Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
Truth. Combine that with the fact that this troll is talking about tens of thousands of foreigners watching a stream, when you've got in the hundreds of thousands watching Brood War ON BROADCAST TELEVISION in Korea.
Also true about esports being dumb as hell. I care only about BW. I don't want to watch SC2, LOL, WC2, CSS, Goldeneye, or whatever the hell these "esports" people play. There is no moving on. Only fratboys with beer guts move on from Call of Duty 10 to Call of Duty 11. Me? I'll keep my "Not An Esports Douchebag" card.
Being this elitist, arrogant, and discriminatory makes you a huge Douchebag, eSports or not.
Discriminatory? Damn straight I'm discriminatory. Watching video games is not an equal opportunity thing for me.
Your bitter that the game you enjoy is unable to fund itself and alternatives being looked at to keep the company a float are intruders to your space. Maybe you understand, but hate that KeSPA and various esport organizations can no longer run BW as nearly of a profitable business as it used to be. Your angry, disappointed, and annoyed. You can still play BW, but it wont carry the same weight it used to. I'm sorry your passion for a game is going unrewarded.
But your only making yourself more angry by belittling fans of other games and supporting outrageous claims of failure for every other game.
I feel like a lot of people just don't get it and it's because of the esports moniker.
I'm not a fan of competetive video games, I'm a fan of Brood War. The only way people can say that BWs time is over or that SC2 is another flavor of a game I should enjoy is because they're viewing this through a spectrum of esports or competetive videogames as a whole whereas my interest in watching SC2 is relative to my interest in watching WC3 or Special Force 2. Which is none at all. When BW is gone I wont watch proleague anymore and if it's split between the two games my interest will be greatly diminished because of a reduction in quantity and quality.
I'm not talking about BW's time being over or you having to like SC2. My whole point was SC2 should not have been a reskinned BW since we already have BW. Thats all. You don't have to enjoy SC2, you still have BW to enjoy.
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: [quote]
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
Truth. Combine that with the fact that this troll is talking about tens of thousands of foreigners watching a stream, when you've got in the hundreds of thousands watching Brood War ON BROADCAST TELEVISION in Korea.
Also true about esports being dumb as hell. I care only about BW. I don't want to watch SC2, LOL, WC2, CSS, Goldeneye, or whatever the hell these "esports" people play. There is no moving on. Only fratboys with beer guts move on from Call of Duty 10 to Call of Duty 11. Me? I'll keep my "Not An Esports Douchebag" card.
Being this elitist, arrogant, and discriminatory makes you a huge Douchebag, eSports or not.
Discriminatory? Damn straight I'm discriminatory. Watching video games is not an equal opportunity thing for me.
Your bitter that the game you enjoy is unable to fund itself and alternatives being looked at to keep the company a float are intruders to your space. Maybe you understand, but hate that KeSPA and various esport organizations can no longer run BW as nearly of a profitable business as it used to be. Your angry, disappointed, and annoyed. You can still play BW, but it wont carry the same weight it used to. I'm sorry your passion for a game is going unrewarded.
But your only making yourself more angry by belittling fans of other games and supporting outrageous claims of failure for every other game.
I feel like a lot of people just don't get it and it's because of the esports moniker.
I'm not a fan of competetive video games, I'm a fan of Brood War. The only way people can say that BWs time is over or that SC2 is another flavor of a game I should enjoy is because they're viewing this through a spectrum of esports or competetive videogames as a whole whereas my interest in watching SC2 is relative to my interest in watching WC3 or Special Force 2. Which is none at all. When BW is gone I wont watch proleague anymore and if it's split between the two games my interest will be greatly diminished because of a reduction in quantity and quality.
I'm not talking about BW's time being over or you having to like SC2. My whole point was SC2 should not have been a reskinned BW since we already have BW. Thats all. You don't have to enjoy SC2, you still have BW to enjoy.
wut? I'm loving watching SPL and Starleague. I'm playing lots of BW on a fun ladder (with lan latency) and loving it. I played SC2 for five months. It was boring.
Sorry, but you're projecting a little bit. It would be sad if BW stopped being broadcast in Korea. But the only thing that would make that happen is Activision shutting it down. Otherwise, it will continue. Even if KESPA got shut down, there's still ISL to watch, and that's fun as hell too. Despite what you little SC2 trolls think, there is a great Brood War community out there.
