I was just debating in a stream chat whether Boxer or Nada is the best BW player ever. I'm going to exclude Flash from this discussion since Flash's BW career is still ongoing and he may win more titles.
Excluding the WCG, Boxer has a combination of 3 MSL/OSL titles. Nada has 6 titles and is still the all time OSL/MSL title leader.
People consider Boxer to be the best though because he was the most innovative during his time period, and he was the first truly dominant BW player. While Nada came after, one can argue that because Nada has 6 titles to Boxer's 3 titles, Nada has had a more successful career than Boxer. Even if you include the WCG in the title count, Nada's 6 titles is still greater than Boxer's 5 titles. However, many consider Boxer to be the "father" of BW Pro Gaming and this cement's Boxer's legacy further.
So, who do you think is the greatest BW player betweent these two?
Flash destroys them all, however boxer will always be respected as the most influential, and basically the god-father of starcraft. And of course nada is the most successful player of all time imo and according to osl/msl ;] However you're all failing to realize, that Day[9] is obviously the greatest player to ever touch the keyboard and mouse..
Boxer is definitely a greater person in BW history, but I think NaDa was the better player. Boxer has the fanboys, but NaDa has the fangirls! God they're both still just awesome progamers. <3
Statistically the best player (excluding Flash who is still playing.)
On October 30 2010 12:35 zerious wrote: I don't understand how you can't include Flash, it's either him or NaDa and he will probably be the GOAT when it's all set and done.
Between NaDa and Boxer it's NaDa without a doubt.
I'm going to exclude Flash from this discussion since Flash's BW career is still ongoing and he may win more titles.
When did the GOAT become having the most titles? Jordan does not have the most NBA championships, Laver does not have the most Grand Slam titles. Warnie does not have the most wickets taken by a spinner.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. Only Starcraft gamers know who Nada is, while your Korean parents and their parents in the retirement home can recognize Boxer's face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
Can't argue with the father of e-sports. If NaDa, Flash, Jaedong, Oov, etc. never existed, the BW scene would still be similar to what it is today. If Boxer never existed, e-sports would be dead. None of those guys would have any titles and probably would not even be progamers without Boxer.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
/clap Well said, I agree.
T_T though this is pretty much true, how can anyone not love nada!?
On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote: I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential.
I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history.
It depends on what criteria you use to define greatness. Boxer is obviously the most famous and influential player to come from BW, but he's been competitively irrelevant for over half a decade now and even in his prime, wasn't really tremendously dominant.
Nada has probably been one of the most consistent competitors and has the most title wins of all players to date. So if you're counting titles, he would take the title (until he is surpassed).
If we're talking sheer dominance during his time, I'd have to award that one to Savior. Despite all the hate on him for the matchfixing nonsense, during his prime, Savior was the single most intimidating force in BW by a large margin. Jaedong comes close, but he has a rival in Flash (and vice versa). Savior had no rival to take anything away from him during his reign.
Of course JD and Flash cannot be left out of the running either. Their ability to dominate the scene at this point in time when it's reached maturity is a testament to their unsurpassed skill and talent. They've found consistent success amongst a field of players much more skilled than any of the previously mentioned players and both are in position to match or break Nada's record for most title wins.
Really, all of them are great in their own way. I'm not so sure you can compare them in any fair way.
On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote: I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential.
I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history.
Am I? Boxer had those 11 months or so back in 2000, but after that Nada defined terran. Pretty quickly you saw all terrans look more and more like Nada. Oov brought another step forward away from Boxer, and that was that for his gimmicky style.
Today, you can look at a Nada game from '01-'03 and you can see the roots of Flash's style, but you look at a Boxer game from then or before and it's completely alien to modern SC (or really anything from the last five years).
Boxer means only slightly more to me than Garimto (which really shouldn't be an insult, but most Boxer fanboys will take it as such).
On October 30 2010 13:23 LegendaryZ wrote: If we're talking sheer dominance during his time, I'd have to award that one to Savior. Despite all the hate on him for the matchfixing nonsense, during his prime, Savior was the single most intimidating force in BW by a large margin. Jaedong comes close, but he has a rival in Flash (and vice versa). Savior had no rival to take anything away from him during his reign.
Ahem, Flash accomplished everything Savior did and significantly more in less than a year.
On October 30 2010 12:54 fearus wrote: When did the GOAT become having the most titles? Jordan does not have the most NBA championships, Laver does not have the most Grand Slam titles. Warnie does not have the most wickets taken by a spinner.
two of the three are team sports, and it's far from unanimous that laver is the best ever.
On October 30 2010 13:44 Wolf wrote: I had to Urban Dictionary GOAT to see what it meant. I think SlayerS_BoxeR is definitely more GOAT than NaDa for Brood War.
There is no formal definition of G.O.A.T. And G.O.A.T for BW for some people doesn't equate to the number of titles won either. Everybody has a different interpretation of G.O.A.T - that's the beauty of this discussion.
I don't understand people's replies to this. Yeah, Boxer's the most influential and founded everything and all that, but none of that is relevant in this thread. This isn't most popular, most influential, etc. It's best. Clearly Boxer is not the best player ever.
On October 30 2010 14:55 GolemMadness wrote: I don't understand people's replies to this. Yeah, Boxer's the most influential and founded everything and all that, but none of that is relevant in this thread. This isn't most popular, most influential, etc. It's best. Clearly Boxer is not the best player ever.
if you're talking about skills, then neither boxer and nada are best. flash and jaedong are way better than them in actual SKILLS
i mean if you're talking about actual ability flash is clearly the best that isn't even an argument. But flash would be nowhere without the contributions boxer made to the sport. and nada was somewhere in between the two. impossible comparison imo.
Found this thread from GosuGamers written by MaULiNG:
NaDa is better than Boxer for a simple reason:
Perfection.
It is a cliche statement saying that Terran was easiest race to learn but the hardest to master, and if their is a master in every single aspect of the terran race it is NaDa.
But, let us not forget who made NaDa, indirectly, what he is today, and this is BoxeR. In fact, every terran player owes BoxeR their right or left index fingers, because without him, we would be no where but the bottom of StarCraft Universe with no consistent winning strategies. The man created the Terran Wall for the love of God. The simple little thing almost every terran learns in Terran Versus Protoss, was something that was unheard of.
