• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:01
CEST 03:01
KST 10:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play1Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)83ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo37Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser Is the larve respawn broken? Old Replays From 1.4.6 The future of the SC game model
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event INu's Battles#17 <BO.9> Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All
Brood War
General
ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool ProGamer Paychecks Story Data needed Best thing happen to StarCraft since Remastered? BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Listen To The Coaches!
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7922 users

China to host a BW "OSL" - Page 8

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 14 Next All
chaosTheory_14cc
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1270 Posts
June 26 2012 03:17 GMT
#141
This is so fucking awesome, China rocks.

On June 25 2012 23:22 2Pacalypse- wrote:
And now the BW will be reborn in China. Looking forward to following the scene next 13 years on shitty 240p streams and commentating in language I don't understand!

Hell yeah!
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-26 03:23:49
June 26 2012 03:20 GMT
#142
On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.

Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P


The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s.

Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams.

In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers.

Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately.

That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Zer atai
Profile Joined September 2011
United States691 Posts
June 26 2012 03:22 GMT
#143
very interesting, I'll definitely tune in to watch
Want to sport eSports? Disable adblock. P.S. En Taro Adun!!
TORTOISE
Profile Joined December 2010
United States515 Posts
June 26 2012 03:41 GMT
#144
YOU CANT KILL BROODWAR MOTHERFUCKERS!~!!

BOOYEAH!
◕ ‿‿ ◕ ๑•́ ₃ •̀๑ ( ͡ ° ͜ ʖ ͡°)
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 26 2012 04:08 GMT
#145
I've never casted anything before but I might try to get something going for this, hmm....
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
jimmydu444
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada250 Posts
June 26 2012 04:27 GMT
#146
I doubt China will become the next Korea of BW. Chinese people just doesn't like to play RTS, they would rather be playing locally developed three kingdom related RPGs, shitty local MMOs/WOW and Dota/Dota-esque games instead. The only time the chinese got into a RTS was Warcraft III but no body else play the game outside of China/Lyn anymore.


I believe in Sets, The Rationals, LQG and PoltPrime.WE
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 26 2012 04:48 GMT
#147
On June 26 2012 13:27 jimmydu444 wrote:
I doubt China will become the next Korea of BW. Chinese people just doesn't like to play RTS, they would rather be playing locally developed three kingdom related RPGs, shitty local MMOs/WOW and Dota/Dota-esque games instead. The only time the chinese got into a RTS was Warcraft III but no body else play the game outside of China/Lyn anymore.




dahhhhhh chinese people play rts' quite alot too, they play local mmos and other games mainly because they are FREE not because of the genre.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
June 26 2012 05:02 GMT
#148
Yay!

WATCH the most refined sunken rushers in the world!
SEE the largest monetary transfer from China to Korea in living memory!
CELEBRATE the best game ever!
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
TearsOfTheSun
Profile Joined March 2006
Canada995 Posts
June 26 2012 05:33 GMT
#149
i've been saying it for years to my friends. china will either challenge korea in BW or save BW. wooooooooo
Dixer_ca^^ | Polt | Byun | MKP | DRG | White-Ra | Beastyqt | Maru | Creator
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 26 2012 05:43 GMT
#150
major update for league rules, matches, and informations
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
June 26 2012 06:33 GMT
#151
On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.

Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P


I'm sure they are just salivating over that $600 first place.

On a serious note I wish efforts like this would have happened years ago and with a more open policy towards non-Chinese. As of now I can't really say I enjoy the thought of travelling 6 years into the past. It's like reading about the Cuban BW scene: incredibly interesting but ultimately doesn't affect me in the slightest.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
June 26 2012 07:56 GMT
#152
On June 26 2012 13:48 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 13:27 jimmydu444 wrote:
I doubt China will become the next Korea of BW. Chinese people just doesn't like to play RTS, they would rather be playing locally developed three kingdom related RPGs, shitty local MMOs/WOW and Dota/Dota-esque games instead. The only time the chinese got into a RTS was Warcraft III but no body else play the game outside of China/Lyn anymore.




dahhhhhh chinese people play rts' quite alot too, they play local mmos and other games mainly because they are FREE not because of the genre.


Yeah, but all college aged people I know play Dota and Warcraft 3 rather than BW/SC2. Those scenes I believe are a lot bigger in China.
Meh
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
June 26 2012 07:59 GMT
#153
On June 26 2012 09:27 Chef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 04:08 JieXian wrote:
On June 26 2012 00:28 Arceus wrote:
I dont know if it's a matter of taste or China is just late on following the trend. Wc3, BW and AoE2 all have their own huge community there. But unlike Korean BW, which lives on their profesionalism and legacy, these games are popular in China just because of easy piracy, low system requirement and guess what, no one else playing them outside of the mainland.
Think Im a lil bit offtopic lol /my2cent


Yup. No one else besides a mere one billion mainlanders

For people who don't know any Chinese players, the Chinese Bnet attack was 1 of the most hilarious gaming show I've ever watched.