I'm getting a little tired of SC2 fanboys coming to the Brood War forum and talking crap about a game most of them have never played (let alone enjoyed the hell out of), trying to justify their angst about SC2 trying to become a better game, and putting down Brood War fans. Look, if there is no more Proleague or Starleague, I'm going to stop watching all Starcraft completely unless it's ISL. So you can keep telling me to "move on" or "get with the SC2 program." I'll tell you to fuck off, I have no interest in that shit, and will keep playing Brood War as long as ICCUP and Fish are still running servers. I'm not bitter at all, just tired of idiots coming to this forum and spouting complete nonsense about things they don't understand. Honestly, I wish Teamliquid had completely rebranded itself for SC2 or totally jettinsoned the Brood War side, because having both fan bases on the same site is hugely detrimental.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
Truth. Combine that with the fact that this troll is talking about tens of thousands of foreigners watching a stream, when you've got in the hundreds of thousands watching Brood War ON BROADCAST TELEVISION in Korea.
Also true about esports being dumb as hell. I care only about BW. I don't want to watch SC2, LOL, WC2, CSS, Goldeneye, or whatever the hell these "esports" people play. There is no moving on. Only fratboys with beer guts move on from Call of Duty 10 to Call of Duty 11. Me? I'll keep my "Not An Esports Douchebag" card.
Being this elitist, arrogant, and discriminatory makes you a huge Douchebag, eSports or not.
Discriminatory? Damn straight I'm discriminatory. Watching video games is not an equal opportunity thing for me.
Your bitter that the game you enjoy is unable to fund itself and alternatives being looked at to keep the company a float are intruders to your space. Maybe you understand, but hate that KeSPA and various esport organizations can no longer run BW as nearly of a profitable business as it used to be. Your angry, disappointed, and annoyed. You can still play BW, but it wont carry the same weight it used to. I'm sorry your passion for a game is going unrewarded.
But your only making yourself more angry by belittling fans of other games and supporting outrageous claims of failure for every other game.
I feel like a lot of people just don't get it and it's because of the esports moniker.
I'm not a fan of competetive video games, I'm a fan of Brood War. The only way people can say that BWs time is over or that SC2 is another flavor of a game I should enjoy is because they're viewing this through a spectrum of esports or competetive videogames as a whole whereas my interest in watching SC2 is relative to my interest in watching WC3 or Special Force 2. Which is none at all. When BW is gone I wont watch proleague anymore and if it's split between the two games my interest will be greatly diminished because of a reduction in quantity and quality.
I'm not talking about BW's time being over or you having to like SC2. My whole point was SC2 should not have been a reskinned BW since we already have BW. Thats all. You don't have to enjoy SC2, you still have BW to enjoy.
I'm getting a little tired of SC2 fanboys coming to the Brood War forum and talking crap about a game most of them have never played (let alone enjoyed the hell out of), trying to justify their angst about SC2 trying to become a better game, and putting down Brood War fans. Look, if there is no more Proleague or Starleague, I'm going to stop watching all Starcraft completely unless it's ISL. So you can keep telling me to "move on" or "get with the SC2 program." I'll tell you to fuck off, I have no interest in that shit, and will keep playing Brood War as long as ICCUP and Fish are still running servers.
QFT. Fuck off with your "e-sports" bandwagon, we don't care. If BW dies, then let it rest in peace, and we'll go watch some real man sports like football or baseball or do something else more productive.
It is outrageous to say, "support e-sports by doing XXX", where XXX involves a game we don't like. We don't care how many people like it. However, I think that it is fair to say that if SC2 had managed to keep the concepts that made BW by far the greatest competitive game of all time, then the transition would have happened a long time ago, there would be a lot less hostility towards it, and the scene in korea would be booming by now.
Not so. Both sides are losing ground. So stop telling us to move on from a dying game to a "young and evolving" game (which in truth it's not). If it were a good game it wouldn't need an influx of BW players to boost its legitimacy. However, progamers have to eat, so like it or not, they might have to switch anyway. That's out of our hands.
