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Yggdrasil Leaf
221 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote: I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage still trolling... | ||
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FirstProbe
1206 Posts
It wasn't the map or the build order. It wasn't the mechanics or the micro. It was the complete integration of all these facets, in addition to the decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority. Games 1, 2, 5, and to a lesser extent Game 3 demonstrated that Flash is the better player. He came prepared and always looked in control (up til mid-game Game 3). I don't see anyone stopping Flash in the OSL. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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BadWithNames
United States441 Posts
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote: I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage You've got to be kidding. Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise. What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis. | ||
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Apex
United States7227 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:30 BadWithNames wrote: He's one tournament away from the Broodwar Triple Crown. Has anyone ever achieved that before? My memory's a bit rusty so... And what's with all the TvZ imba and all other complaints? For a second, I thought this was a thread from the SC2 forums with the amount of complaining there has been. Leftover rage from being disappointed by a Jaedong loss I guess. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On August 28 2010 23:27 SuperArc wrote: Effort, how can you betray your race like that... I feel the same way. It must be because he is jealous that JD is better. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4735 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:07 FirstProbe wrote: People will say that Jaedong lost game 5 through poor micro. I'm sure that contributed. But in my opinion, Flash won the game, and the series. It wasn't the map or the build order. It wasn't the mechanics or the micro. It was the complete integration of all these facets, in addition to the decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority. Games 1, 2, 5, and to a lesser extent Game 3 demonstrated that Flash is the better player. He came prepared and always looked in control (up til mid-game Game 3). I don't see anyone stopping Flash in the OSL. When you incorporate game 3 to argue that Flash is the better player, everything you write loses it's credibility, no matter how many big words ("decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority") you can fit into one sentence. Besides that, thank you for the translation Smix, and congrats to Flash for a very well played series. | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:46 On_Slaught wrote: I feel the same way. It must be because he is jealous that JD is better. lol so true. you know how it is. it's a zergling eat zergling world. | ||
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BadWithNames
United States441 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:43 Apex wrote: Has anyone ever achieved that before? My memory's a bit rusty so... Mine too. I want to say Nada won dual finals in starleague but didn't win proleague. Which is still gosu. | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote: I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right? | ||
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FirstProbe
1206 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:46 Malinor wrote: When you incorporate game 3 to argue that Flash is the better player, everything you write loses it's credibility, no matter how many big words ("decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority") you can fit into one sentence. Besides that, thank you for the translation Smix, and congrats to Flash for a very well played series. Just because he lost the game doesn't detract from my overall point - unless you're saying he played poorly. He controlled the early-mid game and his execution and game plan was fantastic. He lost because he was too aggressive and he didn't play for late game once zerg hive and expansions were securely up. I was surprised to see him lose. Claiming mutual exclusivity is ridiculous; things are not always black or white. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:41 KristianJS wrote: You've got to be kidding. Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise. What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis. I agree, but I don't think any1 can argue that TvZ gives Terrans a better opportunity to play mindgames. On August 29 2010 04:05 Wings wrote: what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right? First of all, 14CC is still ahead of 3 hatch before pool in econ (I don't have the quote but Ver said it somewhere). Also, Zerg's standard opener is 12 hatch in TvZ. 14 CC just outright beats it, and even if the zerg drone scouts its too late to change your build order. 3 hatch before pool, on the other hand, can be killed or at least severely damaged with an improvised bunker rush if terran scouts it early. On top of that, pool first openings leave you really behind against anything other than 14CC (which terrans player 90% of the time), so it becomes a really tough choice for a zerg, especially in a series of this importance, and its a choice that we tend to oversimplify in retrospect. 3 hatch before pool is very margianlly ahead of going rax --> expand before your first marine, which terran can do safely if he scouts you first or second try. For terran its like " I can risk it and do 14CC, which im most likely gonan end up ahead from, or I can 1 rax expand and be totally safe from everything, and be almost guarenteed to at least end up evenly. Worst case scenario with 1 rax expo is that zerg 3 hatches before pool and you don't scout it first try, in which case you're very very slightly behind. And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right? Yes, but you're hyperbolizing my argument. I don't mean your average joe beating an A- on iccup, but certainly a player of lesser skill can beat some1 of higher skill (like 1 rank difference) with an all in timing push. At the pro level the execution of these kind of builds is fairly similar among most players. Btw no bias here. Terran's my main race in BW and in Sc2, and flash is the player I like and respect the most | ||
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asd_yo
Bulgaria2 Posts
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!! For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. 2 Timing pushes and goddamn gay 14CC win the last game. Even he admitted Jaedong outplayed him in the one game that actually came down to raw skill. Flash I love you and you're still my favorite player, but blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah And Light outplayed Jaedong in 2 intense macro games, only losing the other 3 to muta or zergling all-ins. Before this, Flash crushed Effort in 2 games before losing 2 to early game tactics, and 1 because of his own failed cheese. It's just the nature of Bo5s that sometimes the winner isn't the one that showed the most perfect standard play. Also, peppering your arguments with "gay" and "retarded" makes you look pretty stupid/immature. I wouldn't say anything, but you seem to do it pretty consistently. | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
On August 29 2010 04:30 asd_yo wrote: Hi ;] can someone help me find vods of this match, cuz had some work and watched only the first game... they're up on wfbrood.com (look for the obvious link with the word VOD in it) | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On August 29 2010 05:40 KristianJS wrote: they're up on wfbrood.com (look for the obvious link with the word VOD in it) http://www.wfbrood.com/movie/sc/ Easier =D | ||
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