On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
Another factor is the longevity of the player. Nada lasted 87 months straight on Kespa top 30 while Boxer had a 17 months streak as Kespa #1. Flash achieved more than anybody else in the shortest period of time, but his career, impact and dominance is not long enough yet to qualify him as G.O.A.T.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
Another factor is the longevity of the player. Nada lasted 87 months straight on Kespa top 30 while Boxer had a 17 months streak as Kespa #1. Flash achieved more than anybody else in the shortest period of time, but his career, impact and dominance is not long enough yet to qualify him as G.O.A.T.
The KESPA ranking is not a good measure of how good someone is. It takes forever for someone to drop off it for one thing.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
EVERYONE thought that Savior would rape Bisu in their finals. Bisu won 3-0. Are you telling me that Savior wasn't dominant in the period leading up to that?
Boxer is the most famous, Nada has the most titles
FLASH is basically the best of all time though, and considering he just got a "bonjwa" status from such a long period of no bonjwas this is proof. (He will most likely win most titles if we get a few more seasons)
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
EVERYONE thought that Savior would rape Bisu in their finals. Bisu won 3-0. Are you telling me that Savior wasn't dominant in the period leading up to that?
Savior was not dominate after he stopped being dominate. Savior getting 3-0ed by Bisu is universally considered the end of his dominance for a reason lol
He was dominate before Bisu, but not after.
Savior had a period of dominance that Flash/Jaedong did not have. Simply because that period ended (when Bisu beat him) doesn't mean it didn't exist in the first place.
I like how so many like to conveniently forget Savior's failures in the OSL prelims as if they don't count when talking about how dominant a player was.
Flash, Jaedong, Oov, and Nada all EASILY outclass Savior in that department. Winrate, titles, ELO, anything you want to talk about and the former four were more dominant than Savior during their respective periods.
Ignoring the passage of time, it's hard to deny that Jaedong and Flash are, by far, the most skilled players ever.
If any one BW player should be the GOAT, it is NaDa. Maybe he wasn't the most creative or influential, but he was incredibly ahead of his time, and even recently he was beating some of the best players around. NaDa is the model for the modern macro player. Nobody has been more consistent or successful.
It's hard to say that Boxer was the most skilled player after he won his titles. However, I think VioleTAK said every BW fan is also a Boxer fan by association, and it's very true. Newbies to the scene would not be impressed by watching NaDa, Flash, or Jaedong play, who would understand what is going on? But watching Boxer lockdown 7 BC's in a split second, or using 5 medics and comsat to blind 5+ observers hidden behind 18 carriers?! Boxer's creativity and dedication to advancing BW as an e-sport are the reasons BW became what it did, and not fall into obscurity.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. Only Starcraft gamers know who Nada is, while your Korean parents and their parents in the retirement home can recognize Boxer's face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
Amen Brother, couldn't have said it better myself.... minus the depressing ending
On October 31 2010 06:18 SimonB wrote: I like how so many like to conveniently forget Savior's failures in the OSL prelims as if they don't count when talking about how dominant a player was.
Flash, Jaedong, Oov, and Nada all EASILY outclass Savior in that department. Winrate, titles, ELO, anything you want to talk about and the former four were more dominant than Savior during their respective periods.
You are confusing how successful a player is, with how dominate a player is. When people say something like "Nada was the most successful player ever, but Oov or Savior was the most dominate ever", they aren't saying that Oov or Savior had more titles, or anything like that. As I said earlier, dominance is a measure of how good a player is compared to everyone else at the time.
Agree with Duke, i didn't play BW, and never followed the pro esports scene, but i have been a gamer since i got my ZX spectrum when i was about 3. The first pro gamer name i knew was boxer, i couldn't give details of what he did exactly, games he'd played, or his career successes, but i knew he played SC and he was f'n awesome. There has literally been no other pro gamer from a game i didn't play whose name i knew/know.
I respect nada and boxer for what they've done but you can't not give flash his dues. He's accomplished the most in the least amount of time, and will for a long time continue to thrive. I'm not trying to take anything away from those before him, but starcraft is an evolving game(less so perhaps with BW now since it will be unlikely to change) and while boxer, nada, oov all held the stage before, now flash holds it.
I suppose Flash is like the Federer of tennis - achieving everything fast and doing it consistently...until Nadal crushed him. If Starcraft 1 survives long enough, we will probably see something similar happen.
On October 07 2010 11:01 jalstar wrote: For those sick of the B-word and arguing about how dominant different players were in different eras. I don't like elo as a way to compare players in different eras. A good metric in my opinion is titles and finals reached. A short classification system:
Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
EPT
