On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: [quote]
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
Thats what you wish. BW became what it is today because it was spectacular from the beginning as a game. If there was any luck involved, it's that BW happened to be balanced and spectator-friendly when the developers didn't even mean to make it so.
By your argument about the importance of the launching "environment", then why isn't SC2 on fire right now? SC2 had started in with some of the best possible circumstances. They had the support of Blizzard. They drummed up tons of fanfare up to its release. The gaming community was already preparing its launch as an esport and they were racing to set up tournaments and finding sponsors for teams. Everyone was dreaming about making SC2 the 21st century god of esports as a modern-day successor to BW. If there was this much preliminary preparation, then why isn't SC2 eating up the korean progaming scene right now? Everything lies in the game, and the game itself.
A decline of BW doesn't mean that SC2's popularity is automatically going to go up. This is something that SC2 fans need to realize. This isn't zero-sum. Secretly rooting that BW is going to disappear and having a fantasy that things are going to become rosy when BW stars switch is totally delusional. There is a real chance that both BW and SC2 could fade. SC2 is limping in korea right now and it's nowhere near what BW was during the early 2000s. These are facts. SC2 fans should be thinking about how to make their own game better as an esport rather than coming to the BW community and making stupid suggestions to "move on" or "get with the program".
A few points.
1. SC2 had the worst possible launching environment in Korea since the existing eSports infrastructure was working in direct opposition to it, which had nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the feud between Blizzard and KeSPA.
2. Clearly if Flash, Jaedong and co. are playing SC2 on OGN in a few months time the popularity of the game in Korea will rise, that's just common sense.
3. Personally, and I suspect this is the case for many SC2 fans, I couldn't give much of a fuck if SC2 is on TV in Korea or not. I'm not Korean, I don't speak Korean, I don't get OGN on my TV. It would be nice to see Flash playing SC2 but I'm not going to lose sleep over whether a game I like is on TV on the other side of the world or not.
4. There are 4 "offline" SC2 tournaments happening this weekend (5 if you include the GSTL finals) with over $100k in prize money and a similar number of viewers. The game's popularity has greatly exceeded BW everywhere except Korea. There is an extremely healthy competitive scene with more tournaments than BW ever had. For all the talk on here about SC2 being a failure it seems to be doing just fine.
you cant put the wagon before the horse. Progamers are a RESULT of a game being popular, not the other way around. PERIOD.
And the game is popular, hence the dozens of SC2 pro gamers around the world.
Avoiding the entire BW vs SC2 discussion I'm just going to comment on the latest bit of information, which is the interview from Team 8's coach. (It really should be in the OP)
I like his attitude that people will complain regardless, cause it's true, so they're just going to go with trying it out. If BW was dropped completely I'd argue there'd be the same if not more of a shitstorm than there is with this combined league format. It's pretty clear that, for obvious reasons, they've got to do something with the Starcraft franchise if they want to keep it around and I don't blame them for attempting to warm the fans up to it.
I'm glad that, at least to him, there's no problem with those who make the switch attending foreign tournaments. It'd be another great thing to brag about for players who are able to travel the world and see different countries while still playing games they enjoy. They used to have that but with WCG's drop of BW and further it's drop of competitive games period there's really not many opportunities (or rather, none at all) to travel overseas for these guys anymore. Personally I'd probably go nuts seeing some of these guys at an MLG. I don't think many fans would pass up that opportunity, even if they hate SC2. Bisu at an MLG without having to drop $2k on flights? Fuck yeah I'm going. Maybe their cooperation with foreign leagues will even lead to some BW show matches overseas.
The most interesting part, and what I've taken away most from this interview is that according to Coach Ju, his players (including Jaedong) actually find SC2 FUN. I wouldn't want them to play something they don't enjoy and if they find it fun I'm sure many others will too. (I had a lot more to this but ultimately decided to remove it to avoid further retarded discussion about opinions and SC2 vs BW crap. The main point is they find it fun.)
