On April 22 2012 14:23 Rkynick wrote: I don't think a switch to SC2 is inevitable. We've been slowly entering the age of disillusionment for a long time with SC2, as it has become evident that the game isn't as interesting or entertaining as BW.
The BW community needs to do more to reverse BW's image as 'that old game' and reclaim some of the spotlight here, especially when the only thing SC2 has over it is flashier explosions. I would love to watch more BW, but, where is it? Revitalization needs to begin from the bottom up. It would be possible for BW's scene to run in parallel to the SC2 scene instead of one pushing the other out, but this requires BW's scene to grow. Perhaps the strategy should be to intertwine the two games more closely so that the growing number of SC2 viewers could spill over into BW.
In any case, accepting defeat seems silly to me. Brood War is a game that has already stood the test of time impeccably. It is viewed, more or less, as perfected.
SC2 is widely viewed as flawed, and Blizzard does not seem to be working towards fixing it or forging a more solid gameplay. The design strategy is to add more flashy and shiny distractions, but eventually it will fall back into disillusionment. So much so that the community has been taking matters into its own hands for years now, with custom tournament versions of maps that are necessary to fix flaws in the game design and even a movement to change the fundamental setup of the game (FRB) in order to promote more interesting gameplay. These issues in the game will become more and more pronounced as the community's interests move further and further from Blizzard's. Some of these things (e.g. APM) have been fixed, but usually these issues are allowed to drag on for far longer than they should. Bnet2.0, as well, isn't built to harbor a strong community, either. All of these things will weaken SC2 in the long run, and each and every time something isn't quite right, the same thing will be said.
Every time.
"We didn't have this problem in BW."
A constant reminder, perhaps, that SC2 is unlikely to ever step out of the shadow of its predecessor. It is a cold comfort that, if BW dies, it will at least haunt its unworthy heir forever.
Allow me to clarify that I watch both SC2 and BW passionately, and play both, but understand that while I think SC2 is a good game, it is not BW and does not deserve to surmount BW in this fashion. Allow me also to clarify that I think I should stop writing long posts late at night.
I think Sayle's casts got a lot of SC2 people into watching BW(including me). But getting into playing BW is sooo hard, i've spoken about that before. ICCup is really empty, it's hard to find similar skilled players, you can't play on mornings/late at night and even if you play at a peak time it is still hard to get a game if you can't host (I'm talking of my own experiences at D- rank). And thats not even going into the game being hard itself or some people having trouble running it on Windows 7..
This is very well said. I love watching Brood War now that I actually know it exists (I was 6 years old in Japan when it came out, give me a break). But playing it? Holy cow. There are some D rank players that could have gone pro in the first months of the game. This is the culmination of 14 years of strategic evolution. It's extremely difficult to even know where to start. I for one will be happy to find someone as bad as me and just play for fun. I really wish I had been around to see the legends, but oh well.
Yea, I've got to echo this statement. A month or so ago I decided to reinstall BW after watching some Pro-league games. It really is more interesting to watch and you don't have to be a BW vet to tell which game takes more skill. BW pros are truly inspiring. However, after getting kicked from 5-6 custom games because I had a 0-0-0 record, I decided to just play SC2...
I'd definitely want to get into BW again but it's really hard to, not even considering the actual game play difficulty.
I'll third this sentiment. That's certainly got to be a factor...less new players not because they're not interested (heck, SC2 players have gotten curious of late), but because they find it confusing to get started.
I don't, however, know how to resolve the situation. Training camps for noobs? O_o
I don't have anywhere else on the internet to go. I tried out reddit which was good then great then okay and now I hate everything about it. So I guess I'll stick around
I will make stencils with flash jaedong bisu and stork with moralizing undertext respectively: "strive for perfection" / "seize opportunity" / "if your team sux find another team" and "revorevorevo" or somehing like that, and spray them at my university and campus.
On April 22 2012 14:23 Rkynick wrote: I don't think a switch to SC2 is inevitable. We've been slowly entering the age of disillusionment for a long time with SC2, as it has become evident that the game isn't as interesting or entertaining as BW.