How would you feel if I asked you to stop watching sc2 and start watching LoL because the latter is even more popular? Or better still, how about I ask you to get your lonely nerd arse off the computer chair, go out, get some sunlight and start engaging in social sports (which are 100x more popular around the world)? You feel good?
If you like to watch sc2, support "e-sports" and all that jazz, okay. But be quiet and go away.
It's funny how this is accepted as good implication for SC2 viewers when in fact it's a bad one since TOP BW players are going to have less time playing SC2 and BW and will produce half-ass games as opposed to them focusing one game.
If you think BW pros are going to save SC2 in korea, think again. The soul heir to BW's greatness isn't going to be SC2, it's going to be LoL and with OGN hell-bent on making it happen, hell, it's happening now. Blizzard was too greedy to see this through back when they tried to file a lawsuit against Kespa and friends. Now, they come licking it's feet.
SC2 is going to die. Just like BW, but BW had a the best run ever. I couldn't say the same for SC2.
On April 07 2012 10:36 Gfire wrote: Seems like that would be totally possible in SC2... If only there were lurkers.
Come to think of it, adding lurkers would probably do well for getting BW fans into SC2. Same goes for the carrier. IIRC, Blizzard didn't want to add the lurker because it's role was filled by the baneling or something?
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
On April 07 2012 12:12 Fuu wrote: Could all the young SC2 fanboys stop coming here defending their game (it will become better, or this new "6m1g" bullshit and things like that), thus derailing the thread ?
Because that's not even the fucking problem. The problem is that SC2, that "we" consider much less achieved and entertaining, is imposed to "us" (read remaining foreign BW fans + majority of the Korean audience, which doesn't seem to enjoy SC2 that much) without any other reason than making more money.
They could do 2 separate leagues and every fan would be happy, but guess why they won't ? Because they know it's highly probable SC2's league would fail in Korea if directly compared to BW's one. Even if the top players are free to choose the league, I guess not so many of them would join the SC2's one by themselves (or maybe the ones struggling to come into the spotlight, like it's already the case anyway).
What pisses me the most is that ridiculously simple (but efficient) Blizzard's marketing plan for that new game :
1.let's loudly announce from the beginning there are 2 more extensions to come, in order to give mainstream players the most important of all things : hope. Can't you see the ridiculous amount of time this argument is brought by SC2 fans, and seems one of the main reason they accept and justify the title's flaws ?
2.then let's design a new game ; even it's a shitty one, or at least far inferior to its illustrious predecessor (should ask people who have played both to a certain extend, read more than casually), there'll be many years of "hope" available, which would be sufficient for Blizzard to justify the exposure (see 3.) and get the fan's backup needed.
3.inject a ton of fresh money to attract all the top nerds who think it's cool to say they "make a living" from a video game, and make the mass goes "WOW, it has to be great".
4.finally, after all the extensions are out and that you've sold x3 more copies than you'd normally have while maintaining an expecting fanbase for years (works even better if the first release is not that good), who cares if the game is still flawed or inferior to its predecessor ; you already want to sell a brand new one.
Only problem here, is that doesn't seem enough to get the Korean's audience attention, used to some high quality show (quality of the hard game, charisma of the players, excitement).
So now, the best way is to force it by mixing both games, thus encouraging top players to switch and larger audience to follow the scene, before getting rid of the old game with ease.
I think we'll never see two separate leagues. I also think it's why I think Esport is a nice dream, since interests of the market (instant profits) and the constant "need" of technological evolution simply work against natural selection of the more suitable game. Even if SC2 was the perfect sequel to BW and really adequate for Esport, it would soon enough be replaced by a brand new title, maybe a less adequate one, and everything would be lost and to build up again.
I can't speak for everyone, but don't assume that just because people don't share the same opinion that they are some inexperienced young fanboy. I played BW on and off since 2001-2002ish. Not uber competitive, but I put enough time in to be able to constuct my own opinions from experience and not hype. I suspect I am not the only one either.
Why? Because Blizzard has been actively trying to kill BW and seems to be succeeding now. You have your answer.
And why are SC2 fans so defensive? Look at the aspects of SC2 the game is praised by its players - most of them happen to be SC2's similarities to BW. Now look at the things people are constantly complaining about - most of them are in stark contrast with BW. Do you think that's a coincidence? It's not about making SC2 a copy of BW, get that idea out of your head. Making SC2 a spiritual successor to BW is about fixing the glaring flaws in gameplay even SC2 players themselves notice.