I'm still a little worried about the quality of the games but even so whatever comes from SC2's integration with KeSPA I'll probably watch. I like the game, so I'm absolutely excited to finally see these guys dig in. I like BW too, so I won't be bored having to sit through two different games. I don't expect everyone to like it, nor would I ask that of people, but I'm glad these guys are looking after their future considering the current state their careers are in. Sure, some people will leave, but I'd argue that a lot more people (at least in the foreign world where I can communicate, hopefully it picks up in Korea as well) will have eyes on these guys as they enter the scene and in the end I think enjoying this with other people is the best part about watching Starcraft.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
I wouldn't say Dota 2 is bigger than sc2 right now. And investing time into LoL or Dota2? The games are completely different from Starcraft lol, i don't think the skillset from BW would make them a top player.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
I wouldn't say Dota 2 is bigger than sc2 right now. And investing time into LoL or Dota2? The games are completely different from Starcraft lol, i don't think the skillset from BW would make them a top player.
I believe in stork becoming a great LoL player more than a Sc2 player . LoL Byung Goooooooo !!!!!!!
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
Bolded the part for you, and again you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
Bolded the part for you, and again you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
"but since the game is fun" not Jaedong and Co say game is fun than again it's probably Coach ju trying to get people interested in sc2 but meh I ain't falling for it.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
Haha, so much bitterness.
There are 10 SC2 players and 0 LoL teams who have made over $100k in prize money.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
(Pictured: the BW community)
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now. -Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc. -Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind. -On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes. -When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time. -His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning, -On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule. -He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors. -His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction. -His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly. -How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it. -Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros. -Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance. -Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.
I read the whole interview again no where Do I see Coach ju stating that jaedong thinks sc2 is fun . Although I like his optimistic idea that sc2 is going to be a bigger a game on a global perspective when LoL and Dota 2 are growing in huge numbers . Preferably I would want my players to invest their time in LoL or Dota 2 since the scene is much bigger and stronger right now than sc2.
▶ 많은 이들이 궁금해 하는 질문이다. 이제동의 스타2 실력은 어느 정도인가? "확실히 연습해보면 잘했던 선수들이 잘하는 것 같다. 감각이나 매크로 능력이 뛰어나다. 아직은 익숙지 않아 전략이라든지 이런 부분에 있어 VOD 등을 분석하고 있다. 금방금방 치고 올라갈 것 같다. 처음에는 적응이 안돼서 힘들어했는데, 게임이 재밌으니 선수들이 점점 적응해 점수 올리기 쟁탈전도 하고 있다. 새로운 아이디로 마스터를 찍으려 하기도 한다. 단축키는 바꿀 수 있기 때문에 크게 불편하진 않다. 하지만 전개속도가 빠른 스타2를 하다가 스타를 하면 랙 걸린 느낌이 나기도 한다. 지금은 스타2를 집중적으로 하고 있다. 스타1을 병행하면서 처음엔 어려웠지만 지금은 다들 적응한 상태다."
-How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:43 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
Thats what you wish. BW became what it is today because it was spectacular from the beginning as a game. If there was any luck involved, it's that BW happened to be balanced and spectator-friendly when the developers didn't even mean to make it so.
By your argument about the importance of the launching "environment", then why isn't SC2 on fire right now? SC2 had started in with some of the best possible circumstances. They had the support of Blizzard. They drummed up tons of fanfare up to its release. The gaming community was already preparing its launch as an esport and they were racing to set up tournaments and finding sponsors for teams. Everyone was dreaming about making SC2 the 21st century god of esports as a modern-day successor to BW. If there was this much preliminary preparation, then why isn't SC2 eating up the korean progaming scene right now? Everything lies in the game, and the game itself.
A decline of BW doesn't mean that SC2's popularity is automatically going to go up. This is something that SC2 fans need to realize. This isn't zero-sum. Secretly rooting that BW is going to disappear and having a fantasy that things are going to become rosy when BW stars switch is totally delusional. There is a real chance that both BW and SC2 could fade. SC2 is limping in korea right now and it's nowhere near what BW was during the early 2000s. These are facts. SC2 fans should be thinking about how to make their own game better as an esport rather than coming to the BW community and making stupid suggestions to "move on" or "get with the program".
A few points.
1. SC2 had the worst possible launching environment in Korea since the existing eSports infrastructure was working in direct opposition to it, which had nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the feud between Blizzard and KeSPA.
2. Clearly if Flash, Jaedong and co. are playing SC2 on OGN in a few months time the popularity of the game in Korea will rise, that's just common sense.
3. Personally, and I suspect this is the case for many SC2 fans, I couldn't give much of a fuck if SC2 is on TV in Korea or not. I'm not Korean, I don't speak Korean, I don't get OGN on my TV. It would be nice to see Flash playing SC2 but I'm not going to lose sleep over whether a game I like is on TV on the other side of the world or not.
