Flash, "A match with my rival is always fun" "I'll work hard to become the best player"
- You’ve won the MSL twice in a row. ▲ I’m so happy I was able to win twice in a row like this. I’ll try my hardest to become the best player of this generation.
- This is your third time in the MSL finals against Jaedong. ▲ I’ve always thought that of the times I’ve won, my best opponent has always been Jaedong. We also stand right next to each other in rankings at 1st and 2nd. Rather than being fed up with beating the same opponent, the feeling of happiness of having beaten a strong opponent is much greater.
- The mind games played today were incredible. ▲ For sets 1 and 2, I focused on mind games while preparing and for Fighting Spirit, I depended on my own skills. I had a strong strategy prepared for Triathlon but it ended so regrettably that I felt nervous. Thankfully, I feel like the strategy I prepared for the 5th set played out really well so I won easier than expected.
- Your schedule must’ve been really intense – wasn’t that difficult? ▲ Though there is an element of receiving a lot of stress from a heavy schedule, right now I think it’s my blessing. It is physically draining as well but after continuously winning, I think I’m able to overcome that. There’s still the OSL left so I’ll have to focus in the rest of my practice.
- If you end up playing Jaedong again in the OSL finals don’t you think you’ll be sick of it? ▲ I guess that could happen but because I’ve never played in a great stage abroad before, I want to play Jaedong on a foreign stage as well. But for now, I’m solely focused on beating free.
- Are you confident that you’ll be able to win both individual league titles? ▲ I have more than enough confidence right now. Because of the way I was able to win today, I’ve attained a confidence where I believe I can beat no matter who I play against now. I’ll make sure to earn both individual title leagues this season since I wasn’t able to do so last season.
- How did you practice? ▲ My teammates helped me out the most. After that, EffOrt and Woongjin’s Neo.G_Soulkey helped me out a lot as well so I was able to polish my strategies. As I beat those players, I was able to gain a lot of confidence.
- Your prize money this year alone amounts to 180,000,000 won. ▲ I give all my prize money to my parents and receive allowance from them and use it. If I keep it all, I feel like I’d spend it recklessly so I give it to my parents. I had no idea I earned so much money this year. After hearing the amount just now, honestly I was a bit shocked.
- How did you feel when you were up 2:0 and Jaedong caught up to you 2:2? ▲ Whenever I’m up 2:0, I always feel great. So for the 3rd set I was prepared for an intense fight but I feel like in terms of sheer ability I was outplayed so there was nothing I could do about that. After losing the 4th set, that’s when I started feeling shaken up but through the advice the coaching staff gave me, they pulled me out of it. Because of them, I think I was able to demonstrate my gaming ability properly in the 5th set.
- Is there a moment you remember most from this season? ▲ There were many moments during this season that I felt I was in danger. Of those moments, I think the semifinals bo5 against Fantasy stands out a lot. However, the moment that stands out the most is definitely game 5 of the finals… I think it’s because in that moment I was sure I had won the whole thing.
- After Jaedong lost, he seemed really upset. ▲ I wanted to be the first to greet him afterwards for a good game but after seeing how disappointed he was, I couldn’t approach him. I hope Jaedong hyung doesn’t feel too frustrated here and overcomes it so that we can continue to do well together.
- It feels like the fervor for LeeSsangRok has dropped recently. ▲ During the Nate MSL where I lost, the fans’ anticipation was amazing, and during the Hana Daetoo MSL, the anticipation was also great but this time since it was the 3rd time in a row, I think it dropped a lot. Because of that, I was surprised as well. I thought the fans would continue to look forward to it because it would be a match between two strong players, but I think they’ve grown sick of watching a matchup between the same two players. I think the fans will enjoy it more if other players work hard to get to the finals so we have more variety in matchups.
- Last words you want to say? ▲ I’m so ecstatic that I’ve won, and if I didn’t have the fan’s support all through now, the Flash I am today wouldn’t be here either. I want to thank my coaching staff, teammates, and the executive staff. I also want to extend my gratitude towards my parents who are always cheering by my side and to EffOrt and Neo.G_Soulkey who helped me practice for today’s match.
I knew it lol. Flash always practices with effort and the woongjin zergs. I think jaedong should start practicing with more terrans such as light and sea ^^
I can see people being bored of watching the same finals but it's not their fault. Other pros need to step up their game. Both semis went to 5 games and it was pretty close but the best players came out on top.
Looking forward to a JD vs Flash OSL finals though as it will be in Shanghai and I am sure the fervor there to see these 2 in the finals will be incredible and the turnout should be fantastic.
Thanks for the translations! Wow that's a lot of money he's won. Congratulations Flash. And curse you Effort and Soulkey! lol Looking forward to OSL. Korean fervor isn't going to get any higher, I doubt Stork and Free will get though. I hope one of them does, but I think we might get another FvJ
Damn, highest paid progamer also earning the most money from leagues, as well. Even if Flash ever wants to get out of progaming, if his parents have been saving his money well then he's seriously going to be a millionaire by the time he's done.
Don't let it get to your head Flash... The OSL is bigger and badder, and with an instant loss on Zergliner you'll need to pick up your strategy and mind-games.
edit: woah... I just noticed that I discarded free and Stork. Perhaps if free was playing JD (with his super-sexy late game vZ) and Stork vs. Flash (with his patented vT skills) it wouldn't have been quite as extreme, but let's be honest... JD and Flash are in a league of their own.
On August 28 2010 22:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Damn, highest paid progamer also earning the most money from leagues, as well. Even if Flash ever wants to get out of progaming, if his parents have been saving his money well then he's seriously going to be a millionaire by the time he's done.
Let's just assume Flash only got money from KT and the winning prizes. That's like approx. 300 grands per year. If he does well in the next 2 years then he'll definitely be a millionaire.
Oh and Flash doesn't look like the type that buys golden Rolex *cough*prisonbonjwa*cough* so i guess he is not spending much. His food and accommodation are covered by KT anyway.
On August 28 2010 22:01 Smix wrote: - You’ve won the MSL twice in a row. ▲ I’m so happy I was able to win twice in a row like this. I’ll try my hardest to become the best player of this generation.
Oh but you already are, Flash. Imagine winning the OSL as well though - Golden Mouse, dual league winner, topped off by the PL victory. Too good.
On August 28 2010 22:01 Smix wrote: - You’ve won the MSL twice in a row. ▲ I’m so happy I was able to win twice in a row like this. I’ll try my hardest to become the best player of this generation.
Oh but you already are, Flash. Imagine winning the OSL as well though - Golden Mouse, dual league winner, topped off by the PL victory. