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On November 15 2012 06:56 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 06:16 JohnChoi wrote:On November 15 2012 05:40 TrippSC2 wrote:On November 15 2012 04:38 JohnChoi wrote:On November 15 2012 04:22 TrippSC2 wrote:On November 15 2012 03:40 vOdToasT wrote:On November 15 2012 03:36 Sumadin wrote:
Guys, get with the news okay.
The higher-ups of Blizzard are trying to sort this out as we speak. Mike Morhaime is on it.
Blizzard korea is just a local department, but they have been struggeling with Kespa for years so noone in their right mind can blame them for being strict with their IP rights. Through i would say it would be fair to argue about their timing.
Can you all put down those damm pitchforks now, this is getting embarrassing. I have no problem with the reaction, before the twitter post. Blizzard shut down something that you are passionate about and I would be pissed to in your shoes.
But, you have a quote from the CEO of Blizzard directly saying that Blizzard isn't going to shut down this tournament. Outside of a few people trying to point it out to the masses, the reaction is exactly the same! The continued anti-Blizzard tone of this thread just shows how bitter and irrational that this community can be, and it isn't limited to the BW fans. Allow me to quote myself.
What is the justification for this? Show me your " common sense " that I lack. Obviously, this was Blizzard Korea, not Blizzard, but Blizzard gave them the rules. The rules of only allowing BW tournaments to have a prize pool of $500 without paying, and letting SC2 have $5000. The rules of treating Korea worse than the rest of the world when it comes to tournaments.
Even if this was all Blizzard Korea's fault, and not Blizzard's (Intervening right before the finals rather than earlier, threatening with copyright notices against Brood War streams while leaving SC2 streams alone) Blizzard still instructed Blizzard Korea to do that shit. And they still have the bullshit rules of treating Korea and the rest of the world differently when it comes to BW tournaments, and treating BW worse than SC2 when it comes to running tournaments. Do you have any justification for this? If you don't, I'm going to continue thinking Blizzard are assholes. I don't see how they're not, but if you have arguments, let me know them, and if they are sound, I will change my mind. So, you continue to prove my point. First, different standards for BW and SC2 is irrelevant to the topic this thread is supposed to be about, which is SSL being shut down by Blizzard. SSL has a larger prize pool than is allowed for either BW or SC2, so it's not a relevant topic in this case. Seeing as how no action had been taken at all until the finals, which as I stated above has too large a prize pool for either game, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that either $500 was a typo and should have been $5000 or that $5000 is the new standard that was set and hasn't been updated in the information provided? Essentially there is no proof that there is more restriction being placed on BW than SC2 in terms of prize money. On the lawsuit topic, I'm ignorant of the Korean legal system and the source of the information stated that it was roughly translated and is not an official source but instead hearsay, but it seems possible to me that the "lawsuit" he was referring to might be similar to an injunction in the US legal system that would prevent the streaming service from broadcasting the event, which is the really the only control Blizzard can exert over BW, since it has LAN support. It seems reasonable to me that Blizzard Korea wasn't trying to stop BW streaming entirely, but just trying to stop this event from broadcasting while in violation. I really doubt the official terms would have that kind of typo i dont think its safe to assume such a thing.. and its. ot just the broadcasting online they also require you to purchase a license for the offline finals event which is indeed a LAN which means they are targetting both the online broadcast and the LAN aspect. The reason people are saying bw streams are also affectex is due to nowcom receiving a copyright which means bw streams would have to stop.. of course im only basing this off of what one streamer (Zergman) said and he is no lawyer or anything.. but the possibility of bw streams being forced to shutdown is still possible it really depends on how nowcom handles it. Plz read the other posts before you start posting stuff like this... it only further stirs up needless arguments. I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. The policy being different between BW and SC2 is in writing and is unfair, if enforced that way. The problem with everyone's complaints is that it hasn't been enforced unfairly. A tournament that would be against the terms for either SC2 or BW was to be shut down. You're free to speculate all you like as to why the actual policy isn't being enforced for BW, but the fact is that until a tournament with a <$5000 prize pool is shut down, there isn't actually anything to bitch about and this isn't applicable