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On October 11 2010 05:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:40 Lightwip wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung). I expect a minister of culture to be aware of the culture of others. You don't go into a dispute expecting the other party to conform fully to your own cultural quirks. And in terms of position, the CEO of a multibillion multinational is a hell of a lot more successful than the vice minister for culture.
Yeah, but you also don't insult a government official when you're trying to do business in THEIR country. Even if you're the head of a multi-billion corporation. It's like a white man living in an asian guy's house and insulting the asian guy's decor. It's a terrible thing to do, even if his decor really does suck.
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Well assuming both sides being wrong, i would think that the one being wrong first will be held more responsible?
I dont know what is more painful.. Idiotic uninformed 1-liner or long-winded informed essays.. Pretty much the only argument that Blizz fans are yapping around is that "Its a Blizz-made game so they can do whatever they want with it".. Cmon theres a reason we have laws against Child Abuse.. Just cos you created something does not, and should not mean you have full control over its usage in society.. Much more so in Blizz case where they even already got PAID for it.
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This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free".
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Lets look at the present situation. Blizzard wants to be reimbursed for Kespa profiting from using Blizzards IP. (Before you say that Kespa is non-profit, try to figure out what that actually means). Blizzard did not pursue E-sports in the way Kespa did, which is really the only thing Kespa has going for themselves. The "Kespa advertised Starcraft for Blizzard" argument is mute if there was no deal beforehand. Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement? On one hand, there is the fact that they did nothing to help E-sports grow, and just sat and went on to their next project. On the other hand, they created the game that spurred the only real legitimate E-sport ever. If that isn't helping "e-sports", I really do not know what is. How could anyone help E-sports grow more than the teams that create these E-sports-viable games?
It really makes perfect sense why Blizzard had a grudge with Kespa. They wanted nothing to do with Blizzard from the beginning. They did not ask for permission, or asked to partner up, or anything of that sort. Obviously they aren't going to be giving up their new E-sports baby to this organization without a fight.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free".
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Lets look at the present situation. Blizzard wants to be reimbursed for Kespa profiting from using Blizzards IP. (Before you say that Kespa is non-profit, try to figure out what that actually means). Blizzard did not pursue E-sports in the way Kespa did, which is really the only thing Kespa has going for themselves. The "Kespa advertised Starcraft for Blizzard" argument is mute if there was no deal beforehand. Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement? On one hand, there is the fact that they did nothing to help E-sports grow, and just sat and went on to their next project. On the other hand, they created the game that spurred the only real legitimate E-sport ever. If that isn't helping "e-sports", I really do not know what is. How could anyone help E-sports grow more than the teams that create these E-sports-viable games?
It really makes perfect sense why Blizzard had a grudge with Kespa. They wanted nothing to do with Blizzard from the beginning. They did not ask for permission, or asked to partner up, or anything of that sort. Obviously they aren't going to be giving up their new E-sports baby to this organization without a fight.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
Let me be a little personal with my first comment and say this..
omgwtf another one of those SC2 idiot who knows nothing but come along to BW forums and write Essays about how their fking Blizz is best!!!
Right, now you clearly have not done your homework and read up on any of these issues.. You probably read a few post here and there in this thread and assume you know everything and immediately head forward to writing your essay. Let me help trying to break it down for you.
If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show.
No shit, where would you find another 11 multi-billion dollars company to sponsor SC like those 11 from Kespa did? You obviously think Kespa is just another little firm organising tournaments, so i ll spell it out for you.. Those 11 from Kespa make your beloved Acti-Blizz look like a homeless beggar when u wanna compare wealth. And there wont "simply be another" such group around.
Most games' sales almost die out completely after 1 year post-release.. Look at BW, it continue to sell for 4 times the amount. What was it that set it apart from the rest?.. I would say it was the fact that BW had professionals players developing it to such a work of art that it is today. Sure, the game had near-perfect balance and dynamic gameplay.. But guess who found that out? Not the pros "where you live" but our Korean guys. Seeing as how this phenomenon started in Korea from the hands of Kespa, i see no reason to discredit them for what they have done..
You realise that when all these tournaments are organised, they actually BOUGHT the games from Blizz right? Your analogy where Private Server players (in WoW) does not pay Blizz is irrelevant. Kespa did pay Blizz for the games that they use.
