Blizzard and Korean Government's negotiations sour - Page 19

ShadeR

Australia7535 Posts

October 10 2010 08:39 GMT

#361

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:

1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons?
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community.
4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control.
5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it?
6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law.
7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal.
8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?

Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.

Problem is....it ain't the same company =[

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

October 10 2010 09:28 GMT

#362

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:

Show nested quote +

1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons?
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community.
4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control.
5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it?
6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law.
7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal.
8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?

Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.

You are talking complete shit. You think eSports did nothing to help BW sales, are you fucking serious? BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea, why do you think that is? Also KeSPA does not make a profit, how many times does this have to be said. Where is this profit you think they are making coming from exactly... its free to go to the games, its free to watch games on TV. Where this revenue stream you seem to assume exists. Running the leagues and teams is just a big money sink and the 'profit' is advertisement for the sponsors. You should be banned just for making up shit really

I honestly can't believe some people, if you're familar with the eSports scene at all and thought about it for more than 2 seconds it's pretty blatant its not profitable. This isn't even a clear cut case of IP rights like you suggest and it could go either way in court it's pretty unprecedented, i have a feeling this could be considered fair use of the product anyway.

Bisu-Fan

Russian Federation3336 Posts

October 10 2010 10:51 GMT

#363

On October 10 2010 17:39 ShadeR wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:

On October 10 2010 13:16 zenMaster wrote:
Blizzard's BW-killing strategies:

1. Keep silent about Korean E-Sports for 7+ years
2. Reap in SC:BW sales with popularity created by E-Sports
3. Create SC2 to milk more money
4. Suddenly want compensation for free advertisement for BW
5. Make a list of unacceptable demands
6. Sell the non-existent IP rights to a proxy puppet
7. Claim Korea not respecting IP rights(unacceptable demands)
8. Insult Minister of Culture
9. ???

That is my very anti-Blizzard take on it. 99% of it are true anyways.

Problem is....it ain't the same company =[

woah woah woah....

the previous post pretty much explained a lot of your arguments... but number 8 just kind of made me mad... Quoting you, "Cultural differences can turn on phrase from compliment to insult" right? well in korea, it's kind of normal to say that when a person who is younger or of less status is rudely not using formal language and etiquette. There recently was a singer who got completely cursed at for appearing in a tv show slouched while sitting next to an actress who debuted 20 years before him... They didn't even talk throughout the show, but just because he was in her presence without having a good posture, everyone went crazy about how rude he was...

Maasa

Netherlands5 Posts

October 10 2010 12:36 GMT

#364

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:

Show nested quote +

1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons?
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community.
4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control.
5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it?
6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law.
7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal.
8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?

Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.

I found point 3 following what you state in point 2 quite ironic.

I'm not sure what the innovative capabilities of Korea has to do with the subject, but looking at the succesful spread of their cultural productions all over Asia, stating that Korea is not very innovative seems quite ignorant and insulting, and makes your post look like merely bashing on Korea.

GinNtoniC

Sweden2945 Posts

October 10 2010 12:56 GMT

#365

wow the PR hit Blizzard would take losing this. As if the entire debate in the first place didn't cost them a lot of negative PR..

ffreakk

Singapore2155 Posts

October 10 2010 14:18 GMT

#366

Yea looking around me i can already see the negative PR that Blizz is taking.. SC2 is the first title of Blizzard that i do not have a copy of (nor do i have any plan to get one), and many friends of mine are also not buying SC2 despite being huge fans of their previous titles (SC, D2, WC3, etc).. I can imagine that we are not the only ones..

Im not even sure if assuming they successfully kill off BW, will the extra viewership -> SC2 sales be able to compensate for all these..

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

October 10 2010 14:24 GMT

#367

I wonder what would've happened if Blizzard decided not to be a bitch and just let KeSPA broadcast SC2. There would probably be progaming teams for SC2 and free advertising.
Don't know why they decided to do this instead.

sCCrooked

Korea (South)1306 Posts

October 10 2010 14:57 GMT

#368

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.

I think the question is are YOU serious? Over half of BW's total sales were in Korea and spurred on by the massive popularity of the E-Sports scene. Esports made BW into what we know it as today. Everything progaming based event/organization/etc has to give massive credit to the Korean scene whether you like it or not.

zenMaster

Canada761 Posts

October 10 2010 15:33 GMT

#369

On October 10 2010 17:01 sk` wrote:

Show nested quote +

1. If they were silent, why would BW be at Blizzcons?
2. Are you serious? BW is super easy to pirate and even more so thanks to iCCup. If you track actual BW sales numbers, there hasn't been any trending outside of the first two years. Korean esports did nothing to help BW sales.
3. Proof? What SC2 community did they create? I've yet to see any new community.
4. Doesn't seem like a "suddenly". Either way, sudden or not, they are entitled to control how their IP is used. If the government ignores this they will set a precedent that puts Korea in the same waste basket as China in terms of IP law and control.
5. See #4. They can control their IP anyway they want. KeSPA has been profiting off Blizz's IP for a very long time and using some of those profits to create competitive games; all of which have failed. KeSPA uses ill-gotten gains to attack the company they are getting those gains from. And now they want to cry over a spanking for it?
6. "Non-existent". Do some homework on IP law.
7. If the government does side with KeSPA then they indeed do not respect IP rights. Besides, Korea isn't exactly known as a bastion of innovation. They see the US and Japan does and make it cheaper. Unlike China, they don't tend to just steal.
8. Cultural differences can turn one phrase from compliment to insult. If the translation is correct, I find it funny how their minister acts like a child, "A company president talking to me like this!"... I mean, really? Who things in terms of status like that?