to this situation. Unless I'm mistaken, Nowcom runs Afreeca who would be providing streaming for SSL. If I'm not mistaken about that, don't you think that it's at least possible that Blizzard Korea is actually making sure that they don't stream the event if they try to put on the SSL anyway, since they can't really do much about them playing the event in-private with LAN? Especially since the two sources are not first-party sources? I get that you have a source that you believe, but don't tell me that I have to accept hearsay as fact in order to post. Umm ya tbh i dont understand what your saying but it seems as though your saying ssl will be able to commence as a private lan event without streams on afreeca but im trying to tell you blizzard requires a license to just host the finals in the first place regardless of whether its an offline lan or an online thing. Third time is the charm. We know that Blizzard has sent a cease-and-desist to the organizer to stop the event. If the organizer had chosen to ignore this and run the event anyway, there is nothing Blizzard Korea could do to physically stop them from playing the game, since BW can be played offline (not on Blizzard's servers). Yes, they can say they don't license the event and there would likely be legal action after the fact, but there is nothing Blizzard could do to stop the games from being played. The only viable action to prevent them for putting on the event was to go after their medium of obtaining viewership (AfreecaTV) and prevent them from broadcasting it. If that is the case, maybe the reason for the legal action against Nowcom that we are hearing about from indirect sources is related to only broadcasting SSL, instead of BW in general. We don't know much or have any reliable sources to know, so no one can logically make a judgment either way. It's possible this was a plot to stop BW from taking hold again in Korea and if you're cynical enough, you'll believe that regardless of facts. I prefer to wait for the facts to make my judgment.
ahhhh thats so much clearer thanks. i hope bw survives through this 
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On November 15 2012 03:16 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 03:09 Evangelist wrote:
Blizzard Korea has been battling KESPA for close to ten years. I imagine they've got pretty specific guidelines on how to deal with it. Maybe if the weeping vaginas in this thread had any common sense they'd realize that Blizzard reckon it's pretty cool their old game is still so loved and played.
TL again proves that it is the common sense of a confused pygmy regarding BW. What is your response to my arguments? Show nested quote +
1 Korea has stricter rules compared to the rest of the world. (The ISL's had more than $500 in their prize pools, and they got away with it).
2 Brood War has stricter rules compared to StarCraft 2. (500 instead of 5000)
3 They waited until the finals before doing anything.
4 They are sending (or at the very least publicly stated that they are considering sending) copyright notices to Brood War streams on Afreeca, but have never sent in such a notice to any private StarCraft 2 stream, despite StarCraft 2 generating more ad revenue from streaming.
What is the justification for this? Show me your " common sense " that I lack. Obviously, this was Blizzard Korea, not Blizzard, but Blizzard gave them the rules. The rules of only allowing BW tournaments to have a prize pool of $500 without paying, and letting SC2 have $5000. The rules of treating Korea worse than the rest of the world when it comes to tournaments.
Blizzard Korea is not Blizzard?
News to me.
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United States10524 Posts
and this is why i dont respect blizzard or starcraft 2.
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The tournament will be fine, Blizzard Korea seems to have acted by the letter and not the spirit of the law on this one. Don't think it should reflect poorly on Blizzard as a whole although I would like to see an apology from Blizzard Korea.
Brood War licensing is such a minor thing for Blizzard I would be surprised if they had ANY knowledge of this beforehand (the higher ups).
The reaction in this thread is understandable, but no longer justified in my opinion. It's not an intentional kick in the balls, that much is obvious.
Either way, the important thing is that we keep supporting BW tourneys as they come. Is there any donation drive or something like it for the SSL? If you guys are half as passionate as you say you are in this thread, we should be able to support SSL and other amateur tournaments better.
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On November 15 2012 07:47 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 03:16 vOdToasT wrote:On November 15 2012 03:09 Evangelist wrote:
Blizzard Korea has been battling KESPA for close to ten years. I imagine they've got pretty specific guidelines on how to deal with it. Maybe if the weeping vaginas in this thread had any common sense they'd realize that Blizzard reckon it's pretty cool their old game is still so loved and played.
