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Note: This is a translation of a blog entry.
Someone posted a snippet of a blog post on PGR21.com, of a guy who posted a first person account of a meeting between Mike Morhaime and the Department of Culture's vice Minister. Due to its sensitive nature, the blog post was quickly deleted by the writer. However, small portions were recoverable by using search engines, and me being a curious little bugger google searched everyline and used the preview to recover the entire post 8)
Gives you a little bit of an idea of what's truly going on, huh
+ Show Spoiler +
"블리자드에 정부가 흔들리면 안돼"- 지난달 블리자드 MM 사장이 우리 문광부 차관을 만났습니다. 관련기사는 죄다 "화기애애한 분위기""계혹 협의하기로 해""진전 보여"같은 식으로 났습니다만.- 실상은 조금, 아니 많이 달랐죠. 만나자마자 MM사장은"한국이 국제 룰을 지키지 않고 있다능!""저작권 안지키는거 어칼거냐능!!"이라고 '항의'를 했습니다. 그리고 우리네 차관은 당연한 반응"일개 업체 사장이 주제를 모르고 감히 차관님하께!!!"라고 역정을 내셨죠 orz...- 싸해진 분위기를 주변에서 수습하고 다음에 다시이야기하자고 헤어졌지만 이미 블리자드는 한국과 어떤 협상이 될거라는 기대를 버렸다는 관측이 지배적이었습니다.케스파가 뒤늦게 돈줄테니 합의하자고 했지만(3~5억 제시설) 콧방귀도 안꼈고. 어제는 급기야"GSL 해외로 나갈 수도…"라는 이야기가 나왔습니다. 제 개인적인 생각으로도 정부와 싸워가며, 이미 밉보인 건 확실해졌는데 남아있을 필요가 없는 거 아닌가 싶은데 야당의원의 저 발언을 보니 블리자드가 스타2 안될 때 하던 하소연"외국계 기업이라고 너무한다"가 생각나는군요 orz 어제 국감자료로나온"샨다가 우리기업 막 사는 등 중국 게임계의 한국침략이 심해지고 있다능!!"가 생각나 실소도 나오고 이래저래 늘 그렇듯 올해도 개그국감은 계속되는 것 같습니다.- MM사장은 뭐랄까; 오바마를 만나도 저런 말은 안 들을 텐데, 평생 못해볼 진귀한 경험을 했으니 그걸로 만족하면 되겠죠(응?!)
Rough Translation:
"The Government Shouldn't be shaken by Blizzard" -
Last Month, Blizzard's President Mike Morhaime met with the Vice Minister of Korean Department of Culture. The related articles were published saying "A Warm, Accepting Atmosphere", "Promise to continue negotiating", "Progress Seen", but reality was a little, no, a lot different.
As soon as they met, Mike Morhaime started "protesting", exclaiming "Korea isn't following international rules, huh!" "What are you gonna do about people not respecting intellectual property rights!!!". The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!" [T/N: lines are said in a much angrier tone on statements from both MM and Minister]. orz....
So the people around recovered the demolished atmosphere and disbanded after agreeing to talk about next time, but the dominating viewpoint that Blizzard has already given up any hopes of being able to negotiate with Korea. KeSPA has offered money to settle rather late (3~500 million won), but Blizzard didn't even flinch, and yesterday there was people talking about "GSL may be going overseas...".
Personally I think they have no reason to stay when it's now certain that they're looked upon scornfully especially when they have to fight against the Government, but after looking at the statement said by the opposing party, I was reminded of when Blizzard vented "You guys are going too far just because we're a foreign company" orz... I'm reminded of the materials released yesterday about how China is buying a lot of Korean companies and how China's gaming industry is invading Korea, and as always, I think the comedy is continuing.
About President MM... It's something he won't hear even if he meets Obama, so because he just had a very unique experience he will never have again, he should be satisfied with that? (huh?)
Apparently the Government's stance is that while the game isn't communal property, it's hard to see it as a completely private property, according to this guy's follow up posts.
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Blizzard vs Korea
Good luck blizzard.
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United States33128 Posts
Honestly don't know if this is good or bad...
Does the korean government really have KeSPA's back? And even so, it's a judiciary matter if it goes to trial anyway, so will that even matter? This thing does seem more and more likely to go to court at this pace.
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The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
I like this line.
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I really don't think it would be wise for Blizzard to bad mouth a government organization. The government generally has the power to screw you over if they don't like you.
The Ministry of Culture is directly connected to this scene, I don't think they should've said this.
As soon as they met, Mike Morhaime started "protesting", exclaiming "Korea isn't following international rules, huh!"
What exactly is this line supposed to accomplish?
The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Ouch.
So the people around recovered the demolished atmosphere and disbanded after agreeing to talk about next time, but the dominating viewpoint that Blizzard has already given up any hopes of being able to negotiate with Korea.
Does this mean they'll stop business in Korea? That's a damn terrible idea.
yesterday there was people talking about "GSL may be goin goverseas..."
That may sink any popularity it ever had...
I think they have no reason to stay when it's now certain that they're looked upon scornfully especially when they have to fight against the Government
In no small part their own fault.
"You guys are going too far just because we're a foreign company"
Even if true, saying this is just gonna piss the other party off. When the other party is the government, you don't want this.
orz... I'm reminded of the materials released yesterday about how Chin
Apparently the Government's stance is that while the game isn't communal property, it's hard to see it as a completely private property, according to this guy's follow up posts.
This is as good as it could possibly get considering international laws.
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United States238 Posts
Considering KeSPA is related to some of the biggest corporations in Korea, yes, they have a hand or two into the Korean government system in more ways than just gaming.
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This just in, Blizzard after signing with Activision and releasing SC2 finally feels ready in their newly-found arrogance to.. take on... a fliping country...
Really? -_-'
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I wish Blizzard would just take the money. While I've never really approved of Kespa's way of handling things I am reminded of Peter's decision (in family guy) making of whether or not to take the boat or the mystery box. "The boat is a boat, but the box could be anything, even a boat!".
It really seems like Blizzard just want to push and push this until they get some unknown quantity of benefits (or lose their position altogether) It's an interesting gambit, but it's certainly not something anyone interested in both SC2 and BW can take as a good sign. I want BW to survive in Korea more than I want SC2, so taking the GSL somewhere else could potentially not be a bad thing. But damnit I want to have my cake and eat it too!
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That doesn't sound like MM at all.
The ministry sounds like Kespa a while ago with the "Who do you think you are" rebuttle. I'm just going, what is this block of text?
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gogo korea!
stuff gsl overseas please! and broodwar will liiiiive!
+ Show Spoiler +ok fine gsl will die miserably if it goes overseas. but AT LEAST BW WILL LIIIVE
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The more I hear about this case the less I like Blizzard. Honestly at this point I regret buying StarCraft 2.
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Can't see GSL moving out overseas from Korea.
Not only will they not be able to find sponsors to organize tournaments of the size of GSL 1 or 2, Korean pro-gamers wouldn't join in making it a amateur-level tournament at best.
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I'm not surprised. I've been saying from the beginning of this debacle that SC programing in Korea is an incredibly effective means of advertising for some of Korea's largest commercial entities. Chaebol don't have as much influence of the government as they did back before the Asian Financial Crisis, but they're still immensely powerful, and most of them utterly dwarf Activision/Blizzard. If this goes beyond negotiations and the government, either through courts or legislation, is forced to get involved, Blizzard will lose ... badly.
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On October 07 2010 15:07 ComusLoM wrote: I want BW to survive in Korea more than I want SC2, so taking the GSL somewhere else could potentially not be a bad thing. But damnit I want to have my cake and eat it too!
If GSL goes overseas it will die.
1. I don't think GOM is big enough to sponsor overseas operations like that(confirm/deny?)
2. Korea is the most pop.-dense supporter of e-sports
3. They lose a lot of credibility if people know the government got rid of them.
In all honesty the only way to keep them both running is if they resolve this peacefully.
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On October 07 2010 15:09 overt wrote:
The more I hear about this case the less I like Blizzard. Honestly at this point I regret buying StarCraft 2.
QFT. Blizzard looks like they are trying to boss around a country (like Nike does with Indonesia, etc) because they are a multi-national corporation. If the translation and the news is correct, it was very disrespectful to talk to a Minister like that, just because it is a foreign country. I'm sure he would not talk to any departmental secretaries in the US like he did in that meeting.
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Its not blizzard fighting against the government though.... its a fight against the corporate interests that back the Korean government. Kespa also happens to be a representative of said interests in the circle jerk that is politics.
Im more surprised at Mike flipping out and pulling the racism card. That is kind of taboo but it was pretty obvious that Blizzard wouldnt get the same backing from the government as a local company would.
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On October 07 2010 15:12 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:07 ComusLoM wrote: I want BW to survive in Korea more than I want SC2, so taking the GSL somewhere else could potentially not be a bad thing. But damnit I want to have my cake and eat it too! If GSL goes overseas it will die. 1. I don't think GOM is big enough to sponsor overseas operations like that(confirm/deny?) 2. Korea is the most pop.-dense supporter of e-sports 3. They lose a lot of credibility if people know the government got rid of them. In all honesty the only way to keep them both running is if they resolve this peacefully.
GSL would most probably die, yes, but if it could survive outside of Korea it would set a huge precedent for E-Sports in the Foreign scene (not a bad thing_. But as I said, I want both BW and SC2 to run alongside each other in harmony (like volleyball and beach volleyball) in Korea.
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Cmon, Blizzard look down on people some more, and try and boss them around more.
They seriously need to get their head out of their asses.
GSL will definitely die if it goes overseas. Maybe, they should learn to actually follow the rules of the place instead of trying to boss everyone around.
Looks like it might be GG soon 
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United States238 Posts
Bad news for Korea:
http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339
In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy.
If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
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On October 07 2010 15:15 T0fuuu wrote:
Its not blizzard fighting against the government though.... its a fight against the corporate interests that back the Korean government. Kespa also happens to be a representative of said interests in the circle jerk that is politics.
Im more surprised at Mike flipping out and pulling the racism card. That is kind of taboo but it was pretty obvious that Blizzard wouldnt get the same backing from the government as a local company would.
No government would be happy to see a foreign company trying to push around one of their own.
Not to mention the leverage a domestic company would have on their own goverment.
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My completely unprofessional read from this is that if the government truly was backing KeSPA 100%, things wouldn't have gone this long without a definite response. KeSPA likely would have just said 'alright, we're starting everything back up as usual, and if you don't like it you can try to prove your supposed IP rights in court'. But then again, if this account is true, pissing off government officials is a great way to get them to back your enemies over you.
I really hope KeSPA proves victorious if this goes to court. Not because of who they are, but because it's a ridiculous thought that eSports should be under complete control of the game designers. Hell, that's too nice a way to put it. The actual designers have almost no part in this - it's simply the corporate entity arguing for draconian IP rights so that it can milk as much cash out of each product as possible. I liked things much better when the idea of eSports providing tons of high-quality free advertising was enough to keep companies happy.
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51374 Posts
Remember it's Activision-Blizzard vs Korea, not just Blizzard, so this will be interesting ;d
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France2061 Posts
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all.
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Blizzard is screwed they already have a problem with China and North Korea. Doing something to piss off the Korean government by looking like cocky "average" Americans isn't something thats going to go well with South Korean government. The fact that some embassy members were there for the USA just makes this an even bigger problem for the US. You think Obama is going to possibly lose overseas support against a country run by one of the biggest tyrants of our time?
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On October 07 2010 15:23 GTR wrote:
Remember it's Activision-Blizzard vs Korea, not just Blizzard, so this will be interesting ;d
If you mean that in how they're going to act, then I suppose it will.
If you mean that in how much power they have, it'll change nothing.
Also, I'd see the Vice Minister being especially pissed if someone younger than him bad-mouthed him. Asians generally don't like that.
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I think both parties are in the wrong here imo. I agree that Blizzard is shafted because they are a foreign corporation and Korea is very protective about their industries (political?). But Blizzard is not approaching this with enough tact and cultural sensitivity ( or maybe they had been just that it has not been working and they finally snapped and had enough)
can anyone enlighten me about sc2 in china? is it banned ? i know there is a taiwan server but if it is not in mainland china then i doubt sc2 will boom.
but it does seem like there will be a race to expand to china. looks like china will the first real battleground for bw vs sc2.
whats the likely outcome if blizzard brings this to international court? is there any precedent.
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51374 Posts
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On October 07 2010 15:23 Sworn wrote:
Blizzard is screwed they already have a problem with China and North Korea. Doing something to piss off the Korean government by looking like cocky "average" Americans isn't something thats going to go well with South Korean government. The fact that some embassy members were there for the USA just makes this an even bigger problem for the US. You think Obama is going to possibly lose overseas support against a country run by one of the biggest tyrants of our time?
I can't understand how one could possibly connect the dispute beween S. Korea and Blizzard with China or N. Korea.
If you were actually referring to S. Korea government in your last sentence, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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No PL until this matter solved?
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Whether this case gets held on international court or not, it will be hugely influential for any future casings of IP.
I definitely root against Blizzard on this one, they can't just claim everything and anything that's made with SC2 to be their property.
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I can't read Korean, but it doesn't look like anything too conclusive came of that article.
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5003 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:33 LuciferSC wrote:
Whether this case gets held on international court or not, it will be hugely influential for any future casings of IP.
I definitely root against Blizzard on this one, they can't just claim everything and anything that's made with SC2 to be their property.
but they did claim that!
in fact, their lawyers pretty much stated progames were their property in another convention that was held recently to discuss ip rights
On October 07 2010 15:34 Lightwip wrote:I can't read Korean, but it doesn't look like anything too conclusive came of that article.
the article was just some discussion related to IP rights held by some professor and i think a congressman. nothing amazing occurred, other than jaedong being there.
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I've always thought of Blizzard (the corporate entity) as a douchebag, but I guess it's more of Dustin Browder and their CEO, making SC2 pretty shitty compared to BW (for now), and trying to destroy BW.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there
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"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem.
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AS a Korean citizen,
I truly hope to enchant psionic storms on the heads of those stupid bureaucrats (and KeSPA).
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France2061 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:35 NeCroPoTeNce wrote:
I've always thought of Blizzard (the corporate entity) as a douchebag, but I guess it's more of Dustin Browder and their CEO, making SC2 pretty shitty compared to BW (for now), and trying to destroy BW.
Why do people bring Dustin Browder into this... Poor guy is already being ragged on for the game design and balance issues, no need to drag him into a dispute in which he probably has little to no involvement.
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On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem.
Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about.
Blizzard rep is talking to Korean government representatives in Korea, in their house, not his.
Doesn't matter what country or culture it is, you respect their authoritative figures just as you'd expect them to do the same to yours.
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On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem.
Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung).
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United States238 Posts
Koreans are well aware of a problem that some people in position of serious power (whether it be in age, seniority, or literal power) in Korea tend to... think of everyone underneath them as really underneath them (and won't hide that attitude).
So that's not really a proud part of Korean culture, nor one that should be respected.
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On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem.
it's like the equivalent of the landlord being rude to vito corleone in the godfather II... you don't talk in that tone to that kind of person unless you want a beat down bad
More of a cultural difference than anything but i think what mike morhaime said was pretty damn rude/crude whatever language or culture you put it in... you don't start off a conversation by proclaiming your heavily and currently contested opinion as fact, in a rude tone and manner, to a foreign politician
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On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about.
I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:23 Sworn wrote:
Blizzard is screwed they already have a problem with China and North Korea. Doing something to piss off the Korean government by looking like cocky "average" Americans isn't something thats going to go well with South Korean government. The fact that some embassy members were there for the USA just makes this an even bigger problem for the US. You think Obama is going to possibly lose overseas support against a country run by one of the biggest tyrants of our time?
.......what are you talking about? how is north korea even involved?
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On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique.
Do you know anything about Korean culture? Respecting elders is damn important.
Regardless of whether or not you agree, you don't disrespect foreign cultures unless you want to get smacked hard.
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On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique.
I wasn't talking about age difference. It's called respecting authorities.
Try walking up to a policeman and give him a middle finger, never mind a senate. You'll see what happens.
And see if anyone supports you for disrespecting a public authoritative figure.
You've got it totally wrong bud.
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konadora
Singapore66116 Posts
lol blizzard's such a bitch
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On October 07 2010 15:40 Selith wrote:
Koreans are well aware of a problem that some people in position of serious power (whether it be in age, seniority, or literal power) in Korea tend to... think of everyone underneath them as really underneath them (and won't hide that attitude).
So that's not really a proud part of Korean culture, nor one that should be respected.
That's more of extreme cases, or using their authority to do flagrant activities.
Expecting to get/give respect to authority is common world-wide.
As someone in commanding position you need that authority to do his/her role, it is well deserved.
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Someone want to explain to me how this is in Blizzard's benefit? Why would be rude to an entire country be beneficial in anyway? That country has most of your fans and the people that are going to make SC2 an immortal hit! Why would you compromise that?
If its for the money than that's just fucking pathetic. Maybe Blizzard should adopt Google's motto
"Don't be evil."
Fucking money grubbing douches.
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On October 07 2010 15:35 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there
Given the U.S. and U.N.'s hand in the shaping of law in the Republic of Korea over the past couple decades, I'd believe if the United States said jump that South Korea would say how high. I also don't believe it would ever come to that.
I'm frankly a little skeptical to sink my teeth into this source. It's not exactly quoted from the New York Times (or Korean equivalent).
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I`m stupid, what exactly blizzard and korea are negotiating for?
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On October 07 2010 15:51 mdb wrote:
I`m stupid, what exactly blizzard and korea are negotiating for?
To sum it up in short, IP (intellectual property).
Blizzard claiming that any footage made with their games are their property, thus KESPA needs to pay for broadcasting BW games or holding BW tournaments.
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On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique.
this isn't even a matter of blizzard vs. activision anymore its degenerating into a hate or lubb korea's culture lol
while i agree that there are cons to the system of elder respect in korean culture (placing fairly substantial divisions between grades in schools and society) it does teach all children, youth and adults a degree of respect for their elders. its convenient for the more aged folk who cannot do work for themselves as well as they used to be able to as they can ask for assistance from younger folk all around and can expect some assistance very quickly. and hell, everybody goes through it; don't think that that minister didn't have to do the same for all his elders while his elders "freeloaded" off of him as well.
i really wouldn't use that word btw lots of people take it really seriously T_T
and EVERYBODY who wants to have any success talking to foreign cultures need to learn at least a very basic degree of the other culture, or at least use common sense and try to be more careful with their words until they find a zone of comfort between them. as a part time translator and dude who's learned a lot of languages, pulling a mm is not smart at all. don't try this at school kids.
lern 2 cultural tolerance plz
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If GSL was moved I don't see how it would die as long as it was moved somewhere popular. It definitely wouldn't get as many players though like in Korea. Sigh why can't they just let bw stay how it is and sc2 be as it is. Both need to stop acting so dumb 
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:51 mdb wrote:
I`m stupid, what exactly blizzard and korea are negotiating for?
yeah..I believe its about their negotiations with KeSPA.
I feel this article is a bunch of hogwash for readers to look at.
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On October 07 2010 15:50 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:35 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there Given the U.S. and U.N.'s hand in the shaping of law in the Republic of Korea over the past couple decades, I'd believe if the United States said jump that South Korea would say how high. I also don't believe it would ever come to that. I'm frankly a little skeptical to sink my teeth into this source. It's not exactly quoted from the New York Times (or Korean equivalent).
Korea would probably be pretty willing to do anything the US tells them.
That being said, this is such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, especially for the US. Blizzard has no notable political influence, especially not enough to bribe favor in a huge country. SK chaebols, on the other hand, do have such power. Regardless, it's not really going to escalate much more. Most likely, either Korea will tell Blizzard to GTFO or they will come to some sort of resolution. I don't see the US wanting to back someone who clearly starts trouble in negotiations anyways.
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United States238 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:51 mdb wrote:
I`m stupid, what exactly blizzard and korea are negotiating for?
Originally, KeSPA and Gretech was to work out a deal so that SC1 PL / OSL / MSL would continue. It hasn't come to pass yet.
It's already October, so Korean government (probably at behest of KeSPA, otherwise why would they get involved) got involved. They summoned Blizzard CEO, Mike Morhaime.
So they are going back to settling whether IP of secondary products made through StarCraft is owned by Blizzard or not, once and for all, I would guess. Since the people involved on e-sports side of things continued to stress that 1st IP ownership of the game is important, I guess KeSPA is not going to attempt to say "StarCraft's overall IP doesn't belong to anyone" anymore.
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On October 07 2010 15:50 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:35 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there Given the U.S. and U.N.'s hand in the shaping of law in the Republic of Korea over the past couple decades, I'd believe if the United States said jump that South Korea would say how high. I also don't believe it would ever come to that. I'm frankly a little skeptical to sink my teeth into this source. It's not exactly quoted from the New York Times (or Korean equivalent).
if we were talking about a war or the political equivalent, i would agree with you.
but when it comes to a gaming company's woes, and a minister took that kind of shit from an american dude without substantial political power (and seems to be lacking some manners), the entire country isn't going to stand for it even if there are some FTA guys and the dude's a U.S. citizen
mike morh =/= US
Mike says jump, minister says what the fuck
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On October 07 2010 15:55 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:50 urashimakt wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there Given the U.S. and U.N.'s hand in the shaping of law in the Republic of Korea over the past couple decades, I'd believe if the United States said jump that South Korea would say how high. I also don't believe it would ever come to that. I'm frankly a little skeptical to sink my teeth into this source. It's not exactly quoted from the New York Times (or Korean equivalent). Korea would probably be pretty willing to do anything the US tells them. That being said, this is such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, especially for the US. Blizzard has no notable political influence, especially not enough to bribe favor in a huge country. SK chaebols, on the other hand, do have such power. Regardless, it's not really going to escalate much more. Most likely, either Korea will tell Blizzard to GTFO or they will come to some sort of resolution. I don't see the US wanting to back someone who clearly starts trouble in negotiations anyways.
There certainly has been an image painted here before us of a company harassing a nation, but I'd like to see proof. Like, real savory, beefy proof that tastes like justice.
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Isn't this article fundamentally hearsay? I'd take anything from an "eyewitness account" with a grain of salt, no matter who the source was.
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On October 07 2010 15:54 blade55555 wrote:If GSL was moved I don't see how it would die as long as it was moved somewhere popular. It definitely wouldn't get as many players though like in Korea. Sigh why can't they just let bw stay how it is and sc2 be as it is. Both need to stop acting so dumb
Not only is Korea by far the place where you'd get the most support, but you lose a lot of credibility when YOUR country tells you to leave. That generally indicates that you did something wrong, especially for a country like SK, a democratic country(unlike China and such).
On October 07 2010 15:58 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:55 Lightwip wrote:On October 07 2010 15:50 urashimakt wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. do you think a gaming company's pleas is as large to directly influence the political relations between two large world powers? besides, south korea is not the US's blind bitch, and if a minister took mouth like that from a gaming company head (if the translation is accurate, which it probably is not 100%) then the public at the very least would be very anti-blizzard right now. You don't talk shit to elderly people in positions of power like that without either being in a higher up / more old yourself or you are getting some serious hate there Given the U.S. and U.N.'s hand in the shaping of law in the Republic of Korea over the past couple decades, I'd believe if the United States said jump that South Korea would say how high. I also don't believe it would ever come to that. I'm frankly a little skeptical to sink my teeth into this source. It's not exactly quoted from the New York Times (or Korean equivalent). Korea would probably be pretty willing to do anything the US tells them. That being said, this is such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, especially for the US. Blizzard has no notable political influence, especially not enough to bribe favor in a huge country. SK chaebols, on the other hand, do have such power. Regardless, it's not really going to escalate much more. Most likely, either Korea will tell Blizzard to GTFO or they will come to some sort of resolution. I don't see the US wanting to back someone who clearly starts trouble in negotiations anyways. There certainly has been an image painted here before us of a company harassing a nation, but I'd like to see proof. Like, real savory, beefy proof that tastes like justice.
This story shows some pretty good proof. Not conclusive, but that's a pretty good indication that Blizz is trying to do it.
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I don't see why Blizzard is being so stubborn..........they should just take the money and get on with it...
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I wonder if the main topic of discussion is BW or SC2? I think this is important.
I cant believe, that blizzard cant understand that without SC2 pro-scene in Korea, this game will never make it as a serious e-sport.
And what will happen to all these progamers, who quit bw to go and play SC2 if the negotiations fail?
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On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
Wrong event? Mike Morhaime wasn't even there. Blizzard's lawyers were though
that event is for the convention that went on today :O
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Just beating the dead dog, but..
Assuming this account was true, i believe Blizz representative (or Mike M. in this case) was behaving unacceptably.. Now i would understand if they do not agree with our (Asian) culture of respecting elders.. But if they are in Korea discussing their business that take place on Korean soil, they damn well should respect n follow that culture no matter how much they disagree with it, especially when said elderly person holds significant political power.
Waiting on more news regarding the matter, and clarification/proofs of these events as well.
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Don't need to be a political genius to know Mike screwed up big time there. I hope this is just rumour/hearsay or this is going down pretty badly.
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GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard.
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On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard.
Although I absolutely love(d) Magic the Gathering, I've not even heard of such a Pro Tour. That in itself would be a troubling sign for a traveling GSL, haha.
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On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard.
plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done.
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On October 07 2010 15:54 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique. this isn't even a matter of blizzard vs. activision anymore its degenerating into a hate or lubb korea's culture lol while i agree that there are cons to the system of elder respect in korean culture (placing fairly substantial divisions between grades in schools and society) it does teach all children, youth and adults a degree of respect for their elders. its convenient for the more aged folk who cannot do work for themselves as well as they used to be able to as they can ask for assistance from younger folk all around and can expect some assistance very quickly. and hell, everybody goes through it; don't think that that minister didn't have to do the same for all his elders while his elders "freeloaded" off of him as well. i really wouldn't use that word btw lots of people take it really seriously T_T and EVERYBODY who wants to have any success talking to foreign cultures need to learn at least a very basic degree of the other culture, or at least use common sense and try to be more careful with their words until they find a zone of comfort between them. as a part time translator and dude who's learned a lot of languages, pulling a mm is not smart at all. don't try this at school kids. lern 2 cultural tolerance plz
Note that I'm not defending Mike Morhaime's approach, but it shouldn't warrant such a cheap suppression technique in response. No one should flaunt their "moral highground" in such a manner, it makes cooperation extremely difficult. Same thing goes for the "do you know anything about [insert whatever you want]?" when they have nothing better to say.
This isn't about disrespecting a society as a whole, but pointing out what I perceive as a specific shortcoming that simply is a lack of development, and that I'm certain will be overcome in time as it has in most other top notch countries that scores high in researches about quality of life. My criticism was limitied to that, and still is.
I'll let this be my last words on the matter, as my intention was merely to point out what I perceive as a pretty big hinder to the whole e-sports negotiation, not to cause the thread to go into derail-mode.
I also agree that the use of the word "freeloading" was misplaced, and for that I am sorry.
edit: typos
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This sounds more like propaganda than fact at the moment. It seems like they are trying to get the korean public mad at Blizzard. Since there is no direct proof its just a supposed first party account.
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Finland588 Posts
Doesnt make any sense. Has to be taken out of context, exaggerated or flat out wrong. Mike Morhaime behaving like that? I doubt that he is that stupid. Even an infant knows how Asians feel about respect and authority...
Also, what does the whole IP thing with BW have to do with GSL? Why would GSL have to leave? Anyone care to explain?
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United States238 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:19 lostshard wrote:
This sounds more like propaganda than fact at the moment. It seems like they are trying to get the korean public mad at Blizzard. Since there is no direct proof its just a supposed first party account.
With (mostly young) Korean people's general distrust of the government (then again, what nation's populace always trust their government?), they won't become mad at Blizzard just because of this particular news. Generally, netizens don't look favorably upon KeSPA now. Used to have lot more pro-KeSPA netizens few months ago.
Also, what does the whole IP thing with BW have to do with GSL? Why would GSL have to leave? Anyone care to explain?
If this whole debacle falls in favor of KeSPA, all IP of secondary products such as e-sports shows, will not belong to the original creator (in this case, Blizzard). As a result, KeSPA can have free reign over SC 2 tournaments of their own, as well as broadcasts as they see fit without worrying about Blizzard or Gretech.
If that happens, we all know Gretech is going to really die this time.
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Huh?
Maybe the translation is exaggerated (???) or something but do people really think the president of a company would say anything like "Korea isn't following international rules, huh!" and "What are you gonna do about people not respecting intellectual property rights!!!" to, well just anyone in general? That's just, so disrespectful and unprofessional that it's completely unbelievable.
To top that off, the Vice Minister of Korean Department of Culture badmouthing back? That kind of shit gets people fired, justified or not. It's not the way officials should act.
The first thing that comes to mind after reading the original post is to question the validity of the source, because the situation sounds completely ridiculous. I'm interested in more sources and clarification.
I am seriously confused.
On October 07 2010 16:19 lostshard wrote:
This sounds more like propaganda than fact at the moment. It seems like they are trying to get the korean public mad at Blizzard. Since there is no direct proof its just a supposed first party account.
I agree, the way SuperDanielMan said the Media was treating NaDa, it all seems like a bunch of propaganda to get the Korean public against Blizzard. Apparently there's articles claiming hes greedy and painting him in a bad light as some sort of traitor with no pride.
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The ridiculously silly lines alone are enough for me to come to the conclusion that that is probably not what they actually said.
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United States33128 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:42 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. it's like the equivalent of the landlord being rude to vito corleone in the godfather II... you don't talk in that tone to that kind of person unless you want a beat down bad More of a cultural difference than anything but i think what mike morhaime said was pretty damn rude/crude whatever language or culture you put it in... you don't start off a conversation by proclaiming your heavily and currently contested opinion as fact, in a rude tone and manner, to a foreign politician
Are you kidding? The vice minister's behavior (if this account is accurate) is pretty much a perfect description of the stereotypical corrupt, pompous authority figure in Korea
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I tried to imagine the scene depicted in the article and I laughed out loud. I don't know how corporation-government talk usually happen but the whole story is a little far fetched for my common sense.
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51374 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:11 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. Although I absolutely love(d) Magic the Gathering, I've not even heard of such a Pro Tour. That in itself would be a troubling sign for a traveling GSL, haha.
Boy where have I heard this happen before then failing?
