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On October 30 2010 12:27 nayumi wrote:Nada is the GOAT of Brood War. I don't see how one could debate against this. + Show Spoiler +BoxeR is Jesus Christ tho
lmao...made me laugh hard :D
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yeah so iloveoov did have a ridiculous period of domination, but so did savior and jaedong..
and jaedong's was longer, much longer.
look at W-L history in tlpd I think anyone should agree that jaedong's history is the most impressive
so i guess it's kind of weird but technically i think the most dominant players are jaedong and flash lol
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Nada is the most successful, while Boxer was the most influential. So in terms of actually playing the game and winning, Nada is the best. In terms of defining what Brood War esports is, Boxer wins.
Reach is more manly than both of them, though.
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
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I'm a Boxer fanboy, but there's nothing to argue here: Nada > Boxer in achievements.
However, I'd rather watch Boxer 1 time than Nada 1000 times. <33333 the emperor
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On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On October 30 2010 21:43 cuppatea wrote:
Out of curiosity, will any of the BW fans who have little to no general interest in SC2 be watching the Boxer vs Nada GSL match coming up on Tuesday?
I think I will. But lol, Boxer must do something to save SC1 scene. I won't freaking do anything towards SC2 (buy, play, watch, etc.) if they don't keep it alive. Seriously. Brood War is holy ground imo, and so is Korea for Brood War. If they want play SC1 they must be allowed to. Any speaks about them "stealing" something from Blizzard is nothing but bullshit.
If you saw Leta/Hiya and Jaedong/Light matches, you must know that SC1 scene is by no means "dead" or "dying".
So Lim Yo Hwan, if you ever accidentally read this, please save the SC1 scene. Be the true God of SC. You know... it's an attribute of gods to save something  ))
Btw, lol, server owners must prepare for massive server crashes.
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On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
lol i just saw period where he went 25-4 (W-L) between may/09 and july/09 that's ridiculous!
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On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
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I've always liked watching Nada more than Boxer.
But Oov, imo.
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Between Nada and boxer, I say boxer. He made the BW scene what it is today. He propelled professional gaming in Korea and the guy is still playing SC2 today. Nada is just another great player, like Jaedong, Julyzerg, or Oov. Boxer is seriously gosu.
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On October 30 2010 16:57 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 16:03 dukethegold wrote:On October 30 2010 13:34 SimonB wrote:On October 30 2010 13:21 dukethegold wrote:On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote:
I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential. I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history. Am I? Boxer had those 11 months or so back in 2000, but after that Nada defined terran. Pretty quickly you saw all terrans look more and more like Nada. Oov brought another step forward away from Boxer, and that was that for his gimmicky style. Today, you can look at a Nada game from '01-'03 and you can see the roots of Flash's style, but you look at a Boxer game from then or before and it's completely alien to modern SC (or really anything from the last five years). Boxer means only slightly more to me than Garimto (which really shouldn't be an insult, but most Boxer fanboys will take it as such). First of all, wtf are you talking about? Boxer was on top of Kespa ranking for 17 MONTHS STRAIGHT! THE LONGEST IN HISTORY! Nada only had 16 months straight on top of Kespa, Savior only managed to stay on Kespa #1 for 8 months straight, while your homie boy Flash only overtook Jaedong since this year's march! (Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58797 ) Second of all, have you ever heard something called "progression"? Of course the gameplay would not remain the same throughout the entire decade! But do you even know what the hell Boxer invented for Terran? He invented the MOTHERFUCKING TERRAN WALL IN! He also was the very first to use dropship play against anybody! Without him, Terran v.s. Terran would be a one and half hour tank v.s. tank into suiciding tank into battlecruiser turtlefest into snooze. That alone would kill the brood war scene before it became a proper sport! He also was the FIRST to demonstrate micro play! Prior to that it was just army v.s. army. He brought MECHANICS to Brood War and made it look like something of a competitive sport. He was playing Terran before the balance overhauling 1.08 patch and when Terran was universally considered to be a trash race. He changed that and inspired a new generation of Terran players. Can you even imagine a game succeeding at its infancy when the general public considers one of the three playable races to be unplayable? He is the father, the Emperor of Terran because he was the one who laid down the basic mechanics and builds necessary to win against other races. Whoever came after him, be it Nada, Oov or Flash build upon those basics, the basics to enable a Terran to win a game. You got a difficult case ahead of you if you want to argue that the modifier is more influential than the inventor. Gimmicky? I will have you know that before Boxer, gimmicky doesn't even exist in brood war. He opened up the minds of millions and made future players realize that there are endless possibilities in brood war. I assume you are the type of person who likes to watch standard play v.s. standard play, mirror build v.s. mirror build. I have no problem with that. But let me tell you, I'd shoot myself if somebody force me to watch a show consisted of nothing but that, and I think a large percentage of bw fans would agree with me. Now then, I don't think you know your starcraft lore AT ALL. Nada and your homie boy Flash can be Warcraft 3 players instead and their lack of presence would not affect Brood War at all in comparison to Boxer's contribution. Let me make this clear, without Boxer, there is no "pro" in professional e-sport scene. Boxer was amongst the very first to play Starcraft in a competitive manner. Granted, Nada was also there, but he was doing next to nothing notable during Boxer's reign. Nada peaked later on. While everybody else was playing the game, Boxer was the person with the help of OGN to make Brood War KNOWN to the mainstream public, which does not mean your adolescent year old nerd population, but means the population that include your father and your grandfather and great grandfather. He made Brood War's presence known to the public by appearing on numerous television shows, radio shows, National Assembly, Air Force Academy, meeting with the politicians to advocate for government support, and made a deep impression upon the general public, making brood war known the people across different generations. That's why Boxer is the world's ONLY e-sport ICON. Not idol like your homie boy Flash, but ICON. Because he is the sole embodiment of e-sport and the sole bridge between e-sport and the mainstream. I have friends who can't even beat the A.I. in brood war but know who Boxer is and I know some Korean adults in their 30s who know who Boxer is. Without Boxer, you can say there is no professional BW. Not to mention that Boxer literally founded SKT from scratch and was the primary cause behind the creation of ACE. His contributions are so numerous that it is undeniable that he is the most influential starcraft player in history. I recommend people who know nothing about Boxer to read this article: http://senseofstar.blogspot.com/2006/11/slayersboxer.html This thread is not about who is more influential or the more important e-sports figure, but who is the better player (presumably during their "reign".) I think the OP is pretty ambiguous and frankly a poor one, myself. A blase statement like "greatest of all time" results in a lot of needless arguing that leads nowhere.