TL again proves that it is the common sense of a confused pygmy regarding BW. What is your response to my arguments?
1 Korea has stricter rules compared to the rest of the world. (The ISL's had more than $500 in their prize pools, and they got away with it).
2 Brood War has stricter rules compared to StarCraft 2. (500 instead of 5000)
3 They waited until the finals before doing anything.
4 They are sending (or at the very least publicly stated that they are considering sending) copyright notices to Brood War streams on Afreeca, but have never sent in such a notice to any private StarCraft 2 stream, despite StarCraft 2 generating more ad revenue from streaming.
What is the justification for this? Show me your " common sense " that I lack. Obviously, this was Blizzard Korea, not Blizzard, but Blizzard gave them the rules. The rules of only allowing BW tournaments to have a prize pool of $500 without paying, and letting SC2 have $5000. The rules of treating Korea worse than the rest of the world when it comes to tournaments. Blizzard Korea is not Blizzard? News to me.
It's a division of Blizzard, one that is relatively minor in the grand scope of things. I'm sure they are semi-autonomous.
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what in the fuck blizzard
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Like Sc2 and other blizz games are not enough and they want to sqeeze more money whenever is possible..Blizzard boss just got owned in bw 3 times by some D+ noob and he started crying but then he decided revenge is possible by shutdown entere SSL and ask for money.... Well idk how they founded that small tournament, but accept it... The world is money and money is the world. Everything almost is money. And Blizzard are not friend. Yes they create Bw but that's it. They dont fix bugs or updating battlenet or creating maps.. Nothing. They created new game so they can receive more and more money and hey... why dont we take money from bw too.. hm.. does anyone still play it.. oh look there is a small bw fans with tiny OSL lets force them to pay.... god... Now you know why scbw is not free to play yet... After what.. 15 years this game is not free lol.
I think the problem accur when Sonic turned this into big thing. I mean ads... money.. sponsors big studio... If you force people to play and creating a tour with money and sponsors also broadcsting this to entire worlds... well yeah.. you need to pay licence... From Blizzard point of view they are right... But i mean c'mon.. this is BW ... not sc2.. Is 15 old game nobody play it...whyyyy crushing only good game.. damn,
SONIC SHOULD NOT PAY. Just... he need to found free way to do the final...
After all we dont care if games are played offline or online or in big studio or in basemant or in University... WE JUST WANT GOOD GAMES that's it... But hey.. guys we can help him, if everyone with money donate 5$ or smth it will be really cool.
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On November 15 2012 08:22 zefreak wrote:
Either way, the important thing is that we keep supporting BW tourneys as they come. Is there any donation drive or something like it for the SSL? If you guys are half as passionate as you say you are in this thread, we should be able to support SSL and other amateur tournaments better.
Show me the donate button.
(I already donated money to the swedish brood war initiative by joining and paying my fee. And I showed up at the first meeting)
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On November 14 2012 19:00 iLoveKT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 18:56 Shockk wrote:On November 14 2012 18:20 L_Master wrote:What in the motherfucking hell is this bullshit!? Fucking kidding me? Seriously blizzard FUCK YOU and go die in a fucking hole or something. While this may not totally kill SSL, it certainly fucks up everyone that had invested in preparing a pretty awesome finals and what was a nicely run tournament. All there is at the moment is one side of the story and so far there are four pages of massive anti-SC2, anti-Blizzard circlejerk, filled to the brim with hate and hyperbole. Sure, the current state of BW is nothing to be too happy about. But if this is TeamLiquid's reaction to the issue (or at least TL's BW crowd), then please, don't act surprised if TL and the "Broodwar elitists" are met with disdain everywhere else.