F91 with eng subs


w/o subs

Oh wow, this is the game where he learned that build that he used like... the next day vs Idra in TL's King of the Hill type thing. That's awesome :D


WHICH ONE? WHERE?
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 26 2012 08:00 GMT
#154
On June 26 2012 16:56 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 13:48 Caihead wrote:
On June 26 2012 13:27 jimmydu444 wrote:
I doubt China will become the next Korea of BW. Chinese people just doesn't like to play RTS, they would rather be playing locally developed three kingdom related RPGs, shitty local MMOs/WOW and Dota/Dota-esque games instead. The only time the chinese got into a RTS was Warcraft III but no body else play the game outside of China/Lyn anymore.




dahhhhhh chinese people play rts' quite alot too, they play local mmos and other games mainly because they are FREE not because of the genre.


Yeah, but all college aged people I know play Dota and Warcraft 3 rather than BW/SC2. Those scenes I believe are a lot bigger in China.


Because those games are alot more "friendly" and socialable than BW / SC2, the scene is alot more "casual" mannered because of the social stigma against professional gaming. They are definitely alot more wide spread, but I wouldn't call it "bigger" in terms of esports scene.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
fortheGG
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1002 Posts
June 26 2012 08:05 GMT
#155
On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.

Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P


The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s.

Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams.

In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers.

Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately.

That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth.


Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-26 08:12:31
June 26 2012 08:11 GMT
#156
On June 26 2012 17:05 fortheGG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:
On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.

Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P


The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s.

Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams.

In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers.

Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately.

That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth.


Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league.


most chinese people play mobas / custom WC3 maps because it's seen as casual / sociable and less intense than competitive RTS, so alot more people got into it than BW. WC3 and Dota in China is equivalent to BW in KR, but again usually students are told by parents to study for graduating at a top uni rather than gaming, and if their grades were bad parents often blamed video games and didn't let them play any ways.

You also have to realize that the salary for a freshly graduated uni student in china is on the level of lower-middle class, it's really not a sustaineable solution for forming a family, all traditional chinese parents aim for the long run. There is definitely money in esports in china, but it's not seen as legitimate.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
NicksonReyes
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Philippines4431 Posts
June 26 2012 08:41 GMT
#157
Good luck to the Chinese BW players! Reviving BW will take years, probably another decade, but I'll give them my support until there's a legit proscene again, when retired korean pros decide to migrate to China.
On June 25 2012 23:41 Bakuryu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2012 23:22 2Pacalypse- wrote:
And now the BW will be reborn in China. Looking forward to following the scene next 13 years on shitty 240p streams and commentating in language I don't understand!


So nothing will change?

NO KPOP! I got into korean music because of BW in korea . Cpop time?
"Start yo" -FlaSh
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
June 26 2012 08:48 GMT
#158
On June 26 2012 17:41 NicksonReyes wrote:
Good luck to the Chinese BW players! Reviving BW will take years, probably another decade, but I'll give them my support until there's a legit proscene again, when retired korean pros decide to migrate to China.
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2012 23:41 Bakuryu wrote:
On June 25 2012 23:22 2Pacalypse- wrote:
And now the BW will be reborn in China. Looking forward to following the scene next 13 years on shitty 240p streams and commentating in language I don't understand!


So nothing will change?

NO KPOP! I got into korean music because of BW in korea . Cpop time?


lol cpop, doesn't even exists. I joke about the lack of value in kpop / jpop but man, cpop doesnt even exist, i'm chinese and I don't even know what cpop is supposed to be.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5600 Posts
June 26 2012 08:53 GMT
#159
Imagine if this is the new beginning for the best game ever made. Imagine if in 3-5 years we will have a scene as developped as the Korean once was... One can always hope.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
June 26 2012 09:06 GMT
#160
HK gangster rap *whistles*
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 14 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 190
ProTech158
Ketroc 49
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 3406
Rain 3249
Artosis 609
NaDa 57
Purpose 11
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm127
League of Legends
Doublelift20493
JimRising 445
Counter-Strike
taco 7
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe230
Mew2King60
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor150
Other Games
summit1g18375
Maynarde301
UpATreeSC58
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1322
BasetradeTV274
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta24
• RyuSc2 23
• mYiSmile17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2968
Other Games
• Shiphtur392
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
59m
WardiTV Weekly
9h 59m
RSL Revival
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 15h
Bombastic Starleague
1d 18h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
OSC
2 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Bombastic Starleague
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
HomeStory Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
HomeStory Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
HomeStory Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Douyu Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
ASL Season 22:Wild Card Qualifier
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.