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On October 07 2010 16:26 xBillehx wrote:I agree, the way SuperDanielMan said the Media was treating NaDa, it all seems like a bunch of propaganda to get the Korean public against Blizzard. Apparently there's articles claiming hes greedy and painting him in a bad light as some sort of traitor with no pride.
Wow did this really happen?
That's a damn serious accusation to make, but I could see why they would be pissed about that.
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United States238 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:33 Lightwip wrote:
Wow did this really happen?
That's a damn serious accusation to make, but I could see why they would be pissed about that.
Yes, edaily article specifically said NaDa was a "former glorious progamer leaving" as a "bounty hunter", because he is "very greedy".
However, edaily is well known anti-SC2/Gretech/Blizzard group, especially a certain reporter... so. Especially so considering all other news outlets just went "NaDa switching to SC2!"
Yes, netizens had a field-time with that article.
"Okay, so NaDa is very greedy. So why is he switching to SC2 where he could possibly not win any prize money, when he could just stay being an SC1 progamer and continue earning guaranteed $ that is higher than GSL first place payout?"
:p
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"Okay, so NaDa is very greedy. So why is he switching to SC2 where he could possibly not win any prize money, when he could just stay being an SC1 progamer and continue earning guaranteed $ that is higher than GSL first place payout?"
Wasn't Nada's response: Starcraft I is boring. Starcraft II is exciting.
And dam, this is the POWER of the media. Look at all these post reacting like waving candy in front of a baby.
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United States238 Posts
Yea, exactly, netizens knew what was really up, so they were going "lol edaily" more or less with that comment.
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On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done.
Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread.
As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea.
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Siding with Korea and Kespa on this one (never thought I'd type THOSE words), though honestly, the whole bit about, "I'm the Minister, and you're just a corporate president, respect me!" was laughable. I hold zero respect for elected officials based solely on their titles.
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They are both retarded.
Both guys are arrogant in their statement.
I side with noone.
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On October 07 2010 16:16 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:54 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique. this isn't even a matter of blizzard vs. activision anymore its degenerating into a hate or lubb korea's culture lol while i agree that there are cons to the system of elder respect in korean culture (placing fairly substantial divisions between grades in schools and society) it does teach all children, youth and adults a degree of respect for their elders. its convenient for the more aged folk who cannot do work for themselves as well as they used to be able to as they can ask for assistance from younger folk all around and can expect some assistance very quickly. and hell, everybody goes through it; don't think that that minister didn't have to do the same for all his elders while his elders "freeloaded" off of him as well. i really wouldn't use that word btw lots of people take it really seriously T_T and EVERYBODY who wants to have any success talking to foreign cultures need to learn at least a very basic degree of the other culture, or at least use common sense and try to be more careful with their words until they find a zone of comfort between them. as a part time translator and dude who's learned a lot of languages, pulling a mm is not smart at all. don't try this at school kids. lern 2 cultural tolerance plz Note that I'm not defending Mike Morhaime's approach, but it shouldn't warrant such a cheap suppression technique in response. No one should flaunt their "moral highground" in such a manner, it makes cooperation extremely difficult. Same thing goes for the "do you know anything about [insert whatever you want]?" when they have nothing better to say. This isn't about disrespecting a society as a whole, but pointing out what I perceive as a specific shortcoming that simply is a lack of development, and that I'm certain will be overcome in time as it has in most other top notch countries that scores high in researches about quality of life. My criticism was limitied to that, and still is. I'll let this be my last words on the matter, as my intention was merely to point out what I perceive as a pretty big hinder to the whole e-sports negotiation, not to cause the thread to go into derail-mode. I also agree that the use of the word "freeloading" was misplaced, and for that I am sorry. edit: typos
The problem is, even if you're right about this (and I believe you are), you'd have to be incredibly stupid to do what Morhaime supposedly did. Even if you completely disagreed with their cultural beliefs, you would still have to show some respect if you want to do decent business there. Obviously there's a limit to this, but unless you're so morally repulsed that you're not even willing to do business with them in the first place, there's no reason not to suck it up. In this case it would be extremely laughable, because he apparently wasn't even showing common human decency, let alone any kind of respect for elders or authority.
But yeah, why bother making a philosophical point over a story that is likely exaggerated at best?
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I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Also, I can't believe you're all jumping at the fact that Mike Morhaime SUPPOSEDLY 'disrespected' the Koreans. Who cares if they're older, when someone from one culture argues with a person from another, you can't use "omg that's disrespectful in only one of their cultures" as an excuse.
Also, as a Korean, I know for a fact that Koreans are racist. Yes, I'm talking about the Korean government here.
P.S. I can't see how Mike Morhaime is even being rude in what he said, sounds like a legitimate question to me. Besides, this is all just hearsay.
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It could be a mistranslation on MM's part.
hope he didn't hire a secret agent...
maybe it went like this:
MM: "I'd like to discuss about IP rights"
Korean Translator: "Fuck Korea"
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This is a generally terrible thread, based entirely on rumors. The misinformation and assumption in this thread is impressive.
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On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game.
Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for.
I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game!
Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain!
I invented keyboards...... etc.
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United States33128 Posts
Christ how are any of you talking about cultural differences.
It's obvious to Koreans or anyone else that the vice-minister was being a jerk.
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On October 07 2010 17:01 Vedic wrote:
This is a generally terrible thread, based entirely on rumors. The misinformation and assumption in this thread is impressive.
agree, people shouldn't jump to conclusion based on "some guy who was there"
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On October 07 2010 17:01 Vedic wrote:
This is a generally terrible thread, based entirely on rumors. The misinformation and assumption in this thread is impressive.
Yeps, I fully agree with that. . But in any case, I guess we all will know more on the 16th, when the Proleague is supposed to start.
Taking third party hear saying and rumours as a basis for a serious discussion just doesn't work out.
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On October 07 2010 17:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for. I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game! Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain! I invented keyboards...... etc.
Typical straw man argument.
A more appropriate analogy would be.. I invent Coke. You take my recipe, make your own Coke and start selling it yourself. Is the recipe my intellectual property? Yes. Are you doing something illegal? Yes.
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On October 07 2010 16:43 Mickey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done. Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread. As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea.
Some of your post definitely counts as the idiocy in this thread. I don't understand how you can think Activision-Blizzard is supporting 3rd party tournaments or keeping ladder competitive.
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On October 07 2010 17:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for. I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game! Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain! I invented keyboards...... etc.
IP rights protect design of objects that are not purely utilitarian.
A laptop, a keyboard, adobe Photoshop are purely utilitarian. However, once you start making video tutorials of Photoshop, adobe can call you up.
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This source seems somewhat less than impartial and unbiased. I somehow doubt that Mike Morhaime opened up the discussion by insulting Korea. Has there been any confirmation of any of this?
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On October 07 2010 17:10 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for. I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game! Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain! I invented keyboards...... etc. Typical straw man argument. A more appropriate analogy would be.. I invent Coke. You take my recipe, make your own Coke and start selling it yourself. Is the recipe my intellectual property? Yes. Are you doing something illegal? Yes.
comparing software to a consumable drink? and Coke is a terrible example to begin with because they never patented the recipe (patenting only protects your product for 17 years, and the recipe immediately must be publicly disclosed with exact replicas being allowed after patent expires).
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On October 07 2010 17:10 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for. I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game! Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain! I invented keyboards...... etc. Typical straw man argument. A more appropriate analogy would be.. I invent Coke. You take my recipe, make your own Coke and start selling it yourself. Is the recipe my intellectual property? Yes. Are you doing something illegal? Yes.
No.
A better analogy is, Day[9] uses Starcraft II to create his program. Blizzard claims ownership of Day[9] Daily.
IP wise, the problem here is that Blizzard is claiming ownership of not only their game, but KeSPA/OGN/MBC's derivative work (tournament broadcast, replays, etc.)
Under the same logic, Blizzard now wants to own all maps created using the map editor, and all the replays and data created by players. There is a reason why everything has to be done via Battle.net.
Personally, that's where I call bullshit.
On the game IP, KeSPA/OGN/MBC are willing to pay a fee to use the game, but the negotiations are breaking down when it comes to the terms. KeSPA/OGN/MBC paying money to use Starcraft is reasonable. Gretech asking OGN's air time, changing broadcast schedule, or trying to squeeze MBC out of the deal is not.
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How did Blizzard expect any of this to go well? Their whole approach to this is just unbelievable and alienating everyone.
On October 07 2010 17:10 youngminii wrote:
Typical straw man argument.
A more appropriate analogy would be.. I invent Coke. You take my recipe, make your own Coke and start selling it yourself. Is the recipe my intellectual property? Yes. Are you doing something illegal? Yes.
What the fuck? How can you say someones analogy is bad and make that as a counter example. That is nothing like what KeSPA is doing at all.
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Siding with the guys who arn't trying to ruin BW...
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haha sorry, but this just doesn't sound real. there are so many stories over in korea which seem to be untrue, and i believe this is one as well.
just like nada and the IEM story, lies lies.
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United States33128 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:35 HolydaKing wrote:
haha sorry, but this just doesn't sound real. there are so many stories over in korea which seem to be untrue, and i believe this is one as well.
just like nada and the IEM story, lies lies.
except the nada story was true :o?
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On October 07 2010 17:38 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:35 HolydaKing wrote:
haha sorry, but this just doesn't sound real. there are so many stories over in korea which seem to be untrue, and i believe this is one as well.
just like nada and the IEM story, lies lies. except the nada story was true :o?
Do you mean the same one as i do? Maybe i didn't get all the info, but http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146083 is what i mean.
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I don't believe this is a fact.The content in it seems to be very exaggerated and should be opinion more than a fact. It could even be a false information from the original poster to incite the anti-Blizzard group.
I think there's a disagreement, which is normal concerning that it was only the first meeting. However, I don't believe that the tone of the discussion would be that heated, considering that they are both high officials in important offices respectively.
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On October 07 2010 16:43 Mickey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done. Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread. As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea.
i talk about esports. if we dont talk about esports even wc2 is still alive...
if GSL moves outside of Korea its done with the "real esport" cause thats the only esport. the thing in the west is just a joke "esport".
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I think blizzard needs to be made an example of to let game companies know that there are limits to their greed.
Obviously the translation is a bit inaccurate, as 2 people in those positions would not converse with each other in that manner. Hell even a QA tester at blizzard would know not to behave like that.
I do think the jist of it is semi-accurate though. Blizzard thinks their position is stronger than it actually is. They think they can kill off BW with brute wallet and bully tactics. GSL has lured some people, nada included, and to those of you saying if he was greedy he would stay as a bw pro, that simply isn't accurate.
Nada is still good at bw, but he is not the dominating force, SC2 has weaker competition, if he, as a legitimate bw pro, switches over to sc2, he has a chance at 85k usd a month. That can be pretty lucrative next year.
This was really my major concern with the pros switching over though. BW made them celebrities, it made them money, and it doesn't sit right with me how easily some of the more iconic pros just sorta push bw aside and essentially "sell out" for a chance at the GSL prize purse.
Though a lot of people these days don't really understand loyalty and gratitude.
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United States33128 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:43 Veldril wrote:
I don't believe this is a fact.The content in it seems to be very exaggerated and should be opinion more than a fact. It could even be a false information from the original poster to incite the anti-Blizzard group.
I think there's a disagreement, which is normal concerning that it was only the first meeting. However, I don't believe that the tone of the discussion would be that heated, considering that they are both high officials in important offices respectively.
The post is legit, but you can question the original blogger all you want.
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Killing BW while moving SC2 out of Korea? Great way to kill E-sports, Blizzard. -__-
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On October 07 2010 17:51 Holgerius wrote:
Killing BW while moving SC2 out of Korea? Great way to kill E-sports, Blizzard. -__-
Haha yea.
I think people who think that esports is even remotely stable outside of korea, really don't have a wealth of knowledge on the whole scene.
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The meeting between the emperor of japan and Mike Morhaime didn't go any better, in fact worse, as they ended up in a fist fight. While I don't have any source you can take anything you find on the Internet to be absolutely true so please discuss this news item for the months to come.
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On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
Blizzard is nobody, US government won't care enough about Blizzard to lose an ally like Korea.
Korea is so crucial in international relations for US, against North Korea, China, etc.
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On October 07 2010 16:43 Mickey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done. Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread. As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea.
I take it you mean you(and some others) will continue playing the game, so it lives on?. This obviously has nothing to do with E-Sports. I would like to just mention again that outside of Korea, the way things are now theres no game that's being successful as an E-Sport. Hell, SC2 right now is making WC3 look balanced.
And i agree with robertdinh's point regarding gratitide and loyalty. I dont know about the west, but in my culture, what Nada did could (not saying that i personally am against him moving to SC2) be viewed as a bad thing, depending on how involved the concerned party are with Nada. The team that made it possible for him to become what he is, the sport that made him the iconic figure. Now theres money and fame to be had elsewhere, and he just ditched them and left.. It is understandable from Nada's view point, but i also can understand where the other party is coming from.
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if i where Korea i would make a law that would allow in Korea games as bw to be played and televized whithout blizzard ( as it was until now) , how can blizzard whant ownership of every replay ......?
p.s the maps from sc2 are so crap , and i think until blizzard will let some profesionals make some maps we whont discover sc2
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On October 07 2010 18:23 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:43 Mickey wrote:On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done. Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread. As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea. I take it you mean you(and some others) will continue playing the game, so it lives on?. This obviously has nothing to do with E-Sports. I would like to just mention again that outside of Korea, the way things are now theres no game that's being successful as an E-Sport. Hell, SC2 right now is making WC3 look balanced. And i agree with robertdinh's point regarding gratitide and loyalty. I dont know about the west, but in my culture, what Nada did could (not saying that i personally am against him moving to SC2) be viewed as a bad thing, depending on how involved the concerned party are with Nada. The team that made it possible for him to become what he is, the sport that made him the iconic figure. Now theres money and fame to be had elsewhere, and he just ditched them and left.. It is understandable from Nada's view point, but i also can understand where the other party is coming from.
So what you say is that i NEED to continue doing something i don't like just to be loyal to someone that made a ton of money form me doing it?!
I disagree on so many levels that i just don't want to start explaining them.
And all that fuzz about IP rights is just to make a precedent (i am not sure if this is the right term) so computer games can actually become something more than e-sport and this is a real sport. For this to happen you need to have worldwide authority and not just Korean. Yes SC:BW was big only in Korea but is that all you want? Don't everyone here want to be able to watch SC2 (or any other game you like) on your local TV? If we have worldwide authority at least we can hope for that.
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This might be unrelated to the OP, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it: shouldn't there be map tests now if proleague is going to start anytime soon?
Also, I feel that it is ridicules that the maker of the game can control all of the pro scene. This makes any stable professional gaming impossible because the maker of the game can just shut everything down when they feel like promoting a new game. Imagin if Blizzard had done this when WC II was released: there had been no e-sports now. We'll be stuck with "commercial" games that are uncomplicated, easy to play and easy to sell.
This has probably been said a million times already though.
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On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
Esport is not important enough to have any incidence whatsoever on the US - SK relationship. It's a very little business in terms of country to country relationship.
The tone of this blog entry also makes me very very suspicious, doesn't sound very professional, and I don't think that's the way a minister would discuss with a company CEO. Maybe I'm mistaking.
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On October 07 2010 17:50 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:43 Veldril wrote:
I don't believe this is a fact.The content in it seems to be very exaggerated and should be opinion more than a fact. It could even be a false information from the original poster to incite the anti-Blizzard group.
I think there's a disagreement, which is normal concerning that it was only the first meeting. However, I don't believe that the tone of the discussion would be that heated, considering that they are both high officials in important offices respectively. The post is legit, but you can question the original blogger all you want.
seems most people in this thread did not do that
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It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community.
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On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community.
Life is a bit more complicated than that, fortunately :-)
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Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
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On October 07 2010 18:42 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:50 Waxangel wrote:On October 07 2010 17:43 Veldril wrote:
I don't believe this is a fact.The content in it seems to be very exaggerated and should be opinion more than a fact. It could even be a false information from the original poster to incite the anti-Blizzard group.
I think there's a disagreement, which is normal concerning that it was only the first meeting. However, I don't believe that the tone of the discussion would be that heated, considering that they are both high officials in important offices respectively. The post is legit, but you can question the original blogger all you want. seems most people in this thread did not do that
Oh I question it all right. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit. I have followed Blizzard for over 15 years and I know that Mike Morhaime sounds nothing like that. So it's heavily paraphrased if not completely made up.
Also "eyewitness" means "I can't backup any of my outrageous claims at all". It would be interesting to know why people trust this article so much, it can't be how it's written at least.
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On October 07 2010 17:10 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On October 07 2010 16:51 youngminii wrote:
I don't understand, Blizzard made the game, they deserve anything and everything to do with the game. Idk about that bro. It would suck major balls if the inventor got to own everything the invention was used for. I invented the laptop! You have to pay me for using it to play the game! Well I invented email, so you have to pay me for using email to complain! I invented keyboards...... etc. Typical straw man argument. A more appropriate analogy would be.. I invent Coke. You take my recipe, make your own Coke and start selling it yourself. Is the recipe my intellectual property? Yes. Are you doing something illegal? Yes.
Then what's the recipe for Broodwar, the codes or game design?
Did KeSPA decode or change any of these? No!
Did KeSPA sell their own Broodwar? No!
What KeSPA did is organizing an Coke drinking contest, which has nothing to do with CocaCola company.
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On October 07 2010 18:50 Ryo wrote:
Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
What makes you think that Korean gov cares at all about Starcraft.
If you ask me, I don't think they do, and I would be extremely cautious with this article. I may be wrong, but I don't see a minister talking that way to anybody, and I don't really find logical that Korean gov start to fight a foreign corporation because of some BW vs SC2 issue. Kespa is sooooo small. They are not general motors, people should realize that.
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On October 07 2010 18:46 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community. Life is a bit more complicated than that, fortunately :-)
Not really. Not if you follow proper copyright laws. This KeSPA vs Blizzard would never be an issue in North America or Europe and I don't see Blizzard losing even if it went to a Korean court.
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On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community.
It depends on what rights they have reserved for themselves even AFTER receiving money for selling the game. For many other merchandise, after you have paid for the goods, you gain full possession over it. In the case of SC2, yes they have reserved many such rights for themselves. But i also reserve the right to express my thoughts (criticism) on the matter.
Also you may want to bring something into discussions rather that Ctrl C Ctrl V an existing point from an earlier post.
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On October 07 2010 18:37 kinray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:23 ffreakk wrote:On October 07 2010 16:43 Mickey wrote:On October 07 2010 16:15 rasers wrote:On October 07 2010 16:09 Scorch wrote:
GSL moving abroad could potentially be awesome. Imagine if it was like the Pro Tour in Magic The Gathering, visiting large cities worldwide, with top/qualified players having their travel costs paid by Blizzard. plz dont kid urself... GSL moving outside of Korea means SCII is done. Yes, because you decide what and what does not flourish correct? SC2 is not going to die if a Korean scene isn't stabilized. That's the most idiotic statement I've read so far in this thread. As an avid SC2 player like most on this forum, the foreign scene alone is enough to hold my interests. As long as Activision-Blizzard keep supporting the game and diverting resources to keeping the ladder competitive/supporting 3rd party tournaments. I'll keep playing SC2 regardless if there's a scene in Korea. I take it you mean you(and some others) will continue playing the game, so it lives on?. This obviously has nothing to do with E-Sports. I would like to just mention again that outside of Korea, the way things are now theres no game that's being successful as an E-Sport. Hell, SC2 right now is making WC3 look balanced. And i agree with robertdinh's point regarding gratitide and loyalty. I dont know about the west, but in my culture, what Nada did could (not saying that i personally am against him moving to SC2) be viewed as a bad thing, depending on how involved the concerned party are with Nada. The team that made it possible for him to become what he is, the sport that made him the iconic figure. Now theres money and fame to be had elsewhere, and he just ditched them and left.. It is understandable from Nada's view point, but i also can understand where the other party is coming from. So what you say is that i NEED to continue doing something i don't like just to be loyal to someone that made a ton of money form me doing it?! I disagree on so many levels that i just don't want to start explaining them. And all that fuzz about IP rights is just to make a precedent (i am not sure if this is the right term) so computer games can actually become something more than e-sport and this is a real sport. For this to happen you need to have worldwide authority and not just Korean. Yes SC:BW was big only in Korea but is that all you want? Don't everyone here want to be able to watch SC2 (or any other game you like) on your local TV? If we have worldwide authority at least we can hope for that.
Worldwide authority?You are kidding, right?
This won't happen within at least 100 years.
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I don't understand one thing.
Those quotes don't sound like anything MM has, or ever would say...
I seriously doubt he would just march in there and start being disrespectful to the minister of Korea...
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On October 07 2010 18:54 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community. It depends on what rights they have reserved for themselves even AFTER receiving money for selling the game. For many other merchandise, after you have paid for the goods, you gain full possession over it. In the case of SC2, yes they have reserved many such rights for themselves. But i also reserve the right to express my thoughts (criticism) on the matter. Also you may want to bring something into discussions rather that Ctrl C Ctrl V an existing point from an earlier post.
All Blizzard's art assets, sounds, etc are copyrighted, that means you can't broadcast it without permission.
If you don't think this discussion contributes anything to you I suggest you don't participate, you don't get to dictate it with snarky comments.
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On October 07 2010 18:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:50 Ryo wrote:
Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
What makes you think that Korean gov cares at all about Starcraft.If you ask me, I don't think they do, and I would be extremely cautious with this article. I may be wrong, but I don't see a minister talking that way to anybody, and I don't really find logical that Korean gov start to fight a foreign corporation because of some BW vs SC2 issue. Kespa is sooooo small. They are not general motors, people should realize that.
Yet another person who doesn't know how Kespa started and exactly what it represents.
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this is getting interesting... hope blizzard will fail with this policy
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On October 07 2010 18:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:50 Ryo wrote:
Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
What makes you think that Korean gov cares at all about Starcraft. If you ask me, I don't think they do, and I would be extremely cautious with this article. I may be wrong, but I don't see a minister talking that way to anybody, and I don't really find logical that Korean gov start to fight a foreign corporation because of some BW vs SC2 issue. Kespa is sooooo small. They are not general motors, people should realize that.
GM is to US.
If BW pro-scene fails, thousands of people in Korea will lose their job.
For a small country, it is a big problem.
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I believe that the game they were negotiating about was BW, not SC2 like many people here discussed.
The government pretty much let Blizzard and Gretech do whatever they want with SC2, but Blizzard decided to fuck up BW to have some more SC2 sales, and it doesn't go well with the Korean government, because it affects the whole industry (job loss, infrastructure loss, control loss...) and public opinion.
Blizzard has the option of taking the annual money and leave BW alone, they should concede now or both BW and SC2 are gonna die.
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And there I was, thinking the start of WWIII is going to be between China and US.
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On October 07 2010 19:08 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 07 2010 18:50 Ryo wrote:
Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
What makes you think that Korean gov cares at all about Starcraft. If you ask me, I don't think they do, and I would be extremely cautious with this article. I may be wrong, but I don't see a minister talking that way to anybody, and I don't really find logical that Korean gov start to fight a foreign corporation because of some BW vs SC2 issue. Kespa is sooooo small. They are not general motors, people should realize that. GM is to US. If BW pro-scene fails, thousands of people in Korea will lose their job. For a small country, it is a big problem.
Do you think that if BW dies it really is a big deal at the level of the country?
It seems a bit unlogical. Player would go to SC2, TV channel would just program SC2 or something else. Commentators would move onto other games and sponsors would... sponsor something else!
I don't see how that can be a huge thing for a government honestly.
Now, I won't pretend I know anything about the matter, I'm just trying to be logical. Korea is a very advanced and powerful economy, and SC is really a small niche.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:07 seRapH wrote:gogo korea! stuff gsl overseas please! and broodwar will liiiiive! + Show Spoiler +ok fine gsl will die miserably if it goes overseas. but AT LEAST BW WILL LIIIVE
This.
I agree with many people that Blizzard are going too far. I think they're getting into deeper water than they may want. But at the same time, I reeeally don't think that I trust the way this article is written. There is very little detail, and even less trustworthy detail.
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Blizzard's in the wrong here imo. If I understand things correctly, KeSPA offered to pay for the right to broadcast BW. Blizzard didn't take it, so clearly, they want something more than just money, which is going overboard imo because they didn't care about any of this at all before sc2.
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blizzard should really just fuck off. e-sports is a Korean discovery.
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I have no idea what's going on, except that blizzard don't want sc2 to be included in kespa (or something along those line). could anyone be kind enough to link me to some threads or news posts to read about this entire conundrum?
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On October 07 2010 19:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 19:08 hydraden wrote:On October 07 2010 18:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 07 2010 18:50 Ryo wrote:
Clearly Blizzard has no idea how important esports is to the Korean government. Many big foreign corporations make the same mistake in other industries.
You can't just tell a government-backed organisation in another country that you want control over their entire operations and not expect the local government to tell you to back off.
What makes you think that Korean gov cares at all about Starcraft. If you ask me, I don't think they do, and I would be extremely cautious with this article. I may be wrong, but I don't see a minister talking that way to anybody, and I don't really find logical that Korean gov start to fight a foreign corporation because of some BW vs SC2 issue. Kespa is sooooo small. They are not general motors, people should realize that. GM is to US. If BW pro-scene fails, thousands of people in Korea will lose their job. For a small country, it is a big problem. Do you think that if BW dies it really is a big deal at the level of the country? It seems a bit unlogical. Player would go to SC2, TV channel would just program SC2 or something else. Commentators would move onto other games and sponsors would... sponsor something else! I don't see how that can be a huge thing for a government honestly. Now, I won't pretend I know anything about the matter, I'm just trying to be logical. Korea is a very advanced and powerful economy, and SC is really a small niche.
What Blizzard now trying to do is destroy old BW industry, then build a new SC2 industry.
Even if SC2 industry will be as successful as former BW industry, it will still not be a smooth transition, most people in BW pro scene will still lose job. Not every player, commentator, advertiser, and sponsors will switch, especially when Blizzard do not want pro teams. The whole industry will fall, this is not an ideal situation for Government.
What government want is a smooth transition from BW to SC2, which could happen if Blizzard let current proteams build their own SC2 division, then start SC2 proleague. Clearly, this is not an option of Blizzard.
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On October 07 2010 19:47 limonovich wrote:
I have no idea what's going on, except that blizzard don't want sc2 to be included in kespa (or something along those line). could anyone be kind enough to link me to some threads or news posts to read about this entire conundrum?
Kespa doesnt even want SC2. The problem here is BW. Kespa want to continue with BW while Blizzard/Gretech is forcing BW to die.
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On October 07 2010 19:01 Seam wrote:
I don't understand one thing.
Those quotes don't sound like anything MM has, or ever would say...
I seriously doubt he would just march in there and start being disrespectful to the minister of Korea...
Yeah and Proleague hasn't started yet even though Kespa promised starting it by force if needed.
This shows how much Gretech has this situation under control, there is no need for anyone from Blizz to step in.
Even if Kespa plays victim to look better in the eyes of people, it still wants wants to end this now instead of ignoring it.
And who knows if it's not gaining, even wants to gain in this way.
There certainly will be bigger interest in relaunched PL. More viewers means more interest from sponsors. And Kespa has more time now to negotiate with them and get better offers.
I don't think Korean proscene is as fragile as many people seem to think in this thread - as long as there are people following it at all, it will be getting sponsors and keep on living.
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Does this mean that blizzard/gretech will probably lose if they try to go to a korean court once kespa/ogn/mbc continue to air their BW leagues? Because if so, this is a great victory for e-Sports.
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I doubt they will get there. It has been already said Gretech wants its IP rights being recognized, not money. OGN already made agreements with Gretech, Kespa offers a fee for more than a month now?
What's left is MBC. Is it really worth to drag it to the court because of just MBC?
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On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community.
I distincly remember buying SC:BW.
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Is this thread going anywhere? Hasn't this been discussed (or "discussed") more than once already?
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On October 07 2010 20:22 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:43 Eury wrote:
It's their game that they can do whatever they want with. If you don't like it I suggest you make your own game and you can do whatever you like with that, even giving it away to the community. I distincly remember buying SC:BW.
You bought a licence to play the game. You don't own the rights to the game/brand/code.
EDIT: grammar mistake licence vs license :@
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"Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
!!!
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Do not mess with the korean minister of culture !!!!!!! Looks like kespa will have bw in their hands for a long time .
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So GSL maybe gets banned from korea? That would be the end of sc2 in korea. Anyways i just hope Bw continues, could be sad day for sc2 but oh well.
Goodluck at the court! 
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Yeah blizzard really deserves control of how and when starcraft should be broadcasted after abandoning the game entirely for about 6 years while its competitive scene flourished rofl.. maybe if they had organized tournaments and helped the game progress in any of the ways kespa did i would have a little more respect for their decisions regarding the game now.
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On October 07 2010 16:16 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:54 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique. this isn't even a matter of blizzard vs. activision anymore its degenerating into a hate or lubb korea's culture lol while i agree that there are cons to the system of elder respect in korean culture (placing fairly substantial divisions between grades in schools and society) it does teach all children, youth and adults a degree of respect for their elders. its convenient for the more aged folk who cannot do work for themselves as well as they used to be able to as they can ask for assistance from younger folk all around and can expect some assistance very quickly. and hell, everybody goes through it; don't think that that minister didn't have to do the same for all his elders while his elders "freeloaded" off of him as well. i really wouldn't use that word btw lots of people take it really seriously T_T and EVERYBODY who wants to have any success talking to foreign cultures need to learn at least a very basic degree of the other culture, or at least use common sense and try to be more careful with their words until they find a zone of comfort between them. as a part time translator and dude who's learned a lot of languages, pulling a mm is not smart at all. don't try this at school kids. lern 2 cultural tolerance plz Note that I'm not defending Mike Morhaime's approach, but it shouldn't warrant such a cheap suppression technique in response. No one should flaunt their "moral highground" in such a manner, it makes cooperation extremely difficult. Same thing goes for the "do you know anything about [insert whatever you want]?" when they have nothing better to say. This isn't about disrespecting a society as a whole, but pointing out what I perceive as a specific shortcoming that simply is a lack of development, and that I'm certain will be overcome in time as it has in most other top notch countries that scores high in researches about quality of life. My criticism was limitied to that, and still is. I'll let this be my last words on the matter, as my intention was merely to point out what I perceive as a pretty big hinder to the whole e-sports negotiation, not to cause the thread to go into derail-mode. I also agree that the use of the word "freeloading" was misplaced, and for that I am sorry. edit: typos
Its not a moral highground, in any culture you got alot of nerve to be exclaiming to a government minister about your country's IP policy when all you do is make video games.