NaDa, took BoxeR's ideas and perfected him. I have watched hundreds of NaDa Replays, and hundreds of BoxeR's and I have come to the conclusion of a few things.
BoxeR's strengths were his creative prowess, and his unbelievably incredible micro. He didn't have to have millions of units to take down another player, he needed the right units. But his macro sucked, and espicially this is noticeable in his Terran Versus Protoss matchup which he has won 48% of the time.
NaDa on the other hand, took the safe builds, e.g. Fact Port, Double Fact, Fact Expo, in TvP, (which imo is his best and most famous matchup) to name a few, and perfected them with brilliant micro, and a macro that wasn't close to being matched till iloveoov came along, and that's a whole 'nother subject.
NaDa is the reason why Terrans dominated StarCraft not in just pro-leagues, but in battle.net in general, (and they did among decent and average players) was because Zerg and Protoss could not match the macroing power of a Terran. WHICH was brought on by NaDa, and his perfected strategies and timing, that damn near every terran fucking copied off of him. I did, i religiously used his Fact Port to the best of my advantage.
Someone who will reply to this saying in the foreign department, that Terran didn't dominate, but what I Am saying, as a player who has played since 2000, when the Pro Leagues were being dominated by NaDa, the ranks of c3 to b5 had been dominated by Terrans. And I don't have the statistics with me, but I will search for them on WGTour's website.
BoxeR and NaDa are both masters of the Terran Race, but NaDa (without thinking about iloveoov for a second) might of been the closest to perfect, and please don't talk to me about Xellos, cause NaDa deserves the nickname Perfect Terran more then that guy ever has.
On October 30 2010 12:39 hacklebeast wrote: I interpert "best" as "most skilled," and I think that boxer had less "skill" than any progamer with 3+ titles.
He was my favorite though. So if "best" is "best to watch," than SlayerS_BoxeR all the way.
i dont think the argument is that simple. for example: who is the greatest physicist of all time? einstein or newton? I think we can agree einstein was clearly more knowledgeable but if it weren't for newton, what would einstein be? We don't know what nada would be or if nada would have even existed if boxer didn't exist.
Anyway, BoxeR's the only player I knew before I joined TL. When I first heard about him, he was described as the greatest StarCraft player ever, and I won't disagree.
I choose SlayerS_`BoxeR` because of his high and consistent level of popularity.
I always think about Boxer whenever I see SKT1 playing, even though he left the team and retired from Brood War. I haven't been too excited about him for years, but that original feeling of greatness remains.
Personally I like Boxer better, I think he will win in this GSL match. Maybe it's because of the NaDa body thread too... that shit is just mad creepy that so many global nerds have the fever over nada xD
On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote: I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential.
I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history.
Am I? Boxer had those 11 months or so back in 2000, but after that Nada defined terran. Pretty quickly you saw all terrans look more and more like Nada. Oov brought another step forward away from Boxer, and that was that for his gimmicky style.
Today, you can look at a Nada game from '01-'03 and you can see the roots of Flash's style, but you look at a Boxer game from then or before and it's completely alien to modern SC (or really anything from the last five years).
Boxer means only slightly more to me than Garimto (which really shouldn't be an insult, but most Boxer fanboys will take it as such).
First of all, wtf are you talking about? Boxer was on top of Kespa ranking for 17 MONTHS STRAIGHT! THE LONGEST IN HISTORY! Nada only had 16 months straight on top of Kespa, Savior only managed to stay on Kespa #1 for 8 months straight, while your homie boy Flash only overtook Jaedong since this year's march!
Second of all, have you ever heard something called "progression"? Of course the gameplay would not remain the same throughout the entire decade! But do you even know what the hell Boxer invented for Terran? He invented the MOTHERFUCKING TERRAN WALL IN! He also was the very first to use dropship play against anybody! Without him, Terran v.s. Terran would be a one and half hour tank v.s. tank into suiciding tank into battlecruiser turtlefest into snooze. That alone would kill the brood war scene before it became a proper sport! He also was the FIRST to demonstrate micro play! Prior to that it was just army v.s. army. He brought MECHANICS to Brood War and made it look like something of a competitive sport. He was playing Terran before the balance overhauling 1.08 patch and when Terran was universally considered to be a trash race. He changed that and inspired a new generation of Terran players. Can you even imagine a game succeeding at its infancy when the general public considers one of the three playable races to be unplayable? He is the father, the Emperor of Terran because he was the one who laid down the basic mechanics and builds necessary to win against other races. Whoever came after him, be it Nada, Oov or Flash build upon those basics, the basics to enable a Terran to win a game. You got a difficult case ahead of you if you want to argue that the modifier is more influential than the inventor.
Gimmicky? I will have you know that before Boxer, gimmicky doesn't even exist in brood war. He opened up the minds of millions and made future players realize that there are endless possibilities in brood war. I assume you are the type of person who likes to watch standard play v.s. standard play, mirror build v.s. mirror build. I have no problem with that. But let me tell you, I'd shoot myself if somebody force me to watch a show consisted of nothing but that, and I think a large percentage of bw fans would agree with me.
Now then, I don't think you know your starcraft lore AT ALL. Nada and your homie boy Flash can be Warcraft 3 players instead and their lack of presence would not affect Brood War at all in comparison to Boxer's contribution. Let me make this clear, without Boxer, there is no "pro" in professional e-sport scene. Boxer was amongst the very first to play Starcraft in a competitive manner. Granted, Nada was also there, but he was doing next to nothing notable during Boxer's reign. Nada peaked later on. While everybody else was playing the game, Boxer was the person with the help of OGN to make Brood War KNOWN to the mainstream public, which does not mean your adolescent year old nerd population, but means the population that include your father and your grandfather and great grandfather. He made Brood War's presence known to the public by appearing on numerous television shows, radio shows, National Assembly, Air Force Academy, meeting with the politicians to advocate for government support, and made a deep impression upon the general public, making brood war known the people across different generations. That's why Boxer is the world's ONLY e-sport ICON. Not idol like your homie boy Flash, but ICON. Because he is the sole embodiment of e-sport and the sole bridge between e-sport and the mainstream. I have friends who can't even beat the A.I. in brood war but know who Boxer is and I know some Korean adults in their 30s who know who Boxer is. Without Boxer, you can say there is no professional BW.
