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China to host a BW "OSL" - Page 10

Forum Index > BW General
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Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 04:20:40
June 27 2012 04:18 GMT
#181
We should start a fund to send TaekBang to compete. They always do IEF anyway, so they must be popular in China.

Broodwar will never die!
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
June 27 2012 04:40 GMT
#182
On June 27 2012 10:49 haduken wrote:
Hmm, is gaming still banned on TV? with out TV exposure => no sponsor.


small steps man!

and i actually think that this kind of online platform is a lot more forward thinking than just tv.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 05:03:35
June 27 2012 05:02 GMT
#183
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 05:42:32
June 27 2012 05:29 GMT
#184
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 05:58:58
June 27 2012 05:49 GMT
#185
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.

It's pretty much why every game made with Asia market in mind are usually f2p. If Blizzard wants to suceed in the asia market (not just china, but everywhere else), they need to incorporate f2p model for that area or they're not going to make it outside of creating one of a kind master piece.

its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
June 27 2012 05:53 GMT
#186
yesssssss! please make it easy for foreigners to watch these games. long live brood war
Long live BroodWar!
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 06:01:17
June 27 2012 05:58 GMT
#187
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.

It's pretty much why every game made with Asia market in mind are usually f2p. If Blizzard wants to suceed in the asia market (not just china, but everywhere else), they need to incorporate f2p model for that area or they're not going to make it outside of creating one of a kind master piece.


Don't have the same beliefs in intellectual property? Have you been to taiwan, hongkong, shanghai, beijing, shenzhen (where i live), seoul, singapore, etc? These are places that are growing epicenters of high tech industry. Japan has established itself because of its economical reforms which were successful, mainland china has been under economical reform for just 30 years. Your argument makes no sense, a f2p game can be just as easily ripped off its intellectual property as a 60$ game, the prize tag wouldn't matter if that was the issue. F2P games succeed in china precisely because of their free nature and the small monetary transactions that people can afford. Has nothing to do with intellectual property. How do you expect reasonably that some one with almost no disposable income pay for expensive overseas softwares just to run his computer which would cost many times over his monthly income because of currency exchange rates and trade levies?

Yea, the situation is terrible in China in terms of protection of intellectual property, I'm a personal victim as is the company i'm working for, that doesn't mean that people don't understand the concepts or beliefs, just that the associated legal system isn't fleshed out yet. And they are often forced to violate it because they don't have a choice in the matter, or resort to playing f2p games.

Where did this "They believe soft ware should be free of charge" come from exactly? Where is that observation from? Can you list a survey, an academic source, or a list of individuals who expressed this opinion? I would like to contact them and personally educate them. The only reason why this would be the apparent case is either they literally don't know better seeing as how some parts of the chinese populous has still never used a computer before; or because of ridiculous western propoganda.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 06:11:44
June 27 2012 06:10 GMT
#188
On June 27 2012 14:58 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.

It's pretty much why every game made with Asia market in mind are usually f2p. If Blizzard wants to suceed in the asia market (not just china, but everywhere else), they need to incorporate f2p model for that area or they're not going to make it outside of creating one of a kind master piece.


Don't have the same beliefs in intellectual property? Have you been to taiwan, hongkong, shanghai, beijing, shenzhen (where i live), seoul, singapore, etc? These are places that are growing epicenters of high tech industry. Japan has established itself because of its economical reforms which were successful, mainland china has been under economical reform for just 30 years. Your argument makes no sense, a f2p game can be just as easily ripped off its intellectual property as a 60$ game, the prize tag wouldn't matter if that was the issue. F2P games succeed in china precisely because of their free nature and the small monetary transactions that people can afford. Has nothing to do with intellectual property. How do you expect reasonably that some one with almost no disposable income pay for expensive overseas softwares just to run his computer which would cost many times over his monthly income because of currency exchange rates and trade levies?

Yea, the situation is terrible in China in terms of protection of intellectual property, I'm a personal victim as is the company i'm working for, that doesn't mean that people don't understand the concepts or beliefs, just that the associated legal system isn't fleshed out yet. And they are often forced to violate it because they don't have a choice in the matter, or resort to playing f2p games.