The BW community needs to do more to reverse BW's image as 'that old game' and reclaim some of the spotlight here, especially when the only thing SC2 has over it is flashier explosions. I would love to watch more BW, but, where is it? Revitalization needs to begin from the bottom up. It would be possible for BW's scene to run in parallel to the SC2 scene instead of one pushing the other out, but this requires BW's scene to grow. Perhaps the strategy should be to intertwine the two games more closely so that the growing number of SC2 viewers could spill over into BW.
In any case, accepting defeat seems silly to me. Brood War is a game that has already stood the test of time impeccably. It is viewed, more or less, as perfected.
SC2 is widely viewed as flawed, and Blizzard does not seem to be working towards fixing it or forging a more solid gameplay. The design strategy is to add more flashy and shiny distractions, but eventually it will fall back into disillusionment. So much so that the community has been taking matters into its own hands for years now, with custom tournament versions of maps that are necessary to fix flaws in the game design and even a movement to change the fundamental setup of the game (FRB) in order to promote more interesting gameplay. These issues in the game will become more and more pronounced as the community's interests move further and further from Blizzard's. Some of these things (e.g. APM) have been fixed, but usually these issues are allowed to drag on for far longer than they should. Bnet2.0, as well, isn't built to harbor a strong community, either. All of these things will weaken SC2 in the long run, and each and every time something isn't quite right, the same thing will be said.
Every time.
"We didn't have this problem in BW."
A constant reminder, perhaps, that SC2 is unlikely to ever step out of the shadow of its predecessor. It is a cold comfort that, if BW dies, it will at least haunt its unworthy heir forever.
Allow me to clarify that I watch both SC2 and BW passionately, and play both, but understand that while I think SC2 is a good game, it is not BW and does not deserve to surmount BW in this fashion. Allow me also to clarify that I think I should stop writing long posts late at night.
I think Sayle's casts got a lot of SC2 people into watching BW(including me). But getting into playing BW is sooo hard, i've spoken about that before. ICCup is really empty, it's hard to find similar skilled players, you can't play on mornings/late at night and even if you play at a peak time it is still hard to get a game if you can't host (I'm talking of my own experiences at D- rank). And thats not even going into the game being hard itself or some people having trouble running it on Windows 7..
This is very well said. I love watching Brood War now that I actually know it exists (I was 6 years old in Japan when it came out, give me a break). But playing it? Holy cow. There are some D rank players that could have gone pro in the first months of the game. This is the culmination of 14 years of strategic evolution. It's extremely difficult to even know where to start. I for one will be happy to find someone as bad as me and just play for fun. I really wish I had been around to see the legends, but oh well.
Yea, I've got to echo this statement. A month or so ago I decided to reinstall BW after watching some Pro-league games. It really is more interesting to watch and you don't have to be a BW vet to tell which game takes more skill. BW pros are truly inspiring. However, after getting kicked from 5-6 custom games because I had a 0-0-0 record, I decided to just play SC2...
I'd definitely want to get into BW again but it's really hard to, not even considering the actual game play difficulty.
I'll third this sentiment. That's certainly got to be a factor...less new players not because they're not interested (heck, SC2 players have gotten curious of late), but because they find it confusing to get started.
I don't, however, know how to resolve the situation. Training camps for noobs? O_o
I don't think that there is enough active players for your training camps idea.. When i go to op teamliquid on ICCup there is 10 at the absolute max and usually 3-5 people there. I know a lot of the good TLers play on Fish but still i don't think that there would be enough activity.
After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
Competition will get fierce once all the BW pros switch over. More competition = higher levels of play. I'm looking forward to what sc2 can offer with that. Also, I want to see some OSL wins by bisu T_T
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 07:23 nitdkim wrote: Competition will get fierce once all the BW pros switch over. More competition = higher levels of play. I'm looking forward to what sc2 can offer with that. Also, I want to see some OSL wins by bisu T_T[/QUOTE] I find this quote to be somewhat funny for w/e reason.