Not to mention that Boxer literally founded SKT from scratch and was the primary cause behind the creation of ACE. His contributions are so numerous that it is undeniable that he is the most influential starcraft player in history.
On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote: I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential.
I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history.
Am I? Boxer had those 11 months or so back in 2000, but after that Nada defined terran. Pretty quickly you saw all terrans look more and more like Nada. Oov brought another step forward away from Boxer, and that was that for his gimmicky style.
Today, you can look at a Nada game from '01-'03 and you can see the roots of Flash's style, but you look at a Boxer game from then or before and it's completely alien to modern SC (or really anything from the last five years).
Boxer means only slightly more to me than Garimto (which really shouldn't be an insult, but most Boxer fanboys will take it as such).
First of all, wtf are you talking about? Boxer was on top of Kespa ranking for 17 MONTHS STRAIGHT! THE LONGEST IN HISTORY! Nada only had 16 months straight on top of Kespa, Savior only managed to stay on Kespa #1 for 8 months straight, while your homie boy Flash only overtook Jaedong since this year's march!
Second of all, have you ever heard something called "progression"? Of course the gameplay would not remain the same throughout the entire decade! But do you even know what the hell Boxer invented for Terran? He invented the MOTHERFUCKING TERRAN WALL IN! He also was the very first to use dropship play against anybody! Without him, Terran v.s. Terran would be a one and half hour tank v.s. tank into suiciding tank into battlecruiser turtlefest into snooze. That alone would kill the brood war scene before it became a proper sport! He also was the FIRST to demonstrate micro play! Prior to that it was just army v.s. army. He brought MECHANICS to Brood War and made it look like something of a competitive sport. He was playing Terran before the balance overhauling 1.08 patch and when Terran was universally considered to be a trash race. He changed that and inspired a new generation of Terran players. Can you even imagine a game succeeding at its infancy when the general public considers one of the three playable races to be unplayable? He is the father, the Emperor of Terran because he was the one who laid down the basic mechanics and builds necessary to win against other races. Whoever came after him, be it Nada, Oov or Flash build upon those basics, the basics to enable a Terran to win a game. You got a difficult case ahead of you if you want to argue that the modifier is more influential than the inventor.
Gimmicky? I will have you know that before Boxer, gimmicky doesn't even exist in brood war. He opened up the minds of millions and made future players realize that there are endless possibilities in brood war. I assume you are the type of person who likes to watch standard play v.s. standard play, mirror build v.s. mirror build. I have no problem with that. But let me tell you, I'd shoot myself if somebody force me to watch a show consisted of nothing but that, and I think a large percentage of bw fans would agree with me.
Now then, I don't think you know your starcraft lore AT ALL. Nada and your homie boy Flash can be Warcraft 3 players instead and their lack of presence would not affect Brood War at all in comparison to Boxer's contribution. Let me make this clear, without Boxer, there is no "pro" in professional e-sport scene. Boxer was amongst the very first to play Starcraft in a competitive manner. Granted, Nada was also there, but he was doing next to nothing notable during Boxer's reign. Nada peaked later on. While everybody else was playing the game, Boxer was the person with the help of OGN to make Brood War KNOWN to the mainstream public, which does not mean your adolescent year old nerd population, but means the population that include your father and your grandfather and great grandfather. He made Brood War's presence known to the public by appearing on numerous television shows, radio shows, National Assembly, Air Force Academy, meeting with the politicians to advocate for government support, and made a deep impression upon the general public, making brood war known the people across different generations. That's why Boxer is the world's ONLY e-sport ICON. Not idol like your homie boy Flash, but ICON. Because he is the sole embodiment of e-sport and the sole bridge between e-sport and the mainstream. I have friends who can't even beat the A.I. in brood war but know who Boxer is and I know some Korean adults in their 30s who know who Boxer is. Without Boxer, you can say there is no professional BW.
Not to mention that Boxer literally founded SKT from scratch and was the primary cause behind the creation of ACE. His contributions are so numerous that it is undeniable that he is the most influential starcraft player in history.
This thread is not about who is more influential or the more important e-sports figure, but who is the better player (presumably during their "reign".) I think the OP is pretty ambiguous and frankly a poor one, myself. A blase statement like "greatest of all time" results in a lot of needless arguing that leads nowhere.
You really should choose a more specific word. 'Greatest' can be interpreted in too many different ways to make this post worthwhile; influential, skillful, dominant, popular, all-of-the-above etc.
I don't think there's any question really as to who was the most influential (BoxeR) or who was the most skillful (NaDa). Really what it comes down to is which of those things you value more.
If you break the word greatest down, it becomes very similar to "most popular". You can't measure greatness because each person places different weights to different attributes.
I think Boxer's the greatest because of what he did for the scene. But someone could easily argue that NaDa is greatest because of what he achieved over such a long period of time.
Boxer made me want to play starcraft then idra made want to play starcraft2 and day9 just made me wanna keep playing both starcraft 2 n 1......and now I'm watching Gsl because of boxer again. This Guy makes you do things you don't really wanna do......
There's no greatest, I even doubt if Flash and/or Jaedong will be such dominant as they were in 2010/2009 respectively. Brand new season, and new games.
Its simply incomparable. The difference between slayersboxer and nada is like the difference between Dota and Heroes of Newerth, where slayersboxer is the sc equivalent of dota and nada is sc equivalent of Heroes of Newerth. For those who don't know what Dota and Heroes of Newerth is, Dota is a custom map in wc3 and Heroes of Newerth is a copy game of Dota, with a few adjustments such as better graphics and similar unit design. Obviously, Heroes of Newerth would never have existed without Dota, and likewise, Nada (or any other terran progamer for that matter) wouldn't be the same without Boxer, seeing as Nada wouldn't be abled to use the innovative strategies and micro techniques which boxer had contributed and of course we all know that before boxer, terran was pretty much disadvantaged.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. Only Starcraft gamers know who Nada is, while your Korean parents and their parents in the retirement home can recognize Boxer's face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
great post, I agree.