This may be one of the last great bastions of BW fandom on the web, this may be your little club to hang out and socialize, but you're doing an abysmal job of representing the oh-so "mature" StarCraft community. Now do me a favor, and kindly get out of here with your clueless talk and ignorance. Oh, I'll gladly leave. I appreciate your response; despite the overwhelming arrogance, yours is still one of the more level-headed replies. While you're all busy circlejerking, remember that this thread and these posts are TL's response to the situation. You could have taken the high road, waited for the other side to make a statement and either stayed silent in the meantime or at least have taken a more civil approach. Instead, it's gone right to the ugly part - SC2 is killing BW, FUCK BLIZZARD, "we don't want SC2 fanboys in here", FUCK BLIZZARD, FUCK BLIZZARD. So mature. So manner. Understand that I'm not taking any issues with you guys blowing off steam. I agree that it's very questionable what Blizzard did there. I understand passion, and hot-headed reactions regarding threats to one's hobby. But this thread is pathetic. because this is what the sc2 community is known for right? Take the high road and all...
ahaha. Yah.. pot calling the kettle black. There was no need to hate on SC2 here. Hate on Blizzard if you wish but they are two separate things. It would be interesting to see a Blizzard comment on this though imo. Sucks to have this result. Perhaps he can run it in a few months time.
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this is very sad, blizzard what are you doing?
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The whole idea that a video game company is entitled to streaming profits seems legally dubious IMO and would love to see this competently challenged in court under derivative work grounds.
To use an analogy, say I wear a nike shirt to a race. I win the race and am afforded a prize which is financed from television proceeds. Using Blizzard's logic, just because I as one of the racers happened to wear a nike shirt, then they should be entitled to some of the proceeds? Just because a unique copyright-able item is shown on a commercial presentation doesn't necessarily mean the derivative work has to gain a license. If so, newscasters would go broke right and left. Film a McDonald's building without their permission? Tough... pay $1,232,239.23! In the US at least, IP clearly allows for derivative works to allowable as long as they are distinct from the underlying work....which streams are. The game is the game...the stream is the interaction thereof and the comments. You can't mistake a tool for its application. What next? Does Blizzard go after twitch.tv and youtube streams...many of whom make decent money?
What's sad about this, is that this is over a 14 year old game on an archaic 1024X720 resolution. Despite this, the Koreans by their own hard work built this into an industry on their own while hurting no-one in the west. The Korean economy is not on par with America/Europe and the culture is very frugal, so the license fees hit them a lot harder and have effectively ended an incredible icon in Korea. So sad too that the mob on Redditt is so quick to attack anybody who is critical of Blizzard. They have no clue as to the role Blizzard played in ending BW in Korea as well...it wasn't because SC2 was so wonderful and popular...
Perhaps one day Mike Morhaime will wake up from his mad dream...realize money and control isn't the end all, and feel bad that he killed one of the greatest traditions in Korea. He will realize that he was punishing people for a victimless crime and the issue of licensing fees is mute if competitions won't pay for them. Then his grinch heart will perhaps grow two sizes and he'll announce BW competitions will be free to play from now on and not be harassed from blood-sucking lawyers. One can hope...
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On November 15 2012 08:58 Fungal Growth wrote:
The whole idea that a video game company is entitled to streaming profits seems legally dubious IMO and would love to see this competently challenged in court under derivative work grounds.
To use an analogy, say I wear a nike shirt to a race. I win the race and am afforded a prize which is financed from television proceeds. Using Blizzard's logic, just because I as one of the racers happened to wear a nike shirt, then they should be entitled to some of the proceeds? Just because a unique copyright-able item is shown on a commercial presentation doesn't necessarily mean the derivative work is has to gain a license. If so, newscasters would go broke right and left. Film a McDonald's building without their permission? Tough... pay $1,232,239.23! In the US at least, IP clearly allows for derivative works to allowable as long as they are distinct from the underlying work....which streams are. The game is the game...the stream is the interaction thereof and the comments. You can't mistake a tool for its application. What next? Does Blizzard go after twitch.tv and youtube streams...many of whom make decent money?
What's sad about this, is that this is over a 14 year old game on an archaic 1024X720 resolution. Despite this, the Koreans by their own hard work built this into an industry on their own while hurting no-one in the west. The Korean economy is not on par with America/Europe and the culture is very frugal, so the license fees hit them a lot harder and have effectively ended an incredible icon in Korea. So sad too that the mob on Redditt is so quick to attack anybody who is critical of Blizzard. They have no clue as to the role Blizzard played in ending BW in Korea as well...it wasn't because SC2 was so wonderful...