Like I said, AoX satayed true to the StarCraft formula without copying it. Why would SC2 be unable to achieve the same?
On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:43 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:36 Gfire wrote: Seems like that would be totally possible in SC2... If only there were lurkers.
Come to think of it, adding lurkers would probably do well for getting BW fans into SC2. Same goes for the carrier. IIRC, Blizzard didn't want to add the lurker because it's role was filled by the baneling or something?
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
Thats what you wish. BW became what it is today because it was spectacular from the beginning as a game. If there was any luck involved, it's that BW happened to be balanced and spectator-friendly when the developers didn't even mean to make it so.
By your argument about the importance of the launching "environment", then why isn't SC2 on fire right now? SC2 had started in with some of the best possible circumstances. They had the support of Blizzard. They drummed up tons of fanfare up to its release. The gaming community was already preparing its launch as an esport and they were racing to set up tournaments and finding sponsors for teams. Everyone was dreaming about making SC2 the 21st century god of esports as a modern-day successor to BW. If there was this much preliminary preparation, then why isn't SC2 eating up the korean progaming scene right now? Everything lies in the game, and the game itself.
A decline of BW doesn't mean that SC2's popularity is automatically going to go up. This is something that SC2 fans need to realize. This isn't zero-sum. Secretly rooting that BW is going to disappear and having a fantasy that things are going to become rosy when BW stars switch is totally delusional. There is a real chance that both BW and SC2 could fade. SC2 is limping in korea right now and it's nowhere near what BW was during the early 2000s. These are facts. SC2 fans should be thinking about how to make their own game better as an esport rather than coming to the BW community and making stupid suggestions to "move on" or "get with the program".
Like I said, I picked up BW and played it off and on since 01-02. Futhermore, I do not understand how you mistook my post as flame bait. It was pretty straight forward. I never once talked shit about BW. I sunk more hours then I care to admit. The irony here is I'm not the one who is projecting here.
@maybe
Specfically, what aspects in BW contribute to its greatness as a game versus what aspects are superfluous to its success. I can't really argue with your post since generally speaking SC2 did use BW as a template, but I would like to know what aspects you or the pros consider to be irreplaceable in a great RTS. I'm not disagreeing, I just would like to understand this formula better so we are on the same page.
@white
Am I wrong in assuming that a significant part of BW's success in Korea was due to the tech explosion alongside the boom in PC Bang's which also supported BW? These Bangs acted like constant Lan parties no? BW is a great game in its own right without a doubt, but the unusual (compared to the rest of the world's) success of BW in Korea is not in large part due to this unique environment? It was the same awesome game around the world, but Korea is where it hit big. I repeat, BW is awesome, but I thought the Korean environment at the time is the key reason for why it became as successful as it did in Korea.
@Everyone
I never insinuated or even suggested I am or ever was "rooting" for BW's decline. In fact, I though my posts were pretty objective. Instead, I feel like everyone labeled me some generic SC2 troll and read what they wanted to read, then projected their emotional aggression at me. I've probably played BW as long or longer then a lot of you who are calling me an SC2 kid. Please save your emotional rants for actual trolls and not some fake one you make up to play victim too.
Everybody who argues bw vs sc2 shall shut up now. There are countless threads about that, no need to derail this one any further. Also, don't feed the trolls by responding to them.
I think it is worth mentioning that this should bring probably unprecedented amount of exposure of BroodWar to non-Korean scene. I'm guessing it won't be directed to Korea only - which is what almost all of BroodWar has been so far from what I've gathered. Broodwar is quite distinctly a Korea only phenomenon with only small satellite communities like Team Liquid floating around (which is effectively non-existant by now). Unless they totally mess up the marketing of this - there will potentially be six figures worth on new pairs of eyes on Broodwar. Granted they will be mostly people who follow Starcraft 2, so they are probably only one tenth of an actual human being or so, but ten thousand or so is pretty cool as well maybe?
Considering the pure awesomeness of BroodWar - exposure to it should help bring at least some of the sub-humans closer to the light.