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BW is a mixture of many contemporary and older games/art trends of its time, and by now is so morally old that the concepts from it are in every RTS game. Obviously Korea could simply switch to a very similar fan-made game, if they must, to avoid any problems with Blizzard. It's not Blizzard's efforts to make a good game, which helped create the progaming scene. Nope, they did nothing much about that; they should be grateful that their product gets so popular from this activity.
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Gotta love that Korean beauracracy...
Why should they care about being nice to random American businessmen. It's not like the entire country's economy depends on trade with the US or anything...
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I'm 50% convinced this is bullshit.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 07 2010 21:19 Luddite wrote:
Gotta love that Korean beauracracy...
Why should they care about being nice to random American businessmen. It's not like the entire country's economy depends on trade with the US or anything...
shut up charlie
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Imagine if KeSPA had just been allowed to proceed as normal with SC2, and what the situation would be now. There would likely already be an OSL2 or MSL2, and a proleague planned and all of this broadcast on TV. Teams would have SC2 divisions so players would be able to remain employed. The only negative would possibly be foreign players finding it hard to get into the scene, although an agreement could have been worked out... maybe even a team specifically for them (Gretech sponsored?). Blizzard would no doubt sell more copies in korea because of this and the publicity would be much better and easier than their extreme spending on bombing koreans with advertisements.
See how much better that situation is? But look what we got instead. I dunno who is making these eSports related decisions for Blizzard but they seem to not be thinking long term at all. Or even short term for that matter.
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MM is such a meek little nerd, I really couldn't see him using this kind of tone with anyone, much less a politician. Something like this would have to come from one heck of a reliable source to be believable.
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Go Korean Gov !
My view of IP rights is the same as their. They are doing it right way: either Blizzard respect their regulations and views and just sell games and let other organize leagues etc. or it goes somewhere else to do their greedy job.
Imagine if KeSPA had just been allowed to proceed as normal with SC2, and what the situation would be now. There would likely already be an OSL2 or MSL2, and a proleague planned and all of this broadcast on TV.
Yes and that would be the case in any normal pro sport environment. Current situation is a joke and it's not possible for true esport to emerge when one company wants all the cards.
It would be better for everybody if IP right situations changes to be better for users and less lucrative for companies but of course companies lobby for nonsense law like we have today. It seems in Korea they have different view on the matter and for that I am very happy
(btw we would have private, better servers/ladders like ICCUP etc. for sc2 too if it wasn't for stupid Blizzard policy; who knows maybe we would have private leagues too if organizers of those were allowed to actually profit from organizing...)
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Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is.
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On October 07 2010 21:05 Rikstah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:16 Demand2k wrote:On October 07 2010 15:54 Navi wrote:On October 07 2010 15:42 Demand2k wrote:On October 07 2010 15:37 LuciferSC wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Korea's core problem? How about learning to respect other cultures and not letting your lips loose without knowing what you're talking about. I have no respect for the fact that just *being older than someone* matters a fig in every single aspect of a society. It's freeloading, and perhaps someone competent could have filled named minister's shoes instead of some stuck-up fool who pulls a childish suppression technique. this isn't even a matter of blizzard vs. activision anymore its degenerating into a hate or lubb korea's culture lol while i agree that there are cons to the system of elder respect in korean culture (placing fairly substantial divisions between grades in schools and society) it does teach all children, youth and adults a degree of respect for their elders. its convenient for the more aged folk who cannot do work for themselves as well as they used to be able to as they can ask for assistance from younger folk all around and can expect some assistance very quickly. and hell, everybody goes through it; don't think that that minister didn't have to do the same for all his elders while his elders "freeloaded" off of him as well. i really wouldn't use that word btw lots of people take it really seriously T_T and EVERYBODY who wants to have any success talking to foreign cultures need to learn at least a very basic degree of the other culture, or at least use common sense and try to be more careful with their words until they find a zone of comfort between them. as a part time translator and dude who's learned a lot of languages, pulling a mm is not smart at all. don't try this at school kids. lern 2 cultural tolerance plz Note that I'm not defending Mike Morhaime's approach, but it shouldn't warrant such a cheap suppression technique in response. No one should flaunt their "moral highground" in such a manner, it makes cooperation extremely difficult. Same thing goes for the "do you know anything about [insert whatever you want]?" when they have nothing better to say. This isn't about disrespecting a society as a whole, but pointing out what I perceive as a specific shortcoming that simply is a lack of development, and that I'm certain will be overcome in time as it has in most other top notch countries that scores high in researches about quality of life. My criticism was limitied to that, and still is. I'll let this be my last words on the matter, as my intention was merely to point out what I perceive as a pretty big hinder to the whole e-sports negotiation, not to cause the thread to go into derail-mode. I also agree that the use of the word "freeloading" was misplaced, and for that I am sorry. edit: typos Its not a moral highground, in any culture you got alot of nerve to be exclaiming to a government minister about your country's IP policy when all you do is make video games.
While that may be, I would think that the "all you do is make video games" holds a little ground in Korea considering their circumstances regarding video games.
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Doesn't help that kespa seems to want SC2 to die in response. Pisses me off that no attempt at COEXISTING is being made here, as far as i can tell.
E-sports will be FAR better off if neither BW nor SC2 dies off.
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IP rights have so many grey areas, where corporations can go bandit on people. Film/game/music corporations basically have monopolies on their products, and the resulting situation is always monopoly vs. customer.
I think that a company claiming that recordings of people playing their game belong to it is wrong. Just like Adidas trying to destroy UEFA and take over the Championships because players are using Adidas footballs/shoes. Or the architect who planned the stadium demanding money for showing the stadium on TV. It's just not right, the game is just a tool - everyone who plays it has bought it legally, that's that. What we want to watch on TV is the players and their skill foremost.
In short, it should not be possible or permissible under law for companies to claim ownerships of recordings of people using their product. If this can happen, then why can't Bosch suddenly demand that everyone pay them extra $$ for living in a house built with Bosch tools.
I think this is really wrong, it destroys creativity and freedom and should simply not be possible in any legal system. Otherwise we are creating a world where more and more companies are simply weaseling money from people using obscure and annoying technological / legal solutions instead of just selling their products on clear terms.
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On October 07 2010 21:26 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 21:19 Luddite wrote:
Gotta love that Korean beauracracy...
Why should they care about being nice to random American businessmen. It's not like the entire country's economy depends on trade with the US or anything... shut up charlie
you know I'm right. This is like some drunk ajjossi insisting that everyone defer to him.
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On October 07 2010 15:23 snowdrift wrote:
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all.
So in order not to have a monopoly kespa should have a monopoly?
Did you really think that over?
Especially considering that kespa is repeatedly lying through their teeth at every opportunity.
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On October 07 2010 22:41 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:23 snowdrift wrote:
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all. So in order not to have a monopoly kespa should have a monopoly? Did you really think that over? Especially considering that kespa is repeatedly lying through their teeth at every opportunity.
What monopoly does Kespa have?
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On October 07 2010 15:59 d3_crescentia wrote:
Isn't this article fundamentally hearsay? I'd take anything from an "eyewitness account" with a grain of salt, no matter who the source was.
It is, by all accounts and measures, hearsay.
Is the person claimed as the source known? I mean, do we know who the actual source is?
Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time taking something that is claimed to be dug up from caches as reliable. It's also pretty "convenient" the original post was deleted almost instantly and thereby effectively prohibiting any type of source control. For all we know, the post could have been deleted because it was a load of bull.
But oh well, haters gonna hate.
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On October 07 2010 22:49 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:41 lololol wrote:On October 07 2010 15:23 snowdrift wrote:
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all. So in order not to have a monopoly kespa should have a monopoly? Did you really think that over? Especially considering that kespa is repeatedly lying through their teeth at every opportunity. What monopoly does Kespa have?
They have already boycotted gom in the past, so only kespa sanctioned events can exist and
they also sold the exclusive broadcasting rights to IEG(?), which OGN and MBC had to pay for, while OGN and MBC originally created the leagues(also Blizzard was allowing gom to run for $1).
Considering these 2 they effectively have always had a monopoly over BW in Korea.
They are also forbidding players from entering SC2 events, but claiming it is a misunderstanding in the case with Nada, since it gives them bad publicity.
For something that's supposed to be non-profit governing body with the development of e-sports in mind, they sure as hell aren't behaving as one.
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On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is.
Except for the fact that this thread is not about Kespa, it's about Blizzard vs Korean Gov, so Blizzard fans should stop the Kespa ranting from now on in this thread.
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On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is.
[Cite your source]
This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe?
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There is an incredible amount of naivete in this thread. Yeah it's about the SK gov't vs. Blizzard, but there's this little concept of lobbying/influence that needs to be considered.
Just going over the quotes though - neither side is negotiating properly, particularly with the "you're only a president of a ordinary company". Um lol. That ordinary company's IP is the reason you even have an e-sport to begin with. If SK wants to write their own games, go on right ahead.
Try to imagine e-sports without the Blizzard title games, and then realize how stupid the gov't official looks when he says this. E-sports has significant monetary impact in SK as well, so the gov't official should be well aware of this when he releases such a gaffe. Man whatever.
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On October 07 2010 22:58 mimikami wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. Except for the fact that this thread is not about Kespa, it's about Blizzard vs Korean Gov, so Blizzard fans should stop the Kespa ranting from now on in this thread.
Isn't Kespa closely linked with the government? Like the gov't helped create them and fund them? Sorry, maybe I shouldn't group them together but that was my understanding.
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On October 07 2010 23:06 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:58 mimikami wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. Except for the fact that this thread is not about Kespa, it's about Blizzard vs Korean Gov, so Blizzard fans should stop the Kespa ranting from now on in this thread. Isn't Kespa closely linked with the government? Like the gov't helped create them and fund them? Sorry, maybe I shouldn't group them together but that was my understanding.
Kespa was founded as a delegated office of culture ministry.
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On October 07 2010 22:27 Red_beard wrote:
IP rights have so many grey areas, where corporations can go bandit on people. Film/game/music corporations basically have monopolies on their products, and the resulting situation is always monopoly vs. customer.
I think that a company claiming that recordings of people playing their game belong to it is wrong. Just like Adidas trying to destroy UEFA and take over the Championships because players are using Adidas footballs/shoes. Or the architect who planned the stadium demanding money for showing the stadium on TV. It's just not right, the game is just a tool - everyone who plays it has bought it legally, that's that. What we want to watch on TV is the players and their skill foremost.
In short, it should not be possible or permissible under law for companies to claim ownerships of recordings of people using their product. If this can happen, then why can't Bosch suddenly demand that everyone pay them extra $$ for living in a house built with Bosch tools.
I think this is really wrong, it destroys creativity and freedom and should simply not be possible in any legal system. Otherwise we are creating a world where more and more companies are simply weaseling money from people using obscure and annoying technological / legal solutions instead of just selling their products on clear terms.
[x] Smart post
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On October 07 2010 21:38 infinity2k9 wrote:
Imagine if KeSPA had just been allowed to proceed as normal with SC2, and what the situation would be now. There would likely already be an OSL2 or MSL2, and a proleague planned and all of this broadcast on TV. Teams would have SC2 divisions so players would be able to remain employed. The only negative would possibly be foreign players finding it hard to get into the scene, although an agreement could have been worked out... maybe even a team specifically for them (Gretech sponsored?). Blizzard would no doubt sell more copies in korea because of this and the publicity would be much better and easier than their extreme spending on bombing koreans with advertisements.
See how much better that situation is? But look what we got instead. I dunno who is making these eSports related decisions for Blizzard but they seem to not be thinking long term at all. Or even short term for that matter.
Gretech wanted GSL SC2 to be broadcasted during OSL/MSL/Proleague television times. Kespa wanted GSL SC2 to be broadcasted during off hours like 12 AM.
there was never a "proceed as normal with SC2" due to a difference in wanting specific television times.
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So an anonymous blogger posts a ridiculous "eyewitness" account, deletes said account, and then curious TL'er finds snippets and translates it for the BW section of TL. 90% of BW section goes into kneejerk reaction and blasts Blizzard for being stupid and not knowing its place, just like every other article posted about KeSPA vs Gretech. Why don't we make a thread in BW where people can just rant and rave about how people want Blizzard to die and KeSPA to win and close it on October 16th when we'll ACTUALLY have a legit idea of whats going to happen. Threads like this are just flamebait to get people angry at Blizzard without any substantial reasoning for it. This type of stuff is just blatant "leaking" information to get people's attention, just like what Apple does every year before their stupid apple conference or whatever.
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On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe?
Well, tbh, that's the reason why commercial software is more expensive than a home edition software. It depends on the licensing I suppose. Game is cheaper because it's only license to use to product. Anything created with that product can be creator's product. It has to be reasonable though. With the map, anyone could see a 'map' cannot be owned by Blizzard so in Korea they changed the ToS, only giving Blizzard the right to use them commercially and delete/remove them from their server.
See now a replay or the games played are in the grey area. I can see it going toward Blizzard's favour since the simple cost of game does not meet the criteria for using the product directly to make money.
At the end it will be balance of
1. 'What did the buyer paid for?' including the price and intention of the parties.
2. Resonableness, has what the defendant created far off from what the Plaintiff created/intended (i.e. Custom Maps are nothing like Blizzard created/intended, replays can be argued because of the notion that the creation process/phase of the game is what Plaintiff had intended)
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5003 Posts
On October 07 2010 23:33 ZeaL. wrote:
So an anonymous blogger posts a ridiculous "eyewitness" account, deletes said account, and then curious TL'er finds snippets and translates it for the BW section of TL. 90% of BW section goes into kneejerk reaction and blasts Blizzard for being stupid and not knowing its place, just like every other article posted about KeSPA vs Gretech. Why don't we make a thread in BW where people can just rant and rave about how people want Blizzard to die and KeSPA to win and close it on October 16th when we'll ACTUALLY have a legit idea of whats going to happen. Threads like this are just flamebait to get people angry at Blizzard without any substantial reasoning for it. This type of stuff is just blatant "leaking" information to get people's attention, just like what Apple does every year before their stupid apple conference or whatever.
K, to clarify
1) Not an anonymous blogger -- the guy's a pretty famous blogger, and gets interviews with producers/operators of games quite often (he seems to be a game industry insider)
2) He deleted said account after people started linking to it and posting it everywhere
3) Not really snippets, but this is pretty much the entire post
Just saying, don't just say "oh this is just a blog post so it isn't credible". I personally find it more credible than a lot of the stuff that gets posted on Fomos 
Also, to people who says "It doesnt sound like MM", 1) it could easily be a paraphrase, 2) It's a English -> Korean -> Guy overhearing/remembering it -> Korean -> English translation so of course it wont be perfect.
Few notes
1) Didn't know Blizzard had the kind of pull to even consider moving GSL from overseas (doesn't that tell you anything)
2) The Korean Minister was rather rude -- cultural context aside, that's not what you expect from a government official especially in Korea (even though MM "could have had it coming")
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On October 07 2010 23:27 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:27 Red_beard wrote:
IP rights have so many grey areas, where corporations can go bandit on people. Film/game/music corporations basically have monopolies on their products, and the resulting situation is always monopoly vs. customer.
I think that a company claiming that recordings of people playing their game belong to it is wrong. Just like Adidas trying to destroy UEFA and take over the Championships because players are using Adidas footballs/shoes. Or the architect who planned the stadium demanding money for showing the stadium on TV. It's just not right, the game is just a tool - everyone who plays it has bought it legally, that's that. What we want to watch on TV is the players and their skill foremost.
In short, it should not be possible or permissible under law for companies to claim ownerships of recordings of people using their product. If this can happen, then why can't Bosch suddenly demand that everyone pay them extra $$ for living in a house built with Bosch tools.
I think this is really wrong, it destroys creativity and freedom and should simply not be possible in any legal system. Otherwise we are creating a world where more and more companies are simply weaseling money from people using obscure and annoying technological / legal solutions instead of just selling their products on clear terms. [x] Smart post
Agreed, the spoiled post explains the Korean position quite well.
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On October 07 2010 23:30 udgnim wrote:
See now a replay or the games played are in the grey area. I can see it going toward Blizzard's favour since the simple cost of game does not meet the criteria for using the product directly to make money.
At the end it will be balance of
1. 'What did the buyer paid for?' including the price and intention of the parties.
2. Resonableness, has what the defendant created far off from what the Plaintiff created/intended (i.e. Custom Maps are nothing like Blizzard created/intended, replays can be argued because of the notion that the creation process/phase of the game is what Plaintiff had intended)
Who is directly using the product to make money though considering it's free to go and watch to the games and they are broadcast for free on television? If they were charging people to watch games like GomTV then it would probably be clear cut in court, but they aren't. The profit to them is solely the advertisement for the sponsors.
If KeSPA shows in court that the money goes solely towards the continued running of tournaments and upkeep of teams i feel the court will probably rule in their favour. Blizzard's demands were far beyond simply a license fee and seemed pretty unreasonable to me.
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On October 07 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 23:33 ZeaL. wrote:
So an anonymous blogger posts a ridiculous "eyewitness" account, deletes said account, and then curious TL'er finds snippets and translates it for the BW section of TL. 90% of BW section goes into kneejerk reaction and blasts Blizzard for being stupid and not knowing its place, just like every other article posted about KeSPA vs Gretech. Why don't we make a thread in BW where people can just rant and rave about how people want Blizzard to die and KeSPA to win and close it on October 16th when we'll ACTUALLY have a legit idea of whats going to happen. Threads like this are just flamebait to get people angry at Blizzard without any substantial reasoning for it. This type of stuff is just blatant "leaking" information to get people's attention, just like what Apple does every year before their stupid apple conference or whatever. K, to clarify 1) Not an anonymous blogger -- the guy's a pretty famous blogger, and gets interviews with producers/operators of games quite often (he seems to be a game industry insider) 2) He deleted said account after people started linking to it and posting it everywhere 3) Not really snippets, but this is pretty much the entire post Just saying, don't just say "oh this is just a blog post so it isn't credible". I personally find it more credible than a lot of the stuff that gets posted on Fomos Also, to people who says "It doesnt sound like MM", 1) it could easily be a paraphrase, 2) It's a English -> Korean -> Guy overhearing/remembering it -> Korean -> English translation so of course it wont be perfect. Few notes 1) Didn't know Blizzard had the kind of pull to even consider moving GSL from overseas (doesn't that tell you anything) 2) The Korean Minister was rather rude -- cultural context aside, that's not what you expect from a government official especially in Korea (even though MM "could have had it coming")
Okay, that makes it a little more believable, but still, why pull it? If true, what would he have to lose from leaving it online? Also, since you know Korean pretty well, how accurately does the Korean->English translation look in the OP? I just find the whole thing to be too ridiculous to be true, it just sounds like something fabricated to rile people up.
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On October 07 2010 22:27 Red_beard wrote:
IP rights have so many grey areas, where corporations can go bandit on people. Film/game/music corporations basically have monopolies on their products, and the resulting situation is always monopoly vs. customer.
I think that a company claiming that recordings of people playing their game belong to it is wrong. Just like Adidas trying to destroy UEFA and take over the Championships because players are using Adidas footballs/shoes. Or the architect who planned the stadium demanding money for showing the stadium on TV. It's just not right, the game is just a tool - everyone who plays it has bought it legally, that's that. What we want to watch on TV is the players and their skill foremost.
In short, it should not be possible or permissible under law for companies to claim ownerships of recordings of people using their product. If this can happen, then why can't Bosch suddenly demand that everyone pay them extra $$ for living in a house built with Bosch tools.
I think this is really wrong, it destroys creativity and freedom and should simply not be possible in any legal system. Otherwise we are creating a world where more and more companies are simply weaseling money from people using obscure and annoying technological / legal solutions instead of just selling their products on clear terms.
It's all well and good that you think that all people want to watch is the game being played not the game itself, but the fact of the matter is, Blizzard is not agreeing to let you broadcast their game when they sell you the game, in fact, they are explicitly forbidding that you do so without permission. Be it fair or not, that's just how it is. To demand it to be otherwise is the equivalent of buying something at a terrible price and then stealing something else from that vendor to get what you believe is a reasonable amount of goods for your money. As much as this may sounds unreasonable, you don't have to buy/consume SC:BW or SC2, its your choice, and if the price is too high compared to the utility you receive, then don't do it.
If the community is really just looking for the skill of the players when they watch, then its not beyond the scope of imagination to think that they should just develop their own free game, after all, they have the backing of an entire government behind them. And then they wouldn't have any trouble with Blizzard or any of this.
To reiterate what I'm saying here, I'm not expressing whether or not this is "fair", but simply saying that to demand something that both parties did not agree to sets a terrible precedent. The $60 you spent on SC2 is obviously giving you more value as a gamer than $60 you might have spent on some run of the mill Xbox 360 game, despite the fact that SC2 doesn't come with the right to broadcast games of it. Moreover, there is clearly additional value in the broadcast rights to games, and if you didn't get the company to agree to give you those when you bought the game (which we didn't, unless you called up Blizz to negotiate the EULA), then they don't have to give them to you. If the price they are setting on the good is too high, don't buy it. That's just how free markets work, if you have a high quality good, you sell it for more than a low quality good, and if you've got a problem with the fact that Blizzard is doing that, then I feel like you should be advocating world wide communism, not that Blizzard is a terrible greedy company.
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China is the next gaming mecca... end of story
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Regarding the above post by TestSubject - that is exactly what I meant when I said IP creates quasi-monopolies. Those monopolies can be exploited by companies using terms of use contracts, wherein they stipulate that anything you build with the hammer purchased from them is their property.
I believe that, upon selling you a product, the seller is not entitled to complete control over what you do with this product. You may call this socialist, but I do not wish to live in a world where - for example - whenever I take a photograph I have to pay someone a fee for the object or objects being photographed. I do not believe that it is legal or moral to try to stretch property rights at any cost and in any absurd way (you looked at the paining in my hallway through the window, by terms of contract you now owe the author 20 bucks for you 2 minutes of looking). At some point you will get a price tag on the air you breathe.
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Proleague will START very soon and Blizzard is still being a dickhead refusing to cooperate, even with the government.
Of course the government has little right to start the new Proleague without Blizzard's permission, but it has more than enough power to kill off the SC2 scene (Ex : A simple 18+ or 21+ rating will end its life as an e-sport).
If things continue like that, there will be no BW and SC2, what the fuck ?
Blizzard are supposed to concede in this situation, because government never concede, especially against insignificant foreign company like Blizzard. Even if Blizzard concede they still gain a whole lot of profit each year from both Sc1 and Sc2 scenes, I don't get why they are still being headstrong right now.
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On October 08 2010 00:42 mimikami wrote:
Proleague will START very soon and Blizzard is still being a dickhead refusing to cooperate, even with the government.
Of course the government has little right to start the new Proleague without Blizzard's permission, but it has more than enough power to kill off the SC2 scene (Ex : A simple 18+ or 21+ rating will end its life as an e-sport).
If things continue like that, there will be no BW and SC2, what the fuck ?
Blizzard are supposed to concede in this situation, because government never concede, especially against insignificant foreign company like Blizzard. Even if Blizzard concede they still gain a whole lot of profit each year from both Sc1 and Sc2 scenes, I don't get why they are still being headstrong right now.
What do you mean by the government has little right to start the new Proleague? If you are in korean soil, you are under korean law, so that means that they can rule out whatever terms of service blizzard has if they want to.
And I think the people saying that this is a cultural difference is blowing things out of proportion. If he was talking to a US government official in a manner like that, he'd probably get the same reaction seeing as he's the one who wants them to do something.
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Games are inherently in a different area than things like a camera or a shoe or whatever. The engine itself on which the game runs is usually trademarked, being a work of craftmanship taking many, many man-hours to complete. Should the engine just belong to whoever buys it, then? Should people be allowed to take that engine and use it to create their own games and sell them, without the company's permission?
In addition, in games like Starcraft, almost all the in-game content, from the art, the unit names, the critters, etc, are all intellectual property, in the same way the character of Han Solo is intellectual property; should anyone be able to write a novel about Han Solo, and then sell it for big bucks?
The analogy of a hammer is useless here. The hammer is one tool of many that is used to perform a few simple tasks in conjunction with a vast amount of raw material. The hammer is not a creative work, nor is it a work that is as much the grounds of your creations as a game and a game engine are.
A better one would be a book; just because someone sells you a book, that doesn't give you any right to rearrange the pages in it (which is essentially what most map-making consists of; merely re-arranging assets and art that Blizzard has provided for you) and sell it as your own product; nor does it give you a right to take the characters from that book, put them in an adventure of your own, and then sell it (which is what perhaps more creative map-makers do, the ones who still use Blizzard art and assets); and nor does it give you a right to take the book, write over it with your own plot and characters, and sell it (which is what map-makes who only use the engine are essentially doing).
It's fine if you think you should be able to do all these things; but these are essentially the relevant questions here, and following them is not some kind of ridiculous tyranny, as you're making it out to be.
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What do you mean by the government has little right to start the new Proleague? If you are in korean soil, you are under korean law, so that means that they can rule out whatever terms of service blizzard has if they want to.
And I think the people saying that this is a cultural difference is blowing things out of proportion. If he was talking to a US government official in a manner like that, he'd probably get the same reaction seeing as he's the one who wants them to do something.
Korea is party to international laws on IP rights. They can't simply change things around without getting into deep, deep waters legally...
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On October 08 2010 00:56 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +What do you mean by the government has little right to start the new Proleague? If you are in korean soil, you are under korean law, so that means that they can rule out whatever terms of service blizzard has if they want to.
And I think the people saying that this is a cultural difference is blowing things out of proportion. If he was talking to a US government official in a manner like that, he'd probably get the same reaction seeing as he's the one who wants them to do something. Korea is party to international laws on IP rights. They can't simply change things around without getting into deep, deep waters legally...
It's not as clearcut as you think. As been said by other people, Blizzard is claiming IP rights to things without precedent like replays and everything that is used within their game.
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On October 08 2010 00:29 Red_beard wrote:
Regarding the above post by TestSubject - that is exactly what I meant when I said IP creates quasi-monopolies. Those monopolies can be exploited by companies using terms of use contracts, wherein they stipulate that anything you build with the hammer purchased from them is their property.
I believe that, upon selling you a product, the seller is not entitled to complete control over what you do with this product. You may call this socialist, but I do not wish to live in a world where - for example - whenever I take a photograph I have to pay someone a fee for the object or objects being photographed. I do not believe that it is legal or moral to try to stretch property rights at any cost and in any absurd way (you looked at the paining in my hallway through the window, by terms of contract you now owe the author 20 bucks for you 2 minutes of looking). At some point you will get a price tag on the air you breathe.
With a hammer though, you simply wouldn't buy the hammer that had the ridiculous contract, you would buy the one offer by a different company without it. This would cause the contracted hammer company to either lower their prices, drop the contract, or go out of business, all of which are working toward a better hammer for your money.
But really, I'm not as much saying that this system is ideal for video games, but the fact of the matter is, its the system we have in place, and I think its more "unfair" to try and force a company into something that we decide is best for consumers in a way that is inconsistent with our economic laws rules than it is "unfair" to let Blizzard name their price on their product. The fact that so many people find it so incredibly undesirable to just not consume their product, to me, seems to show its value even more, and suggest that is worth more money than it being sold for now.
The key in all of this is that both parties understand and consent beforehand, and that's why in practice things get so messy. If you knew that your hammer came with a shitty contract, you'd buy a different tool or even consider making our own. It seems that with Blizzard's games, people kind of just took the EULA as some legal garbage that didn't mean anything, and as such, everyone has agreed to something they didn't really intend to agree to. To me, there enlies the real problem. If people took EULAs more seriously, then companies would have to stop putting so much ridiculous stuff in them or people wouldn't buy the games, and ultimately we wouldn't end up where we are now, if the game companies going "But, you agreed to this!!!" and the consumers saying "That doesn't really count, everyone just presses agree anyway...". When it comes down to it, the product we buy comes with the condition of the EULA, whether or not we take them seriously.
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Well I really hope Blizzard backs down, and going through this entire thread, I found the best post was this:
On October 07 2010 15:23 snowdrift wrote:
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all.
I mostly just agree because I hate the IP rights Blizzard is trying to enforce.
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Well, as a person who has being in some important political meetings in my country, I can say that things can go in the way that the blogger stated, I have heard very important people swearing, being rude with others and getting the same as back, nothing strange in that point. What really matters here is that if Activision - Blizzard is challenging a government they are going to lose and not for the IP rights stuff (I let that to the experts in that matter), remember the governments have teeth very sharp teeth, they only need to put some strange regulation and you will be just out of the scene.
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I'm not so sure I trust this article too much if the rough translation holds the same amount of bias in it.
No one should be surprised that members of the USA government were there. This is an issue regarding international laws, and more importantly, laws that affect trade, something the US is very keen about.
Regardless, now that it's reached this point we're headed down the Cuban Missile Crisis Route, in the sense that it is no longer about Cuba vs. the US, and now more along the lines of the Soviet Union vs. the US.
And much like in that case, the two major parties will come to a settlement and everyone else will have to deal with it. Blizzard won't get quite what they demand and KeSPA will probably just end up paying a small amount of money to host BW.
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go kespa! <3 i just want bw to carry on ^^
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laws that affect trade, something the US is very keen about.
Yeah, especially when it comes to ignoring World Trade Organization rulling about online gambling.
US government as every government is keen about enforcing rules to ensure its profit (not that there is anything wrong with it, that's what governments are for).
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Not a good idea to be rude to someone in a position of power in Korea when negotiating IMO. 'Face' is very important.
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On October 07 2010 15:07 seRapH wrote:gogo korea! stuff gsl overseas please! and broodwar will liiiiive! + Show Spoiler +ok fine gsl will die miserably if it goes overseas. but AT LEAST BW WILL LIIIVE
I wasnt about to word it myself, but these were my exact thoughts upon reading that part
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On October 08 2010 01:06 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 00:29 Red_beard wrote:
Regarding the above post by TestSubject - that is exactly what I meant when I said IP creates quasi-monopolies. Those monopolies can be exploited by companies using terms of use contracts, wherein they stipulate that anything you build with the hammer purchased from them is their property.