Perhaps one day Mike Morhaime will wake up from his mad dream...realize money and control isn't the end all, and feel bad that he killed one of the greatest traditions in Korea. He will realize that he was punishing people for a victimless crime and the issue of licensing fees is mute if competitions won't pay for them. Then his grinch heart will perhaps grow two sizes and he'll announce BW competitions will be free to play from now on and not be harassed from blood-sucking lawyers. One can hope...
They made the game and have the rights to the game. When you buy a game you buy the right to play it. Blizzard still owns it. So why should they not take revenue from someone else making money off their property? If they don't and no one else does then there will never be a reason for anyone to want to design games around ESports ideals.
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On November 15 2012 08:58 Fungal Growth wrote:
The whole idea that a video game company is entitled to streaming profits seems legally dubious IMO and would love to see this competently challenged in court under derivative work grounds.
To use an analogy, say I wear a nike shirt to a race. I win the race and am afforded a prize which is financed from television proceeds. Using Blizzard's logic, just because I as one of the racers happened to wear a nike shirt, then they should be entitled to some of the proceeds? Just because a unique copyright-able item is shown on a commercial presentation doesn't necessarily mean the derivative work is has to gain a license. If so, newscasters would go broke right and left. Film a McDonald's building without their permission? Tough... pay $1,232,239.23! In the US at least, IP clearly allows for derivative works to allowable as long as they are distinct from the underlying work....which streams are. The game is the game...the stream is the interaction thereof and the comments. You can't mistake a tool for its application. What next? Does Blizzard go after twitch.tv and youtube streams...many of whom make decent money?
What's sad about this, is that this is over a 14 year old game on an archaic 1024X720 resolution. Despite this, the Koreans by their own hard work built this into an industry on their own while hurting no-one in the west. The Korean economy is not on par with America/Europe and the culture is very frugal, so the license fees hit them a lot harder and have effectively ended an incredible icon in Korea. So sad too that the mob on Redditt is so quick to attack anybody who is critical of Blizzard. They have no clue as to the role Blizzard played in ending BW in Korea as well...it wasn't because SC2 was so wonderful and popular...
Perhaps one day Mike Morhaime will wake up from his mad dream...realize money and control isn't the end all, and feel bad that he killed one of the greatest traditions in Korea. He will realize that he was punishing people for a victimless crime and the issue of licensing fees is mute if competitions won't pay for them. Then his grinch heart will perhaps grow two sizes and he'll announce BW competitions will be free to play from now on and not be harassed from blood-sucking lawyers. One can hope...
I agree that it's ethically questionable. However, in almost all cases, when you purchase software you aren't really. You are instead purchasing the license to use the software. By putting conditions in the terms of use, they can legally require increased license fees for things like this.
It becomes a murky ethical argument from there. Do you say that songwriters shouldn't receive royalties for their song being used in commercials or movies? That is similar, since the movie makers are making the finished product, but a portion of that product is made by someone else. I can honestly see both sides. I do believe that the percentage of the event revenue should be pretty low, especially as the game gets older.
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On November 15 2012 09:00 mrtomjones wrote:
They made the game and have the rights to the game. Just because my factory produces hammers..doesn't mean I own the houses that are built with the hammers. In the US there is a legal principal known as derivative works. It says that you can include copyrighted material in your own work as long as it is distinct and derived which competitions clearly are. Competitions are not games. Blizzard sold a game, not a competition. I mean using your logic, where do you drawn the line? Say there is a pro-poker tournament...and the players use acme cards. Can/should acme sue just because their cards were used in the tournament?
When you buy a game you buy the right to play it. Blizzard still owns it. So why should they not take revenue from someone else making money off their property? You can't use terms like 'own' and control with intellectual property...it's completely different from tangible property and has a completely different rule-set.
If they don't and no one else does then there will never be a reason for anyone to want to design games around ESports ideals. And yet a free game in League of Legends is more popular than SC2...so there goes the incentive argument. There are different monetization strategies for game producers. In-game ads, feature up-sells, and even god-forbid...just making money off the DVD sales which we KNOW is substantial and is a tried and true breadwinner for video game producers over the years. Leaching streaming revenue is just pure greed from the industry and nothing more.