[QUOTE]On April 23 2012 07:26 Xiphos wrote: [QUOTE]On April 23 2012 07:23 nitdkim wrote: Competition will get fierce once all the BW pros switch over. More competition = higher levels of play. I'm looking forward to what sc2 can offer with that. Also, I want to see some OSL wins by bisu T_T[/QUOTE] I find this quote to be somewhat funny for w/e reason. [/QUOTE] why though?
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
maybe you should play with mbs etc on and win a gsl?
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
maybe you should play with mbs etc on and win a gsl?
Ah perhaps I should. I want to give myself a challenge of making into GM w/o these tools so I can still have good enough of mechanics to play BW aside. Then maybe if HotS turn Zerg into a worthy race for me to pilot, I am going to take the game with a much more serious mindset.
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
Lol I've already done that. Play protoss, don't use chronoboost, don't build warpgates (only use gateways) and use BW BOs. It works very well in Bronze league but up higher I cannot win with that anymore so I stopped.
I loosely follow SC2 and to a lesser extent BW nowadays. I just pray to god those suggested mixed leagues with both BW and SC2 never come to fruition... I don't want to become violent, but some things just aren't right and must be stopped at all costs.
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
I tried this, also I tried to not use Colossus and Sentries.
You. Just. Die.
Doesn't even matter if you have godlike micro, in SC2 you will never have a Tempest dragoon just because the way units are designed.
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
Good luck, i definetly think it's possible to get GM on NA/EU with that. Dde used to play with no hotkeys on rax/fact/starport, but i think now he started hotkeying them.
You should make a blog or something about that, i think it would be intresting to read.
Edit:// Toss does seem impossible with that though because of sentries. I guess you could just blink stalker allin every game.
I will be taking a break from watching PL till BW is back (Because it will come back i'm hoping), and i'll probably still read TL's general / BW forum, because I like those.
Edit: Xiphos That's the dumbest thing ever. Those functions aren't even what made sc2 bad, it was the skill cap on units are way lower and thus makes the game less interesting to watch. There's no way one player can master a single unit the way leta did to wraiths or fantasy to vultures and be the undisputed best at controlling them, because sc2 units don't offer the same amount of control. That's what I miss in sc2, the potentially unlimited amount of control a user can have over a unit, that and the big boom's of BW storms, scarabs, mines, plagues, etc...
I playe sc2 rarely but watch broodwar a lot. When Bw gets out of the air im pretty much done with starcraft as a competitive game, gonna play some games here and there in sc2 but thats it.
On April 23 2012 09:48 Eggm wrote: I will be taking a break from watching PL till BW is back (Because it will come back i'm hoping), and i'll probably still read TL's general / BW forum, because I like those.
Edit: Xiphos That's the dumbest thing ever. Those functions aren't even what made sc2 bad, it was the skill cap on units are way lower and thus makes the game less interesting to watch. There's no way one player can master a single unit the way leta did to wraiths or fantasy to vultures and be the undisputed best at controlling them, because sc2 units don't offer the same amount of control. That's what I miss in sc2, the potentially unlimited amount of control a user can have over a unit, that and the big boom's of BW storms, scarabs, mines, plagues, etc...
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: ...a challenge
On April 23 2012 07:09 Xiphos wrote: After a while of thinking, I might give SC2 a chance. Not spectator-wise but begin to play it competively. It will be a challenge for me because I will not use the MBS, Automines, or Smartcasting for laddering.
maybe you should play with mbs etc on and win a gsl?
...so I can still have good enough of mechanics to play BW aside...
Love the BW scene but just couldn't get in to SCII. I can't count the number of times I've re-watched epic games, read player interviews, powerranks, game analysis etc. Will be watching the odd SCII game, but I plan on moving on and embracing other things (family, career, fitness). BW compliments everything in life and I hope I'm not being too dramatic by saying I feel like I've lost a close friend.
EPT