I believe that, upon selling you a product, the seller is not entitled to complete control over what you do with this product. You may call this socialist, but I do not wish to live in a world where - for example - whenever I take a photograph I have to pay someone a fee for the object or objects being photographed. I do not believe that it is legal or moral to try to stretch property rights at any cost and in any absurd way (you looked at the paining in my hallway through the window, by terms of contract you now owe the author 20 bucks for you 2 minutes of looking). At some point you will get a price tag on the air you breathe. With a hammer though, you simply wouldn't buy the hammer that had the ridiculous contract, you would buy the one offer by a different company without it. This would cause the contracted hammer company to either lower their prices, drop the contract, or go out of business, all of which are working toward a better hammer for your money. But really, I'm not as much saying that this system is ideal for video games, but the fact of the matter is, its the system we have in place, and I think its more "unfair" to try and force a company into something that we decide is best for consumers in a way that is inconsistent with our economic laws rules than it is "unfair" to let Blizzard name their price on their product. The fact that so many people find it so incredibly undesirable to just not consume their product, to me, seems to show its value even more, and suggest that is worth more money than it being sold for now. The key in all of this is that both parties understand and consent beforehand, and that's why in practice things get so messy. If you knew that your hammer came with a shitty contract, you'd buy a different tool or even consider making our own. It seems that with Blizzard's games, people kind of just took the EULA as some legal garbage that didn't mean anything, and as such, everyone has agreed to something they didn't really intend to agree to. To me, there enlies the real problem. If people took EULAs more seriously, then companies would have to stop putting so much ridiculous stuff in them or people wouldn't buy the games, and ultimately we wouldn't end up where we are now, if the game companies going "But, you agreed to this!!!" and the consumers saying "That doesn't really count, everyone just presses agree anyway...". When it comes down to it, the product we buy comes with the condition of the EULA, whether or not we take them seriously.
If a EULA said "By purchasing this product, you sign away your life to us in eternal servitude", even if you purchased that product, courts would laugh at anyone that tries to enforce it. Just because a EULA says something doesn't make it automagically legal.
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On October 08 2010 01:08 Armathai wrote:Well I really hope Blizzard backs down, and going through this entire thread, I found the best post was this: Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:23 snowdrift wrote:
Fuck yeah
For the sake of BW and the principle of not having a single entity establish a monopoly over esports, KeSPA and Korea need to win.
By any means necessary. I want bribes, I want collusion between giant conglomerates and government agencies, I want stone-faced -- CJ-faced, Jaedong-staring -- Korean officials to investigate, to stall, to delay; I want judges to bring down the hammer and tear apart this extremely restrictive conception of IP rights. SC2 will exist freely, or will not exist at all. I mostly just agree because I hate the IP rights Blizzard is trying to enforce.
As much as I agree that Blizzard should back down you do realize KeSPA has a monopoly over the Korean Brood War scene in itself. Just playing devil's advocate. :/
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So, the very same company that almoust copycat universes of WH to make exelent games, now is fighting for its IP with a goverments? XD
Oh wait, what i'm just saying? radioactive Lizzard is not the same company.
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Blizzard has been behaving deplorably.
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On October 08 2010 01:30 sAAvior wrote:Yeah, especially when it comes to ignoring World Trade Organization rulling about online gambling.
You're saying that as if it's just the US who ignores that.
Regardless, gambling sites don't really affect trade. This issue, however, carries far more clout to it, as it relates to international IP rights. And keep in mind these IP rights relate to a multitude of multi-billion dollar genres.
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On October 07 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 23:33 ZeaL. wrote:
So an anonymous blogger posts a ridiculous "eyewitness" account, deletes said account, and then curious TL'er finds snippets and translates it for the BW section of TL. 90% of BW section goes into kneejerk reaction and blasts Blizzard for being stupid and not knowing its place, just like every other article posted about KeSPA vs Gretech. Why don't we make a thread in BW where people can just rant and rave about how people want Blizzard to die and KeSPA to win and close it on October 16th when we'll ACTUALLY have a legit idea of whats going to happen. Threads like this are just flamebait to get people angry at Blizzard without any substantial reasoning for it. This type of stuff is just blatant "leaking" information to get people's attention, just like what Apple does every year before their stupid apple conference or whatever. K, to clarify 1) Not an anonymous blogger -- the guy's a pretty famous blogger, and gets interviews with producers/operators of games quite often (he seems to be a game industry insider) 2) He deleted said account after people started linking to it and posting it everywhere 3) Not really snippets, but this is pretty much the entire post Just saying, don't just say "oh this is just a blog post so it isn't credible". I personally find it more credible than a lot of the stuff that gets posted on Fomos Also, to people who says "It doesnt sound like MM", 1) it could easily be a paraphrase, 2) It's a English -> Korean -> Guy overhearing/remembering it -> Korean -> English translation so of course it wont be perfect. Few notes 1) Didn't know Blizzard had the kind of pull to even consider moving GSL from overseas (doesn't that tell you anything) 2) The Korean Minister was rather rude -- cultural context aside, that's not what you expect from a government official especially in Korea (even though MM "could have had it coming")
I trust you completely, Milkis, but I trust sources only when they can be held responsible for what they output. One person, no matter who it is, paraphrasing in a blog and deleting said blog once he finds out people are using it as a source does not sound like he's willing to be responsible for what he writes. I'm still skeptical on 100% of the "article".
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On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe?
Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff.
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On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff.
Which page?
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On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page?
Page 5, by Lokian.
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On October 08 2010 02:20 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page? Page 5, by Lokian.
Is he an IP right lawyer?
If not, it's just one person's opinion, he can be totally wrong, who give it a crap.
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Corporations and governments only have 2 things in mind. Power and money. Corporations make money by selling a product and using that money to influence others. Governments make money by taxing people and have power of force. Go corporations!!!!
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On October 08 2010 02:25 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:20 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page? Page 5, by Lokian. Is he an IP right lawyer? If not, it's just one person's opinion, he can be totally wrong, who give it a crap.
He's right. I took a few business law classes as well. The analogies of BW to products like Adobe Photoshop and typewriters are just completely ignorant. There is a huge distinction between products used to make other products and products like movies, books, etc.
You don't even need to be an IP rights lawyer. Just have some basic knowledge of the law before making unfounded analogies...
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if the gsl does go overseas wont the quality of plays go down? Sounds kind of biased but Korea has a lot of good players that I think could beat "pros" from other countries.
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All i would like to tell Blizzard: "Do you really want more money?" and also "terrible terrible idea to fight with government"
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On October 08 2010 02:36 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:25 hydraden wrote:On October 08 2010 02:20 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page? Page 5, by Lokian. Is he an IP right lawyer? If not, it's just one person's opinion, he can be totally wrong, who give it a crap. He's right. I took a few business law classes as well. The analogies of BW to products like Adobe Photoshop and typewriters are just completely ignorant. There is a huge distinction between products used to make other products and products like movies, books, etc. You don't even need to be an IP rights lawyer. Just have some basic knowledge of the law before making unfounded analogies...
Don't assume everybody is dumb, I took Business law classes too. This issue has no precedent, and no specific law on this area. If it goes to court, both party have good arguments. It can drag for years to settle. Million dollar lawyers can't even settle it clearly, you a student wants to be the judge, joke!
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Actually it's borderline Andrew. We've had this discussion before. Considering the map editor is technically a product to create another product and the old end license agreement in Brood War it isn't so simple and clear-cut as people make it out to be.
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On October 08 2010 02:53 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:36 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:25 hydraden wrote:On October 08 2010 02:20 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page? Page 5, by Lokian. Is he an IP right lawyer? If not, it's just one person's opinion, he can be totally wrong, who give it a crap. He's right. I took a few business law classes as well. The analogies of BW to products like Adobe Photoshop and typewriters are just completely ignorant. There is a huge distinction between products used to make other products and products like movies, books, etc. You don't even need to be an IP rights lawyer. Just have some basic knowledge of the law before making unfounded analogies... Don't assume everybody is dumb, I took Business law classes too. This issue has no precedent, and no specific law on this area. If it goes to court, both party have good arguments. It can drag for years to settle. Million dollar lawyers can't even settle it clearly, you a student wants to be the judge, joke!
^ this
Oh and know why there is no precedent to this before? Because never before has a firm tried to charge people for organising tournaments using their games, much less owning all Custom Maps made, or Replays. How is it that so many people are conveniently ignoring all these money-grubbing stunts that Blizz is pulling?...
Also, can it be charged if you are using different maps from ones released by Blizz, effectively playing Custom Maps, to which Blizz's Map Editor served as a tool to create?
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Yeah, I don't trust this blog post whatsoever. Poor translation or not if this guy is trying to be a e-journalist of any sort you sure as hell don't post both sides acting as a child unless they really are acting like children and you damn well better have some sort of truth to it and I am sorry I can't see either a CEO of a major company or a high level minister acting in the manner they've portrayed.
You then don't delete it and pretend it didn't happen. It just seems iffy, this just seems like a move to string tensions even higher then it already is. At best this blogger seems like he posted some tldr version of something he saw and then took it down realizing how badly that looks on the quality of his work.
Co-existence is the best solution for the record but that should be pretty obvious to everyone. Fans can love both. I sure as hell do.
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Canada11297 Posts
On October 08 2010 03:44 Parnage wrote:
Yeah, I don't trust this blog post whatsoever. Poor translation or not if this guy is trying to be a e-journalist of any sort you sure as hell don't post both sides acting as a child unless they really are acting like children and you damn well better have some sort of truth to it and I am sorry I can't see either a CEO of a major company or a high level minister acting in the manner they've portrayed.
You then don't delete it and pretend it didn't happen. It just seems iffy, this just seems like a move to string tensions even higher then it already is. At best this blogger seems like he posted some tldr version of something he saw and then took it down realizing how badly that looks on the quality of his work.
Co-existence is the best solution for the record but that should be pretty obvious to everyone. Fans can love both. I sure as hell do.
This is my line of thought as well. I know everyone's into indie journalism these days, but given how outrageous the statements are, I would definitely want to know who this blogger is, what his interests are, and why he isn't sticking to his guns. Ethos arguments will naturally be more persuasive to those who knew about this blogger before hand.
As it stands, I would take the actual comments with a grain of salt, perhaps the attitudes were less than cordial, but I'd be hesitant to call a pox on both houses based upon this.
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Good luck Korea. And Blizzard is a regular company, seriously, how can they talk like that to a minister of a company? If Samsung, one of the biggest companies in the world, started bashing a US minister, wouldn't you be pissed?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On October 08 2010 04:26 Tazza wrote:
Good luck Korea. And Blizzard is a regular company, seriously, how can they talk like that to a minister of a company? If Samsung, one of the biggest companies in the world, started bashing a US minister, wouldn't you be pissed?
Not if US were using anti-competitive practices...
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On October 08 2010 04:26 Tazza wrote:
Good luck Korea. And Blizzard is a regular company, seriously, how can they talk like that to a minister of a company? If Samsung, one of the biggest companies in the world, started bashing a US minister, wouldn't you be pissed?
Since I'm not American I'll just go ahead and *insert random country* minister.
But seriously, there are some politicians that I would gladly let MM verbally abuse. Infact, I would sit on the goddam sidline and cheer on MM.
Then again, you naivëly assume the information given in the conviniently deleted blogpost is 100% correct which pretty much would mean that both MM and the South Korean minister are mentally challenged, I do wonder which one of them being retarded is more intriguing.
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I simply can't understand this. If I created a game rep. Why the IR did not belong to me? When you look a rep, do you say"OH, the CC is beautiful" or "I simply enjoy zergling runing"? No, we are not looking at the game engine but rather the tactics, the micro, the suspense all created by the player. So it's nothing like a book or a movie, there is nothing worth looking without players creative work. I'd say the player would more deverse the IR for the rep than some bussiness guys. I know little about bussiness laws. Can anyone enlighten me whether there's any protection for individual IR against greedy companies?
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On October 08 2010 02:53 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:36 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:25 hydraden wrote:On October 08 2010 02:20 andrewlt wrote:On October 08 2010 02:12 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 08 2010 02:08 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 23:00 TheGreatHegemon wrote:On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is. [Cite your source] This seems to be an argument over derivative goods, isn't it? I am not a lawyer, but those were traditionally NOT under the original IP. Are all images made in Adobe Photoshop property of Adobe? Can people stop this nonsense? This garbage argument keeps getting repeated on these forums. It was already explained a few pages back that there is a huge difference between utilitarian products and other stuff. Which page? Page 5, by Lokian. Is he an IP right lawyer? If not, it's just one person's opinion, he can be totally wrong, who give it a crap. He's right. I took a few business law classes as well. The analogies of BW to products like Adobe Photoshop and typewriters are just completely ignorant. There is a huge distinction between products used to make other products and products like movies, books, etc. You don't even need to be an IP rights lawyer. Just have some basic knowledge of the law before making unfounded analogies... Don't assume everybody is dumb, I took Business law classes too. This issue has no precedent, and no specific law on this area. If it goes to court, both party have good arguments. It can drag for years to settle. Million dollar lawyers can't even settle it clearly, you a student wants to be the judge, joke!
this thread has degenerated into a pissing contest
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Since ILoveANAL, I cannot say anything as to what the law actually is and what actually is legal/illegal.
What I can say, however, is that granting the video game company rights over tournament broadcasts at best does not help the scene. I know the broadcast would include artwork and intellectual property owned by the video game company, but please, think of the kittens!
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Is GSL going oversea even remotely viable? O__o
What the hell is Blizzard trying to accomplish?
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Thnx for translating. If this is fact, blizz. definately has something to learn about running a good business. You don't ever treat a political representative of another country like shit, idiots.
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If GSL leaves Korea, SC2 is bound to be a failure.
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Why won't Blizz just sponsor their own PL team?
Imagine they rivalry/buzz it will generate if they put that PL team into BW. KT vs Blizz will be PERSONAL!
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On October 07 2010 15:23 GTR wrote:
Remember it's Activision-Blizzard vs Korea, not just Blizzard, so this will be interesting ;d
No, it won't be. -_- That fact that you even consider this light-heartedly is disrespectful at minimum. The vicissitudes of the ActivisionBlizzard and KESPA relation ship is not a topic to consider light-heartedly.
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Korea vs. Blizzard eh? Lol. Fun times.
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On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA.
Sorry but in no way will a game get in the way of our relationship. There would be no South Korea if the US wouldn`t be there to back them up against North Korea.
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I don't get how KESPA thinks they can use copyrighted Blizzard assets on TV seven days a week without approval. Obviously the US should be backing up Blizzard in this.
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On October 08 2010 08:02 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I don't get how KESPA thinks they can use copyrighted Blizzard assets on TV seven days a week without approval. Obviously the US should be backing up Blizzard in this.
That's not copyright, KeSPA did not copy anything.
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this is why tae kwon do was devised 800 years ago. to kick mike morhaime off his high horse
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On October 08 2010 08:08 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:02 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I don't get how KESPA thinks they can use copyrighted Blizzard assets on TV seven days a week without approval. Obviously the US should be backing up Blizzard in this. That's not copyright, KeSPA did not copy anything.
They are using copyrighted Blizzard music, pictures, characters, voice acting, and lots more in for-profit broadcasting. You couldn't just take a Beatles song and put it in your commercial without paying, why should a Blizzard song be any different because it's in a video game? Or why should a video game be any different when it takes much more work to make one than to make a rock album?
If KESPA doesn't want to pay Blizzard, all they have to do is develop their own RTS game and have their talented players play that instead. They are better at making maps than Blizzard, so why not make an RTS? If they can't make their own RTS game, it just goes to prove that they really need Blizzard and thus should be paying Blizzard for their work.
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Why do people think GSL will die if it goes elsewhere? Starcraft 2 has fans around the world :O
There's the MLG and the IEM - wouldn't it just be a bigger tournament for us, and it might also prove more appealing to western media. I think it would be better for us.
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Yeah, sounds to me like Blizzard is perfectly legitimate here. I think most TLers just have a twisted sense of justice on this matter because they are relatively pro-piracy.
If they're not respecting intellectual property then they're not respecting intellectual property.
The attitude that social position matters at all "just a president of an ordinary company" is completely terrible and irrelevant.
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If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
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On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
NBA is selling broadcast right to espn, TNT.
NBA is not somebody invented basketball, they just organize league.
KeSPA is in the same position as NBA.
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On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
KeSPA sold the rights to air its leagues. Also, depending on how you look at it, KeSPA is involved (remotely) in paying the players, since its made up of the team sponsors themselves. The money was charged since only OGN and MBC draw in direct revenue for their sponsoring (from selling ads during league events), while the rest of the sponsors do not. The revenue goes towards organizing further leagues, courage tournaments, etc.
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On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
have you read something about this subject .. (maybe the OP)?, Kespa offered a sum of money to Blizz.
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Just keep telling yourself that Blizzard owns everything, anti-Kespa blizz fanboys. Obviously if everything did belong to Blizzard then Kespa would have been sued many times over, rather than being held up by an empty bluff because Blizzard has no leverage whatsoever.
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On October 08 2010 08:47 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
NBA is selling broadcast right to espn, TNT. NBA is not somebody invented basketball, they just organize league. KeSPA is in the same position as NBA.
Yeah except Naismith (inventor of Basketball) didn't copyright "basket ball" as he called it. He hated it and preferred gymnastics and wrestling and said "You can't coach basketball; you just play it." Also, the game made by Naismith is hella different from what the NBA game is like. It's kinda like the difference between Dune II and Starcraft II. The NBA has done much to create their own game - it looks much different from international ball, for instance.
Naismith didn't do any voice acting, or art design, or music, or word-for-word coding that the NBA uses. So it's a lot different from the NBA.
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On October 08 2010 08:51 zenMaster wrote:
Just keep telling yourself that Blizzard owns everything, anti-Kespa blizz fanboys. Obviously if everything did belong to Blizzard then Kespa would have been sued many times over, rather than being held up by an empty bluff because Blizzard has no leverage whatsoever.
Blizzard was late to act, sure. In any case, they probably didn't have the resources to get understanding of and leverage in the Korean legal system until now.
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On October 08 2010 08:47 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
NBA is selling broadcast right to espn, TNT. NBA is not somebody invented basketball, they just organize league. KeSPA is in the same position as NBA.
NBA don't have control over "basketball" in United States. Anyone can start their own basketball league. The NBA league is just by far the biggest. Kespa have control over not just specific leagues but Starcraft in general. Or perhaps another organisation could start their own Starcraft leagues without Kespa if they wanted to? I guess GOM did it with the GOM classics so it's not total control by Kespa.
But isn't the OSL, the pro league and the MSL three different leagues? Why does Kespa control all of these?
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Wow this case is getting a bit out of hand but hopefully both scenes won't come out too damaged... Sometimes I dream of a place where BW and Sc2 could coexist, and every fan would be happy.
Anyways politics are always there to mess and complicate things up so I'm not very surprised.
By the way that conversation between MM and Vice Minister of Korean Department of Culture felt really... awkward. I won't question sources because nowadays some info is always better than no info at all.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 08 2010 09:00 crazeh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:47 hydraden wrote:On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
NBA is selling broadcast right to espn, TNT. NBA is not somebody invented basketball, they just organize league. KeSPA is in the same position as NBA. NBA don't have control over "basketball" in United States. Anyone can start their own basketball league. The NBA league is just by far the biggest. Kespa have control over not just specific leagues but Starcraft in general. Or perhaps another organisation could start their own Starcraft leagues without Kespa if they wanted to? I guess GOM did it with the GOM classics so it's not total control by Kespa. But isn't the OSL, the pro league and the MSL three different leagues? Why does Kespa control all of these?
KeSPA owns the rights to its own leagues, thats what it leases out to the broadcasting networks, not Starcraft in general. OSL/MSL/SPL are all run under KeSPA and all use KeSPA licensed players, that's why KeSPA controls these.
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On October 08 2010 09:11 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 09:00 crazeh wrote:On October 08 2010 08:47 hydraden wrote:On October 08 2010 08:39 crazeh wrote:
If Kespa are against Blizzard charging them to broadcast Starcaft then how is that Kespa charged MBC and OGN for years for the broadcasting rights to Starcraft? Why have OGN and MBC had to buy broadcasting rights for Starcraft if the game is public property? What rights have Kespa been selling? Why does Kespa even exist as an authoritative figure in Korean Stacraft? They don't own the IP rights to the game, they don't pay the players (the teams sponsors/owners do right?) According to them anyone should be allowed to broadcast Starcraft free of charge in Korea correct?
NBA is selling broadcast right to espn, TNT. NBA is not somebody invented basketball, they just organize league. KeSPA is in the same position as NBA. NBA don't have control over "basketball" in United States. Anyone can start their own basketball league. The NBA league is just by far the biggest. Kespa have control over not just specific leagues but Starcraft in general. Or perhaps another organisation could start their own Starcraft leagues without Kespa if they wanted to? I guess GOM did it with the GOM classics so it's not total control by Kespa. But isn't the OSL, the pro league and the MSL three different leagues? Why does Kespa control all of these? KeSPA owns the rights to its own leagues, thats what it leases out to the broadcasting networks, not Starcraft in general. OSL/MSL/SPL are all run under KeSPA and all use KeSPA licensed players, that's why KeSPA controls these.
How exactly did the OSL and MSL start? Did Kespa create them? or did OGN and MBC create them?
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On October 08 2010 08:39 PinkPrincess wrote:
Yeah, sounds to me like Blizzard is perfectly legitimate here. I think most TLers just have a twisted sense of justice on this matter because they are relatively pro-piracy.
If they're not respecting intellectual property then they're not respecting intellectual property.
The attitude that social position matters at all "just a president of an ordinary company" is completely terrible and irrelevant.
First, please get off your high horse.
Second, please read the thread. this has been addressed several times. The problems started not because KeSPA doesn't want to pay Blizzard (or Gretech) over the SC2 IP. Thy have offered money multiple times
What is a stake here is the terms under which this licensig happens.
Blizzard claims that derivative work, by extension, is also theirs. Derivative work is the replays, new maps, all the footage created in the broadcast. This is what has no precedent. KeSPA licenses the right of transmitting the derivative work, not SC2 itself. And if Blizzard wins, it really opens the gate of companies abusing IP property claims.
For example, in the Ultimate Gamer show, production licenses each game that is played, but not, and should not, have to license the footage result by the players interacting with the game.
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On October 07 2010 16:23 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:19 lostshard wrote:
This sounds more like propaganda than fact at the moment. It seems like they are trying to get the korean public mad at Blizzard. Since there is no direct proof its just a supposed first party account. With (mostly young) Korean people's general distrust of the government (then again, what nation's populace always trust their government?), they won't become mad at Blizzard just because of this particular news. Generally, netizens don't look favorably upon KeSPA now. Used to have lot more pro-KeSPA netizens few months ago. Show nested quote +
Also, what does the whole IP thing with BW have to do with GSL? Why would GSL have to leave? Anyone care to explain?
If this whole debacle falls in favor of KeSPA, all IP of secondary products such as e-sports shows, will not belong to the original creator (in this case, Blizzard). As a result, KeSPA can have free reign over SC 2 tournaments of their own, as well as broadcasts as they see fit without worrying about Blizzard or Gretech. If that happens, we all know Gretech is going to really die this time.
koreans are already not happy with blizzard. they are trying to shut down blizzard, the one e-sport that they love above all else.
netizens hate for kespa is trumped by blizzard being douchebags.
i hope activision-blizzard loses. im glad im still boycotting sc2 even though most of my friends switched over.
at this rate, i cant buy d3
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On October 08 2010 08:23 Tdelamay wrote:
Why do people think GSL will die if it goes elsewhere? Starcraft 2 has fans around the world :O
There's the MLG and the IEM - wouldn't it just be a bigger tournament for us, and it might also prove more appealing to western media. I think it would be better for us.
:D gl finding a sponsor for such a league like the GSL overseas
and plz dont kid urself MLG and IEM is not even esport...
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On October 08 2010 06:48 us.insurgency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:18 Selith wrote:Bad news for Korea: http://www.clubcity.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=64339In addition to Michael Morhaime, in attendance were: Members of USA FTA agency, as well as US embassy. If it did go down as bad as the eyewitness says it were, it might cause very negative impact in upcoming USA FTA policy as well as relations with USA. Since Korean government is very pro-USA and would do anything to be on good side with them, they might find themselves to be between a rock and a hard place, as they must find a way to appease both Korean chae-bols and interests of USA. Sorry but in no way will a game get in the way of our relationship. There would be no South Korea if the US wouldn`t be there to back them up against North Korea.
you are right.
if US and soviet union kept their dirty fucking hands off the region, there would be one united peninsula and no korean war to begin with.
with the aftermath of WW2, and the splitting up territories for control/influence, both the USSR and USA set up puppet governments that are in support of the country that started it.
the country's relations have nothing to do with the ailments of ONE gaming company, when millions more are at stake for trade and what not.
fucking blizzard is out of their minds coming back to the original topic
why should they own replays, broadcasts and what not WHEN EVERYONE HAS ALREADY PAYED FOR THE GAME AT HAND. its like buying photoshop and illustrator... and Adobe coming in and saying... "hey, u used our software to make something, hence the final product is OURS! NOT YOURS!"
fuck blizzard and their greedy hands.
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On October 08 2010 09:37 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:23 Tdelamay wrote:
Why do people think GSL will die if it goes elsewhere? Starcraft 2 has fans around the world :O
There's the MLG and the IEM - wouldn't it just be a bigger tournament for us, and it might also prove more appealing to western media. I think it would be better for us. :D gl finding a sponsor for such a league like the GSL overseas and plz dont kid urself MLG and IEM is not even esport...
only way GSL can support itself out of korea is if blizzard decides to pump large amounts of money into it, constantly.
you ain't gonna find huge sponsors, it ain't gonna be on ESPN with company's paying for prime time advertisement.
in korea, you can actually air it on TV with a good enough audience base to justify corporations to buy advertisement time.
in the western world.... it just aint gonna happen.
i hope GSL moves to the USA or europe... and i will love to watch it fail once blizzard loses interest after pumping in god knows how much money for broadcasting it, (nobody is gonna pay blizzard to broadcast sc2), supplying the huge cash prizes and other costs like setting up tourney venues, etc.
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Bottom line, blizzard are some greedy motherfuckers. Even if they have justice om their side(which is something we can only wait and see), their respect as an esports company is long gone.
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Ah.. I was wondering why he wrote that long-winded and pointless letter. Damage control.
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On October 08 2010 09:56 XsebT wrote:
Bottom line, blizzard are some greedy motherfuckers. Even if they have justice om their side(which is something we can only wait and see), their respect as an esports company is long gone.
remember their whole speech on esports promotion....
then they hit us with sc2 where you cant play with ppl from outside your region without buying another copy of the game...
they hit you with maps that are obviously horrid with no variety besides short distances.....
and they hit you with trying to shut down esports of bw in order to force ppl to sc2.... =(
yeah they are greedy.
yeah they dont care for esports...
ugh
damnn you blizzard.
you used to be so good to usT___T
i hope it's just activition's influence...
but i'm afraid blizzard has joined the ranks of EA, activision, etc...
just another greedy fucking company.
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Sigh.
Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money. All they have to do is keep putting up prize pools that dwarf that of the MSL and OSL and the Flash and Jaedongs of the world will stampede to join up. And -- as a bonus -- participation in the GSL won't preclude participation in any other events, unlike the KeSPA "we own our players" model.
So long as Blizzard is willing to put out the cash, which can be seen as an extension of the SC2 marketing budget, they can hold the tournaments in Somalia and it'll still draw both top talent and broadcasters.
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Sigh.
Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money. All they have to do is keep putting up prize pools that dwarf that of the MSL and OSL and the Flash and Jaedongs of the world will stampede to join up. And -- as a bonus -- participation in the GSL won't preclude participation in any other events, unlike the KeSPA "we own our players" model.
So long as Blizzard is willing to put out the cash, which can be seen as an extension of the SC2 marketing budget, they can hold the tournaments in Somalia and it'll still draw both top talent and broadcasters.
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On October 07 2010 15:07 seRapH wrote:gogo korea! stuff gsl overseas please! and broodwar will liiiiive! + Show Spoiler +ok fine gsl will die miserably if it goes overseas. but AT LEAST BW WILL LIIIVE
Heh, I totally agree.
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i really hope to see gsl go overseas...fail or not it doesn't concern me as long as I can watch BW proscene in korea
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On October 08 2010 11:34 Cotonou wrote:
Sigh.
Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money. All they have to do is keep putting up prize pools that dwarf that of the MSL and OSL and the Flash and Jaedongs of the world will stampede to join up. And -- as a bonus -- participation in the GSL won't preclude participation in any other events, unlike the KeSPA "we own our players" model.
So long as Blizzard is willing to put out the cash, which can be seen as an extension of the SC2 marketing budget, they can hold the tournaments in Somalia and it'll still draw both top talent and broadcasters.
There's one giant thing you're missing here. NO ONE in Somalia will show up to watch a Starcraft or any kind of game event. Only this will work in Korea. No other country in the world will have 10000 people show up to watch a video game.
Also, to all the people that are complaining about ip rights, you don't see the EPL or La Liga paying fees to the guy that created futbol do you?
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Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money.
LOL.
If anything KeSPA has the money.
You realize that all those progamers wearing clothes with fancy logos are paid regular salaries, train in sponsored hause, eat sponsored food and travel by sponsored means ?
Also there are a lot of major tournaments in a year, all with decent prizes. Comparing to all this money in GSL is a joke, not even a joke. It's like completely different planet.
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On October 08 2010 08:10 zeppelin wrote:
this is why tae kwon do was devised 800 years ago. to kick mike morhaime off his high horse
I just wanted to say, this was the best line ever in this thread and under appreciated. =)
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On October 08 2010 11:55 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 11:34 Cotonou wrote:
Sigh.
Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money. All they have to do is keep putting up prize pools that dwarf that of the MSL and OSL and the Flash and Jaedongs of the world will stampede to join up. And -- as a bonus -- participation in the GSL won't preclude participation in any other events, unlike the KeSPA "we own our players" model.
So long as Blizzard is willing to put out the cash, which can be seen as an extension of the SC2 marketing budget, they can hold the tournaments in Somalia and it'll still draw both top talent and broadcasters. SCII guys... dont even know what they are talking about Pretty sure prize money is the reason why Flash and Jaedong play SC:BW not because the salary not because of the fame and stuff. no because of Prize money they MIGHT win if they crush the tournament and yes they need korea. no one outside of korea would even think about broadcasting some "nerd"game these days... mb in 10-20 years when "we" are the old ones... if the ydont have korea SCII will be another Wc3. tournaments until the new game is annoucned.
rofl
the salary of flash alone is more than 3 GSL prize moneys
there is money in OSL and MSL, and due to the fact that flash and jaedong is almsot guaranteed to hit the money (1st/2nd place), why would they switch?
the top players are making somewhere around 200-300k a year in salary alone... not to mention free transportation, free food, free housing... why would ANY GOOD BW player switch over to SC2, where there is no free housing, you must pay for your own food, there is no salaray, no guaranteed money, the tourneys aren't guranteed...
blizzard won't keep putting in cash, especially if GSL is held out of the country.
there is no money in advertiisement, nobody watches e-sports like ppl in south korea.
if anything... blizzard doesn't need korea due to sales of sc2 being good.
however, if they ever want anything approaching close to BW achieved, they need korea
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I dont understand this guys. I mean, up until now, everybody outside of korea hated kespa???