Anyway, have fun hating the company that made BW. I'm sure that will spur them on to keep making titles for you to enjoy and not just ignore your troll ass completely.

Sweet sweet Blizz fanboy tears.

Biff The Understudy

France7917 Posts

October 10 2010 17:14 GMT

#370

On October 10 2010 23:57 Diminotoor wrote:

Show nested quote +

Exactly.

Also, nobody would give a shit about SC2 if BW hadn't been such a huge success. And the pro-scene is very largely responsible to BW success. I'm quite sure that the game wouldn't have survived 10 years without kespa and Korean scene.

sk`

Japan442 Posts

October 10 2010 18:21 GMT

#371

infinity/Dmi:
If you read my statement, I was talking about the potential for eSports to have an influencing trend, which, the sales for BW were in a quick lump sum early on, not a long leg trend. If eSports provided a bump in sales, it would have done so for a long period of time. However, BW is exceptionally easy to pirate, so in all likelihood, the bump never could materialize.

As proof, Bliz have more than once said the total number of Bnet users versus the actual sales showed that the game was possibly pirated at about an 8:1 ratio.

Also, if it isn't profitable how does KeSPA manage to grow? How do they pay for it all? If there's no profit, they wouldn't be worried about their books being audited. However, they are worried. This contradiction says something.

Also, I didn't pull the fact that KeSPA has used profits gained to promoted competitive game development. Game development isn't cheap. Granted, KeSPA has yet to usurp the king they've been leaching off... from my view, I would see this as the main reason they are trying to get KeSPA in line. A point BW fanboys ignore constantly.

Bisu:
And just the same, if the minister is a person of education and intellect, they know it goes both ways. They know the other party isn't Korean and won't act under Korean cultural norms. If they are a child, then they will react as the translation suggests.

Maasa:
Well, I was speaking on how KeSPA has used profits from BW eSports to fund game development for competitive titles (i.e. shed BW and use their own game), but routinely produced games that just sucked. I don't mean to rag on Korea... but, let's face it, they don't really innovate new products or ideas. Just now where they are economically yet. I don't mean this entirely poorly... thanks to their push on cost/quality (best example, Samsung), companies that do innovate are forced to keep their prices lower to compete after being copied.

For the most part, Korea doesn't steal and re-brand (current economic level of China). They tend to steal, re-design, add new features, and re-brand. To that I respect them and look forward to an era when they are examining latent consumer needs and conducting product development based on them (i.e. riskier ventures with greater returns).

Zen:
Indeed... brilliant retort. Either way, when the lights go out have fun lobbing hate over internet forums. Or, maybe you could... you know, try to see the other side's logic? Iuno... naw, spewing hate will likely get you further. Stay the course.

BW doesn't need KeSPA to survive. eSports does need to take IP rights seriously to survive. Pretty simple solution.

zenMaster

Canada761 Posts

October 10 2010 18:38 GMT

#372

On October 11 2010 03:21 sk` wrote:
Zen:
Indeed... brilliant retort. Either way, when the lights go out have fun lobbing hate over internet forums. Or, maybe you could... you know, try to see the other side's logic? Iuno... naw, spewing hate will likely get you further. Stay the course.

BW doesn't need KeSPA to survive. eSports does need to take IP rights seriously to survive. Pretty simple solution.

I don't need to see the other side of the logic, I am blinded by my love for e-sports. You're the one who needs to revise on your hate on Kespa.
You claim BW doesn't need Kespa to survive, and I ask how is the BW scene doing outside of Korea? Gamers outside of Korea are sheeps, they'll flock to whatever that is new and shiny. Only Korea has proven to sustain real e-sports. The first people to kill SC2 scene will be Blizzard themselves as soon as they come out with WC4. Granted if SC2 even lasts that long lol.
Game companies only care about profit(charging $20 to watch amateurs play a 2 month old game lol. How much does it cost to watch pro BW?), if game developers gets full control of everything involving their product, real e-sports will never develop. Existing games/scenes would be tossed aside to promote their new game.
If you're gullible enough to buy into this "e-sports" created by Blizzard and willing to watch as they destroy your favorite games to promote new games to make more money for themselves, then by all means support them like sheeps, they'll happy to take your money.

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

October 10 2010 19:42 GMT

#373

There's no point arguing with this guy he's just making shit up. BW pirated in an 8:1 ratio, lol. So you think there's 76 million people total who have copies legitimate or otherwise? Do you even have any evidence BW sales were all in one lump sum in Korea? Seriously you are just making shit up in your head to support your pre-existing opinion.

If it is profitable then where is the profit coming from? You're another person that doesn't seem to understand that KeSPA is the sponsors and the sponsors are KeSPA. And if you don't know basic things like this why are you even trying to write up such long uninformed posts.

maybenexttime

Poland5655 Posts

October 10 2010 19:53 GMT

#374

BW has sold roughly 2 million copies between around 2006 and 2009. It has sold over 11 million copies in over a decade's time, which is specifically stated in the wikipedia article.

Without the progaming scene SC2 wouldn't be even half as hyped. It'd be just another Blizzard game, not the sequal to "the greatest RTS of all times."

BW without KeSPA would've been long dead, just like anywhere outside of Korea.

sCCrooked

Korea (South)1306 Posts

October 10 2010 20:07 GMT

#375

On October 11 2010 03:21 sk` wrote:
infinity/Dmi:
If you read my statement, I was talking about the potential for eSports to have an influencing trend, which, the sales for BW were in a quick lump sum early on, not a long leg trend. If eSports provided a bump in sales, it would have done so for a long period of time. However, BW is exceptionally easy to pirate, so in all likelihood, the bump never could materialize.

As proof, Bliz have more than once said the total number of Bnet users versus the actual sales showed that the game was possibly pirated at about an 8:1 ratio.

Also, if it isn't profitable how does KeSPA manage to grow? How do they pay for it all? If there's no profit, they wouldn't be worried about their books being audited. However, they are worried. This contradiction says something.

Also, I didn't pull the fact that KeSPA has used profits gained to promoted competitive game development. Game development isn't cheap. Granted, KeSPA has yet to usurp the king they've been leaching off... from my view, I would see this as the main reason they are trying to get KeSPA in line. A point BW fanboys ignore constantly.

I always read everything before I post. Its very rare if ever you'll find that I just plain old "overlooked" something. If E-Sports has a lasting trend, sales of the game will continue to be noticeable through the years. BW's initial sales weren't even half of the total we see today. The fact that a 12-year old game is still being bought today should send off tons of alarms in your "Ok this worked" section of your brain. It doesn't really matter if BW was pirated or not. SC2 is being pirated too like everything else. Just wait 12 years and see if that ratio doesn't end up being the same or worse than BW's.

If you took their "8:1" ratio of pirating to be accurate, then that means that 88 million people at the very least were interested in your game. That's more then the total population of a lot of countries. How does that not calculate as "success" for the e-sport?

It seems you don't understand business concepts yet. This was my minor in college so allow me to direct you to at least google what "Non-Profit Organizations" are. If you are suggesting that a NPO can't grow from its initial establishment... I will re-refer you to google for many other concepts. The thing is that they might've been making profits so that's probably why they're being cautious right now.

Once again, I question your sources for any of this. My points can all be easily google'd for proof whereas yours sound like they were pulled from some important case files or specific articles which might be more difficult to find. Please cite some so I know you're not just talking out your ass. KeSPA has never been interested in developing its own games competitively though they may re-invest their profits in competitive game development which is in turn putting money into their own product, "E-Sports". Hell, if Activision-Blizzard wasn't being so damn stupid about this whole thing (and if they weren't led by Satan), KeSPA probably would've dumped a shit-ton of money and support into that game too.

aztrorisk

United States896 Posts

October 10 2010 20:10 GMT

#376

I support blizzard

korea, "how dare you speak to a minister this way? Your just a ordinary president of a company"

LOL, I respect that president more than I do the minister

maybenexttime

Poland5655 Posts

October 10 2010 20:19 GMT

#377

On October 11 2010 05:10 aztrorisk wrote:
I support blizzard

korea, "how dare you speak to a minister this way? Your just a ordinary president of a company"

LOL, I respect that president more than I do the minister

You support Blizzard in destroying BW? How nice of you. T____T

Hikko

United States1126 Posts

October 10 2010 20:20 GMT

#378

In regards to pirating, the only South Koreans I've known (all foreign exchange students) all said they only had a pirated version of Brood War that they played on private servers.

KwarK

United States43203 Posts

October 10 2010 20:42 GMT

#379

On October 07 2010 15:40 Lightwip wrote:

Show nested quote +

Do you expect a senior Asian to take that from someone of an inferior position to him? Because that is a hell of an insult in their culture. It's quite important to respect your elders in Asian countries(hence progamers call older players hyung).

I expect a minister of culture to be aware of the culture of others. You don't go into a dispute expecting the other party to conform fully to your own cultural quirks. And in terms of position, the CEO of a multibillion multinational is a hell of a lot more successful than the vice minister for culture.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

October 10 2010 21:09 GMT

#380

On October 11 2010 05:42 KwarK wrote:

Show nested quote +

I suppose that's true.
But I would expect the minister to be somewhat pissed. Also, you don't talk like that to a government official if you want to accomplish something anyways.

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