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+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2012 19:03 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 15:36 Caihead wrote:On June 27 2012 15:29 iky43210 wrote:On June 27 2012 15:21 Caihead wrote:On June 27 2012 15:12 iky43210 wrote:On June 27 2012 15:10 Caihead wrote:On June 27 2012 14:49 iky43210 wrote:On June 27 2012 14:29 Caihead wrote:On June 27 2012 14:02 iky43210 wrote:
The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free (few exception to this rule), with that set out sc2 is doom to fail in china and I don't see influx of new chinese generation gamers will pursue a decade old game when there are many free and more modern games out there such as LoL/dota2/counterstrikeclonex123/mmo Racial stereotyping aside, this is caused more by the outrageous price point of games when compared with the average wage level in china right now, a brand new game like diablo 3 or SC2 costs upwards of 400 rmb when converted, easily over a pre-university student's monthly allowance if he's in the middle or lower class. I'm chinese and I pay for all my games on steam because I have the previlege of paying for them from official sources over seas, there's alot of stigma against even "official" game retailers in china because piracy is so rampant - which again, is not caused by lower moral standards or w/e, but just the fact that the people didn't have money. Like for example: The average wage levels of a lower to lower-middle class employee working in China's urban areas is around 2000-3000 rmb per month, where as the middle to upper-middle class make anywhere between 3000-10000 on average (the upper class makes a ridiculously higher sum of money but that's true in most societies), a PS3 or Xbox360 or upgraded PC set up could cost upwards of a few thousand rmb or even upward into the ten thousands. The proportion it is to your income is huge. People in the west complain about full price games being 60$ USD or Euro, but that's a much smaller proportion when compared to your average income level than say 400 rmb to 2000 rmb. I'm pulling the figures right now off bnet, it's been 2 and a half years since SC2's come out, and it's still ~300 HK $ which translates to around 250, where as diablo 3 is 399 or 525. It could attribute to more than 20% of a middle class family's monthly disposable income, it's alot. its not racial stereotyping, its marketing and business sense, which I severely thinks Blizzard asia department is completely incompetent just by looking at the bridges they burn in China such as the deal with the9 and the fiasco with diablo 3 and Korean customers. Their product manager should've raised many red flags when they decide to make return of the lich king with WoW It's marketing and business sense in the respect that western companies are not willing to lower their price points, that's literally it. Baidu is successful in China, China Mobile/unicom is successful in China, as is Microsoft and Apple. Apple markets itself to the upper class in China to avoid the price point conflict, and Microsoft turns a blind eye to lower price points and piracy to ensure their hold on the market. Nothing about it has anything to do with the Chinese' understanding of intellectual property. Google bombed out of China where as Baidu is massively profitable. hardware is not software. Hardware has plenty of worth to Asia consumers So... Baidu/microsoft/apple IOS/China Mobile/unicom phone operating system software is hardware? Most of the most profitable companies in China are software companies that provide services for Phones, computers, and so forth. Microsoft has continued its XP system and support in China for far longer than its expected life span due to its lower price point. And also, hardware doesn't hold intellectual property? >_> I high light the keyword. Sell to businesses, cause they are entities and not individuals that must respect intellectual propertiesmicrosoft made a windfall in china because they were able to get legislature to pass that all computers must be sold with a legitimate operating system. They have tried cutting costs to their OS with no avail back in the 2005s, now they just try to fight it with law enforcements in the 2010s Your argument is that piracy stems from the lack of observation to intellectual property. What sense does it make that individuals do not respect properties where as entities do? What corporatism is this? If all the emcompassing individuals in an entity or institution do not respect intellectual property why would they when collected together. And if society is an entity made out of emcompassing individuals, why would the same rule not apply? Does it occur to you that again, people are pirating not because they disrespect the property, but because they are poor? Companies have money and therefore pay for them, your observation that businesses pay for them just back this up. My argument is simply this:in these areas, for the lower and middle class, they do not have the disposable income and therefore they pirate, not as the result of disrespecting intellectual property, but as the result of either ignorance to the matter (which is different from ignoring the matter selectively once told) and lack of disposal income to spend on it. It's a extremely insulting generalization to say that "The chinese will not play a game if it cannot be pirated or is free" or that "Asia customers(beside Japan) just don't have the same beliefs in intellectual properties as the westerners". So your argument is that because people are poor, it's okay to steal? Sayle, what? I thought you were more clear headed than this, I'm rationalizing the behaviour and saying it didn't come from a disregard for intellectual property. And that it can be changed with education (removing ignorance) and removing poverty. Since when did I defend the behaviour, I just said it's the result of people being poor, it's important to understand why people do certain things so you don't get on misguided moral crusades like this guy. I'm actively doing things in my social circle to prevent piracy, I haven't pirated anything since 2002. When a poor man steals bread because he can't afford it and he needs to eat and doesn't know better, and doesn't have the platform to enumerate his labour into currency, it's alot different from a rich man stealing from the poor intentionally when he doesn't need it at all, and justifying it with some corporate bull shit about maximizing his own profits. Both actions are immoral but different in nature. Edit: Also i'm fed up as fuck with people coming into random threads, seeing that it contains the word "china" in it, then saying some generalized bull shit about China or Asia, so I'm sorry if I got carried away. That was literally his cue, he just came into the thread, didn't even read what it was about, then saying that Chinese people only pirate or play games that are free, then generalizing Asian people (including S.Korea) about not having beliefs in intellectual property. Would this stand if I came into a NASL thread and started saying random shit about America for no reason?