Now you think blizzard is the worse of the two evils? Not me. Even though Im very displeased with blizzard, and yes I have some preconcieved ideas about dustin browder coming over from C&C, I still dislike kespa faaar more than blizzard. So, in my eyes, go blizzard. Kick some ass!
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On October 08 2010 13:22 DyEnasTy wrote:
I dont understand this guys. I mean, up until now, everybody outside of korea hated kespa???
Now you think blizzard is the worse of the two evils? Not me. Even though Im very displeased with blizzard, and yes I have some preconcieved ideas about dustin browder coming over from C&C, I still dislike kespa faaar more than blizzard. So, in my eyes, go blizzard. Kick some ass!
Looks like you really hate the existence of E-Sports. Take off your KT Rolster tag and leave BW forums immediately! Sir.
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On October 08 2010 13:26 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:22 DyEnasTy wrote:
I dont understand this guys. I mean, up until now, everybody outside of korea hated kespa???
Now you think blizzard is the worse of the two evils? Not me. Even though Im very displeased with blizzard, and yes I have some preconcieved ideas about dustin browder coming over from C&C, I still dislike kespa faaar more than blizzard. So, in my eyes, go blizzard. Kick some ass! Looks like you really hate the existence of E-Sports. Take off your KT Rolster tag and leave BW forums immediately! Sir.
amen
blizzard is against all things e-sports
they want to bring back the pro scene to back to 1999/2000 era... no salaries... no teams... all a few tourneys that comprise of the whole scene.
GO KOREA, KEEP MY FAVORITE GAME ALIVE!
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If Korea loses this, E-Sports dies.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On October 08 2010 14:08 Diminotoor wrote:
If Korea loses this, E-Sports dies.
Yeah,that's not gonna happen since blizzard is afraid(terrified actually)of their fans.
Korea can beat blizzard any day and blizzard knows that....hopefully like MM's letter says they will continue to negotiate with the government and I hope they keep a pleasant tone next time
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On October 08 2010 13:36 Garaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:26 zenMaster wrote:On October 08 2010 13:22 DyEnasTy wrote:
I dont understand this guys. I mean, up until now, everybody outside of korea hated kespa???
Now you think blizzard is the worse of the two evils? Not me. Even though Im very displeased with blizzard, and yes I have some preconcieved ideas about dustin browder coming over from C&C, I still dislike kespa faaar more than blizzard. So, in my eyes, go blizzard. Kick some ass! Looks like you really hate the existence of E-Sports. Take off your KT Rolster tag and leave BW forums immediately! Sir. amen blizzard is against all things e-sports they want to bring back the pro scene to back to 1999/2000 era... no salaries... no teams... all a few tourneys that comprise of the whole scene. GO KOREA, KEEP MY FAVORITE GAME ALIVE!
Let's try not to get too spiteful here. There's plenty of topics about SC2 and Blizzard bashing already, the topic here is based on a quoted but no longer existing blog post. Not the foundation with which to go on an ostracization campaign.
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On October 08 2010 12:36 sAAvior wrote:Show nested quote +Blizzard doesn't need Korea or KeSPA. They have something much better -- money. LOL. If anything KeSPA has the money. You realize that all those progamers wearing clothes with fancy logos are paid regular salaries, train in sponsored hause, eat sponsored food and travel by sponsored means ? Also there are a lot of major tournaments in a year, all with decent prizes. Comparing to all this money in GSL is a joke, not even a joke. It's like completely different planet.
i just want to clarify that Kespa doesn't have shit.
It's the corporations in Korea that keeps pouring down the $$$ upon professional starcraft, and I'm pretty sure that Samsung, Hite, Oz, KTF, SK Telecom, and CJ has a more money combined than Activision Blizzard. And as long as Starcraft still have enough popularity in Korea (and elsewhere in the world) that investing in a team or sponsoring a league is still profitable, they will continue to do this. If you want to do this with SC2, then the game better be in a league of its own and be well known all over the world.
This is hard to be when you take in consideration that SCBW in itself was kind of a freak accident. Out of nowhere, a well-made game happens to be released during a time that a country (Korea) was becoming the most wired country in the world and is looking to show off its massive internet resources. Multiplayer spread like rampant, and from that foundation many Koreans players took the game in its infancy to what it is today. It took around 8 years.
Currently, SCII is rising fast in popularity as well, as you already see in the GSL. But its popularity as a professional e-sport game is only rising fast in Korea. Teamliquid and GGnet isn't the world, and chances are if you know about the GSL or proleague you already are a part of teamliquid or ggnet anyway, unless you're korean and you're too gosu to go here. SCII still needs star players to shine down their brilliance upon the game and show that it's a viable game for e-sport. And it takes time. If you take the professional scene of the game, in its infancy, away from a country that has shown the best growth in E-sport for almost a decade and field the best players in the genre right now, you are going to drown it in a pool of other big-name mmo that are already established in the foreign gaming scene. And then SCII will be too weak to warrant any serious sponsorship and that's gonna be it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 08 2010 13:03 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 08:10 zeppelin wrote:
this is why tae kwon do was devised 800 years ago. to kick mike morhaime off his high horse I just wanted to say, this was the best line ever in this thread and under appreciated. =)
I cant appreciate it given the fact that taekwondo isnt even a 100 years old ;/
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Finland588 Posts
I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations.
First of all, this whole debacle is based on blog post that has since been deleted. That blog post was based on one guys side of the story then rewritten as it was interpreted and THEN TRANSLATED. We might as well know nothing.
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. Esports is the only thing that made Starcraft so succesful. And theyre trying their hardest to make sc2 a succesful esports. Companies dont do anything out of spite, unless it benefits them and then it isnt even out of spite anymore. If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that.
Comparing IP rights of sports to SC is idiotic at best. Sports are concepts, not tangible products. Their creators have mostly been dead for 100+ years. Individuals hold theyre rights to IP generally for 50 years after their death. They also didnt reserve their right to it. Where as SC has music, game engine, stories, images etc. None of you would disputy the IP rights to these if theyd be sold or used individually. But suddenly, if you package them, those rights dissappear.
Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers...
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On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money.
e-sports =/= money, WoW = money.
If you give the producer of the game the complete control of the scene they can just shut it down to promote a new game. This is what they are doing to SC:BW now. But do we know that SCII is really a good game for e-sports? It will maybe be figured out in a year. So instead of having a naturally evolving pro scene, it is basically being used as a way of advertising the companys latest product. Blizzard doesn't give a damn about the entertainmant value of e-sports as long as it makes people buy the new game.
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On October 08 2010 19:15 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. e-sports =/= money, WoW = money. If you give the producer of the game the complete control of the scene they can just shut it down to promote a new game. This is what they are doing to SC:BW now. But do we know that SCII is really a good game for e-sports? It will maybe be figured out in a year. So instead of having a naturally evolving pro scene, it is basically being used as a way of advertising the companys latest product. Blizzard doesn't give a damn about the entertainmant value of e-sports as long as it makes people buy the new game.
Too bad most people have trouble realizing this. It's astonishing how many people are willfully ignorant to how things are.
Some people want to believe blizzard cares deeply about esports and is a completely honest company that only cares about it's fans, because that sorta belief is more pleasant for them to endure.
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Finland588 Posts
On October 08 2010 19:15 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. e-sports =/= money, WoW = money. If you give the producer of the game the complete control of the scene they can just shut it down to promote a new game. This is what they are doing to SC:BW now. But do we know that SCII is really a good game for e-sports? It will maybe be figured out in a year. So instead of having a naturally evolving pro scene, it is basically being used as a way of advertising the companys latest product. Blizzard doesn't give a damn about the entertainmant value of e-sports as long as it makes people buy the new game.
Well esports sells games, selling games = money so Id say esports = money. And Blizzard gives a big damn about esports entertainment value because again, that will make them money. But "unfortunately" they also have to make game that is fun for those that dont follow or care about esports. A bit like in WoW, changes in PvP changed PvE and Blizzard had to make both work as well as possible.
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On October 08 2010 19:34 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:15 Elroi wrote:On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. e-sports =/= money, WoW = money. If you give the producer of the game the complete control of the scene they can just shut it down to promote a new game. This is what they are doing to SC:BW now. But do we know that SCII is really a good game for e-sports? It will maybe be figured out in a year. So instead of having a naturally evolving pro scene, it is basically being used as a way of advertising the companys latest product. Blizzard doesn't give a damn about the entertainmant value of e-sports as long as it makes people buy the new game. Well esports sells games, selling games = money so Id say esports = money. And Blizzard gives a big damn about esports entertainment value because again, that will make them money. But "unfortunately" they also have to make game that is fun for those that dont follow or care about esports. A bit like in WoW, changes in PvP changed PvE and Blizzard had to make both work as well as possible.
so, you try to argue, that if they murder SC1 PL, they will help in developement of e-sport at all?
You must be kidding.
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Finland588 Posts
On October 08 2010 19:45 hitthat wrote:
so, you try to argue, that if they murder SC1 PL, they will help in developement of e-sport at all?
You must be kidding.
Like I said previously: " If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that."
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On October 08 2010 19:47 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:45 hitthat wrote:
so, you try to argue, that if they murder SC1 PL, they will help in developement of e-sport at all?
You must be kidding. Like I said previously: " If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that."
If you think that the only thing that should exist is that which brings the biggest profit for Blizzard, then I don't think this is the place for you.
E-sports is not a cash cow to milk but rather a part of Korean culture.
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Blizzard like most western companies think their rights extend past all overs. You can tell by their terms of service that say that the replays you have are theirs and the custom maps are theirs. Eastern philosophy is different (which is why they have a different ToS) so its partly resulting in this clash.
I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used?
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On  October 08 2010 20:16 illumination wrote:Blizzard like most western companies think their rights extend past all overs. You can tell by their terms of service that say that the replays you have are theirs and the custom maps are theirs. Eastern philosophy is different (which is why they have a different ToS) so its partly resulting in this clash. I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used?
According to Blizzard, it is. Some fans would even give Blizzard ownership of their souls if that was written in the terms of service.
Retarded indeed. Let the courts decide what is reasonable in the ToS. I hope the Gretech dogs lose.
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On October 08 2010 19:47 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:45 hitthat wrote:
so, you try to argue, that if they murder SC1 PL, they will help in developement of e-sport at all?
You must be kidding. Like I said previously: " If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that."
A company that turns it's back on old games that are part of why it was so successful, just to shove the latest model down your throat is not someone you should want controlling esports though.
If blizzard truly cared about ALL of their fans they would not even consider harming bw, they would present you with the options and let you decide.
Instead they are aggressively trying to force sc2 as bw's successor in every way shape or form and trying to stomp bw to death.
And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds.
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Finland588 Posts
On October 08 2010 20:08 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:47 bRuTaL!! wrote:On October 08 2010 19:45 hitthat wrote:
so, you try to argue, that if they murder SC1 PL, they will help in developement of e-sport at all?
You must be kidding. Like I said previously: " If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that." If you think that the only thing that should exist is that which brings the biggest profit for Blizzard, then I don't think this is the place for you. E-sports is not a cash cow to milk but rather a part of Korean culture.
Geez, its not about what I think or what my opinions are. Im talking about facts, whats going to happen and why. Not what I think SHOULD happen. These things Im mentioning are everyday events, happening all the time. It doesnt only apply to Blizzard but all companies and a lot to people too. I dont expect you to give me a phone and let me bill you for the expenses, so I dont think people should expect Blizzard give away free stuff that costing them money. Blizzard could have gone for the IP rights a lot ealier but didnt. If Blizzard was so greedy, then why only now? And if BW is popular enough, then theyll be able to offset the "damages" Bw does to SC2 and keep it alive. But, seeing how Sc2 is coming more popular, I dont think its gonna happen (this is an opinion).
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I don't know why so few people notice it. It is not a simply an argument between a company and a govenment. It is actually a battle between manufacture and custom rights. I pay the company and I created an exciting rep and the company has it without giving me a dam? That's simply not fair. I don't simply like KSPA or anything but I just want Blizzard to lose, because if they establish a bad example, more companies may follow and things could turn nasty for all of us.
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On October 08 2010 15:59 O-ops wrote:
i just want to clarify that Kespa doesn't have shit.
It's the corporations in Korea that keeps pouring down the $$$ upon professional starcraft, and I'm pretty sure that Samsung, Hite, Oz, KTF, SK Telecom, and CJ has a more money combined than Activision Blizzard. And as long as Starcraft still have enough popularity in Korea (and elsewhere in the world) that investing in a team or sponsoring a league is still profitable, they will continue to do this. If you want to do this with SC2, then the game better be in a league of its own and be well known all over the world.
I dunno how many times this has to be pointed out but the corporations are KeSPA.
Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers...
The problem is worse in SC2 though. There's only one tournament with good prize money and nothing else. So how much are the gamers outside of the top 10 earning in SC2?
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Why are people talking about GSL going overseas? SC2 isn't going anywhere, this dispute is about BW. Blizzard got complete control over SC2 since it's played over battle.net - only way KeSPA could get in on SC2 would be through cracked private servers and good luck with that.
There will be a healthy SC2 scene in Korea whatever happens between Gretech and KeSPA.
Anyway I can't believe how many people are buying this bit of 'news'. But if it's on the internet then I guess it must be true!
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On October 08 2010 20:30 robertdinh wrote:
And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds.
I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings?
Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other.
Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this.
I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW.
I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words.
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On October 08 2010 21:33 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 20:30 robertdinh wrote:
And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds. I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings? Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other. Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this. I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW. I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words.
It doesn't benefit any BW fan if BW is forced to move to non-primetime slots so that sc2 can have it's way.
If you honestly think blizzard didn't want bw airing at the same time as sc2 because they wanted to give the fans more variety then I can't help ya.
They only did it because bw is more popular than sc2, and they want sc2 to succeed even at bw's expense.
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On October 08 2010 21:33 Longshank wrote:
Why are people talking about GSL going overseas? SC2 isn't going anywhere, this dispute is about BW. Blizzard got complete control over SC2 since it's played over battle.net - only way KeSPA could get in on SC2 would be through cracked private servers and good luck with that.
There will be a healthy SC2 scene in Korea whatever happens between Gretech and KeSPA.
Anyway I can't believe how many people are buying this bit of 'news'. But if it's on the internet then I guess it must be true!
The Korean government could ban all sc2 tournies. That's why GSl might go overseas if they don't come to an agreement with BW rights.
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On October 08 2010 21:52 wiesel wrote:
The Korean government could ban all sc2 tournies. That's why GSl might go overseas if they don't come to an agreement with BW rights.
What? How could they do that? If they don't come to an agreement that means KeSPA will continue with BW as before, why on earth would or even could they ban all SC2 tournaments? Please elaborate or post a source.
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On October 08 2010 22:20 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 21:52 wiesel wrote:
The Korean government could ban all sc2 tournies. That's why GSl might go overseas if they don't come to an agreement with BW rights. What? How could they do that? If they don't come to an agreement that means KeSPA will continue with BW as before, why on earth would or even could they ban all SC2 tournaments? Please elaborate or post a source.
I think when people is refering about taking GSL overseas is because of some sentence in the OP that implied that Blizzard is thinking about it if they dont have an agreement with the Korea government about all the issues that we have been talking about, .
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Uh i was just speculating based on the OP. If they don't come to an agreement Kespa is going to court and continuing all leagues even without permission that's what i read. Kespa seems to have some government backup. So they could threaten gretech/blizzard with the overall ban of sc2 in korea if they don't get the IP for Broodwar, for example. But well only speculating
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On October 08 2010 21:33 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 20:30 robertdinh wrote:
And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds. I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings? Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other. Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this. I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW. I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words.
Nice attempt at spinning what is obviously a bullshit move "Gretech: TAKE PROLEAGUE OFF PRIMETIME SLOTS THATS FOR GSL." into something beneficially to viewers "choice".
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Blizzard, what an inconvenience you can be
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On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations.
First of all, this whole debacle is based on blog post that has since been deleted. That blog post was based on one guys side of the story then rewritten as it was interpreted and THEN TRANSLATED. We might as well know nothing.
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. Esports is the only thing that made Starcraft so succesful. And theyre trying their hardest to make sc2 a succesful esports. Companies dont do anything out of spite, unless it benefits them and then it isnt even out of spite anymore. If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that.
Comparing IP rights of sports to SC is idiotic at best. Sports are concepts, not tangible products. Their creators have mostly been dead for 100+ years. Individuals hold theyre rights to IP generally for 50 years after their death. They also didnt reserve their right to it. Where as SC has music, game engine, stories, images etc. None of you would disputy the IP rights to these if theyd be sold or used individually. But suddenly, if you package them, those rights dissappear.
Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers...
this is why i can't stand sc2 fans who dont know crap.
blizzard only loves esports as long as they don't have to do anything (gretech is carrying out their will) and it helps them sell THEIR CURRENT GAME. they don't care for developing a long term scene. they just need it to promote one game and move on to the next. having a healthy BW scene exeplifies that games are not just fads, that a good game can be a vehicle for continual investment for corporations and legitamizes esports.
so, basically, you are saying that when you watch a great game in bw (i'm not even sure you have watched one, but who knows), it is blizzard that is creating such a thing of beauty? i mean if you look at a virtuoso pianist, they are playing on a piano (bought and paid for, but made by steinway or other companies) but the company who made the piano should own the music and recording rights of albums due to the fact it was on THERE piano that they SOLD to whoever? it isn't the instrument that is creating such great music, just like in BW, it isn't the game producing the epic games, it is the skill and craft of the players themselves. go watch BW between two sc2 noobs and tell me the game is so great to watch, blizzard is the reason why it's so great. no, it's the players creative skill that results in the epicness.
BW is not breaking down. sure they lost a sponsor, and a few OVER THE HILL players, but on the most part, the scene is still strong. people still watch the games. companies are still willing to invest in it. you talk about how GSL over the span of a year is a 2million dollar prize pool. how much is the BW scene costing them? 6-8 major tournaments, proleague finals, proleague mini finals throughout the season, renting out the venues, playing almost every other night, paying salaries of countless players, (you really don't expect ppl like hiya to not get paid do you? or are you just that naiive) , prize pools, traveling cost, living expenses, food expenses, annual trips for the teams, etc etc etc etc etc.
it trumps all that GSL is doing for the scene.
no, blizzard/activition are fools if they think they can take GSL out of the korea. there are not enough ppl willing to sponsor a tournament like that, RTS just aint popular in the west, not enough for corporations to pay for advertisements on TV.
blizzard aint willing to build up an esports scene. all they care about is hype, and that ppl buy the games. they will do the bare minimum to do so, which is creating ONE LEAGUE via PROXY, but if it aint meant to be, they will pull the plug faster than anyone.
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if they shut down bw, i hope out of spite they ban sc2 in korea.
it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market
how sweet would it be =)
this is regarding to weisels post
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On October 09 2010 00:28 Garaman wrote:
if they shut down bw, i hope out of spite they ban sc2 in korea.
it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market
how sweet would it be =)
this is regarding to weisels post
It wouldn't be sweet at all. Then we'd have NOTHING from Korea. I'm sorry but as much as I want BW to stay around so I can still enjoy Proleague, OSL and MSL, simultaneously killing SC2's presence in Korea along with the death of BW would be the worst possible thing to happen for the fans overall. Revenge is usually never as satisfying as people think it to be in my opinion.
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On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations.
First of all, this whole debacle is based on blog post that has since been deleted. That blog post was based on one guys side of the story then rewritten as it was interpreted and THEN TRANSLATED. We might as well know nothing.
Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. Esports is the only thing that made Starcraft so succesful. And theyre trying their hardest to make sc2 a succesful esports. Companies dont do anything out of spite, unless it benefits them and then it isnt even out of spite anymore. If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that.
Comparing IP rights of sports to SC is idiotic at best. Sports are concepts, not tangible products. Their creators have mostly been dead for 100+ years. Individuals hold theyre rights to IP generally for 50 years after their death. They also didnt reserve their right to it. Where as SC has music, game engine, stories, images etc. None of you would disputy the IP rights to these if theyd be sold or used individually. But suddenly, if you package them, those rights dissappear.
Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers...
Bwhahaha.
Sorry I couldn't help it. Funniest thing I've read in a while.
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On October 09 2010 00:37 LuciD` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 00:28 Garaman wrote:
if they shut down bw, i hope out of spite they ban sc2 in korea.
it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market
how sweet would it be =)
this is regarding to weisels post It wouldn't be sweet at all. Then we'd have NOTHING from Korea. I'm sorry but as much as I want BW to stay around so I can still enjoy Proleague, OSL and MSL, simultaneously killing SC2's presence in Korea along with the death of BW would be the worst possible thing to happen for the fans overall. Revenge is usually never as satisfying as people think it to be in my opinion.
For me, if BW goes, I'm done. I tried watching GSL but it's just not enjoyable so even if BW goes, I won't be watching SC2. I'll just find another hobby.
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On October 09 2010 00:28 Garaman wrote:
if they shut down bw, i hope out of spite they ban sc2 in korea.
it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market
how sweet would it be =)
this is regarding to weisels post
This isn't china, we don't ban shit out of spite.
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Why is the government even talking to Blizzard? To get them to rip their broadcasting right contract with Gretech?
The government obviously won't do anything bad to blizzard and affect future trade with foreign companies. Personally, I think korea should just make a new class of product called 'e-sport applications', if a game reaches certain popularity, the developers can reclassify their product as an 'esport application' which gives korean broadcasters/tournament organizers free right to use and in return, the developers get perks like tax breaks and other advantages. I didn't take law, so i dunno how viable that would be but it sounds good on paper as it gives developers incentives to give free of use. :-).
Right now, I find it interesting that people negotiating rather 'starve' than to eat a smaller quantity. So what if you can't broadcast at the same time as GSL? At least you are broadcasting and still making some money. Ah well, that's Asian culture for you.
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On October 07 2010 22:06 0neder wrote:
Well, Morhaime is right, and Kespa should acknowledge the law/rules, but they don't, so we have to deal with it as is.
What if the law makes no sense AT ALL?
Im questioning the core basis of Intellectual Property rights right now
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Finland588 Posts
On October 09 2010 00:22 Garaman wrote:
this is why i can't stand sc2 fans who dont know crap.
blizzard only loves esports as long as they don't have to do anything (gretech is carrying out their will) and it helps them sell THEIR CURRENT GAME. they don't care for developing a long term scene. they just need it to promote one game and move on to the next. having a healthy BW scene exeplifies that games are not just fads, that a good game can be a vehicle for continual investment for corporations and legitamizes esports.
I disagree, Blizzard is one of the few developers that think about theyre games on a longterm (longterm for games anyway) base. Its why they are so succesful. Its been like 12 years since BW came out. WoW for 6? Diablo and Warcraft-series. All have been out for 7+ years. They develop games as long as it takes to make them monster hits before releasing them. Starcraft 2 is better for sponsors anyway since so many of them are hardware manufacturers, hard to sell your product to people that dont need it. I do agree however that "a healthy BW scene exeplifies that games are not just fads..." and that Blizzard is intrested in esports to sell their games (like saying Im intrested in a job because I get a salary, doh).
On October 09 2010 00:22 Garaman wrote:
so, basically, you are saying that when you watch a great game in bw (i'm not even sure you have watched one, but who knows), it is blizzard that is creating such a thing of beauty? i mean if you look at a virtuoso pianist, they are playing on a piano (bought and paid for, but made by steinway or other companies) but the company who made the piano should own the music and recording rights of albums due to the fact it was on THERE piano that they SOLD to whoever? it isn't the instrument that is creating such great music, just like in BW, it isn't the game producing the epic games, it is the skill and craft of the players themselves. go watch BW between two sc2 noobs and tell me the game is so great to watch, blizzard is the reason why it's so great. no, it's the players creative skill that results in the epicness.
I believe BW had a EULA where they reserved the rights and only sold you a license to play, you do not own the game itself. Where as the piano is completely and undenyably yours. With BW you only have a license. And again, this not my OPINION, it is a fact. Whether I think its right or not, this is how its and its the same for most intangible products, like movies, other games, music etc. You are allowed to listen to it or whatever but without proper permission not use it for commercial purposes.
On October 09 2010 00:22 Garaman wrote:
BW is not breaking down. sure they lost a sponsor, and a few OVER THE HILL players, but on the most part, the scene is still strong. people still watch the games. companies are still willing to invest in it. you talk about how GSL over the span of a year is a 2million dollar prize pool. how much is the BW scene costing them? 6-8 major tournaments, proleague finals, proleague mini finals throughout the season, renting out the venues, playing almost every other night, paying salaries of countless players, (you really don't expect ppl like hiya to not get paid do you? or are you just that naiive) , prize pools, traveling cost, living expenses, food expenses, annual trips for the teams, etc etc etc etc etc.
it trumps all that GSL is doing for the scene.
no, blizzard/activition are fools if they think they can take GSL out of the korea. there are not enough ppl willing to sponsor a tournament like that, RTS just aint popular in the west, not enough for corporations to pay for advertisements on TV.
blizzard aint willing to build up an esports scene. all they care about is hype, and that ppl buy the games. they will do the bare minimum to do so, which is creating ONE LEAGUE via PROXY, but if it aint meant to be, they will pull the plug faster than anyone.
I dont think it would be impossible for BW to survive. At first I thought it might happen by 2011 fall but now it looks to be happening more quickly. Im most suprised about how quickly players like Boxer, NaDa and Moon have "jumped ship". When leaving BW achieves "Critical Mass" (trademarked by me, Ill sue if you quote this!!!) itll go quite quickly. As long as players trust that there will be a next season, BW is relatively safe. Sc2 is like US during gold rush, nothing guaranteed but you have a chance to do something great. Those who have it good dont go, those who want to risk it will. Many SC2 are all ready being paid a salary thought the salaries are far from BWs as well as their expenses paid.
And I dont think GSL will be going anywhere. Its a HUGE success. 6000-10 000 ($120 000- 200 000 total) westerners paying $20 bucks for a season as well as sponsors like Intel and TG Sambo for a first season and now everything is probably going to more than double for the next season. 2500 players of which 250 foreigners, signed up for the prelims.
On October 09 2010 01:21 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote:
I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations.
In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. Bwhahaha. Sorry I couldn't help it. Funniest thing I've read in a while.
Facts amuse you? You DO know that the best 32 players of the first 3 GSL Opens will be Code S players and 33-96th will be Code A players? Nothing to do wtih BW... If you did, oookay then.
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To be honest, the article is just so hilariously obviously untrue it's not even funny. The OP not to blame of course, he just posted it, but anyone who ever met Mike Morhaime, and knows them longer then just a talk know that's not a screamy kind of person at all. That he's calm and subtle.
Bob Kotick is more likely to say somehting like this, but not Mike, not him. The article sounds like a boring uninteresting conversation turned into something more exciting to read.
Second, unless the minister is completely incompotent, even if Mike Morhaime acted like that (good lord, Mike must have the worst day of his life, fallen out of bed, realized his toothpaste is empty, the breakfast made him throw up, got a call of a friend beaten down and ended up in a hospital, lost his wallet, got kicked in the nuts by a Korean gangster and tripped over his shoelaces in front of the goverment building) the minister would never react is such a way, a politician is usually alot more subtle.
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10387 Posts
On October 09 2010 03:01 Seiniyta wrote:
To be honest, the article is just so hilariously obviously untrue it's not even funny. The OP not to blame of course, he just posted it, but anyone who ever met Mike Morhaime, and knows them longer then just a talk know that's not a screamy kind of person at all. That he's calm and subtle.
Bob Kotick is more likely to say somehting like this, but not Mike, not him. The article sounds like a boring uninteresting conversation turned into something more exciting to read.
Second, unless the minister is completely incompotent, even if Mike Morhaime acted like that (good lord, Mike must have the worst day of his life, fallen out of bed, realized his toothpaste is empty, the breakfast made him throw up, got a call of a friend beaten down and ended up in a hospital, lost his wallet, got kicked in the nuts by a Korean gangster and tripped over his shoelaces in front of the goverment building) the minister would never react is such a way, a politician is usually alot more subtle.
To be honest, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Just to remind bRuTaL (great name btw), they did abandon sc:bw long time ago, neither they did dog shit to progress e-sports of that game. Now they see that it makes money, so its good to go for the cup, when there is food in it.
Sadly mostly everyone thinks that sc:bw fans want sc2 to fail miserably, even if I would be classified as one, I don't give crap about sc2, just let BW stay alive and don't interfere things you have not made.
If you watch what Blizzard has achieved in few years, its simple. Micropayments on games, monthly fees for everything, also they have made new standards on rights agreements. Setting standards for additional content is also something they basicly are amazing at.
Blizzard is not evil company at all, even biggest companys can make wrong or bad decisions.
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Finland588 Posts
Yeah, Blizzard didnt do anything to make BW an esports. But they also never went for their IP rights even when they saw how huge it had become until it was harming their business directly.
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On October 09 2010 03:22 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Yeah, Blizzard didnt do anything to make BW an esports. But they also never went for their IP rights even when they saw how huge it had become until it was harming their business directly.
Harming? It made SC2 an instant best seller even though its quality is at best questionable...
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On October 09 2010 02:55 bRuTaL!! wrote:
And I dont think GSL will be going anywhere. Its a HUGE success. 6000-10 000 ($120 000- 200 000 total) westerners paying $20 bucks for a season as well as sponsors like Intel and TG Sambo for a first season and now everything is probably going to more than double for the next season. 2500 players of which 250 foreigners, signed up for the prelims.
for how long? 2 or 3 years and than be foragone like that of WC3 and stuff?
Did you even watch the "golden age" of e-sport in europe few years ago? When the games were directly sponsored by some companies untill get to old and than be left? Without true proscene even your beloved SC2 will be forgotten as quick as it get older.
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Finland588 Posts
On October 09 2010 03:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 03:22 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Yeah, Blizzard didnt do anything to make BW an esports. But they also never went for their IP rights even when they saw how huge it had become until it was harming their business directly. Harming? It made SC2 an instant best seller even though its quality is at best questionable...