And before you yaps about how Kespa being non-profit is nonsense, why dont you explain your reasons? "A non-profit organization (abbreviated as NPO, also known as a not-for-profit organization[1]) is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals" - Wikipedia. Kespa declared that all profits earned are redirected back to organising ProLeague, paying the players, etc.. Until you have proven otherwise It will be taken as the truth.
Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement?
Another one of your twisted analogy.. Kespa did not ask Blizz to pay anything, they only want to be left alone, just as Jordan should be left alone after wearing Nike for 10years. Now if Nike suddenly says "Hey bitch you wore my shoe for 10 years (note: you did pay for the shoe) and earn money while doing that, pay me!", would that make sense? Also take note that theoretically, Kespa doesnt even earn money while organising SC:BW tourneys.
Blizz's creation of a wonderful game (read Brood War, not Starcrap2) was already rewarded with legendary sales figure. And you would think that Blizz should prefer to further their collaboration with someone whos been relentlessly advertising their game over a decade, in order to promote and improve the sale of their new game, rather than trying to squish that guy because they are covetting the infrastructure for E-Sport that the other guy has laid down.
Your last paragraph is so full of garbage its a waste of time to go into details.. I ll just tell you that those things are actually reasonable if you consider the fact that they are paid professionals.. And E-Sport outside of Korea is, as you can see, is non-existent at the moment.. How the fk are you pissed that an organisation formed by Korean firms and Korean ministry of Culture focus on developing the scene in Korea?.. Blame your own country for not having the equivalent.. Not that theres any hope for E-Sport in Canada (or anywhere else), mind..
Edit: Typos
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You'r wall of text covered the best part in text...
The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea
its KeSPA, "Korean e-Sports Players Association" Why would they need to spread e-sport outside of Korea, that would be outright silly. Providing streams etc outside of Korea, is up to televisio channels to do and in some content they have done it aka. OGN streams.
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Russian Federation124 Posts
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On October 11 2010 08:19 Jienny wrote:You'r wall of text covered the best part in text... Show nested quote +The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea its KeSPA, " Korean e-Sports Players Association" Why would they need to spread e-sport outside of Korea, that would be outright silly. Providing streams etc outside of Korea, is up to televisio channels to do and in some content they have done it aka. OGN streams.
Yup pretty much, and lol at you discrediting the OSL finals in China as not "outside of korea." Let me just put it to you this way, there is almost zero chance of e-sports being established outside of korea.
The mentality of people outside korea just won't accept playing "video games" as being a professional job.Yes, there is TL, but if you think about it, TL is worldwide and is a hell of a lot smaller than the korean fanbase. The place outside of korea which has the most potential to accept esports is China, and that is why I'm guessing kespa is trying to expand there.
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On October 10 2010 18:28 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely. You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway.
U actually seriously think Kespa makes no profit?????????????????? are u crazy.
The games are televised their are sponsors food events at the gsl and msl all is major revenue or else they would give good player a million dollar contract
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On October 11 2010 09:41 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:28 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely. You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway. U actually seriously think Kespa makes no profit?????????????????? are u crazy. The games are televised their are sponsors food events at the gsl and msl all is major revenue or else they would give good player a million dollar contract
Please, Darkren or sk`, do tell me how they make a profit.
How are their profits shared? Does KT, SKT or Samsung get a greater percentage of these profits you speak of, because they are bigger? (excuse my ignorance on the company sizes)
I would really appreciate if any kespa profit screaming boys could enlighten us on this matter.
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"No shit, where would you find another 11 multi-billion dollars company to sponsor SC like those 11 from Kespa did? You obviously think Kespa is just another little firm organising tournaments, so i ll spell it out for you.. Those 11 from Kespa make your beloved Acti-Blizz look like a homeless beggar when u wanna compare wealth. And there wont "simply be another" such group around."
Sorry for my ignorance but as far as I know, Kespa is NOT the 11 corporations that are sponsoring the teams. Those 11 corporations are independent entities that are sponsoring Kespa teams. No idea why you are making it out to be that Kespa are those 11 corporations or in anyway control them. You seem to miss my point anyway. My point was that it really could have been any organization that could have formed this. Organization X would want to start an SC league, they wanted teams, they would also want sponsors for these teams.
Most games' sales almost die out completely after 1 year post-release.