I was responding to SimonB who claims that Boxer is no more influential than Nada or barely edges out Garimto. Also, if you read OP's post, he is not implying that he is asking for the most skillful player in history (which would obviously be Flash), but rather the greatest player of all time. The very definition of G.O.A.T. is up to debate as it is an urban term originally applied to Tennis. The very definition of "who is a better player" is also up to debate. Is an imitator who plays standard perfectly better than the person who created the standard play? Should G.O.A.T. be measured by Kespa ranking, number of titles or even APM? Should those "practice bonjwas" ever be considered?
OP was vague, but SimonB's post was pretty clear on what he was trying to say.
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How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
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I like to look at how good players can be in the long-term. NaDa and Boxer both have ridiculous longevity in the scene. But Boxer was hurt by the draft and his unusually old age. When he made his last Starleague final in November 2005, he was 25 years old. He was 20 when he won his first OSL. Age matters in this game, for whatever reason that's not worth getting into. But consider this.
After 25 year old Boxer, the next oldest player to make a final was 24 y/o Nal_ra. After that, it's 22 (also the oldest age to win it). So yes, NaDa has more wins, finals, Ro16 appearances, but imagine if Boxer had been born later. He was 18 when Broodwar first hit store shelves. Flash won an OSL when he was 15. So while it is impressive that NaDa made his last MSL Ro8 in 2009, about 7 years after he won his first MSL, consider that he was not as old then as Boxer was in 2005 when he made his last final.
Enough age banter. Boxer is the greatest in influence, NaDa in overall sucesses and ability to be a contender for almost the entirety of last decade (87 months in Kespa top 30). As for who was the best in a short period of time, defined arbitrarily, it's Flash or iloveoov or Savior or NaDa. They all had more titles than Boxer in a similar amount of time. They all had ridiculous win rates. They all did it while other dominate forces were present. NaDa, iloveoov, and Savior all had their starleague wins OVERLAP each other at some point. And yet they were still able to win more starleagues than Boxer. For that reason, I can't name Boxer as the greatest ever. I'll say he was the most influential, but not greatest. If the MSL (KPGA) started a year or so earlier than it did then maybe he would have won them all concurrently with his OSL wins. And that's why I brought up age. But it's all hypothetical, and so Boxer doesn't have it.
NaDa is your greatest player ever. But not necessarily your favourite. I'm rather partial to Stork myself.
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Nada's hands kept him afloat, and he was able to adjust to the newer styles of play, but Oov's strategies remained very relevant past his dominant title streak into his coaching. I value the strategic influence, ability to maintain relevance in the game, and titles when talking about greatest of all time. Boxer was a fan favorite and the posterchild of Starcraft, but in retrospect he had much less strategic insight into the game and refused to adjust. Also if Flash picks up another title this year and ties Nada I think he should be considered the greatest player, he succeeded in a far more difficult period of Starcraft while bringing about more innovations.
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The GOAT was an extremely good basketball player that never went pro, and there is a movie about him. This means that a GOAT would be the best player you have ever seen that didn't go pro. Nada,
Boxer, and Oov would definitely not qualify as a GOAT. Maybe i'm thinking of a different GOAT, but that is always the definition that comes to mind when i here people being compared to the GOAT
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On October 31 2010 02:06 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
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On October 31 2010 03:24 Linx_101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 02:06 Sentenal wrote:On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL. Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
But that ABSOLUTE dominance really doesn't say much about the players themselves. It could simply mean that the player got lucky and nobody else was good.
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On October 31 2010 03:28 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 03:24 Linx_101 wrote:On October 31 2010 02:06 Sentenal wrote:On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL. Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is). Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3. In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
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On October 31 2010 03:32 Linx_101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 03:28 dukethegold wrote:On October 31 2010 03:24 Linx_101 wrote:On October 31 2010 02:06 Sentenal wrote:On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL. Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is). Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3. In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork. Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
You simply further my point that Jaedong never had a dominant control over the entire scene for any significant period of time.
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On October 31 2010 03:35 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 03:32 Linx_101 wrote:On October 31 2010 03:28 dukethegold wrote:On October 31 2010 03:24 Linx_101 wrote:On October 31 2010 02:06 Sentenal wrote:On October 31 2010 01:56 travis wrote:On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote:
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time. there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009 Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL. Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is). Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3. In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork. Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash. And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
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EPT