Tho in that History book, with all the progamers just listed alphabetically, and Boxer having a complete chapter for himself, NaDa will at least have a picture next to his name.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. Only Starcraft gamers know who Nada is, while your Korean parents and their parents in the retirement home can recognize Boxer's face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
You have to look at it also from, where would nada be if boxer had never existed. I don't think any player is G.O.A.T. atm simply because the brood war scene is still going. If you want to award titles like most influential (boxer) or most successful (nada) thats fine. As far as I'm concerned oov>>>>>them all. credit to boxer because he brought him up
On October 30 2010 21:43 cuppatea wrote: Out of curiosity, will any of the BW fans who have little to no general interest in SC2 be watching the Boxer vs Nada GSL match coming up on Tuesday?
I will watch.I haven't seen the final of GSL1. SC2 is just too boring for me.
On October 30 2010 12:26 dani_caliKorea wrote: Boxer = most influential Nada = the greatest Oov = most dominant?
isn't jaedong the most dominant? or savior even?
this is really dominant imo
Incredibly so, but so was Savior's run and Flash's run. Neither came out of nowhere with the streak of fire that Oov did. It's kinda pointless to determine who was the most dominant though, there are just too many things that you cant translate through the periods. I think you can roughly break the Bonjwas into a few catagories: Dominate, Innovative, and .. My god do these guys ever go away?
While all the bonjwa were exceptional in all of these catagories I think it roughly breaks down more like this:
Dominate - Flash and Oov Innovative - Boxer and Savior Longevity - Nada ----- (If JD wins another title I would argue that he probably should fit into this catagory)
Which catagory is more important to being the goat? I don't know, it depends on your definition.
Nada is the most successful, while Boxer was the most influential. So in terms of actually playing the game and winning, Nada is the best. In terms of defining what Brood War esports is, Boxer wins.
Reach is more manly than both of them, though.
On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
On October 30 2010 21:43 cuppatea wrote: Out of curiosity, will any of the BW fans who have little to no general interest in SC2 be watching the Boxer vs Nada GSL match coming up on Tuesday?
I think I will. But lol, Boxer must do something to save SC1 scene. I won't freaking do anything towards SC2 (buy, play, watch, etc.) if they don't keep it alive. Seriously. Brood War is holy ground imo, and so is Korea for Brood War. If they want play SC1 they must be allowed to. Any speaks about them "stealing" something from Blizzard is nothing but bullshit.
If you saw Leta/Hiya and Jaedong/Light matches, you must know that SC1 scene is by no means "dead" or "dying".
So Lim Yo Hwan, if you ever accidentally read this, please save the SC1 scene. Be the true God of SC. You know... it's an attribute of gods to save something ))
Btw, lol, server owners must prepare for massive server crashes.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
lol i just saw period where he went 25-4 (W-L) between may/09 and july/09 that's ridiculous!
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Between Nada and boxer, I say boxer. He made the BW scene what it is today. He propelled professional gaming in Korea and the guy is still playing SC2 today. Nada is just another great player, like Jaedong, Julyzerg, or Oov. Boxer is seriously gosu.
On October 30 2010 13:15 SimonB wrote: I'm sorry, I just have never understood this infatuation with Boxer. He is not the best in dominance, in influence, and certainly not skill.
Boxer was gimmicky. Nada's play-style was way more influential.
I am not quite sure if you understand your brood war history.
Am I? Boxer had those 11 months or so back in 2000, but after that Nada defined terran. Pretty quickly you saw all terrans look more and more like Nada. Oov brought another step forward away from Boxer, and that was that for his gimmicky style.
Today, you can look at a Nada game from '01-'03 and you can see the roots of Flash's style, but you look at a Boxer game from then or before and it's completely alien to modern SC (or really anything from the last five years).
Boxer means only slightly more to me than Garimto (which really shouldn't be an insult, but most Boxer fanboys will take it as such).
First of all, wtf are you talking about? Boxer was on top of Kespa ranking for 17 MONTHS STRAIGHT! THE LONGEST IN HISTORY! Nada only had 16 months straight on top of Kespa, Savior only managed to stay on Kespa #1 for 8 months straight, while your homie boy Flash only overtook Jaedong since this year's march!
Second of all, have you ever heard something called "progression"? Of course the gameplay would not remain the same throughout the entire decade! But do you even know what the hell Boxer invented for Terran? He invented the MOTHERFUCKING TERRAN WALL IN! He also was the very first to use dropship play against anybody! Without him, Terran v.s. Terran would be a one and half hour tank v.s. tank into suiciding tank into battlecruiser turtlefest into snooze. That alone would kill the brood war scene before it became a proper sport! He also was the FIRST to demonstrate micro play! Prior to that it was just army v.s. army. He brought MECHANICS to Brood War and made it look like something of a competitive sport. He was playing Terran before the balance overhauling 1.08 patch and when Terran was universally considered to be a trash race. He changed that and inspired a new generation of Terran players. Can you even imagine a game succeeding at its infancy when the general public considers one of the three playable races to be unplayable? He is the father, the Emperor of Terran because he was the one who laid down the basic mechanics and builds necessary to win against other races. Whoever came after him, be it Nada, Oov or Flash build upon those basics, the basics to enable a Terran to win a game. You got a difficult case ahead of you if you want to argue that the modifier is more influential than the inventor.
Gimmicky? I will have you know that before Boxer, gimmicky doesn't even exist in brood war. He opened up the minds of millions and made future players realize that there are endless possibilities in brood war. I assume you are the type of person who likes to watch standard play v.s. standard play, mirror build v.s. mirror build. I have no problem with that. But let me tell you, I'd shoot myself if somebody force me to watch a show consisted of nothing but that, and I think a large percentage of bw fans would agree with me.