4. There are 4 "offline" SC2 tournaments happening this weekend (5 if you include the GSTL finals) with over $100k in prize money and a similar number of viewers. The game's popularity has greatly exceeded BW everywhere except Korea. There is an extremely healthy competitive scene with more tournaments than BW ever had. For all the talk on here about SC2 being a failure it seems to be doing just fine.
This thread is about the domestic korean scene and kespa's apparant interest in combining BW and SC2 in a fusion proleague and I was looking at this solely from the perspective of the korean gaming community, not the foreign scene. And SC2 had a bad launching environment because the existing infastructure was working in "direct opposition" to it? What? How? Are you suggesting that kespa and the BW professionals were actively working to discourage the growth of SC2 as an esport in korea? My point was that "infastructure" or "support" is a stupid excuse for why SC2 hasn't become as exciting as BW. BW started from scratch.
If the foreign scene is happy with their $100k prize money and viewership and believe that SC2 is a success, then thats great and that is something everyone should be happy about. But I wasn't looking at the foreign scene. Whats at issue here the korean scene and the fate of BW and kespa's stupid idea that combining SC2 in proleague is going to help BW and SC2 grow in korea. SC2 doesn't carry significant domestic interest so the idea that SC2 in proleague is going to somehow increase viewership sounds far-fetched and thats the issue that many BW fans have. BW is significantly more interesting than SC2 as a spectator sport. The enthusiasm and mainstream popularity gap between the two games in korea is all you need to compare to verify that. This is why BW watchers are angry that they have to watch something they are uninterested in.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
wow so much anger in that thread.. jesus no wonder all the newcomers get scared away from BW
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
Read my post again. I didn't say that the BW forums treat newcomers bad, just that some threads (like the one we are in) can give a very negative impression about the BW community.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
wow so much anger in that thread.. jesus no wonder all the newcomers get scared away from BW
Are we all reading the same thread? He gets advice, everyone seems just peachy and I don't see any anger here.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
Says a guy who's signature reads:
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Oh the irony indeed...
PS. Glassface they were being sarcastic for some god forsaken reason.
On April 07 2012 13:13 supernovamaniac wrote:[spoiler]
On April 07 2012 13:00 JohnnyPG wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:35 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:27 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 12:09 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 11:57 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:43 Xiphos wrote:
On April 07 2012 10:36 Gfire wrote: Seems like that would be totally possible in SC2... If only there were lurkers.
Come to think of it, adding lurkers would probably do well for getting BW fans into SC2. Same goes for the carrier. IIRC, Blizzard didn't want to add the lurker because it's role was filled by the baneling or something?
Noo....Blizzard didn't add the lurkers because they want people to play an ENTIRE DIFFERENT game. Which makes us BW fans aggravated because it is a slap in the face to the predessor. Now they realized this mistake and is trying to fix the damage down by adding in some cheap version of the lurker. They call this the "swarm host" that essentially replicate teh same role as the lurker. And oh by the way, they are doing the same to the Defilers.
How is it a slap in the face to BW? Blizzard tried to create another SC game with different units with mixed results. I don't want another BW. I have BW and I like it the way it is. If I want to play BW, I would play my BW. If thier had to be an SC2, I would want them to experiment and push the limits of unit design and feel out what works and what doesn't. Yes, a unit may fail ultimately, or not be like a BW counterpart, but you can always add and remove units. Patch them too.
I don't want to get into the mechanical debates that plague SC2 vs. BW discussions, but I am just saying I do like Blizzard trying new things versus attempting to reskin old units and sell it as a new game.
You and I have different expectation on the game (SC2). You want something that suit your taste of diversity. I prefer them to keep the original BW flavor. While they did fulfill your thirst, they only further starved out mine with all the old aspects vanished in thin air. Many of these drove BW to the great height and reputation that it is currently.
All I was asking is for them to re-create the gritty, inter spacial atmosphere touch while having interchangeable strategies between the two of the same brotherhood with the addition of tools that takes out any tediousness. Blizzard did manage to impress me with a mere 1/3 in terms of design. That 1/3 is simply not enough for me to fully appreciate the brand spanking new kid on the block.
By the way, I am totally fine for them to introduce newer units as long they don't deter or defile any of my previous experience with the franchise's firstborn.