So if a game sells after its first year, it is automatically because of Korean pros? I found out about SC in 2002 when I lived in a 3rd world country with no internet. Friends come over, we would LAN it up and the whole works. Why? Because it was a great game. We didn't even have any idea about the pro scene. I know a lot of people that were in the same position as I am. My brother, who doesn't play games at all, would play SC when his old friends are around. It was a great game. Thats why people buy it. Here is my theory on record sales. After a few years, the price dropped dramatically such that people in poor countries could afford it. Since RTS aren't exactly abundant, and good ones are very rare, it still sold a lot. People mention sales went up dramatically, but does anyone know if the profits went up as much? Most games don't sell well after the first year, because the companies release a sequel a year later (i.e sport games, halo, cod, etc.). I'm not sure if my theory is correct, but neither are you. Unless you can find a legitimate source stating that a shit ton of copies was sold in Korea at a certain price. And even then, it would probably be very minimal.
I don't know what you actually mean by "bought the games" from Blizzard. Do you mean they bought the rights? Either way I haven't heard so I'm guessing I'm misinformed. I just used the information people posted here, that they did not ask for a license to broadcast BW games. (Feel free to correct me if this is wrong). If you meant that they bought actual game copies, then my point stands. When you pay $15 a month for WoW, you are paying for the server you play online for, not the actual game (that's part of the initial amount). Buying SC allows you to play on Battle.net. By creating servers other than Battle.net, you are essentially doing the same thing as the private WoW server. Yes, ICCUP is in the wrong as well. But then again, they were not a "11 multi billion dollar company"
My analogy is actually quite sound. Its only twisted if you misinterpret it. What I'm trying to say is Jordan is not entitled to any money in the first option. This was particularly aimed at the people who were saying Blizz should not ask Kespa for money because Kespa was advertising their game for them, so its even. Its not even because Blizzard does not owe Kespa anything.
For the non-profit tidbit, it's non-profit in the sense that they don't declare any profits. That is because they put all profits back into their product, and in turn don't get taxed.
As for the last paragraph, I stand by what I said. The fact that they are paid professionals doesn't mean that we can kill the spirit of competition. Have you seen how fast these guys play? They are bound to hit a wrong key at some point. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92204 . Looks more like running a business than a competition if you ask me.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa... This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
I don't hate Kespa, I don't care about Kespa. Kespa does not affect my life in any way, shape, or form. You want to know who might though? Blizzard. Obviously Kespa will only care about Korean e-sports, I realize this. I don't wish death up on the Korean e-Sports scene, but a Blizzard victory has a bigger chance of brining E-sports to the western world (I guess I can say world since Korea is the only country that has it) than Kespa ever will. Like Kespa only caring about E-sports development in their territory, I only care about E-sports development in my area. Thus it makes perfect sense for me to support Blizzard. I'm sure one day, there will be another country that will join in onto the E-sports wagon. I'm not sure, however, about why you have no hope for any other country. The only difference is the mainstream culture. However, if people over here didn't care, this site wouldn't exist.
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I would ONLY believe that Blizzard is trying to expand E-Sport if they are actually getting sponsors and ACTUALLY CREATING THEIR OWN TEAM IN NA! Like in Korea, if Blizzard TRULY wanted to expand the E-Sport, they would've gotten their own proleague in USA already but they are not doing it atm despite them having more money than Kespa.
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"the only difference is the mainstream culture".
pretty sure thats a small difference  and not the biggest.
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No, KeSPA IS the corporations. SK Telecom is currently the corporation that is the head of the board. If you don't even know the situation you should really stop talking about it and using so many words to say so little when its all misinformed junk. If you don't care about Korean eSports then heres an idea; Don't post about it.
You are delusional if you think killing the BW scene will somehow magically make eSports successful elsewhere in the world, why do you think that would even be a good thing. Killing off the longest running most successful leagues, yeah that really will encourage the development and growth of eSports won't it? Blizzard themselves clearly know it's not even viable elsewhere hence why to take part in the 'international tournament' that is the GSL you have to pretty much live in Korea in the first place. You should be over on their forums complaining to them why they have made zero effort to run Starleagues in other countries if you care so much, not whining about KeSPA.
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Do you really think sinking KeSPA will bring e-sports to the western world?
It will do exactly the opposite. It will show that it can't be done. Anyone who thinks about starting up e-sports will remember how it happened in Korea and decide against it. KeSPA is the one chance to show that it can be viable.
