. -both players are several years older than they were -both will have come out of team house environments, sea has been out for longer
When you consider all of these factors, it is reasonable to say that what little weight a 4-2 record might have over any current prediction is considerably less important than the variances introduced in the time betwen then and now.
Your premise seems fairly solid, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. However, the point I originally made, was conceptually separate from this, and not necessarily in conflict with your statement. Although, I would view the relevant "things," in a slightly different manner - some being highly relevant and overpowering, others - not as much.
The 4-2 record (although realistically speaking, the 4-2 record is not singular statistic, but rather part of, or an indication of a number of other relevant data, as indicated in my previous post) may or may not have the most relevance (out of all potential relevant factors) at the moment. However, that distinction was not critical with regards to the point I was making: There is no information regarding Zero's current ability. The only concrete relevant information we have, is the 4-2 record. It is hypothetically possible, for example that Zero has actually, due to one, or any number of relevant "things," completely lost the ability to beat Sea. However, whether this is the case or not is irrelevant, we do not have access to that information, and consequently, at the very least (which was originally my only point) you cannot completely disregard the record's predictive ability, and state that Sea would definitively beat Zero, whether they play now, or after Zero has practiced.
I would make one explanation though qualifying the predictive power of the record: Obviously, lets say Zero doesn't practice BW at all in the past 2 years, and plays a match with Sea today. No one is going to argue the prediction for that game - whether Zero had 4-2 record against Sea, is irrelevant in this situation - he most likely wouldn't fare well.
But now, think about what the 4-2 record encompassed/meant (which I alluded to in my previous post): Sea and Zero, two of the best in the world, hours of preparation, TvZ advantage, Sea's strong record other Zergs at the time, # of other things tilted in the favor of Sea etc. In this atmosphere, the fact that Zero had a 4-2 record hints at some significant underlying strength against Sea.
In addition to past records (of the nature in question), I believe that the single most important factor, regarding predictive power, is simply: current amount of high level BW practice i.e. what Sea, and the other Afreeca BJs are doing. All practicing more or less, X number of hours per day. The extent to which Zero realizes an the demonstrated implied advantage against Sea, will simply be dependent on the extent to which he practices (e.g. against high level Terrans). It is under this conceptual framework, that the record retains its predictive power, whatever the result may be.
On November 02 2013 05:02 miercat wrote: "So yes, I repeat, it is true, that in taking into account Zero's 4-2 record against Sea (and perhaps (but very nearly not necessarily), all of the associated statistics, and contextual information, from the time period in question, which you may or may not even be aware of, or inclined/able to effectively consider) you cannot definitively assume that Sea will beat Zero (whether it's now, or when Zero has practiced up to his potential). "
Not only is this poorly written, but also completely inane. Yeah, you can't say X progamer will definitively beat Y. When can you ever? Sea holds the definitive advantage at the moment. If Zero gets back to his prime ZvT level then who knows what will happen. This is common sense.
On November 02 2013 05:02 miercat wrote: "So yes, I repeat, it is true, that in taking into account Zero's 4-2 record against Sea (and perhaps (but very nearly not necessarily), all of the associated statistics, and contextual information, from the time period in question, which you may or may not even be aware of, or inclined/able to effectively consider) you cannot definitively assume that Sea will beat Zero (whether it's now, or when Zero has practiced up to his potential). "
Not only is this poorly written, but also completely inane. Yeah, you can't say X progamer will definitively beat Y. When can you ever? Sea holds the definitive advantage at the moment. If Zero gets back to his prime ZvT level then who knows what will happen. This is common sense.
It is a completely inane concept, and based on common sense, which is why I stated that the original refutation, made no sense at all. Additionally, I was responding to the assertion that past records have no predictive ability, and the relevance of change as a factor in this situation - both of which were somewhat detached from the original point I was making.
If you think it was poorly written, it's more of a negative reflection on you, than me. You essentially re-iterated the theme of my original post, missed two specific and clear refutations, and added nothing of value. If you're going to comment, please try and follow the conversation better.
On November 02 2013 05:02 miercat wrote: "So yes, I repeat, it is true, that in taking into account Zero's 4-2 record against Sea (and perhaps (but very nearly not necessarily), all of the associated statistics, and contextual information, from the time period in question, which you may or may not even be aware of, or inclined/able to effectively consider) you cannot definitively assume that Sea will beat Zero (whether it's now, or when Zero has practiced up to his potential). "
Not only is this poorly written, but also completely inane. Yeah, you can't say X progamer will definitively beat Y. When can you ever? Sea holds the definitive advantage at the moment. If Zero gets back to his prime ZvT level then who knows what will happen. This is common sense.
It is a completely inane concept, and based on common sense, which is why I stated that the original refutation, made no sense at all. Additionally, I was responding to the assertion that past records have no predictive ability, and the relevance of change as a factor in this situation - both of which were somewhat detached from the original point I was making.
If you think it was poorly written, it's more of a negative reflection on you, than me. You essentially re-iterated the theme of my original post, missed two specific and clear refutations, and added nothing of value. If you're going to comment, please try and follow the conversation better.
Be nice. If he can't follow the conversation it's probably because of the way you write. You sound like you're trying to make your syntax intentionally obtuse in order to confuse. I don't know what you intend, but you sound as if you're trying to make yourself seem more intelligent but actually stray often into non-sequiturs.
And what's more it seem this is all to discredit what was clearly a fanboyish hype statement by epoxide, which he was non intending to submit to a rigorous statistical peer review.
I think miercat is trying to use commas for relative clauses, but he's just unintentionally going over the top with them. His bracket and comma usage became very messy, but I don't believe it was intentional.
And what's more it seem this is all to discredit what was clearly a fanboyish hype statement by epoxide, which he was non intending to submit to a rigorous statistical peer review.
Partway through writing, I realized there was probably some mis-communication one way or another, but I decided to finish anyways. In any case, it was pretty much a waste of time - common sense should have been enough. I don't really see any value in discussing it further.
it seems like bw indeed does have some more years of life in it. in the long run however, it is destined to die. old bw pros come back to the game, yes, but no new, young talent is being fostered. once the generation of killer, sea, zero, jangbi, bisu, flash, jd and so on leaves progaming, sospa and professional bw will die.
but... you know, sometimes parents live longer than their children...
EPT
ZerO and 
PianO.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/ElephantintheRoom.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/RyGgqC2jN3Mv96o1U1lII72RrRSd6ZtR4vX-cBgVOg)
Zero currently live: 
Piano streamed before 