Now then, I don't think you know your starcraft lore AT ALL. Nada and your homie boy Flash can be Warcraft 3 players instead and their lack of presence would not affect Brood War at all in comparison to Boxer's contribution. Let me make this clear, without Boxer, there is no "pro" in professional e-sport scene. Boxer was amongst the very first to play Starcraft in a competitive manner. Granted, Nada was also there, but he was doing next to nothing notable during Boxer's reign. Nada peaked later on. While everybody else was playing the game, Boxer was the person with the help of OGN to make Brood War KNOWN to the mainstream public, which does not mean your adolescent year old nerd population, but means the population that include your father and your grandfather and great grandfather. He made Brood War's presence known to the public by appearing on numerous television shows, radio shows, National Assembly, Air Force Academy, meeting with the politicians to advocate for government support, and made a deep impression upon the general public, making brood war known the people across different generations. That's why Boxer is the world's ONLY e-sport ICON. Not idol like your homie boy Flash, but ICON. Because he is the sole embodiment of e-sport and the sole bridge between e-sport and the mainstream. I have friends who can't even beat the A.I. in brood war but know who Boxer is and I know some Korean adults in their 30s who know who Boxer is. Without Boxer, you can say there is no professional BW.
Not to mention that Boxer literally founded SKT from scratch and was the primary cause behind the creation of ACE. His contributions are so numerous that it is undeniable that he is the most influential starcraft player in history.
This thread is not about who is more influential or the more important e-sports figure, but who is the better player (presumably during their "reign".) I think the OP is pretty ambiguous and frankly a poor one, myself. A blase statement like "greatest of all time" results in a lot of needless arguing that leads nowhere.
I was responding to SimonB who claims that Boxer is no more influential than Nada or barely edges out Garimto. Also, if you read OP's post, he is not implying that he is asking for the most skillful player in history (which would obviously be Flash), but rather the greatest player of all time. The very definition of G.O.A.T. is up to debate as it is an urban term originally applied to Tennis. The very definition of "who is a better player" is also up to debate. Is an imitator who plays standard perfectly better than the person who created the standard play? Should G.O.A.T. be measured by Kespa ranking, number of titles or even APM? Should those "practice bonjwas" ever be considered?
OP was vague, but SimonB's post was pretty clear on what he was trying to say.
I like to look at how good players can be in the long-term. NaDa and Boxer both have ridiculous longevity in the scene. But Boxer was hurt by the draft and his unusually old age. When he made his last Starleague final in November 2005, he was 25 years old. He was 20 when he won his first OSL. Age matters in this game, for whatever reason that's not worth getting into. But consider this.
After 25 year old Boxer, the next oldest player to make a final was 24 y/o Nal_ra. After that, it's 22 (also the oldest age to win it). So yes, NaDa has more wins, finals, Ro16 appearances, but imagine if Boxer had been born later. He was 18 when Broodwar first hit store shelves. Flash won an OSL when he was 15. So while it is impressive that NaDa made his last MSL Ro8 in 2009, about 7 years after he won his first MSL, consider that he was not as old then as Boxer was in 2005 when he made his last final.
Enough age banter. Boxer is the greatest in influence, NaDa in overall sucesses and ability to be a contender for almost the entirety of last decade (87 months in Kespa top 30). As for who was the best in a short period of time, defined arbitrarily, it's Flash or iloveoov or Savior or NaDa. They all had more titles than Boxer in a similar amount of time. They all had ridiculous win rates. They all did it while other dominate forces were present. NaDa, iloveoov, and Savior all had their starleague wins OVERLAP each other at some point. And yet they were still able to win more starleagues than Boxer. For that reason, I can't name Boxer as the greatest ever. I'll say he was the most influential, but not greatest. If the MSL (KPGA) started a year or so earlier than it did then maybe he would have won them all concurrently with his OSL wins. And that's why I brought up age. But it's all hypothetical, and so Boxer doesn't have it.
NaDa is your greatest player ever. But not necessarily your favourite. I'm rather partial to Stork myself.
Nada's hands kept him afloat, and he was able to adjust to the newer styles of play, but Oov's strategies remained very relevant past his dominant title streak into his coaching. I value the strategic influence, ability to maintain relevance in the game, and titles when talking about greatest of all time. Boxer was a fan favorite and the posterchild of Starcraft, but in retrospect he had much less strategic insight into the game and refused to adjust. Also if Flash picks up another title this year and ties Nada I think he should be considered the greatest player, he succeeded in a far more difficult period of Starcraft while bringing about more innovations.
The GOAT was an extremely good basketball player that never went pro, and there is a movie about him. This means that a GOAT would be the best player you have ever seen that didn't go pro. Nada, Boxer, and Oov would definitely not qualify as a GOAT. Maybe i'm thinking of a different GOAT, but that is always the definition that comes to mind when i here people being compared to the GOAT
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
But that ABSOLUTE dominance really doesn't say much about the players themselves. It could simply mean that the player got lucky and nobody else was good.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
You simply further my point that Jaedong never had a dominant control over the entire scene for any significant period of time.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
Another factor is the longevity of the player. Nada lasted 87 months straight on Kespa top 30 while Boxer had a 17 months streak as Kespa #1. Flash achieved more than anybody else in the shortest period of time, but his career, impact and dominance is not long enough yet to qualify him as G.O.A.T.
On October 31 2010 02:44 T0fuuu wrote: How can you ignore the elephant in the room that is flash ?
If Flash goes on with his dominance in 2010, he'll clearly be in the list
But as a Jaedong fan i'd not like this to happen. 2010 was the season when Flash has finally bent the equality of LeeSsangRok in his favor. I hope the season 2010/2011 will be the opposite. Jaedong FTW.
Another factor is the longevity of the player. Nada lasted 87 months straight on Kespa top 30 while Boxer had a 17 months streak as Kespa #1. Flash achieved more than anybody else in the shortest period of time, but his career, impact and dominance is not long enough yet to qualify him as G.O.A.T.
The KESPA ranking is not a good measure of how good someone is. It takes forever for someone to drop off it for one thing.
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
EVERYONE thought that Savior would rape Bisu in their finals. Bisu won 3-0. Are you telling me that Savior wasn't dominant in the period leading up to that?