You know the real reason e-sports doesn't exist in the west? Because a lot of people think LOLOL KOREANZ R NURDZ FOR WATCHING DEM STARCRAFTS. It's not seen as something legitimate, just a ridiculous part of Korean culture. If the culture was more accepting of gamers(such as calling them by their real names for one), then e-sports could be in the west too.
KeSPA dies= e-sports loses legitimacy=no more e-sports.
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i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
Please read the thread before commenting... seriously, this was posted 2 pages ago:
On October 10 2010 16:03 ffreakk wrote:
@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself.
Do those conditions sound reasonable? I think not. Kespa also agreed to paying royalties, but did not agree to any of the other above terms.
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
KeSPA is willing to pay for licensing, however there were many more unreasonable demands Blizzard were making such as them having control and basically owning the players contracts, owning any media produced for Starcraft (so effectively owning the broadcasts), wanting a percentage of all sponsorships for teams/tournaments and many more. This is unprecedented so its questionable if they have a legal right to be demanding so much just because their game is used.
A judge would probably also take into consideration the fact Blizzard practically semi-condoned the proscene for many years and seemed to have no problem with it until they coincidentally happen to have a new product coming out that would compete with it... We didn't see Blizzard making any noise at all back in the peak days of proleague with 100k people turning up to watch the finals and free publicity and large BW sales generated in Korea from the hype.
Edit: Ah a lot of the terms wanted are in the post above. I think anyone can agree its unreasonable and eSports could not even continue how it is now under such ridiculous terms, basically being held hostage by the game developer for every aspect of it when it should be independent.
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
People who makes posts like these from now on should be warned. Do your homework before posting.
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First of all I don't think blizz would be that rude, and secondly blizz brings up a valid point in international negotiations.
If you really wanted to get nitty-gritty, the argument could go like this:
Blizz: "WTF man you're not respecting international trade agreements over intellectual property. W.T.F."
S.K.: "Who the hell are you, you're just some president of some corporation."
Blizz: "Yeah let's see what the US state department has to say about these treaties being violated."
U.S. : "Hey blizz what's up you're a large AMERICAN company and of course we'll do whatever we can to support you. What's that, S.K isn't respecting your intellectual property? Lets look into it and see what the problem is and see if our trade agreements need to be revisited."
U.S: "Hey S.K. got a problem with our international trade agreement"
S.K. "Oh shit sorry it's just a small problem we'll take care of it, no need for you to get involved, I'm sure an amicable arrangement can be made between us and blizz, no problemo."
I also don't think that blizz is looking to destroy e-sports as well. I figure e-sports may well form a fundamental of their future business plans and they want the control so they can grow it more effectively, especially in countries outside of S.K. You don't get to be the head of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and short sighted.
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On October 11 2010 11:30 sikyon wrote:
First of all I don't think blizz would be that rude, and secondly blizz brings up a valid point in international negotiations.
If you really wanted to get nitty-gritty, the argument could go like this:
Blizz: "WTF man you're not respecting international trade agreements over intellectual property. W.T.F."
S.K.: "Who the hell are you, you're just some president of some corporation."
Blizz: "Yeah let's see what the US state department has to say about these treaties being violated."
U.S. : "Hey blizz what's up you're a large AMERICAN company and of course we'll do whatever we can to support you. What's that, S.K isn't respecting your intellectual property? Lets look into it and see what the problem is and see if our trade agreements need to be revisited."
U.S: "Hey S.K. got a problem with our international trade agreement"
S.K. "Oh shit sorry it's just a small problem we'll take care of it, no need for you to get involved, I'm sure an amicable arrangement can be made between us and blizz, no problemo."
I also don't think that blizz is looking to destroy e-sports as well. I figure e-sports may well form a fundamental of their future business plans and they want the control so they can grow it more effectively, especially in countries outside of S.K. You don't get to be the head of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and short sighted.
Goldman Sachs anyone? Citibank? Bank of America?
Blizzard is ran by a combination between Vivendi Entertainment and Activision, if you don't think they are capable of being incorrigible in negotiations than you need to do some more research.
I don't see how blizzard has any case whatsoever in terms of controlling the rights of basically everything surrounding the game and pro-scene just because they made the game. Whoever invented chess and their ancestors would have claim to billions and billions of dollars in that case. Every copy of Brood War that is played on television has been payed for legally, so people should be able to do with their property of what they bought how they see fit.
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EPT
