[Interview] Bigfile MSL 2010 Grand Final Winner! - Page 9

On August 30 2010 15:38 SkyTheUnknown wrote:
imho 150k dollars is not that much for being one of the two greatest active bw players in korea.
a good sc2 player could be able to earn more...

On August 30 2010 21:14 JohannesH wrote:

That's not his salary that's tournament winnings only

On August 30 2010 23:35 Kazius wrote:

That's the prize for just this tournament. He'll get more later on.

On August 30 2010 19:50 crazeh wrote:

sorry...I meant against Flash's 14cc build specifically.

On August 30 2010 23:35 Kazius wrote:

That's the prize for just this tournament. He'll get more later on.

On August 31 2010 00:09 SubtleArt wrote:You're vastly oversimplifying it. It's hard to predict if some1s going 14CC, and I'm sure for many of the games this final jaedong was thinking "he'll expect me to think he's gonna 14CC, so if i pool first he'll rax expand".

The problem is there's way less risk involved from the Terran. If terran 14CCs, the only thing the zerg can do to end up ahead or stop it is go pool first (3 hatch before pool is still behind in economy vs 14CC). On maps like Odd Eye where terran can make a lingtight wall in their natural even 12 pool often arrives too late to stop the wall from being completed (if terran cuts and scv to get his 3rd depot up really quickly then you're usually less than 100 hp away from completing when lings for a 12 pool arrives). The problem with going ling first though is that it leaves you way behind vs any rax first openings (like 1 rax expo), which terrans do 90% of the time.

As you can see there are way less risks involved for Terran.
If terran goes 14CC, he only loses to pool first openings, which isn't a problem because zergs 12hatch over 90% of the time in TvZ.
If terran goes 1 rax expand he's almost 100% guarenteed to at least end up on par, if not ahead, of the zerg (3 hatch before pool is almost the equivalent of going rax CC without building a first marine).

If Zerg goes 12hatch, he either goes even with terran (1 rax expand), or outright loses (14CC)
If Zerg goes pool first, he either beats a 14CC, or he's way behind vs 1 rax expand, which terran does 90% of the time.
If zerg goes 3 hatch before pool, he's slightly ahead of terran's 1 rax, and slightly behind Terran's 14CC, at the risk of outright losing to a bunker rush.

Your "Jaedong's safe play vs Flash was read like a book, its his fault for not pressuring terran" is a ridiculous oversimplification. Sure, in retrospect we see flash had the balls to 14CC so much, but in an actual series of such importance its a way harder choice, especially since prior to the finals flash has very very very very rarely 14CCed a zerg this year (other than that 1 game vs effort on fighting spirit i think, but im not sure) save the last MSL finals (1 full season ago) and the OSL finals (where it completely and utterly backfired on him)

On August 31 2010 06:07 Mumei wrote:


So, how do Zerg players usually deal with this?

On August 31 2010 09:37 SubtleArt wrote:It's really hard to deal with, and its kinda unfair, which is my point.
In most matches though if you get a reputation for 14CC you're gonna get ling rushed a lot. Kinda like how Stork used to have a reputation for 12 Nex in PvT, and it led to him being bunker rushed and BBSed a lot. Flash wisely used in only on the most important stage though, effectively taking his opponent off guard. Not really sure what Jaedong could have done, because flash is equally comfortable cheesing .

On August 31 2010 14:30 Mumei wrote:


I thought so, but I didn't want to over-interpret what you were saying.

0mgVitaminE mentioned in his post that, "Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time." And I think he's right - Zergs that are able to pressure the Terran successfully in the early game seem to have pretty good odds on winning later. I just have trouble seeing what Jaedong could have done differently in Game 1 with regards to harass, assuming he didn't make the blind guess correctly. Muta harass was easily shut down, because of how well Flash prepared for it. And I don't see how Jaedong could have realistically expected to assault the wall at the natural without seeing the same result as in Game 3 of the previous MSL. So, given that, it seemed like once Flash had the 14CC up and running and the wall ready, there wasn't much Jaedong could do to actually pressure Flash or hurt his economy.

That said, could Jaedong not have scouted with his drone in order to not be just guessing in a sort of a "Rock-Paper-Scissors"? Flash, naturally, scouts with his SCV to see what Jaedong is doing and chooses to do whichever response is more beneficial for him (usually 14CC, it seems). Or is even that drone scout too late? The Overlord scout, unfortunately, seems to come far, far too late - not arriving in Game 1 or 2 until Flash had just been finishing up his wall.

I feel like there ought to be some sort of answer to this issue in the early game - if not on Jaedong's part, then on the part of map-makers. It does seem like if it is the case that every opening except pool first loses to 14CC, and every pool first opening loses to 1 Rax Expand, and Flash has 14CC'd 6 times the last 8 times they've met, then it couldn't hurt to just go for a 9 pool once in awhile.

On September 01 2010 00:39 SubtleArt wrote:


Well its almost impossible to pressure Terran without committing a lot and almost going all in. I mean really, how do u pressure them before mutas? Pool first --> ling speed is easily shut down by putting 3 scvs on a ramp. The only reasonable one is to go 12 pool --> gas --> then second hatch for a really fast 2 hatch muta (mutas arrive at 6 minutes instead of 6:30, which is the timing for a normal 12 hatch 00> 2 hatch muta) but that's more or less all in mutas.

Another option is to save larva and build 6 lings after ur pool finishes (still 12 hatching) but the most that's gonna do is force terran to build a bunker at his natural before getting up his 2nd rax. Adding any more lings after that is either committing to an all in zergling break or a semi all in muta ling break. Jaedong did 12p --> lair and won vs flash on matchpoint in the han daetoo MSL but it was mainly because of Flash's late turrets and how obnoxious the cliff behind the mineral line is in on matchpoint. In this map pool none of the maps really lend themselves to muta harass that much.

Drone scouting is an option, but never really fast enough to change your opening vs a 14CC. If you scout so early that u can go pool first after scouting 14CC then you've done yourself more damage than harm. Really the only reasonable option if u scout 14CC and u've 12hatched is to build an additional 3 drones before ur pool, instead of building it on 11, but even this requires a fairly early scout.

But yea, there could have been some effort from the map makers to at least ensure terran can't make a perfectly ling tight wall in their natural or something, that seemed pretty unfair

On September 01 2010 03:08 ggrrg wrote:
Flash truly is a monster.
The OSL final must be JD vs Flash again. And hopefully JD can win the OSL at least, but considering how furios/enthusiastic he must be after this MSL, I believe he can make it.