spoiled for prosperity
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Belgium8305 Posts
Guys, this piracy discussion has nothing to do with the thread. Please keep things on topic. Warnings and cruel, cruel punishment will be handed out from this post on.
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major update to the OP with streams and vod / time details =3
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If anyone is planning to cast / restream / post results or anything of the sort please pm me, if yall want a tournament thread made after this also vote in the polls
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still in the process of getting in touch with plu.cn due to archaic forum posting rules, update yall as we go
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Here is something @ Caihead: http://bbs.plu.cn/thread-2651717-1-1.html
@ anything else understanding Chinese (if Caihead is too busy), the link is kind of a jump start to those wishing to make a LR thread.
I think this is the first broadcast of the league. Reason why this group have to be played first? Conflict of time with JayStar so organizers decided to proceed.
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On June 28 2012 08:55 Xiphos wrote:Here is something @ Caihead: http://bbs.plu.cn/thread-2651717-1-1.html@ anything else understanding Chinese (if Caihead is too busy), the link is kind of a jump start to those wishing to make a LR thread. I think this is the first broadcast of the league. Reason why this group have to be played first? Conflict of time with JayStar so organizers decided to proceed.
thx, added to op
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On June 25 2012 23:08 ghrur wrote:Are F91 and PJ playing in this? :O I didn't see their names. 
F91 is playing SC2. as for pj,he disappears for long
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On June 26 2012 00:24 renzy wrote:
JXSA_lower looks to be mihu. He's a crazy ass 350 APM terran and I think he should be a favorite to win this since people like PJ and F91 don't appear to be playing.
i am from China ,,,JXSA_lower is mihu ,,it is said that he will win the champion...
by the way ,,i am surprised that you know mihu ..how did you get it??
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On June 26 2012 00:37 WGT-Baal wrote:
Fengzi!! OMG I need to watch this!
Fengzi is the 2009 wcg china final champion,you know him?
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On June 26 2012 01:58 Shinespark wrote:
I saw names like Bisu and Jaedong on the player list. Are those the real deal?
they just love jaedong ,bisu ...and make the names ..
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On June 30 2012 00:05 mcm_mingge wrote:Fengzi is the 2009 wcg china final champion,you know him?
Some of us follows the World Cyber Games.
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On June 26 2012 03:36 Ribbon wrote:
Well, that's unexpected
Not unwelcome, though. Pretty awesome, in fact. It'll probably take a year or three for Chinese pros to get up to the level we're used to, but this is the first really good news BW fans have had in a long time.
I wonder how many Koreans will move to China to play.
just a very small game..and it is hard for other country's players to join ...by the way ,,i am from china.
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On June 26 2012 04:27 Marti wrote:
How big is the chinese scene ? How much money is that ( from a chinese perspective, i know what 1300 $ is worth, ) ? Do they know there is a foreign scene ? Will they let us stream their event ?
i think that they will ...i know ..for i am from china
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On June 26 2012 17:11 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 17:05 fortheGG wrote:On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.
Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s. Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams. In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers. Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately. That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth. Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league. most chinese people play mobas / custom WC3 maps because it's seen as casual / sociable and less intense than competitive RTS, so alot more people got into it than BW. WC3 and Dota in China is equivalent to BW in KR, but again usually students are told by parents to study for graduating at a top uni rather than gaming, and if their grades were bad parents often blamed video games and didn't let them play any ways. You also have to realize that the salary for a freshly graduated uni student in china is on the level of lower-middle class, it's really not a sustaineable solution for forming a family, all traditional chinese parents aim for the long run. There is definitely money in esports in china, but it's not seen as legitimate.
that is it.
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On June 30 2012 00:50 mcm_mingge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 17:11 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 17:05 fortheGG wrote:On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.
Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s. Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams. In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers. Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately. That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth. Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league. most chinese people play mobas / custom WC3 maps because it's seen as casual / sociable and less intense than competitive RTS, so alot more people got into it than BW. WC3 and Dota in China is equivalent to BW in KR, but again usually students are told by parents to study for graduating at a top uni rather than gaming, and if their grades were bad parents often blamed video games and didn't let them play any ways. You also have to realize that the salary for a freshly graduated uni student in china is on the level of lower-middle class, it's really not a sustaineable solution for forming a family, all traditional chinese parents aim for the long run. There is definitely money in esports in china, but it's not seen as legitimate. that is it.
Hey did you get my PM?
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On June 30 2012 00:53 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 00:50 mcm_mingge wrote:On June 26 2012 17:11 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 17:05 fortheGG wrote:On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.
Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s. Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams. In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers. Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately. That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth. Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league. most chinese people play mobas / custom WC3 maps because it's seen as casual / sociable and less intense than competitive RTS, so alot more people got into it than BW. WC3 and Dota in China is equivalent to BW in KR, but again usually students are told by parents to study for graduating at a top uni rather than gaming, and if their grades were bad parents often blamed video games and didn't let them play any ways. You also have to realize that the salary for a freshly graduated uni student in china is on the level of lower-middle class, it's really not a sustaineable solution for forming a family, all traditional chinese parents aim for the long run. There is definitely money in esports in china, but it's not seen as legitimate. that is it. Hey did you get my PM?
yes i got it
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On June 30 2012 01:04 mcm_mingge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 00:53 Xiphos wrote:On June 30 2012 00:50 mcm_mingge wrote:On June 26 2012 17:11 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 17:05 fortheGG wrote:On June 26 2012 12:20 Caihead wrote:On June 26 2012 12:06 Woj wrote:
Wow, pretty interesting.
Now maybe all the big BW Koreans will just move to China rather than to SC2 =P The Chinese scene is alot smaller in terms of sponsorship than Korea or even foreign, partially because it's not seen as a legitimate past time or occupation by people from the 60s-70s (who are parents now) who don't allow their children to participate in them. Mostly because of the stigma against video games in China as the educational system is so rigid and strict and it's seen as detrimental for children to play games even as a past time, most parents (including mine) restrict if not outright not allow their children to play games during elementary to high school. And usually they see it as a waste of time going into university / work life any ways. People who are fervant about video games in China usually have to seek solidarity in small privately financed groups that barely get by and hope for corporate sponsorship which is few and far between; they also have to do so against social pressures to conform to a traditional education / work process, video games is simply not seen as a legitimate way of life by traditional parents from the 60s to 70s. Most of the community leaders are people born in the 80s who are much more open about video games as their exposure to them were in high school / university when they had some degree of freedom, rather than the post-90s crowd now who are restricted by an aware parent generation due to the increasing stress and competitiveness of chinese schools and exams. In short I don't see how Chinese (mainland) Esports can take off in the same way as of now, most SC2 progamers you see from China are either from taiwan / hongkong / coastal cities where there is the financial back ground / luxury to pursue these past times, or live in relative hardship when compared with foreign progamers like the ones at EG. It's almost unthinkeable to have a team house in China if you are just starting out as a progamer, even now most of the recognized progamers play from their homes and their clan prescence is via online rather than via same physical location. There would need to be a change in public mentality against the stigma of gamers. Also major korean BW players are all trying to switch over to SC2 for financial stability, China's esports market is so volatile due to stigmas, pirating (adding to the seeming illegitimacy), and lack of regulation. I don't see KR progamers risking it to expand in China, unfortunately. That being said "real" chinese gamers, i.e. ones connecting to the scene rather than just playing single player games they pirated from the internet (not saying that there's anything wrong with that other than the pirating), are very fervent and go out of their way to make things like this possible. So there is hope for domestic growth. Didn't the chinese dota 1 teams have gaming houses? Afaik being a dota progamer in one of the top teams would net you a salary similar to what one would expect as a freashly graduated uni student. From what I have seen of chinese dota events, bw should stand a good chance of having a continuous league. most chinese people play mobas / custom WC3 maps because it's seen as casual / sociable and less intense than competitive RTS, so alot more people got into it than BW. WC3 and Dota in China is equivalent to BW in KR, but again usually students are told by parents to study for graduating at a top uni rather than gaming, and if their grades were bad parents often blamed video games and didn't let them play any ways. You also have to realize that the salary for a freshly graduated uni student in china is on the level of lower-middle class, it's really not a sustaineable solution for forming a family, all traditional chinese parents aim for the long run. There is definitely money in esports in china, but it's not seen as legitimate. that is it. Hey did you get my PM? yes i got it
Yes! Now I can get some additional information!
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EPT