We still have BW though. Its not changed. I don't understand why you would want a clone of what already exists and is successful. The way I see it. I have 2 SC experiences now. You have the BW flavor and SC2 flavor, I can enjoy either or depending on what I feel like. Also, SC2 will likely just keep on being refined, and while not ending up like BW it will still have that competitive edge. I now have choices.
I don't want two experiences. I want one single super special awesome game.
Well, I dont know what to tell you man, I love BW, and I love SC2, but BW's time is done. Flat out dude, no matter which way you slice your elitism, his elitism, or their elitism, it is blatantly obvious at this point, you can sit there with your hardcore BW buddies and praise BW and love BW (which is completely and totally ok, BW rocks) but the money and the competitive scene is moving towards something new (LoL and SC2).
To be honest, after a DECADE of its dominance, why in the hell would you honestly want a carbon copy with some new bells and whistles?
Celebrate its life and its ridiculous amount of success, and then move along to the next chapter of Starcraft, or leave period. I'm watching IPL right now, and earlier there was about 70K viewers, there was roughly only 20K viewers for the FINALS of the last BW tournament my friend, in the IPL (not even close to the biggest or most popular SC2 tournament there is) it is widely expected to hit 100K people for the finals.
Jaedong, the fucking Tyrant himself is switching and preparing for his switch, your honestly not going to follow the Tyrant because "Well, theres just not enough micro" when the game is still young and evolving? Dude, the expansion is going to raise the skill ceiling 20 fold.
And you are honestly delusional enough to believe that once The God, Bisu, and The Tyrant all switch over, SC2 isnt going to pick up HUGE amounts of traction in Korea? Lawl...LAWL!!! Dont be foolish.
Come on guys, get the fuck with the program, celebrate BW for its unheard of and (probably unless you're talking about LoL) unparalleled success.
...And then move on to the next Chapter in Starcraft's life cycle.
...Or get the fuck out, really simple.
SC2 failed at launch, and did not influence any change in Korean culture whatsoever. Top players switching would only draw some fans into the SC2 scene, but at this rate it is never going to have huge impact as BW did back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When BoxeR (biggest e-sports icon) switched from BW to SC2, or even NaDa, did every single BoxeR and NaDa fan switch to SC2? Nope.
BW's success had less to do with the game and more to do with the environment it was launched in. SC2 may or may not be eventually as successful as BW, but either way it really can't go down the same path as BW. BW got really lucky with its release window in Korea relative to a lot of happenings.
And I stated how lucky BW was so many times after that particular thread because the person didn't understand why SC2 failed while BW launched.
Please read the whole thread up to that point before responding.
On April 07 2012 20:33 Ribbon wrote: The more I read this thread, the angrier I get at Brood War's alleged fans.
This is, quite literally, Brood War's last chance. KeSPA is going to try to sell it to the foreign world. I don't know if it's to try to save BW by leaching off SC2's foreign scene and then re-split, or if this is the status quo, or if it's a transition, or if it's all just rumors and they're going alternating BW/LoL.
Why do I not see any attempt at going "Hey, we need to show our support for BW now".
Why don't I see any BW fans going "We need to use this as an opportunity to resell BW to the foreign world, because our game is superior and there's a bunch of people with money who don't know it".
For the first time ever, the people in charge of BW are looking to the foreign scene as a potential to make money. This is BW's last chance, and KeSPA is putting it in our hands. This is the time for BW fans to get all evangelical. To post about BW on their facebook walls. To talk about it at work (everyone at my job knows I'm the Starcraft guy!). To try to organize little get-togethers. To find a barcraft in their area and convince them to do a BW night. To do, basically, everything the SC2 fans did to make the game big that BW fans attribute to Blizzard's pushing SC2 as an esport in the west, which they fucking didn't. And then write KeSPA incessantly saying "Hey. We exist! Sell BW to us!"
But I don't see any of that.
I see people saying they intend to leave BW? A bunch of Newt Gingritches leaving their cancer-ridden spouses because supporting it now is too hard? I mean, holy shit, KeSPA might want people in the foreign scene to PAY to watch BW. Unthinkable, right?
That's why you're all fair-weather fans. You're leaving the minute things get too haaaaarrrrrd. You never really loved BW, if that's as deep as it goes. You just loved feeling superior. And now you'll abandon BW rather than see it's purity besmirched, as if Savior didn't leave that slut in a Vegas back ally.