BW had little to do with the succes of SC2, if you dont count the concept. Id say 95% of people that bought Sc2 never played broodwar (at least outside of Korea)...
On October 09 2010 03:30 hitthat wrote:
for how long? 2 or 3 years and than be foragone like that of WC3 and stuff?
Did you even watch the "golden age" of e-sport in europe few years ago? When the games were directly sponsored by some companies untill get to old and than be left? Without true proscene even your beloved SC2 will be forgotten as quick as it get older.
Counter-Strike is still doing pretty well and yes, I did watch. Have you seen ESL events?
IEM World Championship photo
IEM World Championship photo 2
Doing pretty damn well Id say. 1,200,000 active users and a strong footing especially in Germany. Not quite at the Korean level yet thought. How long will SC2 last? Who knows, I bet BW players in early 2000 didnt think it would still be played 2010.
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On October 09 2010 03:50 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 03:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 09 2010 03:22 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Yeah, Blizzard didnt do anything to make BW an esports. But they also never went for their IP rights even when they saw how huge it had become until it was harming their business directly. Harming? It made SC2 an instant best seller even though its quality is at best questionable... BW had very little to do witht the succes of SC2, if you dont count the concept. Id say 95% of people that bought Sc2 never played broodwar...
95%? Source or im forced to believe that you just pulled the number out of ur ass to make it sound factual.
1/ If 10 years worth of hours/day advertisement on primetime slot on multiple TV channel (not to mention internet fan + hype) matters so little.. Why are companies paying so much for mere minutes of ads?
2/ If Brood War's fanbase is so insignificant, why is Blizz trying so hard to make sure that they dont have to compete with Brood War during their airtime? Since the amount of people that favors BW over their beloved SC2 would be insignificant anw?
3/ Last but not least all of those casuals buyers will be the first ones to ditch your beloved SC2 when the next shiny thing come out.
Generally, please note that through WC3: Reign of Chaos, WC3: The Frozen Throne and WoW.. Blizz have shown us time and again that the perfect balance that they created in Brood War was an obvious fluke (bugs that contributed to gameplay, making it balance).. And until another game has proven itself fully, i see no reason to believe that a miracle can happen again.
"Give it 10 years and it will prove to be better" just isnt good enough.. Age of Empire wasnt, Warcraft 3 wasnt, Red Alert wasnt, Pokemon wasnt ( :p ).. Why would SC2 be any different?
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On October 08 2010 20:16 illumination wrote:
Blizzard like most western companies think their rights extend past all overs. You can tell by their terms of service that say that the replays you have are theirs and the custom maps are theirs. Eastern philosophy is different (which is why they have a different ToS) so its partly resulting in this clash.
I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used?
But you could argue the same point about Kespa. They are insanely exclusive of their players, and not wanting foreign players in. Look at how hard the progamers are treated with work schedules, living arrangements, ect. Isnt that kind of attitude the same blizzard is presenting? ie: monopoly on everything in the competitive scene of SC?
And to the poster who told me to take off my KT Rolster badge: I will if it means Flash and other progamers will be out from under kespa, and playing internationally.
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On October 08 2010 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:03 KissBlade wrote:On October 08 2010 08:10 zeppelin wrote:
this is why tae kwon do was devised 800 years ago. to kick mike morhaime off his high horse I just wanted to say, this was the best line ever in this thread and under appreciated. =) I cant appreciate it given the fact that taekwondo isnt even a 100 years old ;/
that's the joke, shitty TKD dojos exaggerate the hell out of how old it is to make it seem more mystical and appealing for the parents of five year olds
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On October 09 2010 04:45 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 20:16 illumination wrote:
Blizzard like most western companies think their rights extend past all overs. You can tell by their terms of service that say that the replays you have are theirs and the custom maps are theirs. Eastern philosophy is different (which is why they have a different ToS) so its partly resulting in this clash.
I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used? But you could argue the same point about Kespa. They are insanely exclusive of their players, and not wanting foreign players in. Look at how hard the progamers are treated with work schedules, living arrangements, ect. Isnt that kind of attitude the same blizzard is presenting? ie: monopoly on everything in the competitive scene of SC? And to the poster who told me to take off my KT Rolster badge: I will if it means Flash and other progamers will be out from under kespa, and playing internationally.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I believe the only thing thats keeping foreigner from entering the proscene in Korea is that their skill just isnt enough. And must teams allowed low-skilled players into their team just because they are foreigners?
Now you are claiming that their work schedules and their living arrangement is terrible? How so? Training 8-10 hours a day is considered optimal, any additional training is done under a player's own volition if they want to improve their skill. And maybe you can further elaborate on how their living condition is bad? And before you start on bunk bed and sharing a room with another person, no thats not terrible, that is just fine for people our age.. Half the people in my university live the same way (school hostel or renting places outside n sharing with friends).
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Finland588 Posts
On October 09 2010 04:21 ffreakk wrote:
95%? Source or im forced to believe that you just pulled the number out of ur ass to make it sound factual.
1/ If 10 years worth of hours/day advertisement on primetime slot on multiple TV channel (not to mention internet fan + hype) matters so little.. Why are companies paying so much for mere minutes of ads?
2/ If Brood War's fanbase is so insignificant, why is Blizz trying so hard to make sure that they dont have to compete with Brood War during their airtime? Since the amount of people that favors BW over their beloved SC2 would be insignificant anw?
3/ Last but not least all of those casuals buyers will be the first ones to ditch your beloved SC2 when the next shiny thing come out.
Generally, please note that through WC3: Reign of Chaos, WC3: The Frozen Throne and WoW.. Blizz have shown us time and again that the perfect balance that they created in Brood War was an obvious fluke (bugs that contributed to gameplay, making it balance).. And until another game has proven itself fully, i see no reason to believe that a miracle can happen again.
"Give it 10 years and it will prove to be better" just isnt good enough.. Age of Empire wasnt, Warcraft 3 wasnt, Red Alert wasnt, Pokemon wasnt ( :p ).. Why would SC2 be any different?
I pulled that number out of my ass. I dont know what the specific percent is but it pretty darn high. And I bet that a large amount of those that has played BW didnt decide to buy SC2 on BWs merits. About 1. and 2., really Korea specific, I dont dispute those points within Koreas market. Doesnt apply to rest of the world. 3. true but you also need those casuals and the only way to get a lot of hardcore and loyal fans is to get a lot of casuals first.
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as pretty as sc2 is, id say bw is where the skill and best viewing is at
On October 09 2010 05:39 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 04:21 ffreakk wrote:
95%? Source or im forced to believe that you just pulled the number out of ur ass to make it sound factual.
1/ If 10 years worth of hours/day advertisement on primetime slot on multiple TV channel (not to mention internet fan + hype) matters so little.. Why are companies paying so much for mere minutes of ads?
2/ If Brood War's fanbase is so insignificant, why is Blizz trying so hard to make sure that they dont have to compete with Brood War during their airtime? Since the amount of people that favors BW over their beloved SC2 would be insignificant anw?
3/ Last but not least all of those casuals buyers will be the first ones to ditch your beloved SC2 when the next shiny thing come out.
Generally, please note that through WC3: Reign of Chaos, WC3: The Frozen Throne and WoW.. Blizz have shown us time and again that the perfect balance that they created in Brood War was an obvious fluke (bugs that contributed to gameplay, making it balance).. And until another game has proven itself fully, i see no reason to believe that a miracle can happen again.
"Give it 10 years and it will prove to be better" just isnt good enough.. Age of Empire wasnt, Warcraft 3 wasnt, Red Alert wasnt, Pokemon wasnt ( :p ).. Why would SC2 be any different? I pulled that number out of my ass. I dont know what the specific percent is but it pretty darn high. And I bet that a large amount of those that has played BW didnt decide to buy SC2 on BWs merits. About 1. and 2., really Korea specific, I dont dispute those points within Koreas market. Doesnt apply to rest of the world. 3. true but you also need those casuals and the only way to get a lot of hardcore and loyal fans is to get a lot of casuals first.
of the people i know that play sc2, maybe half at most never played sc bw, and i know quite a few who havent got sc2
theres alot of new players but its not overwhelming, most people played bw at some point over 12 years
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On October 09 2010 05:39 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 04:21 ffreakk wrote:
95%? Source or im forced to believe that you just pulled the number out of ur ass to make it sound factual.
1/ If 10 years worth of hours/day advertisement on primetime slot on multiple TV channel (not to mention internet fan + hype) matters so little.. Why are companies paying so much for mere minutes of ads?
2/ If Brood War's fanbase is so insignificant, why is Blizz trying so hard to make sure that they dont have to compete with Brood War during their airtime? Since the amount of people that favors BW over their beloved SC2 would be insignificant anw?
3/ Last but not least all of those casuals buyers will be the first ones to ditch your beloved SC2 when the next shiny thing come out.
Generally, please note that through WC3: Reign of Chaos, WC3: The Frozen Throne and WoW.. Blizz have shown us time and again that the perfect balance that they created in Brood War was an obvious fluke (bugs that contributed to gameplay, making it balance).. And until another game has proven itself fully, i see no reason to believe that a miracle can happen again.
"Give it 10 years and it will prove to be better" just isnt good enough.. Age of Empire wasnt, Warcraft 3 wasnt, Red Alert wasnt, Pokemon wasnt ( :p ).. Why would SC2 be any different? I pulled that number out of my ass. I dont know what the specific percent is but it pretty darn high. And I bet that a large amount of those that has played BW didnt decide to buy SC2 on BWs merits. About 1. and 2., really Korea specific, I dont dispute those points within Koreas market. Doesnt apply to rest of the world. 3. true but you also need those casuals and the only way to get a lot of hardcore and loyal fans is to get a lot of casuals first.
If you heard of "Starcraft", you probably had your interest piqued when "Starcraft 2" was mentioned. Go figure. Sorry but I flat-out disagree based on the fact that with even the slightest bit of knowledge on how humans function, that doesn't make sense to have Starcraft 2 players completely never to have heard of Starcraft.
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On October 09 2010 05:39 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 04:21 ffreakk wrote:
95%? Source or im forced to believe that you just pulled the number out of ur ass to make it sound factual.
1/ If 10 years worth of hours/day advertisement on primetime slot on multiple TV channel (not to mention internet fan + hype) matters so little.. Why are companies paying so much for mere minutes of ads?
2/ If Brood War's fanbase is so insignificant, why is Blizz trying so hard to make sure that they dont have to compete with Brood War during their airtime? Since the amount of people that favors BW over their beloved SC2 would be insignificant anw?
3/ Last but not least all of those casuals buyers will be the first ones to ditch your beloved SC2 when the next shiny thing come out.
Generally, please note that through WC3: Reign of Chaos, WC3: The Frozen Throne and WoW.. Blizz have shown us time and again that the perfect balance that they created in Brood War was an obvious fluke (bugs that contributed to gameplay, making it balance).. And until another game has proven itself fully, i see no reason to believe that a miracle can happen again.
"Give it 10 years and it will prove to be better" just isnt good enough.. Age of Empire wasnt, Warcraft 3 wasnt, Red Alert wasnt, Pokemon wasnt ( :p ).. Why would SC2 be any different? I pulled that number out of my ass. I dont know what the specific percent is but it pretty darn high. And I bet that a large amount of those that has played BW didnt decide to buy SC2 on BWs merits. About 1. and 2., really Korea specific, I dont dispute those points within Koreas market. Doesnt apply to rest of the world. 3. true but you also need those casuals and the only way to get a lot of hardcore and loyal fans is to get a lot of casuals first.
Seriously, you don't care about E-Sports(The real one that Kespa created) so I don't know what you're trying to accomplish in here. Either put up real statistics with reliable sources or stop trying to make us support your beloved angel Blizzard with nonsense pulled out of your ass.
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On October 09 2010 03:50 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 03:24 maybenexttime wrote:On October 09 2010 03:22 bRuTaL!! wrote:
Yeah, Blizzard didnt do anything to make BW an esports. But they also never went for their IP rights even when they saw how huge it had become until it was harming their business directly. Harming? It made SC2 an instant best seller even though its quality is at best questionable... BW had little to do with the succes of SC2, if you dont count the concept. Id say 95% of people that bought Sc2 never played broodwar (at least outside of Korea)... Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 03:30 hitthat wrote:
for how long? 2 or 3 years and than be foragone like that of WC3 and stuff?
Did you even watch the "golden age" of e-sport in europe few years ago? When the games were directly sponsored by some companies untill get to old and than be left? Without true proscene even your beloved SC2 will be forgotten as quick as it get older.
Counter-Strike is still doing pretty well and yes, I did watch. Have you seen ESL events? IEM World Championship photoIEM World Championship photo 2Doing pretty damn well Id say. 1,200,000 active users and a strong footing especially in Germany. Not quite at the Korean level yet thought. How long will SC2 last? Who knows, I bet BW players in early 2000 didnt think it would still be played 2010.
lol oh guy you are showing us that your pseudo intellectual posts are just things that you pull out of your ass, you assume everything about everything, seriously do you really think that SC2 selling is not about SC being the only RTS so succesful that has a pro scene, if is that then you know nothing about marketing (and for your posts about other things too).
User was temp banned for this post.
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From the looks of things, is there a possibility that Korean Government will tell KeSPA, OGN, and MBC that they can continue operation without Blizzard's approval? If they're upsetting government this much, I don't see how Blizzard will be able to enforce their rules if the Korean Government is unwilling to uphold them.
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yeah all those virtual fights and such might be nice but imho the reality is never so dramatic and in the end they will solve this in a very lame way and everyone will be "happy", happy as all sides will have ensure their profit.
That's why there is really no reason to take sides and have harsh feelings with each other. Money talk here.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
to ME This seems like a publicity stunt so that readers can look at some juicy shit and claim that there is a lot of drama going on.
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I am seeing a lot of anti-blizzard posts here about blizzard having some part in the esports arena in s.korea. I'm confused about all of this. Why shouldn't they get some money from the esports area? I'm not trying to troll or anything but could someone open my eyes up to why this is such a bad thing if blizzard wins this? Isn't it a good thing that blizzard is trying to participate in esports at all?
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@ TrialanError
This issue has been addressed before so i wont go into the details again.
But check out the Blizz's model of E-Sport (all controlled by Blizz's server, no LAN latency, chargable VoDs/streams, all custom maps n replays under their possession, no Pro teams, no stable jobs for gamers).. Now compare it with what we have now (many people getting stable salary, free viewership on live matches and VoDs).. You will likely be able to clearly see why Blizz's participation in E-Sport (assuming they keep their current model) is undesirable..
Most people (esp SC2 people) usually miss out on how important LAN latency is. Assuming they somehow manage to raise the skill cap, with B-net latency, superhuman split-second reaction will never be possible (read no REALLY skillful play is possible at all).
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I like the USA bashing in this thread by residents of the USA... It's like we all realize our nation is going to Hell in a hand-basket.
It sounds to me (I'm an engineer, not a paralegal- so take this with a grain of salt) that:
If it goes to the courts at all it will all depend upon where it is judged, rather than the content of the case. If it gets tried in the US, it will come down to intellectual property; if it gets tried anywhere else in the world, it will make the US look like the government is defending a megalomaniac corporation and probably end up in an antitrust suit.
While doing some reading on this topic, I found this:
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/05/28/blizzard-dumps-kespa-signs-gomtv
Basically, the article talks about how GomTV is the new KeSPA in Blizzard's eyes- which isn't rightly a fair comparison. The fact that Blizzard has such an exclusive licensing process makes KeSPA look like the bad guys. As far as antitrust goes, KeSPA could easily win that if it is presented that way in court- even in the US... Blizzard is monopolizing internet traffic to make money from a partnership with GomTV after Blizzard became dissatisfied with KeSPA.
However, if KeSPA were to win that case- nobody would EVER have to cry about GomTV filing copyright claims on YouTube videos or user-streamed content.
It could also snowball into something much worse, though. Form of, Blizz dropping support for the game early- but we all know Kotick is in it for the money and would never do that...
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ur article... May 28, 2010
nothign new...
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oh, I see where that would be a problem then. Thank you ffreakk
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On October 09 2010 15:31 rasers wrote:
ur article... May 28, 2010
nothign new...
I never said it was new. I was using it as a reference for my statement.
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Canada11297 Posts
I don't understand how anti-trust laws would be involved. Blizzard isn't providing internet service let alone the only internet service in Korea. They're providing the game and controlling where and how it's shown (similar to movies or music or books). How is use of internet bandwidth considered a monopoly?
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I don't believe how the head of a multi-national company with so much to lose on the line if they lose SK, would say things like that and be disrespectful against the Korean Minister. I don't believe this is true at all. The guy is the CEO of a company, he would act in a manner that wouldn't hurt his company at the first place, I'm sure they're educated about how to communicate best with leaders etc. too. So I don't believe that this is what happened.
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I had thought along the same line before. But fact is that most of us have no idea how top-end people communicate which each other in private. I mean i know they all appear subtle and sophisticated in public, but thats public, it might be different when there are no commoners around to scrutinise their mannerism.
Then there was some guy several pages back who said that he participated in some meetings between top government officials in his country, and the scenario painted in the OP is not unlikely at all, so im giving it some trust, esp when Milkis said that this guy is rather reliable.
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It's fine. If korea wants to play the political game then they can. I hope they have some corrupt judges rule against IP rights. Then all US companies will boycott korea and they will cry like little bitches.
The rules - international law, exists for a reason.
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It's fine. If korea wants to play the political game then they can. I hope they have some corrupt judges rule against IP rights. Then all US companies will boycott korea and they will cry like little bitches.
The rules - international law, exists for a reason.
Good joke. hehe
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Canada2480 Posts
so when is proleague supposed to start btw?
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On October 10 2010 02:46 swanized wrote:
so when is proleague supposed to start btw?
October 16.
Pretty much exactly a week from today.
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So now Koreans will have to come here to play, instead of the other way around?
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I don't understand why you people don't like the idea of Blizz getting paid for Broadcast games or tournaments. I don't see Paramount pictures, Dreamworks, or other movie company let their movies be played in a Theater without getting any money. Sure they don't own the movie theater or the cable company i.e Directv, but you can't just let them grab your stuff and say, I'm just gonna take your property, play it and don't give you anything i.e Piracy. Blizzard is already collaborating with them given the fact they can play sc2 for free basically. Now wheres the Korean gratitude and collaboration? I'm not completely in favor of blizzard, but I'm not completely against them as most of you are. KeSpA already offered them money which is the right thing to do, and blizz didn't accept it. They must have their reasons! Some things in huge company organizations are just beyond of ourselves to understand. Maybe those millions were not enough in an estimate done by blizz maybe there's more to that, we don't know! Personally I would have accepted those millions as blizz just for the mere attempt to better relations over there, even though compensation might not be ideal.
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Spinel720,
Honestly do you think that people are intrested in watching 12 year old artwork and listening same music every day?
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On October 10 2010 03:17 Borknagarush wrote:
Spinel720,
Honestly do you think that people are intrested in watching 12 year old artwork and listening same music every day?
Sc1 music kicks over Sc2 anytime. That point is irrefutable. And i'm interested, as many others, to see 12 years old sprites making magic on the screen.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 10 2010 03:17 Borknagarush wrote:
Spinel720,
Honestly do you think that people are intrested in watching 12 year old artwork and listening same music every day?
I almost never look at artwork more recent than 12 years old, which is also true for the music I listen to. I could listen to SC1 music for days on end.
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@ spinel720
Which theatre is it that has helped Paramount pictures and Dreamwork advertise their products continually for 10 years, several hours everyday, all the while paying for those products again? oO
Im interested in knowing who could have done that and whether Paramount or Dreamwork would be stupid enough to turn them down, much less sue them for it.
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fffreak you are right.
korea bought how many millions of copies of sc:bw vs rest of the worlD?
they helped the spur the sales of Bw into upward regions unheard of for a RTS game.
blizzard just wants korea to broadcasto nly sc2, to see the sales they saw of BW but in a new game.
greedy bastard
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This is why we can't have nice things.
God i hate blizzard more and more every days.
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On October 07 2010 14:57 phosphorylation wrote:
Blizzard vs Korea
Good luck blizzard.
Round One! Start!
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I hope they finally get a solution, I want PL and OSL/MSL Prelims to start. I also hope Korea wins and Blizzard loses.
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Its sad to see people hating on blizzard for this. They want recognition for the product they have created. For the people saying that blizzard wants BW to die, please state your sources instead of spreading this misinformation.
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On October 10 2010 09:05 stangstang wrote:
Its sad to see people hating on blizzard for this. They want recognition for the product they have created. For the people saying that blizzard wants BW to die, please state your sources instead of spreading this misinformation.
We're not saying exactly that. We're saying that Blizzard cares more about money.
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On October 10 2010 08:48 Fenrax wrote:
I hope they finally get a solution, I want PL and OSL/MSL Prelims to start. I also hope Korea wins and Blizzard loses.
me, too. But BoxeR left. :'(
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On October 10 2010 09:07 Lightningbullet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 09:05 stangstang wrote:
Its sad to see people hating on blizzard for this. They want recognition for the product they have created. For the people saying that blizzard wants BW to die, please state your sources instead of spreading this misinformation. We're not saying exactly that. We're saying that Blizzard cares more about money.
Of course they do. They made an amazing product and they should be compensated for the use of this product.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:13 stangstang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 09:07 Lightningbullet wrote:On October 10 2010 09:05 stangstang wrote:
Its sad to see people hating on blizzard for this. They want recognition for the product they have created. For the people saying that blizzard wants BW to die, please state your sources instead of spreading this misinformation. We're not saying exactly that. We're saying that Blizzard cares more about money. Of course they do. They made an amazing product and they should be compensated for the use of this product.
They are going way overboard with their demands of compensation if BW dies in the process.
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On October 07 2010 15:12 splints wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:09 overt wrote:
The more I hear about this case the less I like Blizzard. Honestly at this point I regret buying StarCraft 2. QFT. Blizzard looks like they are trying to boss around a country (like Nike does with Indonesia, etc) because they are a multi-national corporation. If the translation and the news is correct, it was very disrespectful to talk to a Minister like that, just because it is a foreign country. I'm sure he would not talk to any departmental secretaries in the US like he did in that meeting.
How are they bossing around a country by asking them to respect their IP rights, exactly?
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Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways.
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On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
They didn't even keep silent. They were more than happy to invite KeSPA's top players over for Blizzcon.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways.
all of it is true other than point 5.
Why?Because OGN and MBC were made the same offer and OGN accepted the terms whereas MBC said they wouldn't(or Couldn't I'm not sure).
and this is profiteering...Not killing.
they're making all the wrong moves leading them to such a stupid position where they are killing BW off...Is it intentional?I don't think so.
I'm not going to argue whats happening since we already know that its pretty clear whats happening,I'm just arguing the 'Why'.
EDIT: point 3 is pointless....Its a sequel to the game,no harm in making a sequel...its only what you do with it.
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On October 10 2010 13:19 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years They didn't even keep silent. They were more than happy to invite KeSPA's top players over for Blizzcon.
That's the 2nd point actually.
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On October 10 2010 13:27 Golondrin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:19 moopie wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years They didn't even keep silent. They were more than happy to invite KeSPA's top players over for Blizzcon. That's the 2nd point actually.
But its also a soft endorsement of KeSPA. It wasn't an IP issue until they needed it to be.
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@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself.
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On October 10 2010 13:26 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. all of it is true other than point 5. Why?Because OGN and MBC were made the same offer and OGN accepted the terms whereas MBC said they wouldn't(or Couldn't I'm not sure). and this is profiteering...Not killing. they're making all the wrong moves leading them to such a stupid position where they are killing BW off...Is it intentional?I don't think so. I'm not going to argue whats happening since we already know that its pretty clear whats happening,I'm just arguing the 'Why'. EDIT: point 3 is pointless....Its a sequel to the game,no harm in making a sequel...its only what you do with it.
OGN only complied because they had more to lose at the time of the negotiations (Korean Air OSL S2 with finals in Shanghai).
On October 10 2010 16:03 ffreakk wrote:
@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself.
To add to that, Blizzard wanted every progamer to sign an additional contract with them that'd override the contract with their actual sponsor/team. They basically wanted the ownership of everything e-sports related, including the players themselves...
You also can't foget that the deal Gretech got was significantly different:
1. 3 year contract (instead of just 1, which is ridiculous).
2. They have no progamers Blizzard could sign additional contracts with (running a team like CJ takes roughly 40 million dollars a year).
3. Gretech has few shows nobody even watches, as opposed to OGN/MBC, which have produced dozens of popular, quality shows (not to mention they're TV stations, so production costs are higher for them).
4. Prior approval about everything - they're just a small, insignificant company, it's a blessing for them they got the IP rights so easily, why would they complain (on the other hand, KeSPA is the equivalent of FIFA/national soccer associations for esports in Korea - recognized by the government as such).
5. Auditing Gretech, a small software developer is no dig deal. KeSPA, on the other hand, consists of several major Korean conglomerates.
6. Afaik Gretech got the IP rights practically for free, while Blizzard demanded KeSPA pay a lot of money (not completely sure about this one).
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On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways.
1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons?
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community.
4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control.
5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it?
6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law.
7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal.
8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?
Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.
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On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?
Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.
Problem is....it ain't the same company =[
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On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.
You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really
I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway.
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
On October 10 2010 17:39 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?
Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely. Problem is....it ain't the same company =[
woah woah woah....
the previous post pretty much explained a lot of your arguments... but number 8 just kind of made me mad... Quoting you, "Cultural differences can turn on phrase from compliment to insult" right? well in korea, it's kind of normal to say that when a person who is younger or of less status is rudely not using formal language and etiquette. There recently was a singer who got completely cursed at for appearing in a tv show slouched while sitting next to an actress who debuted 20 years before him... They didn't even talk throughout the show, but just because he was in her presence without having a good posture, everyone went crazy about how rude he was...
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Netherlands5 Posts
On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.
I found point 3 following what you state in point 2 quite ironic.
I'm not sure what the innovative capabilities of Korea has to do with the subject, but looking at the succesful spread of their cultural productions all over Asia, stating that Korea is not very innovative seems quite ignorant and insulting, and makes your post look like merely bashing on Korea.
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wow the PR hit Blizzard would take losing this. As if the entire debate in the first place didn't cost them a lot of negative PR..
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Yea looking around me i can already see the negative PR that Blizz is taking.. SC2 is the first title of Blizzard that i do not have a copy of (nor do i have any plan to get one), and many friends of mine are also not buying SC2 despite being huge fans of their previous titles (SC, D2, WC3, etc).. I can imagine that we are not the only ones..
Im not even sure if assuming they successfully kill off BW, will the extra viewership -> SC2 sales be able to compensate for all these..
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I wonder what would've happened if Blizzard decided not to be a bitch and just let KeSPA broadcast SC2. There would probably be progaming teams for SC2 and free advertising.
Don't know why they decided to do this instead.
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On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
I think the question is are YOU serious? Over half of BW's total sales were in Korea and spurred on by the massive popularity of the E-Sports scene. Esports made BW into what we know it as today. Everything progaming based event/organization/etc has to give massive credit to the Korean scene whether you like it or not.
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On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.
Sweet sweet Blizz fanboy tears.
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On October 10 2010 23:57 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. I think the question is are YOU serious? Over half of BW's total sales were in Korea and spurred on by the massive popularity of the E-Sports scene. Esports made BW into what we know it as today. Everything progaming based event/organization/etc has to give massive credit to the Korean scene whether you like it or not.
Exactly.
Also, nobody would give a shit about SC2 if BW hadn't been such a huge success. And the pro-scene is very largely responsible to BW success. I'm quite sure that the game wouldn't have survived 10 years without kespa and Korean scene.
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infinity/Dmi:
If you read my statement, I was talking about the potential for eSports to have an influencing trend, which, the sales for BW were in a quick lump sum early on, not a long leg trend. If eSports provided a bump in sales, it would have done so for a long period of time. However, BW is exceptionally easy to pirate, so in all likelihood, the bump never could materialize.
As proof, Bliz have more than once said the total number of Bnet users versus the actual sales showed that the game was possibly pirated at about an 8:1 ratio.
Also, if it isn't profitable how does KeSPA manage to grow? How do they pay for it all? If there's no profit, they wouldn't be worried about their books being audited. However, they are worried. This contradiction says something.
Also, I didn't pull the fact that KeSPA has used profits gained to promoted competitive game development. Game development isn't cheap. Granted, KeSPA has yet to usurp the king they've been leaching off... from my view, I would see this as the main reason they are trying to get KeSPA in line. A point BW fanboys ignore constantly.
Bisu:
And just the same, if the minister is a person of education and intellect, they know it goes both ways. They know the other party isn't Korean and won't act under Korean cultural norms. If they are a child, then they will react as the translation suggests.
Maasa:
Well, I was speaking on how KeSPA has used profits from BW eSports to fund game development for competitive titles (i.e. shed BW and use their own game), but routinely produced games that just sucked. I don't mean to rag on Korea... but, let's face it, they don't really innovate new products or ideas. Just now where they are economically yet. I don't mean this entirely poorly... thanks to their push on cost/quality (best example, Samsung), companies that do innovate are forced to keep their prices lower to compete after being copied.
For the most part, Korea doesn't steal and re-brand (current economic level of China). They tend to steal, re-design, add new features, and re-brand. To that I respect them and look forward to an era when they are examining latent consumer needs and conducting product development based on them (i.e. riskier ventures with greater returns).
Zen:
Indeed... brilliant retort. Either way, when the lights go out have fun lobbing hate over internet forums. Or, maybe you could... you know, try to see the other side's logic? Iuno... naw, spewing hate will likely get you further. Stay the course.
BW doesn't need KeSPA to survive. eSports does need to take IP rights seriously to survive. Pretty simple solution.
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On October 11 2010 03:21 sk` wrote:
Zen:
Indeed... brilliant retort. Either way, when the lights go out have fun lobbing hate over internet forums. Or, maybe you could... you know, try to see the other side's logic? Iuno... naw, spewing hate will likely get you further. Stay the course.
BW doesn't need KeSPA to survive. eSports does need to take IP rights seriously to survive. Pretty simple solution.
I don't need to see the other side of the logic, I am blinded by my love for e-sports. You're the one who needs to revise on your hate on Kespa.
You claim BW doesn't need Kespa to survive, and I ask how is the BW scene doing outside of Korea? Gamers outside of Korea are sheeps, they'll flock to whatever that is new and shiny. Only Korea has proven to sustain real e-sports. The first people to kill SC2 scene will be Blizzard themselves as soon as they come out with WC4. Granted if SC2 even lasts that long lol.