One thing which hasn't been considered so far in this thread is that in our current time, each generation wants to be part of something new. With a few exception, most of "trends" disappear and new ones "emerge" periodically.
This is one of the reason why the future, imo, belongs to Starcraft 2... Because Starcraft 2 history hasn't been written yet, only the introduction... New units, new strats, new stars, future bonjwas, this all belongs to Starcraft 2, BW has been rigid in all these area for quite some time now.
People in this thread need to learn their history.
'Twas Savior killed BW. It's been slowly collapsing ever since, held down a little by Flash sucking the oxygen out of the room. Nothing else, including that super-hot new e-Sports game in Korea everyone's playing, League of Legends, really mattered. Savior was too evil, and Flash was too good.
On April 07 2012 20:04 SiroKO wrote: One thing which hasn't been considered so far in this thread is that in our current time, each generation wants to be part of something new. With a few exception, most of "trends" disappear and new ones "emerge" periodically.
This is one of the reason why the future, imo, belongs to Starcraft 2... Because Starcraft 2 history hasn't been written yet, only the introduction... New units, new strats, new stars, future bonjwas, this all belongs to Starcraft 2, BW has been rigid in all these area for quite some time now.
Since I'm usually accused of being an SC2 > BW type (I'm not), I'm just going to mention that this logic is absurd, and could just as easily apply to pet rocks and pogs, neither of which lasted anywhere near as long as BW.
The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
(Pictured: the BW community)
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:43 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:36 Gfire wrote: Seems like that would be totally possible in SC2... If only there were lurkers.
Come to think of it, adding lurkers would probably do well for getting BW fans into SC2. Same goes for the carrier. IIRC, Blizzard didn't want to add the lurker because it's role was filled by the baneling or something?
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
Thats what you wish. BW became what it is today because it was spectacular from the beginning as a game. If there was any luck involved, it's that BW happened to be balanced and spectator-friendly when the developers didn't even mean to make it so.
By your argument about the importance of the launching "environment", then why isn't SC2 on fire right now? SC2 had started in with some of the best possible circumstances. They had the support of Blizzard. They drummed up tons of fanfare up to its release. The gaming community was already preparing its launch as an esport and they were racing to set up tournaments and finding sponsors for teams. Everyone was dreaming about making SC2 the 21st century god of esports as a modern-day successor to BW. If there was this much preliminary preparation, then why isn't SC2 eating up the korean progaming scene right now? Everything lies in the game, and the game itself.
A decline of BW doesn't mean that SC2's popularity is automatically going to go up. This is something that SC2 fans need to realize. This isn't zero-sum. Secretly rooting that BW is going to disappear and having a fantasy that things are going to become rosy when BW stars switch is totally delusional. There is a real chance that both BW and SC2 could fade. SC2 is limping in korea right now and it's nowhere near what BW was during the early 2000s. These are facts. SC2 fans should be thinking about how to make their own game better as an esport rather than coming to the BW community and making stupid suggestions to "move on" or "get with the program".
A few points.
1. SC2 had the worst possible launching environment in Korea since the existing eSports infrastructure was working in direct opposition to it, which had nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the feud between Blizzard and KeSPA.
2. Clearly if Flash, Jaedong and co. are playing SC2 on OGN in a few months time the popularity of the game in Korea will rise, that's just common sense.
3. Personally, and I suspect this is the case for many SC2 fans, I couldn't give much of a fuck if SC2 is on TV in Korea or not. I'm not Korean, I don't speak Korean, I don't get OGN on my TV. It would be nice to see Flash playing SC2 but I'm not going to lose sleep over whether a game I like is on TV on the other side of the world or not.
4. There are 4 "offline" SC2 tournaments happening this weekend (5 if you include the GSTL finals) with over $100k in prize money and a similar number of viewers. The game's popularity has greatly exceeded BW everywhere except Korea. There is an extremely healthy competitive scene with more tournaments than BW ever had. For all the talk on here about SC2 being a failure it seems to be doing just fine.
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: [quote]
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
Truth. Combine that with the fact that this troll is talking about tens of thousands of foreigners watching a stream, when you've got in the hundreds of thousands watching Brood War ON BROADCAST TELEVISION in Korea.