Boxer is the most famous, Nada has the most titles
FLASH is basically the best of all time though, and considering he just got a "bonjwa" status from such a long period of no bonjwas this is proof. (He will most likely win most titles if we get a few more seasons)
On October 31 2010 01:40 Sentenal wrote: On the subject of dominance, I think that either Oov or Savior were the most "dominate". I consider "dominate" to be how good someone is compared to their competition. Oov and Savior just demolished everyone in their prime. Flash/Jaedong, while both are very good, and tons better than everyone else (other than Bisu when Bisu is Bisu), cannot be the most "dominate" because they both were/are in their prime at pretty much the same time.
there was a substantial period when there was absolutely no one to challenge jaedong
a pretty long period between 2007 and early 2009
Most of 2007 Bisu was dominate, 2008 Flash was being extremely good (Bacchus OSL), and then Bisu/Stork and the Dragons dominated in later 2008 in Club Day MSL and Incruit OSL (Bisu was arguably the best player during that period). 2009 was more Flash/Jaedong stuff. I don't see any period in that time when there was no one to challege Jaedong. Even when Bisu and Flash weren't doing well in that period, Jaedong lost against ForGG in the MSL.
Flash lost to Effort in Korean Air OSL Season 1, and Flash was clearly the most dominant then (and still is).
Yeah, but ForGG 3-0 Jaedong. It's like Bisu lost his shot at bonjwa status after he got 0-3 by Fantasy in the OSL semi-final. You just can't be a bonjwa if you lose to somebody 0-3.
In term of ABSOLUTE dominance in a particular period of time, as in a player without rivalry, it's definitely Savior or Oov (although I admit I am not very knowledgeable about Oov's career, so I could be wrong). Jaedong and Flash always had to content against each other and Bisu plus Stork.
Jaedong got 3-0'd by Flash and people still thought that he was going to win the OSL and MSL next season against Flash.
And that's relevant to an counter-argument against my statement because?
I'm just pointing out that you can still be considered dominant after losing in a finals (whether it's 3-0 or 3-2).
The fact that the "dominate" player during their reign got 3-0ed by someone "lesser" on an important stage just goes to prove that the "dominate" player wasn't as dominate as you think. Not on the level that Oov or Savior was at.
EVERYONE thought that Savior would rape Bisu in their finals. Bisu won 3-0. Are you telling me that Savior wasn't dominant in the period leading up to that?
Savior was not dominate after he stopped being dominate. Savior getting 3-0ed by Bisu is universally considered the end of his dominance for a reason lol
He was dominate before Bisu, but not after.
Savior had a period of dominance that Flash/Jaedong did not have. Simply because that period ended (when Bisu beat him) doesn't mean it didn't exist in the first place.
I like how so many like to conveniently forget Savior's failures in the OSL prelims as if they don't count when talking about how dominant a player was.
Flash, Jaedong, Oov, and Nada all EASILY outclass Savior in that department. Winrate, titles, ELO, anything you want to talk about and the former four were more dominant than Savior during their respective periods.
Ignoring the passage of time, it's hard to deny that Jaedong and Flash are, by far, the most skilled players ever.
If any one BW player should be the GOAT, it is NaDa. Maybe he wasn't the most creative or influential, but he was incredibly ahead of his time, and even recently he was beating some of the best players around. NaDa is the model for the modern macro player. Nobody has been more consistent or successful.
It's hard to say that Boxer was the most skilled player after he won his titles. However, I think VioleTAK said every BW fan is also a Boxer fan by association, and it's very true. Newbies to the scene would not be impressed by watching NaDa, Flash, or Jaedong play, who would understand what is going on? But watching Boxer lockdown 7 BC's in a split second, or using 5 medics and comsat to blind 5+ observers hidden behind 18 carriers?! Boxer's creativity and dedication to advancing BW as an e-sport are the reasons BW became what it did, and not fall into obscurity.
On October 30 2010 12:54 dukethegold wrote: Let's put it this way.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
Let's face it, who gives a fuck about titles, Nada can't crash the GSL stream, and Flash can't attract 1 million fans just by popping up his face. Only Starcraft gamers know who Nada is, while your Korean parents and their parents in the retirement home can recognize Boxer's face. When everybody's dead and gone, Boxer's name will remain, while the rest will simply be a passing mention in the dusty history book.
Amen Brother, couldn't have said it better myself.... minus the depressing ending
On October 31 2010 06:18 SimonB wrote: I like how so many like to conveniently forget Savior's failures in the OSL prelims as if they don't count when talking about how dominant a player was.
Flash, Jaedong, Oov, and Nada all EASILY outclass Savior in that department. Winrate, titles, ELO, anything you want to talk about and the former four were more dominant than Savior during their respective periods.
You are confusing how successful a player is, with how dominate a player is. When people say something like "Nada was the most successful player ever, but Oov or Savior was the most dominate ever", they aren't saying that Oov or Savior had more titles, or anything like that. As I said earlier, dominance is a measure of how good a player is compared to everyone else at the time.
Agree with Duke, i didn't play BW, and never followed the pro esports scene, but i have been a gamer since i got my ZX spectrum when i was about 3. The first pro gamer name i knew was boxer, i couldn't give details of what he did exactly, games he'd played, or his career successes, but i knew he played SC and he was f'n awesome. There has literally been no other pro gamer from a game i didn't play whose name i knew/know.
I respect nada and boxer for what they've done but you can't not give flash his dues. He's accomplished the most in the least amount of time, and will for a long time continue to thrive. I'm not trying to take anything away from those before him, but starcraft is an evolving game(less so perhaps with BW now since it will be unlikely to change) and while boxer, nada, oov all held the stage before, now flash holds it.
I suppose Flash is like the Federer of tennis - achieving everything fast and doing it consistently...until Nadal crushed him. If Starcraft 1 survives long enough, we will probably see something similar happen.
On October 07 2010 11:01 jalstar wrote: For those sick of the B-word and arguing about how dominant different players were in different eras. I don't like elo as a way to compare players in different eras. A good metric in my opinion is titles and finals reached. A short classification system:
Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
Flash could be conisdered, even though this is offtopic.. my pizza was just put into the oven so I'm going to gather some data from TLPD.. food for thought. Flash's overall stats: Record: 345 wins - 138 losses (71.43%) Best Streak: 15 wins Worst Streak: 7 losses
Over the past year, 2009-10-26 to 2010-10-26, Flash's stats are: Record: 136 wins - 41 losses (76.84%) Best Streak: 15 wins Worst Streak: 3 losses
for 2007-2008 (03-15 to 10-26, this is a bit longer than a year, but he started in March of 07): Record: 115 wins - 62 losses (64.97%) Best Streak: 12 wins Worst Streak: 7 losses
From this, you can see that Flash has never been below the 60% winrate (TvZ his first year.. facing Jaedong) and usually averages around 71.63% winrate over his entire career. Quite impressive, one would even say dominate (yes, he's lost to Jaedong, Bisu, Stork from time to time, but they've also lost to each other.. notable Stork having a winning record over the other 3 <3 (actually, he's 10-10 vs Jaedong after this latest OSL.. breaking my heart Jaedong..))