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On November 15 2012 09:09 TrippSC2 wrote:
I agree that it's ethically questionable. However, in almost all cases, when you purchase software you aren't really. You are instead purchasing the license to use the software. By putting conditions in the terms of use, they can legally require increased license fees for things like this. Did BW have such terms of use conditions? Regardless the courts frequently disregard nuanced terms and condition rules from fine print.
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On November 15 2012 09:11 Fungal Growth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 09:00 mrtomjones wrote:
They made the game and have the rights to the game. Just because my factory produces hammers..doesn't mean I own the houses that are built with the hammers. In the US there is a legal principal known as derivative works. It says that you can include copyrighted material in your own work as long as it is distinct and derived which competitions clearly are. Competitions are not games. Blizzard sold a game, not a competition. I mean using your logic, where do you drawn the line? Say there is a pro-poker tournament...and the players use acme cards. Can/should acme sue just because their cards were used in the tournament? Show nested quote +When you buy a game you buy the right to play it. Blizzard still owns it. So why should they not take revenue from someone else making money off their property? You can't use terms like 'own' and control with intellectual property...it's completely different from tangible property and has a completely different rule-set. Show nested quote +If they don't and no one else does then there will never be a reason for anyone to want to design games around ESports ideals. And yet a free game in League of Legends is more popular than SC2...so there goes the incentive argument. There are different monetization strategies for game producers. In-game ads, feature up-sells, and even god-forbid...just making money off the DVD sales which we KNOW is substantial and is a tried and true breadwinner for video game producers over the years. Leaching streaming revenue is just pure greed from the industry and nothing more.
Uhh you make terrible arguments dude. A FREE game is more popular than SC2. No kidding?
Poker and cards is a completely different thing. If you wish to play Sc2 you have ONE choice as to where to play it. If you wish to play Poker you can find any number of card's or tables to play it on. You could even make your own without much difficulty. Not very comparable.
The end point comes down to a simple idea. You do not own Starcraft. You pay for the right to play it which can be taken away. I only scanned the start of this article but it is fairly similar I THINK.
http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20111209/08380617021/microsoft-reminds-everyone-you-do-not-own-your-software.shtml
You don't own Microsoft Office. I believe this is fairly standard among most computer related ideas.
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Just because my factory produces hammers..doesn't mean I own the houses that are built with the hammers
You dont own the houses, but you own the hammers. And when workers are using your hammer and broadcast to entire world to see them and make money of it, then i bet you will ask for license, becouse your brand is showing to the world without you permission in the way you may not like... lets say like bad hammers...
It's like you are buying a movie to watch for youself... you invive a friens to share the movie.. ok thats ok.. but when you share the movie online with the world and make money of it... yeap you need permission or licence...
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On November 15 2012 08:46 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 08:22 zefreak wrote:
Either way, the important thing is that we keep supporting BW tourneys as they come. Is there any donation drive or something like it for the SSL? If you guys are half as passionate as you say you are in this thread, we should be able to support SSL and other amateur tournaments better. Show me the donate button. (I already donated money to the swedish brood war initiative by joining and paying my fee. And I showed up at the first meeting)
Yes, I would be willing to support it as well. Does anyone know a way to do this? Instead of just complain about blizzard or SC2?
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On November 15 2012 09:15 Fungal Growth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 09:09 TrippSC2 wrote:
I agree that it's ethically questionable. However, in almost all cases, when you purchase software you aren't really. You are instead purchasing the license to use the software. By putting conditions in the terms of use, they can legally require increased license fees for things like this. Did BW have such terms of use conditions? Regardless the courts frequently disregard nuanced terms and condition rules from fine print.
You are fighting a losing battle, its been industry standard for a very long time. Game publishers CAN shut down streamers. They just usually don't, and if Blizzard actually does this I will be surprised (and ashamed)
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On November 14 2012 20:32 )Messer( wrote:
quick question. How much does this license cost?
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EPT