Also true about esports being dumb as hell. I care only about BW. I don't want to watch SC2, LOL, WC2, CSS, Goldeneye, or whatever the hell these "esports" people play. There is no moving on. Only fratboys with beer guts move on from Call of Duty 10 to Call of Duty 11. Me? I'll keep my "Not An Esports Douchebag" card.
Being this elitist, arrogant, and discriminatory makes you a huge Douchebag, eSports or not.
Discriminatory? Damn straight I'm discriminatory. Watching video games is not an equal opportunity thing for me.
Your bitter that the game you enjoy is unable to fund itself and alternatives being looked at to keep the company a float are intruders to your space. Maybe you understand, but hate that KeSPA and various esport organizations can no longer run BW as nearly of a profitable business as it used to be. Your angry, disappointed, and annoyed. You can still play BW, but it wont carry the same weight it used to. I'm sorry your passion for a game is going unrewarded.
But your only making yourself more angry by belittling fans of other games and supporting outrageous claims of failure for every other game.
I feel like a lot of people just don't get it and it's because of the esports moniker.
I'm not a fan of competetive video games, I'm a fan of Brood War. The only way people can say that BWs time is over or that SC2 is another flavor of a game I should enjoy is because they're viewing this through a spectrum of esports or competetive videogames as a whole whereas my interest in watching SC2 is relative to my interest in watching WC3 or Special Force 2. Which is none at all. When BW is gone I wont watch proleague anymore and if it's split between the two games my interest will be greatly diminished because of a reduction in quantity and quality.
I'm not talking about BW's time being over or you having to like SC2. My whole point was SC2 should not have been a reskinned BW since we already have BW. Thats all. You don't have to enjoy SC2, you still have BW to enjoy.
and youre naive to criticise discrimination . discrimination is. it is life. every action implies not doing some other action, thus discriminating the targets of other courses of action you couldve taken. everything man does is discrimination. using discrimination as a criticism of anything is absurd, nonsensical, incomprehensible.
On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:43 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
Thats what you wish. BW became what it is today because it was spectacular from the beginning as a game. If there was any luck involved, it's that BW happened to be balanced and spectator-friendly when the developers didn't even mean to make it so.
By your argument about the importance of the launching "environment", then why isn't SC2 on fire right now? SC2 had started in with some of the best possible circumstances. They had the support of Blizzard. They drummed up tons of fanfare up to its release. The gaming community was already preparing its launch as an esport and they were racing to set up tournaments and finding sponsors for teams. Everyone was dreaming about making SC2 the 21st century god of esports as a modern-day successor to BW. If there was this much preliminary preparation, then why isn't SC2 eating up the korean progaming scene right now? Everything lies in the game, and the game itself.
A decline of BW doesn't mean that SC2's popularity is automatically going to go up. This is something that SC2 fans need to realize. This isn't zero-sum. Secretly rooting that BW is going to disappear and having a fantasy that things are going to become rosy when BW stars switch is totally delusional. There is a real chance that both BW and SC2 could fade. SC2 is limping in korea right now and it's nowhere near what BW was during the early 2000s. These are facts. SC2 fans should be thinking about how to make their own game better as an esport rather than coming to the BW community and making stupid suggestions to "move on" or "get with the program".
A few points.
1. SC2 had the worst possible launching environment in Korea since the existing eSports infrastructure was working in direct opposition to it, which had nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the feud between Blizzard and KeSPA.
2. Clearly if Flash, Jaedong and co. are playing SC2 on OGN in a few months time the popularity of the game in Korea will rise, that's just common sense.
3. Personally, and I suspect this is the case for many SC2 fans, I couldn't give much of a fuck if SC2 is on TV in Korea or not. I'm not Korean, I don't speak Korean, I don't get OGN on my TV. It would be nice to see Flash playing SC2 but I'm not going to lose sleep over whether a game I like is on TV on the other side of the world or not.
4. There are 4 "offline" SC2 tournaments happening this weekend (5 if you include the GSTL finals) with over $100k in prize money and a similar number of viewers. The game's popularity has greatly exceeded BW everywhere except Korea. There is an extremely healthy competitive scene with more tournaments than BW ever had. For all the talk on here about SC2 being a failure it seems to be doing just fine.
you cant put the wagon before the horse. Progamers are a RESULT of a game being popular, not the other way around. PERIOD.
EPT