Game companies only care about profit(charging $20 to watch amateurs play a 2 month old game lol. How much does it cost to watch pro BW?), if game developers gets full control of everything involving their product, real e-sports will never develop. Existing games/scenes would be tossed aside to promote their new game.
If you're gullible enough to buy into this "e-sports" created by Blizzard and willing to watch as they destroy your favorite games to promote new games to make more money for themselves, then by all means support them like sheeps, they'll happy to take your money.
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There's no point arguing with this guy he's just making shit up. BW pirated in an 8:1 ratio, lol. So you think there's 76 million people total who have copies legitimate or otherwise? Do you even have any evidence BW sales were all in one lump sum in Korea? Seriously you are just making shit up in your head to support your pre-existing opinion.
If it is profitable then where is the profit coming from? You're another person that doesn't seem to understand that KeSPA is the sponsors and the sponsors are KeSPA. And if you don't know basic things like this why are you even trying to write up such long uninformed posts.
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On October 11 2010 03:21 sk` wrote:
infinity/Dmi:
If you read my statement, I was talking about the potential for eSports to have an influencing trend, which, the sales for BW were in a quick lump sum early on, not a long leg trend. If eSports provided a bump in sales, it would have done so for a long period of time. However, BW is exceptionally easy to pirate, so in all likelihood, the bump never could materialize.
BW has sold roughly 2 million copies between around 2006 and 2009. It has sold over 11 million copies in over a decade's time, which is specifically stated in the wikipedia article.
Without the progaming scene SC2 wouldn't be even half as hyped. It'd be just another Blizzard game, not the sequal to "the greatest RTS of all times."
BW without KeSPA would've been long dead, just like anywhere outside of Korea.
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On October 11 2010 03:21 sk` wrote:
infinity/Dmi:
If you read my statement, I was talking about the potential for eSports to have an influencing trend, which, the sales for BW were in a quick lump sum early on, not a long leg trend. If eSports provided a bump in sales, it would have done so for a long period of time. However, BW is exceptionally easy to pirate, so in all likelihood, the bump never could materialize.
As proof, Bliz have more than once said the total number of Bnet users versus the actual sales showed that the game was possibly pirated at about an 8:1 ratio.
Also, if it isn't profitable how does KeSPA manage to grow? How do they pay for it all? If there's no profit, they wouldn't be worried about their books being audited. However, they are worried. This contradiction says something.
Also, I didn't pull the fact that KeSPA has used profits gained to promoted competitive game development. Game development isn't cheap. Granted, KeSPA has yet to usurp the king they've been leaching off... from my view, I would see this as the main reason they are trying to get KeSPA in line. A point BW fanboys ignore constantly.
I always read everything before I post. Its very rare if ever you'll find that I just plain old "overlooked" something. If E-Sports has a lasting trend, sales of the game will continue to be noticeable through the years. BW's initial sales weren't even half of the total we see today. The fact that a 12-year old game is still being bought today should send off tons of alarms in your "Ok this worked" section of your brain. It doesn't really matter if BW was pirated or not. SC2 is being pirated too like everything else. Just wait 12 years and see if that ratio doesn't end up being the same or worse than BW's.
If you took their "8:1" ratio of pirating to be accurate, then that means that 88 million people at the very least were interested in your game. That's more then the total population of a lot of countries. How does that not calculate as "success" for the e-sport?
It seems you don't understand business concepts yet. This was my minor in college so allow me to direct you to at least google what "Non-Profit Organizations" are. If you are suggesting that a NPO can't grow from its initial establishment... I will re-refer you to google for many other concepts. The thing is that they might've been making profits so that's probably why they're being cautious right now.
Once again, I question your sources for any of this. My points can all be easily google'd for proof whereas yours sound like they were pulled from some important case files or specific articles which might be more difficult to find. Please cite some so I know you're not just talking out your ass. KeSPA has never been interested in developing its own games competitively though they may re-invest their profits in competitive game development which is in turn putting money into their own product, "E-Sports". Hell, if Activision-Blizzard wasn't being so damn stupid about this whole thing (and if they weren't led by Satan), KeSPA probably would've dumped a shit-ton of money and support into that game too.
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I support blizzard
korea, "how dare you speak to a minister this way? Your just a ordinary president of a company"
LOL, I respect that president more than I do the minister
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On October 11 2010 05:10 aztrorisk wrote:
I support blizzard
korea, "how dare you speak to a minister this way? Your just a ordinary president of a company"
LOL, I respect that president more than I do the minister
You support Blizzard in destroying BW? How nice of you. T____T
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In regards to pirating, the only South Koreans I've known (all foreign exchange students) all said they only had a pirated version of Brood War that they played on private servers.
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United States42106 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:40 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung).
I expect a minister of culture to be aware of the culture of others. You don't go into a dispute expecting the other party to conform fully to your own cultural quirks. And in terms of position, the CEO of a multibillion multinational is a hell of a lot more successful than the vice minister for culture.
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On October 11 2010 05:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:40 Lightwip wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung). I expect a minister of culture to be aware of the culture of others. You don't go into a dispute expecting the other party to conform fully to your own cultural quirks. And in terms of position, the CEO of a multibillion multinational is a hell of a lot more successful than the vice minister for culture.
I suppose that's true.
But I would expect the minister to be somewhat pissed. Also, you don't talk like that to a government official if you want to accomplish something anyways.
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On October 11 2010 05:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:40 Lightwip wrote:On October 07 2010 15:35 Demand2k wrote:
"The Vice Minister of course responded angrily, saying "Who do you think you are to say these things to the Minister? You're just a president of an ordinary corporation!!!"
Korea's core problem. Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung). I expect a minister of culture to be aware of the culture of others. You don't go into a dispute expecting the other party to conform fully to your own cultural quirks. And in terms of position, the CEO of a multibillion multinational is a hell of a lot more successful than the vice minister for culture.
Yeah, but you also don't insult a government official when you're trying to do business in THEIR country. Even if you're the head of a multi-billion corporation. It's like a white man living in an asian guy's house and insulting the asian guy's decor. It's a terrible thing to do, even if his decor really does suck.
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Well assuming both sides being wrong, i would think that the one being wrong first will be held more responsible?
I dont know what is more painful.. Idiotic uninformed 1-liner or long-winded informed essays.. Pretty much the only argument that Blizz fans are yapping around is that "Its a Blizz-made game so they can do whatever they want with it".. Cmon theres a reason we have laws against Child Abuse.. Just cos you created something does not, and should not mean you have full control over its usage in society.. Much more so in Blizz case where they even already got PAID for it.
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This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free".
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Lets look at the present situation. Blizzard wants to be reimbursed for Kespa profiting from using Blizzards IP. (Before you say that Kespa is non-profit, try to figure out what that actually means). Blizzard did not pursue E-sports in the way Kespa did, which is really the only thing Kespa has going for themselves. The "Kespa advertised Starcraft for Blizzard" argument is mute if there was no deal beforehand. Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement? On one hand, there is the fact that they did nothing to help E-sports grow, and just sat and went on to their next project. On the other hand, they created the game that spurred the only real legitimate E-sport ever. If that isn't helping "e-sports", I really do not know what is. How could anyone help E-sports grow more than the teams that create these E-sports-viable games?
It really makes perfect sense why Blizzard had a grudge with Kespa. They wanted nothing to do with Blizzard from the beginning. They did not ask for permission, or asked to partner up, or anything of that sort. Obviously they aren't going to be giving up their new E-sports baby to this organization without a fight.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free".
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Lets look at the present situation. Blizzard wants to be reimbursed for Kespa profiting from using Blizzards IP. (Before you say that Kespa is non-profit, try to figure out what that actually means). Blizzard did not pursue E-sports in the way Kespa did, which is really the only thing Kespa has going for themselves. The "Kespa advertised Starcraft for Blizzard" argument is mute if there was no deal beforehand. Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement? On one hand, there is the fact that they did nothing to help E-sports grow, and just sat and went on to their next project. On the other hand, they created the game that spurred the only real legitimate E-sport ever. If that isn't helping "e-sports", I really do not know what is. How could anyone help E-sports grow more than the teams that create these E-sports-viable games?
It really makes perfect sense why Blizzard had a grudge with Kespa. They wanted nothing to do with Blizzard from the beginning. They did not ask for permission, or asked to partner up, or anything of that sort. Obviously they aren't going to be giving up their new E-sports baby to this organization without a fight.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
Let me be a little personal with my first comment and say this..
omgwtf another one of those SC2 idiot who knows nothing but come along to BW forums and write Essays about how their fking Blizz is best!!!
Right, now you clearly have not done your homework and read up on any of these issues.. You probably read a few post here and there in this thread and assume you know everything and immediately head forward to writing your essay. Let me help trying to break it down for you.
If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show.
No shit, where would you find another 11 multi-billion dollars company to sponsor SC like those 11 from Kespa did? You obviously think Kespa is just another little firm organising tournaments, so i ll spell it out for you.. Those 11 from Kespa make your beloved Acti-Blizz look like a homeless beggar when u wanna compare wealth. And there wont "simply be another" such group around.
Most games' sales almost die out completely after 1 year post-release.. Look at BW, it continue to sell for 4 times the amount. What was it that set it apart from the rest?.. I would say it was the fact that BW had professionals players developing it to such a work of art that it is today. Sure, the game had near-perfect balance and dynamic gameplay.. But guess who found that out? Not the pros "where you live" but our Korean guys. Seeing as how this phenomenon started in Korea from the hands of Kespa, i see no reason to discredit them for what they have done..
You realise that when all these tournaments are organised, they actually BOUGHT the games from Blizz right? Your analogy where Private Server players (in WoW) does not pay Blizz is irrelevant. Kespa did pay Blizz for the games that they use.
And before you yaps about how Kespa being non-profit is nonsense, why dont you explain your reasons? "A non-profit organization (abbreviated as NPO, also known as a not-for-profit organization[1]) is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals" - Wikipedia. Kespa declared that all profits earned are redirected back to organising ProLeague, paying the players, etc.. Until you have proven otherwise It will be taken as the truth.
Michael Jordan can't go to Nike and say "Hey, I wore your shoes the last 10 years, pay for the advertisement". He has to go to Nike and say "Hey, pay me and I will wear your shoes for 10 years". Does Blizzard deserve reimbursement?
Another one of your twisted analogy.. Kespa did not ask Blizz to pay anything, they only want to be left alone, just as Jordan should be left alone after wearing Nike for 10years. Now if Nike suddenly says "Hey bitch you wore my shoe for 10 years (note: you did pay for the shoe) and earn money while doing that, pay me!", would that make sense? Also take note that theoretically, Kespa doesnt even earn money while organising SC:BW tourneys.
Blizz's creation of a wonderful game (read Brood War, not Starcrap2) was already rewarded with legendary sales figure. And you would think that Blizz should prefer to further their collaboration with someone whos been relentlessly advertising their game over a decade, in order to promote and improve the sale of their new game, rather than trying to squish that guy because they are covetting the infrastructure for E-Sport that the other guy has laid down.
Your last paragraph is so full of garbage its a waste of time to go into details.. I ll just tell you that those things are actually reasonable if you consider the fact that they are paid professionals.. And E-Sport outside of Korea is, as you can see, is non-existent at the moment.. How the fk are you pissed that an organisation formed by Korean firms and Korean ministry of Culture focus on developing the scene in Korea?.. Blame your own country for not having the equivalent.. Not that theres any hope for E-Sport in Canada (or anywhere else), mind..
Edit: Typos
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You'r wall of text covered the best part in text...
The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea
its KeSPA, "Korean e-Sports Players Association" Why would they need to spread e-sport outside of Korea, that would be outright silly. Providing streams etc outside of Korea, is up to televisio channels to do and in some content they have done it aka. OGN streams.
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Russian Federation124 Posts
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On October 11 2010 08:19 Jienny wrote:You'r wall of text covered the best part in text... Show nested quote +The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea its KeSPA, " Korean e-Sports Players Association" Why would they need to spread e-sport outside of Korea, that would be outright silly. Providing streams etc outside of Korea, is up to televisio channels to do and in some content they have done it aka. OGN streams.
Yup pretty much, and lol at you discrediting the OSL finals in China as not "outside of korea." Let me just put it to you this way, there is almost zero chance of e-sports being established outside of korea.
The mentality of people outside korea just won't accept playing "video games" as being a professional job.Yes, there is TL, but if you think about it, TL is worldwide and is a hell of a lot smaller than the korean fanbase. The place outside of korea which has the most potential to accept esports is China, and that is why I'm guessing kespa is trying to expand there.
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On October 10 2010 18:28 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely. You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway.
U actually seriously think Kespa makes no profit?????????????????? are u crazy.
The games are televised their are sponsors food events at the gsl and msl all is major revenue or else they would give good player a million dollar contract
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On October 11 2010 09:41 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 18:28 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:
1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???
That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways. 1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons? 2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales. 3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community. 4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control. 5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it? 6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law. 7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal. 8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that? Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely. You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway. U actually seriously think Kespa makes no profit?????????????????? are u crazy. The games are televised their are sponsors food events at the gsl and msl all is major revenue or else they would give good player a million dollar contract
Please, Darkren or sk`, do tell me how they make a profit.
How are their profits shared? Does KT, SKT or Samsung get a greater percentage of these profits you speak of, because they are bigger? (excuse my ignorance on the company sizes)
I would really appreciate if any kespa profit screaming boys could enlighten us on this matter.
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"No shit, where would you find another 11 multi-billion dollars company to sponsor SC like those 11 from Kespa did? You obviously think Kespa is just another little firm organising tournaments, so i ll spell it out for you.. Those 11 from Kespa make your beloved Acti-Blizz look like a homeless beggar when u wanna compare wealth. And there wont "simply be another" such group around."
Sorry for my ignorance but as far as I know, Kespa is NOT the 11 corporations that are sponsoring the teams. Those 11 corporations are independent entities that are sponsoring Kespa teams. No idea why you are making it out to be that Kespa are those 11 corporations or in anyway control them. You seem to miss my point anyway. My point was that it really could have been any organization that could have formed this. Organization X would want to start an SC league, they wanted teams, they would also want sponsors for these teams.
Most games' sales almost die out completely after 1 year post-release.
So if a game sells after its first year, it is automatically because of Korean pros? I found out about SC in 2002 when I lived in a 3rd world country with no internet. Friends come over, we would LAN it up and the whole works. Why? Because it was a great game. We didn't even have any idea about the pro scene. I know a lot of people that were in the same position as I am. My brother, who doesn't play games at all, would play SC when his old friends are around. It was a great game. Thats why people buy it. Here is my theory on record sales. After a few years, the price dropped dramatically such that people in poor countries could afford it. Since RTS aren't exactly abundant, and good ones are very rare, it still sold a lot. People mention sales went up dramatically, but does anyone know if the profits went up as much? Most games don't sell well after the first year, because the companies release a sequel a year later (i.e sport games, halo, cod, etc.). I'm not sure if my theory is correct, but neither are you. Unless you can find a legitimate source stating that a shit ton of copies was sold in Korea at a certain price. And even then, it would probably be very minimal.
I don't know what you actually mean by "bought the games" from Blizzard. Do you mean they bought the rights? Either way I haven't heard so I'm guessing I'm misinformed. I just used the information people posted here, that they did not ask for a license to broadcast BW games. (Feel free to correct me if this is wrong). If you meant that they bought actual game copies, then my point stands. When you pay $15 a month for WoW, you are paying for the server you play online for, not the actual game (that's part of the initial amount). Buying SC allows you to play on Battle.net. By creating servers other than Battle.net, you are essentially doing the same thing as the private WoW server. Yes, ICCUP is in the wrong as well. But then again, they were not a "11 multi billion dollar company"
My analogy is actually quite sound. Its only twisted if you misinterpret it. What I'm trying to say is Jordan is not entitled to any money in the first option. This was particularly aimed at the people who were saying Blizz should not ask Kespa for money because Kespa was advertising their game for them, so its even. Its not even because Blizzard does not owe Kespa anything.
For the non-profit tidbit, it's non-profit in the sense that they don't declare any profits. That is because they put all profits back into their product, and in turn don't get taxed.
As for the last paragraph, I stand by what I said. The fact that they are paid professionals doesn't mean that we can kill the spirit of competition. Have you seen how fast these guys play? They are bound to hit a wrong key at some point. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92204 . Looks more like running a business than a competition if you ask me.
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa... This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
I don't hate Kespa, I don't care about Kespa. Kespa does not affect my life in any way, shape, or form. You want to know who might though? Blizzard. Obviously Kespa will only care about Korean e-sports, I realize this. I don't wish death up on the Korean e-Sports scene, but a Blizzard victory has a bigger chance of brining E-sports to the western world (I guess I can say world since Korea is the only country that has it) than Kespa ever will. Like Kespa only caring about E-sports development in their territory, I only care about E-sports development in my area. Thus it makes perfect sense for me to support Blizzard. I'm sure one day, there will be another country that will join in onto the E-sports wagon. I'm not sure, however, about why you have no hope for any other country. The only difference is the mainstream culture. However, if people over here didn't care, this site wouldn't exist.
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I would ONLY believe that Blizzard is trying to expand E-Sport if they are actually getting sponsors and ACTUALLY CREATING THEIR OWN TEAM IN NA! Like in Korea, if Blizzard TRULY wanted to expand the E-Sport, they would've gotten their own proleague in USA already but they are not doing it atm despite them having more money than Kespa.
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"the only difference is the mainstream culture".
pretty sure thats a small difference and not the biggest.
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No, KeSPA IS the corporations. SK Telecom is currently the corporation that is the head of the board. If you don't even know the situation you should really stop talking about it and using so many words to say so little when its all misinformed junk. If you don't care about Korean eSports then heres an idea; Don't post about it.
You are delusional if you think killing the BW scene will somehow magically make eSports successful elsewhere in the world, why do you think that would even be a good thing. Killing off the longest running most successful leagues, yeah that really will encourage the development and growth of eSports won't it? Blizzard themselves clearly know it's not even viable elsewhere hence why to take part in the 'international tournament' that is the GSL you have to pretty much live in Korea in the first place. You should be over on their forums complaining to them why they have made zero effort to run Starleagues in other countries if you care so much, not whining about KeSPA.
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Do you really think sinking KeSPA will bring e-sports to the western world?
It will do exactly the opposite. It will show that it can't be done. Anyone who thinks about starting up e-sports will remember how it happened in Korea and decide against it. KeSPA is the one chance to show that it can be viable.
You know the real reason e-sports doesn't exist in the west? Because a lot of people think LOLOL KOREANZ R NURDZ FOR WATCHING DEM STARCRAFTS. It's not seen as something legitimate, just a ridiculous part of Korean culture. If the culture was more accepting of gamers(such as calling them by their real names for one), then e-sports could be in the west too.
KeSPA dies= e-sports loses legitimacy=no more e-sports.
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i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
Please read the thread before commenting... seriously, this was posted 2 pages ago:
On October 10 2010 16:03 ffreakk wrote:
@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself.
Do those conditions sound reasonable? I think not. Kespa also agreed to paying royalties, but did not agree to any of the other above terms.
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
KeSPA is willing to pay for licensing, however there were many more unreasonable demands Blizzard were making such as them having control and basically owning the players contracts, owning any media produced for Starcraft (so effectively owning the broadcasts), wanting a percentage of all sponsorships for teams/tournaments and many more. This is unprecedented so its questionable if they have a legal right to be demanding so much just because their game is used.
A judge would probably also take into consideration the fact Blizzard practically semi-condoned the proscene for many years and seemed to have no problem with it until they coincidentally happen to have a new product coming out that would compete with it... We didn't see Blizzard making any noise at all back in the peak days of proleague with 100k people turning up to watch the finals and free publicity and large BW sales generated in Korea from the hype.
Edit: Ah a lot of the terms wanted are in the post above. I think anyone can agree its unreasonable and eSports could not even continue how it is now under such ridiculous terms, basically being held hostage by the game developer for every aspect of it when it should be independent.
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On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now
People who makes posts like these from now on should be warned. Do your homework before posting.
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First of all I don't think blizz would be that rude, and secondly blizz brings up a valid point in international negotiations.
If you really wanted to get nitty-gritty, the argument could go like this:
Blizz: "WTF man you're not respecting international trade agreements over intellectual property. W.T.F."
S.K.: "Who the hell are you, you're just some president of some corporation."
Blizz: "Yeah let's see what the US state department has to say about these treaties being violated."
U.S. : "Hey blizz what's up you're a large AMERICAN company and of course we'll do whatever we can to support you. What's that, S.K isn't respecting your intellectual property? Lets look into it and see what the problem is and see if our trade agreements need to be revisited."
U.S: "Hey S.K. got a problem with our international trade agreement"
S.K. "Oh shit sorry it's just a small problem we'll take care of it, no need for you to get involved, I'm sure an amicable arrangement can be made between us and blizz, no problemo."
I also don't think that blizz is looking to destroy e-sports as well. I figure e-sports may well form a fundamental of their future business plans and they want the control so they can grow it more effectively, especially in countries outside of S.K. You don't get to be the head of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and short sighted.
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On October 11 2010 11:30 sikyon wrote:
First of all I don't think blizz would be that rude, and secondly blizz brings up a valid point in international negotiations.
If you really wanted to get nitty-gritty, the argument could go like this:
Blizz: "WTF man you're not respecting international trade agreements over intellectual property. W.T.F."
S.K.: "Who the hell are you, you're just some president of some corporation."
Blizz: "Yeah let's see what the US state department has to say about these treaties being violated."
U.S. : "Hey blizz what's up you're a large AMERICAN company and of course we'll do whatever we can to support you. What's that, S.K isn't respecting your intellectual property? Lets look into it and see what the problem is and see if our trade agreements need to be revisited."
U.S: "Hey S.K. got a problem with our international trade agreement"
S.K. "Oh shit sorry it's just a small problem we'll take care of it, no need for you to get involved, I'm sure an amicable arrangement can be made between us and blizz, no problemo."
I also don't think that blizz is looking to destroy e-sports as well. I figure e-sports may well form a fundamental of their future business plans and they want the control so they can grow it more effectively, especially in countries outside of S.K. You don't get to be the head of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and short sighted.
Goldman Sachs anyone? Citibank? Bank of America?
Blizzard is ran by a combination between Vivendi Entertainment and Activision, if you don't think they are capable of being incorrigible in negotiations than you need to do some more research.
I don't see how blizzard has any case whatsoever in terms of controlling the rights of basically everything surrounding the game and pro-scene just because they made the game. Whoever invented chess and their ancestors would have claim to billions and billions of dollars in that case. Every copy of Brood War that is played on television has been payed for legally, so people should be able to do with their property of what they bought how they see fit.
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WHERE'S MA PROLEAGUE?!?!?!?!
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WHERE'S MA PROLEAGUE?!?!?!?!
In jail.
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Hopefully starting up on the 16th of Oct like they had promised.
I really hope that Blizz wont succeed in smashing a significant chunk of their fanbase this time round.
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United States42106 Posts
On October 11 2010 06:33 ffreakk wrote:
Well assuming both sides being wrong, i would think that the one being wrong first will be held more responsible?
I dont know what is more painful.. Idiotic uninformed 1-liner or long-winded informed essays.. Pretty much the only argument that Blizz fans are yapping around is that "Its a Blizz-made game so they can do whatever they want with it".. Cmon theres a reason we have laws against Child Abuse.. Just cos you created something does not, and should not mean you have full control over its usage in society.. Much more so in Blizz case where they even already got PAID for it.
It's not quite the same thing as child abuse. Also when you buy a product you don't suddenly own the rights for that product.
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Eight of developing a pro scene and making basicaly free advertisiment of a game that has been totaly forgotten from its developers is not exactly suddenly.
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Kwark, i believe upon paying for a product i have already obtain the rights to use that particular product that i paid for. Of course its different now with SC2's screwed up EULA but it wasnt so for SC:BW.
I am aware that Child Abuse is a little different, just used it as a reference to the fact that one shouldnt be entitled all rights to something just because they created it.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I think that separation of powers is important. Should all power go to Blizzard and they become free to do whatever they want it won't be good for E-Sports in the long run.
If Blizzard wants to make money with E-Sports they shall go and offer a better tournament series than those that already exist. It is the same as with Ink Cartridge, Internet Explorer and other stuff - if companies get a monopoly for selling/marketing stuff that you use AFTER you bought the initial product, these things will be incredibly sucky and overpriced compared to what a free market could produce.
Thus my conclusion is that in the sense of a free market economy everyone should be free to run a Video Game tournament series, just like everyone is free to run a chess or soccer tournament if he finds the sponsors and players for it.
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On October 11 2010 16:19 ffreakk wrote:I am aware that Child Abuse is a little different, just used it as a reference to the fact that one shouldnt be entitled all rights to something just because they created it.
They had also created it using tools that they didn't create themselves. They don't pay royalties for everybody who made computer technology possible, actually they pay royalties for none of those people, they had only brought hardware once. Just try to imagine if you would have to pay to everybody who made some innovation in every invention that you use, and that it would be patented forever, nobody can't seriously believe that this would be good.
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On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free".
You still dont understand. They did not only made the game fandom growing. THEY PROTECTED IT FROM BEING DEAD.
On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Thats true, but Blizzard really gain a big profits with that, i suspect much more than they ever had without it.
On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Overrusing it is also dangerous, becouse it will make a lot of absurds pretty soon. But involving in the CONTRACTS is just intolerable.
On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
"Dont giving fuck about KESPA" means "dont giving fuck about e-sport at all". This is the basic thing you dont understand. They are the true pioneers in profesional e-sport, the only thing that prevents any e-sport industry from stagnation. They dont slow down the e-sport abroad, in fact- they really did the opposite. Samsung, the company involved in KeSPA was the one that sponsored the very first WCG as i remember exacly.
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On October 11 2010 21:00 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free". You still dont understand. They did not only made the game fandom growing. THEY PROTECTED IT FROM BEING DEAD. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Thats true, but Blizzard really gain a big profits with that, i suspect much more than they ever had without it. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Overrusing it is also dangerous, becouse it will make a lot of absurds pretty soon. But involving in the CONTRACTS is just intolerable. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
"Dont giving fuck about KESPA" means "dont giving fuck about e-sport at all". This is the basic thing you dont understand. They are the true pioneers in profesional e-sport, the only thing that prevents any e-sport industry from stagnation. They dont slow down the e-sport abroad, in fact- they really mad the opposite. Samsung, the company involved in KeSPA was the one who sponsored the very first WCG as i remember exacly.
Yep and Samsung is STILL the main sponsor of WCG.
Btw, the verdict on what will happen to the estro team will be revealed tomorrow.
http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=33212
KT are also holding a one-day workshop for the 2010-11 season.
http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=33218
Hopefully this is a good indication that proleague is about to start.
Actually lotsa other BW news lately but my Korean is not good enough to translate full articles. =(
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Ohhh can't wait for the news to be translated. brb while i draw love hearts on the blocked labelled 16/10 on my calendar =]
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Someone please translate stuff like that. I'm dying to find out what's going on in the BW-scene.
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On October 11 2010 22:09 Holgerius wrote:
Someone please translate stuff like that. I'm dying to find out what's going on in the BW-scene.
Same here.
Interview with Fantasy, a few pictures:
http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=33101
He talks about Flash and Jaedong among other things. Totally irrelevant but he's wearing a Beams jacket, bought from their Japan trip?
There was also an announcement a few weeks back about the SKT Head Coach's wife being pregnant.
That's about all I can remember at the moment.
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wow government is involved now? >_>
this is going a little far...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On October 11 2010 22:33 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 22:09 Holgerius wrote:
Someone please translate stuff like that. I'm dying to find out what's going on in the BW-scene. Same here. Interview with Fantasy, a few pictures: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=33101He talks about Flash and Jaedong among other things. Totally irrelevant but he's wearing a Beams jacket, bought from their Japan trip? There was also an announcement a few weeks back about the SKT Head Coach's wife being pregnant. That's about all I can remember at the moment.
That son of a gun... :p
There is always joy in the midst of chaos...
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On October 11 2010 22:33 Ryo wrote:SKT Head Coach's wife being pregnant.
But Park JUST got married. Did it happen before marriage?
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Blizzard is a greedy little bitch. If I were the CEO of Blizzard, I would be sending thank-you cards to KeSPA every day for the amount of money I was able to make off just selling BW.
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On October 11 2010 23:09 Lightwip wrote:But Park JUST got married. Did it happen before marriage?
Wow, looks like she's already given birth. I kid you not. lol.
http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=33063
According to the article, she was 6mths pregnant when they were married in August. Due to deliver on Dec 1st but on Oct 5th they announced that the baby arrived 2 mths early by Caesarian at Samsung Medical Center. Mother and child are in good health says Park.
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I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard.
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On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard.
Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Once again someone fails to do their homework. It's not about refusing to pay royalties, maybe if you did your research you could crawl out of the rock Blizzard created for you to live under.
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On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard.
The only time you're allowed to take this tone is when you're well-educated on the subject at hand, and have enough intelligence to pull off a complete sarcastic post. As you obviously are neither, read the thread, educate yourself, come back and try again unless you want to continue to embarrass yourself by displaying this blatant, ignorant, idiocy.
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Netherlands5 Posts
On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard.
I agree Blizzard has made some awesome games over the years, of which Starcraft is amongst the top, if not the best. All the more reason to be upset about the attempts to put the Starcraft scene in the closet on a dusty shelve, which ironically is done by... Blizzard. It is not that people are angry at Blizzard for making awesome games, on the contrary, it is for attempting to pull one of those great games away.
I suppose both sides have shown rather childish behavior to put it mildly, but Kespa seems to care a lot more for Starcraft and its pro-scene than Blizzard, and so do I.
And for the record, Kespa would be there even if Starcraft would not have been made. First there was Kespa, then they picked Starcraft to organize building a succesful scene around.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 21:00 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free". You still dont understand. They did not only made the game fandom growing. THEY PROTECTED IT FROM BEING DEAD. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Thats true, but Blizzard really gain a big profits with that, i suspect much more than they ever had without it. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Overrusing it is also dangerous, becouse it will make a lot of absurds pretty soon. But involving in the CONTRACTS is just intolerable. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
"Dont giving fuck about KESPA" means "dont giving fuck about e-sport at all". This is the basic thing you dont understand. They are the true pioneers in profesional e-sport, the only thing that prevents any e-sport industry from stagnation. They dont slow down the e-sport abroad, in fact- they really did the opposite. Samsung, the company involved in KeSPA was the one that sponsored the very first WCG as i remember exacly.