It could be said that Stork is dominate among the current S-class players, but dominance should be defined by overall progress.
Now for some Jaedong stats: Overall: Record: 380 wins - 176 losses (68.35%) Best Streak: 13 wins Worst Streak: 4 losses
2009-10-27 to 2010-10-27: Record: 112 wins - 46 losses (70.89%) Best Streak: 12 wins Worst Streak: 3 losses
2008-10-27 to 2009-10-27: Record: 115 wins - 55 losses (67.65%) Best Streak: 13 wins Worst Streak: 4 losses
2007-10-27 to 2009-10-27: Record: 89 wins - 40 losses (68.99%) Best Streak: 13 wins Worst Streak: 4 losses
2006-02-03 to 2007-10-27: Record: 65 wins - 36 losses (64.36%) Best Streak: 7 wins Worst Streak: 4 losses
..and my pizza is ready. I would say iloveoov is the greatest of all time, without him we wouldn't have Flash. Without him, the most important aspect of BW, the macro, would not be as impressive. Yes, BoxeR is the most enjoyable player of all, his micro and his skill at the time was most impressive.. but micro isn't everything.
In conclusion, BoxeR auto-vote, naturally. HE is the GOAT.
my interpretation of GOAT is the level of skill of the player at their prime. So if you pit them against each other in their prime, NaDa takes the cake.
The problem with Boxer was that he was only good at SOME things. He is what you might call a "speciality player", especially in his micro and TvZ. (hehe poor Yell0w) Too bad his macro wasn't exactly Oov's
Nada on the other hand...now that's what I call a very "well-rounded" player, with solid solid solid mechanics and micro that isn't too shabby either...take a look at his SK Terran execution.
On October 31 2010 16:18 BruceLee6783 wrote: The problem with Boxer was that he was only good at SOME things. He is what you might call a "speciality player", especially in his micro and TvZ. (hehe poor Yell0w) Too bad his macro wasn't exactly Oov's
Nada on the other hand...now that's what I call a very "well-rounded" player, with solid solid solid mechanics and micro that isn't too shabby either...take a look at his SK Terran execution.
Its true that boxer was only good at some things, but back when Boxer was considered the best, things like Macro didn't really exist like they do today, and BW was largely a Micro game. BW didn't get Macro oriented till Oov.
Boxer and Jaedong Starcraft Artist with a lot of unstandart improvisation in game. Nada, Savior and OOV just good machine with perfect performance, all of them slump after somebody makes good counter to them strategies. I guess Flash will slump too when somebody makes counter to his macro style, like Bisu counter Savior with FE, Savior counter OOV with 3 hatch muta etc.
On November 01 2010 06:23 iNoobSoWhat wrote: Boxer and Jaedong Starcraft Artist with a lot of unstandart improvisation in game. Nada, Savior and OOV just good machine with perfect performance, all of them slump after somebody makes good counter to them strategies. I guess Flash will slump too when somebody makes counter to his macro style, like Bisu counter Savior with FE, Savior counter OOV with 3 hatch muta etc.
I can't agree with that. Flash is as creative as Jaedong or Boxer. He just use his creativity differently ( no flashy strats). His games evolves faster than anyone could think good counter.
On November 01 2010 06:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote: In anticipation of Boxer facing Nada again on November 2nd, what was the biggest Boxer vs Nada match ever in BW?
Can somebody please post a youtube video of that Boxer vs Nada match?
I guess the older the more they were in their prime, but the oldest is from 9-17-2004, so a couple years removed from Boxer in his prime. But Boxer did meet iloveoov in the OSL finals 2 months later, so 2004 Boxer is still a very good Boxer.
On October 30 2010 12:39 hacklebeast wrote: I interpert "best" as "most skilled," and I think that boxer had less "skill" than any progamer with 3+ titles.
He was my favorite though. So if "best" is "best to watch," than SlayerS_BoxeR all the way.
FunFact! : Terran was considered the weakest and worst race until BoxeR!(alot of the randoms like ChRh went to Terran)
Boxer isnt called the Emperor because he's less skilled..
NaDa is the GOAT. But If Flash wins both titles again I will have to drop my fanboyism and admit he is the GOAT. NaDa will still be the GOAT of my heart though (no homo . . . well maybe a little).
BoxeR, just cuz NaDa was better in starcraft 1 means nothing. Keep in mind even though nada MIGHT be better, boxer is definitely the strategist and can by far outplay him
On November 01 2010 14:15 SubPointOA wrote: BoxeR, just cuz NaDa was better in starcraft 1 means nothing. Keep in mind even though nada MIGHT be better, boxer is definitely the strategist and can by far outplay him
On November 01 2010 06:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote: In anticipation of Boxer facing Nada again on November 2nd, what was the biggest Boxer vs Nada match ever in BW?
Can somebody please post a youtube video of that Boxer vs Nada match?
On November 01 2010 06:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote: In anticipation of Boxer facing Nada again on November 2nd, what was the biggest Boxer vs Nada match ever in BW?
Can somebody please post a youtube video of that Boxer vs Nada match?
I guess the older the more they were in their prime, but the oldest is from 9-17-2004, so a couple years removed from Boxer in his prime. But Boxer did meet iloveoov in the OSL finals 2 months later, so 2004 Boxer is still a very good Boxer.
Thanks.
It looks like they faced each other at the Stout MSL but unfortunately, there is no VOD for that.
On November 01 2010 14:15 SubPointOA wrote: BoxeR, just cuz NaDa was better in starcraft 1 means nothing. Keep in mind even though nada MIGHT be better, boxer is definitely the strategist and can by far outplay him
Starcraft 2 forum is that way, son.
Pretty much.