I work as a marketing/product manager in a software company in Taiwan, respect for intellectual properties are something you learned from as a society, not individually. I'm just going to tell you that you're not going to get many customers willing to pay for software in Asia. Lets put this into perspective, nearly 90% of the customers here bought our hardware with software incorporated in them while in the states nearly all our sales are through software. We specifically made hardware and software links because we know softwares have no worth to individual buyers (companies are of different stories)

what I am saying is not politically correct, but its the truth.

f2p games can't be ripped off of its intellectual properties, that made no sense. People would either pirate the game to play them for free, and if they can't (incase of online games), they go play something else that will. And trust me when I say those monotary transaction from f2p games are far from cheap. Gamers in asia are used to believe software should be free that they won't pay money for those that aren't

Here's something to put into perspective on Piracy, and the figures aren't any better now

Country 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998
Korea 75% 76% 70% 67% 64%
U.S. 31% 26% 27% 27% 25%
Japan 66% 55% 41% 32% 31%
Taiwan 72% 70% 66% 63% 50%
China 97% 96% 96% 96% 95%
Total World 49% 46% 43% 40% 38%
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 27 2012 06:10 GMT
#189
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
June 27 2012 06:12 GMT
#190
On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.


hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 27 2012 06:14 GMT
#191
On June 27 2012 15:10 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:58 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.

It's pretty much why every game made with Asia market in mind are usually f2p. If Blizzard wants to suceed in the asia market (not just china, but everywhere else), they need to incorporate f2p model for that area or they're not going to make it outside of creating one of a kind master piece.


Don't have the same beliefs in intellectual property? Have you been to taiwan, hongkong, shanghai, beijing, shenzhen (where i live), seoul, singapore, etc? These are places that are growing epicenters of high tech industry. Japan has established itself because of its economical reforms which were successful, mainland china has been under economical reform for just 30 years. Your argument makes no sense, a f2p game can be just as easily ripped off its intellectual property as a 60$ game, the prize tag wouldn't matter if that was the issue. F2P games succeed in china precisely because of their free nature and the small monetary transactions that people can afford. Has nothing to do with intellectual property. How do you expect reasonably that some one with almost no disposable income pay for expensive overseas softwares just to run his computer which would cost many times over his monthly income because of currency exchange rates and trade levies?

Yea, the situation is terrible in China in terms of protection of intellectual property, I'm a personal victim as is the company i'm working for, that doesn't mean that people don't understand the concepts or beliefs, just that the associated legal system isn't fleshed out yet. And they are often forced to violate it because they don't have a choice in the matter, or resort to playing f2p games.


I work as a marketing/product manager in a software company in Taiwan, respect for intellectual properties are something you learned from as a society, not individually. I'm just going to tell you that you're not going to get many customers willing to pay for software in Asia. Lets put this into perspective, nearly 90% of the customers here bought our hardware with software incorporated in them while in the states nearly all our sales are through software. We specifically made hardware and software links because we know softwares have no worth to individual buyers (companies are of different stories)

what I am saying is not politically correct, but its the truth.

f2p games can't be ripped off of its intellectual properties, that made no sense. People would either pirate the game to play them for free, and if they can't (incase of online games), they go play something else that will. And trust me when I say those monotary transaction from f2p games are far from cheap, they are used to believe software should be free that they won't pay money for those that aren't

Here's something to put into perspective on Piracy, and the figures aren't any better now

Country 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998
Korea 75% 76% 70% 67% 64%
U.S. 31% 26% 27% 27% 25%
Japan 66% 55% 41% 32% 31%
Taiwan 72% 70% 66% 63% 50%
China 97% 96% 96% 96% 95%
Total World 49% 46% 43% 40% 38%


Jesus christ these figures are ridiculously dated, have you seen China in 1998? I think only about 1/50 people had a computer, and 1/10 people had a phone. F2P games can be ripped off their intellectual properties by exploiting assets, unless your understanding of intellectual property is as shallow as "if it's free it has no intellectual property". There's a huge difference again between not willing to pay for the product because it's expensive and not respecting your intellectual property. Notice that having the software readily installed is a marketing decision that's completely irrelevant of the price you charge, nor the intellectual property of the software.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Marou
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1371 Posts
June 27 2012 06:16 GMT
#192
I think this will maintain the BW competitive scene alive just as China kept the WC3 competitive scene alive when it was dead everywhere else in the world.
If this league is successful and if the prizepool grow significantly higher we might see korean and foreigners BW players move to china like we saw for WC3 but i honestly doubt it will go this far.
twitter@RickyMarou
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 06:27:48
June 27 2012 06:21 GMT
#193
On June 27 2012 15:12 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.


hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers


So... Baidu/microsoft/apple IOS/China Mobile/unicom phone operating system software is hardware? Most of the most profitable companies in China are software companies that provide services for Phones, computers, and so forth. Microsoft has continued its XP system and support in China for far longer than its expected life span due to its lower price point. And also, hardware doesn't hold intellectual property? >_>
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
June 27 2012 06:28 GMT
#194
On June 27 2012 15:14 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 15:10 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:58 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.