For god's sake, Reach up and take some action in your lives. Start campaigning to save BW, start campaigning to spread BW awareness and just accept the 99 morons and keep the one guy you get out of a hundred. For the first time ever someone is making a big effort to attach BW to foreign money, and you are just completely pissing it away and acting smug about it.
1. A lot of potential sponsers probably don't like the sound of thier teams/investments not winning games because of some betting website. Good job sAviOr.
2. We see the writing on the wall, if Kespa gives up then it is over. It isn't even in our hands, remember estro? Yea good job blizzard. Seriously no one wants to sponser a game when the scene is constantly threatened by that stupid shit. Not to mention that a lot of the sponsors seem to only care about Korea.
3. Kespa has had issues with charging money for tickets in the past.
4. The Foriegn BW scene died because they could not compete with korea. Look at sc2, remember that period where MLG was more popular than GSL? Why? O yea because foreign sc2 fans prefer drama. I haven't followed sc2 recently but it is probably still the same. Have you even read crap about foreigners being banned by kespa? Ridiculous.
5. On that note all the "fair weathered fans" have already left and moved onto sc2. Do I really need to name names for you? All thats left are people who just like the game, and once again it doesn't matter how much support we show because of the aforementioned reasons,
6. Western ESPORTS is and has always been one of the biggest jokes ever. A lot tournaments have never paid out in the past and I suspect quite a few don't payout for sc2 either.
7. Have you ever even followed the sc2 community? They're all preaching to the choir, when was the last time you saw growth in sc2? (boost due to players just discovering streams don't count). A ladder anxiety thread is basically a bunch of sc2 players talking about courageous they are and how they are unique snowfalkes with an abnormally huge desire for self improvement. Give me a fkn break.
8.Some will leave because we've tried sc2 and don't like it. What sc2 fans need to understand is that aside from baneling marine all the micro videos they post don't really ellicit anything from someone who has seen BW. For me, the micro and strategic aspect of sc2 just has no beauty. This has been discussed to death already so we will just leave it at that.
The only reason I come here really is to look at the VODs and get links for streams. I really do not like this ESPORTS bullshit, I feel as if Blizzard using it to try and make people feel like they're part of something bigger instead of focusing on making a good game. Bowder is such a petty developer that he probably won't ever listen to any legit critic anyway.
DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS????? If you want BW go play BW (paraphrased).
O yea you might want to read Sayle's old post re how they try to inject some life back into the scene. People just don't care, NOT because they're inferior/fear the great challenges of the superior RTS, BW just can't attract western fans at this point in time.
I gotta say... the attitude of some of the BW fans towards guys that are new to the game isn't helping the growth of the western scene either. If you just scan the surface of the community and dont go in very deep, you could think that the BW forums is a bunch of backwards, hate filled elitists that try to lock themselves from the reality. I know that it isn't that way (and the people that I'm playing BW with certainly aren't), but some of the posts in this thread are so agressive and hateful that it's just not funny anymore. I've often heard people arguing that they "don't care about SC2", but soon after, they get massively enraged and hate about a game the supposedly don't care about.
If we act everytime like this everytime someone new comes in, then the BW scene surely is doomed.
Read my post again. I didn't say that the BW forums treat newcomers bad, just that some threads (like the one we are in) can give a very negative impression about the BW community.
This thread here is not about the foreign community. It's about the idea of BW pros playing SC2 and it's implication in both scene. And that implication is destruction of BOTH. This is the only chance SC2 has to be big in Korea, GSL is shit compared to PL/OSL in Korea. Korean BW premier E-Sport proscene was bound to die because of it's history (Savior Match Fixing & Law Suit & Kpop) and the fact that OGN wanting to make LoL their premiere proscene (I'm actually surprised that Kespa isn't trying to expand to LoL).
I want to ask the BW fans here: Are you ready to see your favorite progamers play half-assed BW and half-assed SC2?
Now to the SC2 fans here: Do you think they'll play top notch SC2 games when they are practicing both BW and SC2?
Because that's whats going to happen here. SC2's only chance to be big in Korea will be a Separate proleague with it's current top players playing for Kespa/OGN. BW, on the other hand, well.. Kespa aren't really big on catering fans especially dwindling number of fans because they might have out-grown BW or moved on to other source of entertainment (MMOs and Kpop).
EPT
. LoL Byung Goooooooo !!!!!!!