Personally i cant choose, my fanboyism rages hard for both
On November 01 2010 14:15 SubPointOA wrote: BoxeR, just cuz NaDa was better in starcraft 1 means nothing. Keep in mind even though nada MIGHT be better, boxer is definitely the strategist and can by far outplay him
Starcraft 2 forum is that way, son.
This made me fucking LOL....
Nada is my all time favourite Starcraft player. He is the best ever.
from an outside perspective, it looks like nada because of most medals
in korea, boxer is considered the GOAT, no questions asked (some people from S.K. back me up here). i've been there many times and people can't talk about starcraft without bringing up lim yo hwan
flash is the greatest player of all time, in terms of actual gameplaying ability. the level of competition nowadays is so much higher, and flash has demonstrated complete mastery over every aspect of bwing skills.
as such, neither nada or boxer has a claim on the best player, so i'm not sure nada gets that many points for being a better player skillwise and stylewise over boxer in a discussion of legacy.
in terms of strategic innovation, oov or savior outdo them both as well.
Nada's accomplishment CAN be surpassed. Both Jaedong and Flash look ready to break Nada's title count.
Boxer's legacy CAN NOT be surpassed by ANYBODY. He is the father of brood war progaming, the innovator of the Terran race back when it was UP, the ONLY progamer to reach into the hearts of the mainstream, the sole ICON of e-sport, the discoverer of micro play, the founder of TWO (he literally created SKT and was instrumental in the creation of ACE) of the twelve (now ten) pro-gaming teams, the cause behind the creation of the Golden Mouse, involved with the greatest rivalry (Boxer/Yellow) in e-sport history, the oldest progamer alive, etc etc.
and...
ReketSomething Lee jae dong will dominate everyone in 2011.
I think iloveoov desperately needs to be mentioned here.
There are many reasons why one may be better than the other, like teams they founded, teams they furthered, captained, lead etc.
But NaDa has no sucessor. BaBy? lol
Now look at BoxeR, he has iloveoov. Remember Gilette 2004 and 2005, BoxeR could have taken those (OOOH NaDa's got moaar winz!) but there was his protege iloveoov in the way.
Really, watch those retro TvT's, they're quite epic (a certain game 4 on Requiem comes to mind... )
Now look, what did Oov + BoxeR do? Watch Batoo 2008 and find out, its called Terrorism, the TERRORIST FANTASY!
Has NaDa been able to transfer his skills and knowledge so completely to not just one but a legacy of SK T1 geniuses? Why has SK T1 always been better than Pantech_EX, Wemade_Fox ?
On November 05 2010 02:42 bITt.mAN wrote: Has NaDa been able to transfer his skills and knowledge so completely to not just one but a legacy of SK T1 geniuses? Why has SK T1 always been better than Pantech_EX, Wemade_Fox ?
No one is going to deny that Boxer is a strategic genius, but that argument is very flawed. There are other variables in the way. Maybe Boxer is better at teaching? Maybe Fantasy is more talented than Baby?
SlayerS_BoxeR is by far the greatest player of all time, Nada wouldn't know how to play Terran if BoxeR did not innovate and discover how Terran is to be played.
On November 05 2010 22:13 undyinglight wrote: SlayerS_BoxeR is by far the greatest player of all time, Nada wouldn't know how to play Terran if BoxeR did not innovate and discover how Terran is to be played.
NO, it was Blizzard developers who discovered terran. They are the goats.
how much did boxer teach oov anyway? oov was beasting before he turned pro and his style is totally different from boxer's. oov's mechanics and micro weren't allt hat good, he won because of correct macro level decision-making.
Boxer: Most influential Oov: Most dominant Nada: Most successful Flash: Most skilled player, best terran Savior: Best zerg Bisu: Best protoss Reach+Zergbong: Best Starcraft Duo
Ofc, I would much rather say nice things about Stork, Jaedong, and a few other favorites, but alas I can't lie to myself.
I read through the last 9 pages and everyone finds a new way to "prove" or argue why player x is the best or why his definition of "best" is the best Since the OP was very vague there will be no conclusing - or there will be many. Personally I am happy that there is every single one of the players named here because all of them did a great job for eSports and all of them gave me great moments and nice memories. I dunno if I could pick one, but I don't see a reason nor do I want to.
it's always been that boxer is the innovative player, who started BW/proscene, and Nada was the one who won everything, but was less loved. It's very similar to the jaedong savior dynamic (before savior was implicated in the match fixing)
Are we only including "personal success"? And choose to just ignore Proleague Championship and GRAND CHAMPIONSHIP to be included in a players success?
If that's not the case, NaDa shouldn't even be CONSIDERED the "most successful/most medals". Oov tops NaDa in success department and so can Boxer AND Flash. Only if you choose to flat out IGNORE all the proleague team games, then yes, NaDa is the most "individualy successful" (even then... not by much...), but what? G.O.A.T? If you include proleague to players achievement (which I think it should OBVIOUSLY be included) then NaDa is nowhere near successful as Boxer, Oov, or Flash.
But in terms of who had the most fame and glory, hands down Boxer. ---------------------------------------------------- Boxer = Greatest Player of All Time. (Most Innovative, Most Loved, Most Well Known, Most Success (If including proleague))
NaDa = Not the Most Well-Known (Boxer), Never the most loved/most fans (Boxer), Never the longest peak time (KeSPA Boxer), Never the most creative (Boxer), Never the most dominant (Savior, Oov, Flash), But yes, Greatest INDIVIDUAL Medal Count if you ONLY include Individual tournaments and, of course WCG absolutely cannot be included because then Oov and Boxer will top NaDa too easily. Who care if Oov and Flash had to win Korea WCG tournament to go right? (Jaedong and Flash, 1 short but still active) Of course Flash winning GOM tournament cannot be included as personal success because it cannot be said the same for NaDa. ---------------------------------------------------- If Most Successful means who earned the most money out of SC, again, Boxer. If Most Successful means who has the greatest influence (in game play and outside of game) in E-Sports History, again, Boxer. If Most Successful means who got most girls out of SC, then again, Boxer.
IGNORE EVERYTHING AND WITH VERY NARROW-MINDED VIEW then yes NaDa is the Most "SUCCESSFUL", AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, NaDa is somehow translated to be THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME IN E-SPORTS HISTORY.
EPT
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