It's pretty much why every game made with Asia market in mind are usually f2p. If Blizzard wants to suceed in the asia market (not just china, but everywhere else), they need to incorporate f2p model for that area or they're not going to make it outside of creating one of a kind master piece.


Don't have the same beliefs in intellectual property? Have you been to taiwan, hongkong, shanghai, beijing, shenzhen (where i live), seoul, singapore, etc? These are places that are growing epicenters of high tech industry. Japan has established itself because of its economical reforms which were successful, mainland china has been under economical reform for just 30 years. Your argument makes no sense, a f2p game can be just as easily ripped off its intellectual property as a 60$ game, the prize tag wouldn't matter if that was the issue. F2P games succeed in china precisely because of their free nature and the small monetary transactions that people can afford. Has nothing to do with intellectual property. How do you expect reasonably that some one with almost no disposable income pay for expensive overseas softwares just to run his computer which would cost many times over his monthly income because of currency exchange rates and trade levies?

Yea, the situation is terrible in China in terms of protection of intellectual property, I'm a personal victim as is the company i'm working for, that doesn't mean that people don't understand the concepts or beliefs, just that the associated legal system isn't fleshed out yet. And they are often forced to violate it because they don't have a choice in the matter, or resort to playing f2p games.


I work as a marketing/product manager in a software company in Taiwan, respect for intellectual properties are something you learned from as a society, not individually. I'm just going to tell you that you're not going to get many customers willing to pay for software in Asia. Lets put this into perspective, nearly 90% of the customers here bought our hardware with software incorporated in them while in the states nearly all our sales are through software. We specifically made hardware and software links because we know softwares have no worth to individual buyers (companies are of different stories)

what I am saying is not politically correct, but its the truth.

f2p games can't be ripped off of its intellectual properties, that made no sense. People would either pirate the game to play them for free, and if they can't (incase of online games), they go play something else that will. And trust me when I say those monotary transaction from f2p games are far from cheap, they are used to believe software should be free that they won't pay money for those that aren't

Here's something to put into perspective on Piracy, and the figures aren't any better now

Country 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998
Korea 75% 76% 70% 67% 64%
U.S. 31% 26% 27% 27% 25%
Japan 66% 55% 41% 32% 31%
Taiwan 72% 70% 66% 63% 50%
China 97% 96% 96% 96% 95%
Total World 49% 46% 43% 40% 38%


Jesus christ these figures are ridiculously dated, have you seen China in 1998? I think only about 1/50 people had a computer, and 1/10 people had a phone. F2P games can be ripped off their intellectual properties by exploiting assets, unless your understanding of intellectual property is as shallow as "if it's free it has no intellectual property". There's a huge difference again between not willing to pay for the product because it's expensive and not respecting your intellectual property. Notice that having the software readily installed is a marketing decision that's completely irrelevant of the price you charge, nor the intellectual property of the software.


sadly those figures have barely changed much since then. I don't know what you're trying to argue, you can slash prices on software and you'll be worse off, because majority of those that don't respect intellectual properties just aren't going to pay for it no matter how much you price them. You are better off pricing accordingly to those that do respect those properties, despite how few of them out there. How are you going to sell your software if majority of the market believes software are free? In asia, you sell hardwares (with software incorporated) to individual consumers and softwares to business.

You mentioned microsoft reducing prices on its OS by nearly a 1/3 to fight for privacy back in the 2006s, but you realize that has ended in a failure, right? They're back into their old rountine of cutting into the legislatures to curb privacy.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 06:35:06
June 27 2012 06:29 GMT
#195
On June 27 2012 15:21 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 15:12 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.


hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers


So... Baidu/microsoft/apple IOS/China Mobile/unicom phone operating system software is hardware? Most of the most profitable companies in China are software companies that provide services for Phones, computers, and so forth. Microsoft has continued its XP system and support in China for far longer than its expected life span due to its lower price point. And also, hardware doesn't hold intellectual property? >_>


I high light the keyword. Sell to businesses, cause they are entities and not individuals that must respect intellectual properties

microsoft made a windfall in parts of china because they were able to get legislature to pass that all computers must be sold with a legitimate operating system. They have tried cutting costs to their OS with no avail back in the 2005s, now they just try to fight it with law enforcements in the 2010s. Even then, china has the similar number of PC sold compare to the US yet only earned 1/20 of the revenue. Though I expect they probably sold next to nothing to individual consumers

Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 06:39:09
June 27 2012 06:36 GMT
#196
On June 27 2012 15:29 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 15:21 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:12 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.


hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers


So... Baidu/microsoft/apple IOS/China Mobile/unicom phone operating system software is hardware? Most of the most profitable companies in China are software companies that provide services for Phones, computers, and so forth. Microsoft has continued its XP system and support in China for far longer than its expected life span due to its lower price point. And also, hardware doesn't hold intellectual property? >_>


I high light the keyword. Sell to businesses, cause they are entities and not individuals that must respect intellectual properties

microsoft made a windfall in china because they were able to get legislature to pass that all computers must be sold with a legitimate operating system. They have tried cutting costs to their OS with no avail back in the 2005s, now they just try to fight it with law enforcements in the 2010s



Your argument is that piracy stems from the lack of observation to intellectual property. What sense does it make that individuals do not respect properties where as entities do? What corporatism is this? If all the emcompassing individuals in an entity or institution do not respect intellectual property why would they when collected together. And if society is an entity made out of emcompassing individuals, why would the same rule not apply? Does it occur to you that again, people are pirating not because they disrespect the property, but because they are poor? Companies have money and therefore pay for them, your observation that businesses pay for them just back this up.

My argument is simply this:in these areas, for the lower and middle class, they do not have the disposable income and therefore they pirate, not as the result of disrespecting intellectual property, but as the result of either ignorance to the matter (which is different from ignoring the matter selectively once told) and lack of disposal income to spend on it.

It's a extremely insulting generalization to say that "The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free" or that "Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners".
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
TheShimmy
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1808 Posts
June 27 2012 07:14 GMT
#197
Who cares about all the piracy issues?

THIS IS FREAKING BROODWAR BEING REBORN
Hyvaa #1 Fan. Gogo STX, Dear, Bogus, Classic, and Mini! Always a BW fan!
ImbaTosS
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1736 Posts
June 27 2012 08:50 GMT
#198
On June 27 2012 16:14 TheShimmy wrote:
Who cares about all the piracy issues?

THIS IS FREAKING BROODWAR BEING REBORN

It does rather look like it needs its own thread!
EleGant[AoV]
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 09:35:26
June 27 2012 09:35 GMT
#199
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


you can sell games there at $5 a copy and it still wouldn't make a difference. Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners. Most of them believes software should be free of charge while in the west majority still respects intellectual properties.


We do have (used to have a lot more) a lot of pirated stuff sold around the equivalent of $3 to $5 a copy : CDs, DVDs or games. Guess what? The gangsters are really really rich.

It could all have gone to the companies who made it but they decided to sell it at a price that's effectively close to quadruple the US market price (taking into account the exchange rate), most of the time, more.

Imagine if CDs were sold at 50$ (RM 50) and the the hourly wage at KFC is about $3.50 (RM3.50).

Get a grip.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
June 27 2012 10:03 GMT
#200
On June 27 2012 15:36 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2012 15:29 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:21 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:12 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:
On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo


Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money.

Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb.

I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot.


its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW


It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable.


hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers


So... Baidu/microsoft/apple IOS/China Mobile/unicom phone operating system software is hardware? Most of the most profitable companies in China are software companies that provide services for Phones, computers, and so forth. Microsoft has continued its XP system and support in China for far longer than its expected life span due to its lower price point. And also, hardware doesn't hold intellectual property? >_>


I high light the keyword. Sell to businesses, cause they are entities and not individuals that must respect intellectual properties

microsoft made a windfall in china because they were able to get legislature to pass that all computers must be sold with a legitimate operating system. They have tried cutting costs to their OS with no avail back in the 2005s, now they just try to fight it with law enforcements in the 2010s



Your argument is that piracy stems from the lack of observation to intellectual property. What sense does it make that individuals do not respect properties where as entities do? What corporatism is this? If all the emcompassing individuals in an entity or institution do not respect intellectual property why would they when collected together. And if society is an entity made out of emcompassing individuals, why would the same rule not apply? Does it occur to you that again, people are pirating not because they disrespect the property, but because they are poor? Companies have money and therefore pay for them, your observation that businesses pay for them just back this up.

My argument is simply this:in these areas, for the lower and middle class, they do not have the disposable income and therefore they pirate, not as the result of disrespecting intellectual property, but as the result of either ignorance to the matter (which is different from ignoring the matter selectively once told) and lack of disposal income to spend on it.

It's a extremely insulting generalization to say that "The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free" or that "Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners".


So your argument is that because people are poor, it's okay to steal?
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