I think I worded that last paragraph wrong. It was written in the perspective of a North American gamer. In this way, it would be a natural selfish thing to want Blizzard to win. Why? Because Blizzard has a better chance of making what was happening in Korea happen in the US, maybe even better. Kespa on the other hand, has no real prospects of growing e-sports anywhere else (aside from being an example of success, but for some reason most people who talk about kespa talk about the negatives anyway). Yes Kespa is not entitled to expand anywhere else, they are the KOREAN e-sports association. But this is also the main reason why I don't "care" (note: not hate, not want to lose, not any other thing. Just care).
I never knew the BW pro-scene existed until I watched a Blizzcon. Saw that these guys were amazing, and then later learned about everything. Then later found out they weren't the best because Kespa didn't want their players participating in tourney for a possible 75k prize.
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On October 12 2010 00:59 mprs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 21:00 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
This debate is border-line idiotic. I'll preface my argument with the notion that I will not use statistics or anything of that sort just because I don't feel like making up numbers today.
Kespa (well, before it formed, someone) saw a game that was getting a lot of attention in Korea. There was a PC-bang boom so to speak, and video games (especially some of the easy-to-pirate variety, aka perhaps SC!) were getting fairly popular in the Korean culture. Kespa formed on the notion that there is a market for this product we call e-sports. If Kespa was not around, there simply would have been another organization called PKFAF or KSFOTG or even STJUWTUWTY34692 to run the show. Not to undermine their accomplishments, they took this young child and grew it to be as big as possible. However, the notion that Kespa was the reason why E-sports developed in Korea is most probably not true. They simply took an advantage of a situation. The fact that they made it grow is really irrelevant because any business would have done the same. I would also like to mention that every time you see a commercial, you are basically paying money. So really the programming is not "free". You still dont understand. They did not only made the game fandom growing. THEY PROTECTED IT FROM BEING DEAD. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
So what does this all mean? Nothing really. Kespa or any organization would have been in that situation. The fact that Blizzard "needed" Kespa is really not true. Its not like they were living off Starcraft sales. In fact, since it was so much after release, $5 times a copy is negligible in the grand scheme of things when 11 million are paying $15 a month. Did Kespa need Blizzard? There would have been another game they could have used, so I doubt it.
Thats true, but Blizzard really gain a big profits with that, i suspect much more than they ever had without it. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
Now on to IP rights. Not recognizing IP rights is very dangerous. If you look at World of Warcraft. Can you imagine if private servers were legal (they are not only because of IP rights)? It would make the game 100% free. Even better, the people running the server can charge less and take ALL the profits from Blizzard who put millions of dollars into the game. The same thing would happen with Diablo2, 3, and Starcraft 2.
Overrusing it is also dangerous, becouse it will make a lot of absurds pretty soon. But involving in the CONTRACTS is just intolerable. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 07:05 mprs wrote:
On a more personal note, I really could not give a fuck about Kespa. And I'm not talking about the way the company runs. Lets ignore the fact that they run their teams similar to a military than the actual military. Lets ignore the fact that they control the ever living shit out of their players, as to not allow them to participate in any non-kespa-sanctioned tournaments (usually any tournaments outside of Korea). And last but not least, lets ignore the fact that they DQ'd players because they hit their enter key on accident and typed "/". The reason I don't care is because Kespa really does not care about E-sports out of Korea. They have done nothing to grow it outside of Korea (ok a match in China isn't really "outside of Korea"). However, If E-sports were to grow outside of Korea (you know, where all of us live), it would probably be due to Blizzard. This is why I want Blizzard to succeed and not Kespa.
"Dont giving fuck about KESPA" means "dont giving fuck about e-sport at all". This is the basic thing you dont understand. They are the true pioneers in profesional e-sport, the only thing that prevents any e-sport industry from stagnation. They dont slow down the e-sport abroad, in fact- they really did the opposite. Samsung, the company involved in KeSPA was the one that sponsored the very first WCG as i remember exacly. I think I worded that last paragraph wrong. It was written in the perspective of a North American gamer. In this way, it would be a natural selfish thing to want Blizzard to win. Why? Because Blizzard has a better chance of making what was happening in Korea happen in the US, maybe even better. Kespa on the other hand, has no real prospects of growing e-sports anywhere else (aside from being an example of success, but for some reason most people who talk about kespa talk about the negatives anyway). Yes Kespa is not entitled to expand anywhere else, they are the KOREAN e-sports association. But this is also the main reason why I don't "care" (note: not hate, not want to lose, not any other thing. Just care). I never knew the BW pro-scene existed until I watched a Blizzcon. Saw that these guys were amazing, and then later learned about everything. Then later found out they weren't the best because Kespa didn't want their players participating in tourney for a possible 75k prize.
I don't think you understand. The main reason we don't have e-sports in the west is because we don't have enough interest. Especially not for RTS games.
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It's so tempting and easy to have a page-long judgment on this article that was reportedly sewn together from bot-translated pieces of interview.. I almost did..
However, the art is not to.. as the truth is always somewhere in the middle. It's impossible to have any opinion on this, the source is too vague. No one of us was there. People tend to mix their own opinion in stuff that's posted on the internet..
.. please.. continue..
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Yea, and every now and then there will be a guy who jump into the middle of an argument, acting like he is the most evolved homo-sapient on earth talking to little monkeys, saying "your arguments are stupid and worthless, so i have nothing to say about it, but please.. continue.."
If you have nothing to contribute (be it that you are too evolved to participate in this barbaric activity, or whatever other divine reasons that you have), please by all means, dont stoop so low as to post into the middle of our pathetic conversation.
@ mprs
In my opinion, you are grossly delusional if you think that Blizzard winning this will mean that chances for E-Sport in North America are any better at all (of course assuming that to you, how ruining things for other people (ones who appreciate Korean E-Sport) doesnt have the smallest speck of significance, and only E-Sport in N.America matters at all).. Reasons have been mentioned many times before
1/ People at your place looks at games and say: "ROFLMAO NERDS, they are playing GAMES!!".. This both discourage players from honing their skills, as well as prevent any chance of a Games channel to ever appear on television.
2/ Blizz knows this, thats why they base their Global Star-League in Korea, despite the fact that in Korea, they face direct competition from Brood War, whereby everywhere else in the world, SC2 is free reign w/o any competition.
3/ Blizz kills games to make way for their new releases. This alone kills any hope for a stable E-Sport scene, should Blizz be allowed total control.
4/ Blizz doesnt tailor their games to improve level of gameplay. They tailored their game in a way that ensure them total control and ultimately maximum profit, it would have proabably been acceptable if not for the fact that it ruins the possibility for professional-level gameplay (yes im talking about the absence of LAN). Other in-game support are poor as well. But they made retarded stuffs to earn $$ like name-changing (compeletely irrelevant compared to Chat Room n stuffs).
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If proleague dies because of blizzard i am boycotting every freaking products from them from now on ..
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Boxer > Starcraft.
Therefore:
Korea > Blizzard.
End of discussion.
(Also, since I think it needs mentioning: Broodwar >>>>> WoL)
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On October 11 2010 23:52 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard. Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Once again someone fails to do their homework. It's not about refusing to pay royalties, maybe if you did your research you could crawl out of the rock Blizzard created for you to live under.
you think I'm living under a rock Blizzard created? that's retarded. Face it, no blizzard, no kespa, no kespa, no esports. we know this, so why rehash the same bullshit over and over and whine bout blizzard. let them hash it out, 95% of the people voicing their oh so righteous opinions on this board probably dont even have the full story
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 12 2010 03:47 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 23:52 zenMaster wrote:On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard. Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Once again someone fails to do their homework. It's not about refusing to pay royalties, maybe if you did your research you could crawl out of the rock Blizzard created for you to live under. you think I'm living under a rock Blizzard created? that's retarded. Face it, no blizzard, no kespa, no kespa, no esports. we know this, so why rehash the same bullshit over and over and whine bout blizzard. let them hash it out, 95% of the people voicing their oh so righteous opinions on this board probably dont even have the full story
No Kespa, no esports, no overhyped SC2. BW dies within a few years of release / when WC3 is released.
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On October 12 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote:
If proleague dies because of blizzard i am boycotting every freaking products from them from now on ..
Yes, join me in my boycott! I'm boycotting SC2 (I'm not buying the game, and I'm not watching GSL) until I know that the BW-scene lives. ^__^
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On October 12 2010 04:04 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote:
If proleague dies because of blizzard i am boycotting every freaking products from them from now on .. Yes, join me in my boycott! I'm boycotting SC2 (I'm not buying the game, and I'm not watching GSL) until I know that the BW-scene lives. ^__^
Same here! At first I was tempted to buy it, but then I realized that playing a game with so many flaws just because it's got automated match-making is not worth it.
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On October 12 2010 03:50 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:47 PlaGuE_R wrote:On October 11 2010 23:52 zenMaster wrote:On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard. Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Once again someone fails to do their homework. It's not about refusing to pay royalties, maybe if you did your research you could crawl out of the rock Blizzard created for you to live under. you think I'm living under a rock Blizzard created? that's retarded. Face it, no blizzard, no kespa, no kespa, no esports. we know this, so why rehash the same bullshit over and over and whine bout blizzard. let them hash it out, 95% of the people voicing their oh so righteous opinions on this board probably dont even have the full story No Kespa, no esports, no overhyped SC2. BW dies within a few years of release / when WC3 is released.
Never knew Kespa was some e-sport god that can pick any game and make it popular. Maybe, just maybe they picked Starcraft because it was already one of the most popular game at the time?
If BW wasn't as successful, we probably would of gotten SC MMO instead of WOW. The fact that BW gotten popular forced blizzard to make Sc2 a decade later and create a game that lacks significant innovation from the original formula. All their early attempts to create new units and concept for sc2 was shot down by fans demanding for BW in 3D. I highly doubt the progaming scene actually made that much more money for blizzard. Fan girls don't play starcraft, the majority of sc players are casuals and majority of people who watch starcraft, watch for the sake of watching.
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In the context of American law, Blizzard's case is pretty open-and-shut. For those of you who can't understand why people think KeSPA should have it their way, it's simple:
Edit: Let me rephrase it: Which scenario promotes the general welfare better and offers more financial incentive to companies? Open distribution of the product through competitive gaming outlets, thus providing free advertising for the games? Or a world where companies can license products deemed worthy by competitive gamers?
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On October 12 2010 04:24 FishForThought wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:50 buhhy wrote:On October 12 2010 03:47 PlaGuE_R wrote:On October 11 2010 23:52 zenMaster wrote:On October 11 2010 23:43 PlaGuE_R wrote:
I totally agree! fuck blizzard! how DARE THEY make Brood War????? and how DARE THEY make SC2? and how DARE THEY make WC3?
....hold on a second, aren't those 3 games the most competitive RTS games there are? hey, correct me if i'm wrong but didnt BW spawn e-sports?
boo blizzard! booo! you suck. you guys need to realize that there are laws when it comes to making profits off of someone else's work, and this is just as much about KeSPA being douchebags as it is about blizzard being arrogant asses. Rooting for either is retarded. Backing KeSPA is retarded, 'oh there wouldnt be a pro scne without kespa' well there wouldnt be a fucking kespa without blizzard. Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Once again someone fails to do their homework. It's not about refusing to pay royalties, maybe if you did your research you could crawl out of the rock Blizzard created for you to live under. you think I'm living under a rock Blizzard created? that's retarded. Face it, no blizzard, no kespa, no kespa, no esports. we know this, so why rehash the same bullshit over and over and whine bout blizzard. let them hash it out, 95% of the people voicing their oh so righteous opinions on this board probably dont even have the full story No Kespa, no esports, no overhyped SC2. BW dies within a few years of release / when WC3 is released. Never knew Kespa was some e-sport god that can pick any game and make it popular. Maybe, just maybe they picked Starcraft because it was already one of the most popular game at the time?
They didn't make BW popular, they elevated BW from a simple game to an industry. BW without Kespa would be like the Dota scene.
On October 12 2010 04:37 MichaelJLowell wrote:
In the context of American law, Blizzard's case is pretty open-and-shut. For those of you who can't understand why people think KeSPA should have it their way, it's simple:
Edit: Let me rephrase it: Which scenario promotes the general welfare better and offers more financial incentive to companies? Open distribution of the product through competitive gaming outlets, thus providing free advertising for the games? Or a world where companies can license products deemed worthy by competitive gamers?
It's not that clear cut, mainly because there has been no precedent to this scenario, and because blizzard gave non-verbal consent to Kespa by not sending a cease-or-desist until 2007. Kespa has a case, it's unclear how strong it is though.
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It's not that clear cut, mainly because there has been no precedent to this scenario, and because blizzard gave non-verbal consent to Kespa by not sending a cease-or-desist until 2007. Kespa has a case, it's unclear how strong it is though.
That's the only thing KeSPA has going for it. The most relevant precedent I can think of is Williams Electronics v. Arctic International. Essentially, Artic International made bootleg versions of Defender. Arctic argued they were not infringing Williams Electronics' copyright because they could not own it; the sounds and graphics (the position and occurence of which changed in every playthrough) were not "fixed in a tangible medium of expression" (the wording used in the 1976 Copyright Act). Arctic then argued the player owned the copyright on their playthrough because their individual playthrough constituted a "fixed" expression. Arctic lost big.
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On October 12 2010 05:49 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +It's not that clear cut, mainly because there has been no precedent to this scenario, and because blizzard gave non-verbal consent to Kespa by not sending a cease-or-desist until 2007. Kespa has a case, it's unclear how strong it is though. That's the only thing KeSPA has going for it. The most relevant precedent I can think of is Williams Electronics v. Arctic International. Essentially, Artic International made bootleg versions of Defender. Arctic argued they were not infringing Williams Electronics' copyright because they could not own it; the sounds and graphics (the position and occurence of which changed in every playthrough) were not "fixed in a tangible medium of expression" (the wording used in the 1976 Copyright Act). Arctic then argued the player owned the copyright on their playthrough because their individual playthrough constituted a "fixed" expression. Arctic lost big.
But, Kespa has purchased versions of the game. And really, Blizzard somewhat endorsed Kespa, when it invited progamers to play for Blizzcon. Thus, the situation is different from Arctic vs Williams. Kespa was using legal versions of the game for a considerable length of time with tacit approval from Blizzard. If this case occurred in 2001 or 2002, Blizzard would win undoubtedly if Kespa did not make a deal, but 10 years later, Blizzard would have a hard time justifying not intervening at an earlier time.
I'm not sure about the law regarding silent approval by a company regarding IP, so if any lawyers can clarify, it'll be great.
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If this case occurred in 2001 or 2002, Blizzard would win undoubtedly if Kespa did not make a deal, but 10 years later, Blizzard would have a hard time justifying not intervening at an earlier time.
Don't worry. KeSPA ain't grand, but I'm rooting for this scenario. Sounds to me like home field is going to be everything (i.e. whether it's argued in a Korean or American court).
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On October 12 2010 07:01 buhhy wrote:
I'm not sure about the law regarding silent approval by a company regarding IP, so if any lawyers can clarify, it'll be great.
Na you are pretty close. It's a lot likely implied agreeement. Like someone said before there is no precedent like this. The case is a lot complex because there was no money involved between that time. One has to calculate if 'free advertisement' should be consideration. Although it would be hard to argue it isn't since so many SC were sold in Korea. It's not clear cut so I can see it go either way.
On October 12 2010 07:10 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +If this case occurred in 2001 or 2002, Blizzard would win undoubtedly if Kespa did not make a deal, but 10 years later, Blizzard would have a hard time justifying not intervening at an earlier time. Don't worry. KeSPA ain't grand, but I'm rooting for this scenario. Sounds to me like home field is going to be everything (i.e. whether it's argued in a Korean or American court).
Naw... IP laws are same for any country so it shouldn't matter.
Home field has nothing to do with law, or at least it shouldn't. We got to trust the repectable judges on this one Korean or American.
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On October 12 2010 00:59 mprs wrote:
I think I worded that last paragraph wrong. It was written in the perspective of a North American gamer. In this way, it would be a natural selfish thing to want Blizzard to win. Why? Because Blizzard has a better chance of making what was happening in Korea happen in the US, maybe even better. Kespa on the other hand, has no real prospects of growing e-sports anywhere else (aside from being an example of success, but for some reason most people who talk about kespa talk about the negatives anyway). Yes Kespa is not entitled to expand anywhere else, they are the KOREAN e-sports association. But this is also the main reason why I don't "care" (note: not hate, not want to lose, not any other thing. Just care).
I never knew the BW pro-scene existed until I watched a Blizzcon. Saw that these guys were amazing, and then later learned about everything. Then later found out they weren't the best because Kespa didn't want their players participating in tourney for a possible 75k prize.
Blizzard doesn't want to emulate what happened in Korea in the US. They don't want corporate teams because corporations can work together to undermine Blizzard by boycotting Blizzard tournaments if-they-don't-get-what-they-want. These corporations, and their players, don't depend on tournament winnings and/or sponsorships for their livelihood unlike other "progamers." It is a side business for PR.
The current method of SC2 prize hunters is ideal for them; they get all the advertising benefits without any of the negatives.
Also, I have no idea what you're talking about with Kespa not sending their "best" to Blizzcon. Unless you think the likes of sAviOr or NaDa weren't among the best. The only argument you could make was that in 2009, Flash and Iris didn't go for whatever reason, but that had nothing to do with Kespa. By the way, the prize was 25k for first.
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On October 12 2010 04:24 FishForThought wrote:
I highly doubt the progaming scene actually made that much more money for blizzard. Fan girls don't play starcraft, the majority of sc players are casuals and majority of people who watch starcraft, watch for the sake of watching.
What made SC the most popular RTS in history? HYPE. What made so many hype? KOREAN PROFESIONAL ESPORT. Before that "casuals" you are talking about or rewievers could argued that Red Alerts, Total Anihilation or any other RTS were better, but after first WCG and later first PL made SC the most hyped RTS. 4 milions copies in Korea was sold not only becouse of BW awsomeness, but becouse of HYPE.
You are delusional if you really think that Sc could be succesfully sold for so long without that.
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Canada11297 Posts
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
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@ Falling
I was trying to reply to you but then i realised that i have no idea whats the point you are trying to make. You said 1/ Blizz made Starcraft 2/ Starcraft is awesome, but then what? oO
@FishForThought
Sure Fangirls dont play Starcrafts, but if they adore guys who are awesome at Starcraft, some boys will buy it, and practice. You used some random logic to argue that proscene didnt matter, but how did you conviniently ignore the fact that over half of Brood War's sales were in Korea? Coincidence?
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On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
We all know Starcraft is a solid and fun game. But i don't see how this relates to the conversation.
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Canada11297 Posts
My point was primarily directed at hithat, which downplays Blizzard's role in SCBW's success. Hype without substance is a flash in the pan. (I'm not entirely convinced of the whole SCBW was a mistake gone right/ Blizzard was/ is made up of fools. Obviously they didn't envision how far it would go, but they put a hell of an effort into it.)
Beyond that, it seems this blog from dubious sources of whom we cannot determine the author's vested interests, who will not stand by his article then actually contributes little to our actual understanding. Though I guess it does give a good excuse to argue our strongly held views on IP rights and the evilness or lackthe0erof of either of the companies.
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Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On October 12 2010 22:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
Which team do you support?
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On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life
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On October 13 2010 00:16 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years. I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life
E-Sports definitely helped it, but Starcraft is popular and has most of it's success because it is made by blizzard.
In the western and european countries, most gamers tend to accept that a product is good and worth buying simply because of who developed it.
before StarCraft, blizzard was already accepted as a A+ developer. The game is successful because it is a good game. Esports is so successful BECAUSE of Starcraft. not the other way around.
You must always give the most respect to the developer. It is their product. They own it. Respect for IP laws is the foundation of respectful and proper business. Without IP laws it would be impossible for anyone to make any money. What if people could just steal starcraft, change a few things and sell it themselves?
The issue here is that Korea is not respecting these laws. If blizzard says you cant use their game without paying them, you can't. Simple as that. Korea _will_ give into blizzards requests because if they dont the US will enforce it, as they should. You must respect the owner of the product.
Do I agree with blizzard on this? Not entirely. I think they should set up some compensation system. They will simply make a profit based on the success of the prodcasting. A percentage cut. not an entire flat rate.
The issue here is the following;
Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be.
Just my ideas. Obviously I'm a little biased because I develop games for a living, but I hate blizzards guts right now for trying to end BW... but I understand where they are coming from.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 Nu11 wrote:
Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be.
They were selling the rights to broadcast their tournament, Proleague. No one would pay them if it was simply for the rights to broadcast Starcraft. They had a product to offer in return. Your analogy with the World Cup is flawed in that the World Cup is a tournament; FIFA are not the creators of the sport.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 00:16 hitthat wrote:On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years. I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life E-Sports definitely helped it, but Starcraft is popular and has most of it's success because it is made by blizzard. In the western and european countries, most gamers tend to accept that a product is good and worth buying simply because of who developed it. before StarCraft, blizzard was already accepted as a A+ developer. The game is successful because it is a good game. Esports is so successful BECAUSE of Starcraft. not the other way around. You must always give the most respect to the developer. It is their product. They own it. Respect for IP laws is the foundation of respectful and proper business. Without IP laws it would be impossible for anyone to make any money. What if people could just steal starcraft, change a few things and sell it themselves? The issue here is that Korea is not respecting these laws. If blizzard says you cant use their game without paying them, you can't. Simple as that. Korea _will_ give into blizzards requests because if they dont the US will enforce it, as they should. You must respect the owner of the product. Do I agree with blizzard on this? Not entirely. I think they should set up some compensation system. They will simply make a profit based on the success of the prodcasting. A percentage cut. not an entire flat rate. The issue here is the following; Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be. Just my ideas. Obviously I'm a little biased because I develop games for a living, but I hate blizzards guts right now for trying to end BW... but I understand where they are coming from.
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much.
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Canada11297 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much.
But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering.
As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.)
It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money.
Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment.
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United States11390 Posts
On October 12 2010 22:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
??
They are still there in all the same forums that they have existed in before. (Featured news, BW forums, replays etc.)
They just aren't in the community news and headlines forum if that is what you are referring to.
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On October 13 2010 07:44 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much. But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering. As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.) It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money. Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment.
Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension.
KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG).
I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent!
For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
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Urgg.. Blizz fans are getting significantly more desperate in their arguments.. Blizz are suddenly trying to address progamer's living condition now, through killing off BW.. Its 7am now (havnt slept) so in the off chance that you (Falling) are trolling, i wont feed you.
Also, whats with the current standard of pracising 8-10 hours a day? Is there something wrong?.. Half the time it is the player who want to train more, not like they are forced to at all.. And imo you are seriously delusional if you think Blizz cares about progamers' living condition or training hours or stuffs like that.
Peace out.
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On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 07:44 Falling wrote:On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much. But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering. As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.) It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money. Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment. Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension. KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG). I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent! For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
40 million dollars? What are they eating, golden ramen or what?
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On October 11 2010 10:53 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now Please read the thread before commenting... seriously, this was posted 2 pages ago: Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 16:03 ffreakk wrote:
@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself. Do those conditions sound reasonable? I think not. Kespa also agreed to paying royalties, but did not agree to any of the other above terms.
Sorry i didnt read but there are quite a few pages and im not going to read all of them. Thanks for posting back with the demands. I read them and even though it seems real harsh, i think they probably have the right to all that. I think its messed up, but thats how it works. Blizzard did just sit idly by and definitely sort of supported progaming in korea, especially with inviting the players to blizzcon and stuff like that. But even though they seemed friendly at the time, they dont have to be. They didnt sign anything, and it makes complete sense that they now try to pwn kespa when they have a competing product out. I think its a dick move but thats how companies and stuff work. Blizzard can just say, hey kespa, you cant ever use my games to make money anymore. Its cold for sure, but yeah.... I love bw too, but im just looking at it without bias. Again this is just my opinion, maybe i'm still misinformed.
Basically what im saying is this
Kespa uses blizz game, blizz doesnt do anything
all of a sudden they want a trillion dollars for every second bw stays on tv.
Horrible deal for kespa, but they cant do anything because blizz can demand whatever price they want, regardless of how unreasonable it is. no?
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Hope this gets resolved soon and we get some BW back. SC2 doesn't deserve fame at the cost of a dead Brood War.
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On October 13 2010 10:20 Emon_ wrote:
Why the hell doesn't Blizzard step in and side with BW? It's their game, and a scene that is nowhere near dead unless they interfere and start setting up negotiations that aren't going ANYWHERE!!! Frustration is reaching critical levels. Hope they gobble good on that SC2 log, and that people become wise to their ways and support some other game instead.
yeah its almost like they WANT bw to die. Not sarcasm, i just think that MAYBE this is true.
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Canada11297 Posts
On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension.
KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG).
I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent!
For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
You'll note I said quite possible that Bliz would be interested in the work conditions. Beyond that, I wouldn't forsee Bliz intruding in the SCBW scene despite the terms of conditions. That is, I see Bliz as essentially non-interventionist, but is concerned with possible image issues and making sure their IP is protected/ have monetary compensation for broadcasting. So then, working conditions being the only reason for Bliz to step in, and if you and ffreakk think they won't, then I would see Bliz not intruding any further.
I was very careful stating that conditions had nothing to do with money and everything to do with education, social life, and unhealthy amount of hours of practice.
@ffreakk. Not a troll, not ever. But given the current state of emotions, I don't see this thread going anywhere and I would hate to unnecessarily cause you stress, I'll peace out myself.
Cheers.
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Wow, this is so stupid :o. Seriously blizzard take the 300k-500k won and gtfo, trying to fight a company that has influence in the government is just silly. Also gsl overseas=dead since most korean gamers won't even bother and i don't see a place where they could move it so top players can participate. I mean in america there are some good players but it's still no korea. Not to mention the fanbase...
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On October 13 2010 14:29 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension.
KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG).
I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent!
For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours... You'll note I said quite possible that Bliz would be interested in the work conditions. Beyond that, I wouldn't forsee Bliz intruding in the SCBW scene despite the terms of conditions. That is, I see Bliz as essentially non-interventionist, but is concerned with possible image issues and making sure their IP is protected/ have monetary compensation for broadcasting. So then, working conditions being the only reason for Bliz to step in, and if you and ffreakk think they won't, then I would see Bliz not intruding any further. I was very careful stating that conditions had nothing to do with money and everything to do with education, social life, and unhealthy amount of hours of practice. @ffreakk. Not a troll, not ever. But given the current state of emotions, I don't see this thread going anywhere and I would hate to unnecessarily cause you stress, I'll peace out myself. Cheers.
First of all, how can you possibly call what blizzard's doing "non-interventionist". They set up their proxy in Korea (gretech), gave them full rights to broadcasting their games practically for free while making unacceptable demands to KeSPA. They wanted the ownership of every broadcast related to BW. They wanted the control over all league operations and over all the progamers. How on earth is that "non-interventionist"? T______T
How is usurping full control of the whole BW esports scene merely caring for their image? Blizzard has already been compentated enough with hours long "commercials" of their game (and in consequence the sequel) on TV, in prime time slots. StarCraft would've been another forgotten "classic" (old C&C's, AoE series, etc.), played only by a small base of dedicated fans if it wasn't for KeSPA. They (those companies, as well as companies that used to be part of KeSPA, such as e.g. Hanbit Soft) made BW what it is today.
Second of all, explain to me how is blizzard supposed to limit the practice hours of progamers? Make some ingame restrictions? Because right now the vast majority (I wager it's all of them, since those who don't simply retire) of progamers practice more than their required time (8-9 hours for most teams) because they want to (if they do practice more than that, many do not).
KeSPA is doing its best to help create perspectives for retiring progamers. KeSPA also allowed the best progamers gain their celebrity status. Blizzard won't do shit to make the life of progamers better. What progaming needs is more money, more companies investing. Right now blizzard is giving the majority of Korean corporations involved with esports a GIANT FUCK YOU. Blizzard's biggest "accomplishment" is bringing the SC2 scene to the level it was at a decade ago - no proteams, no salaries, progamers struggling to get by - treasure hunting, not esports... Not to mention they have NO IDEA how to handle esports. Look at their maps! They're horrendous!! The key factor in keeping BW alive for so many years was the constant influx of new quality maps. Blizzard doesn't even get that...
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On October 13 2010 17:37 Godstorm wrote:
Wow, this is so stupid :o. Seriously blizzard take the 300k-500k won and gtfo, trying to fight a company that has influence in the government is just silly.
You don't think that Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard or Vivendi have massive pull too?
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@sikyon
Massive pull? 's far as i can tell, they lose whether ur counting money or influence (in Korea of course)
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On October 14 2010 04:57 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 17:37 Godstorm wrote:
Wow, this is so stupid :o. Seriously blizzard take the 300k-500k won and gtfo, trying to fight a company that has influence in the government is just silly. You don't think that Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard or Vivendi have massive pull too?
US government? Please stop with the jokes, they ain't funny.
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Croatia9487 Posts
On October 14 2010 06:01 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 04:57 sikyon wrote:On October 13 2010 17:37 Godstorm wrote:
Wow, this is so stupid :o. Seriously blizzard take the 300k-500k won and gtfo, trying to fight a company that has influence in the government is just silly. You don't think that Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard or Vivendi have massive pull too? US government? Please stop with the jokes, they ain't funny.
I can see the headlines now:
"WW3 started over Starcraft!"
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On October 14 2010 04:57 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 17:37 Godstorm wrote:
Wow, this is so stupid :o. Seriously blizzard take the 300k-500k won and gtfo, trying to fight a company that has influence in the government is just silly. You don't think that Blizzard, Activision-Blizzard or Vivendi have massive pull too?
since they aren't halliburton, enron, or some other oil company with much larger impact on the US economy, no i don't think blizzard/acitivsion has any pull compared to Kespa and their immediate ties with the government
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i hope GSL goes oversees. I want it moved to the US =)
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I think this must be a bad joke. Come neither MM or Korea officials will talk is such fashion.
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On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 07:44 Falling wrote:On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much. But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering. As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.) It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money. Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment. Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension. KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG). I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent! For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
I was about to say... in won, but dollars, WHAT?
CJ spends 100,000 dollars a day. Living conditions must be harsh. Not bad, not bad at all. I wouldn't mind spend 100,000 dollars a day. A team, of people, 100,000 dollars. 40 million dollars a year.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ZHiOj.png)
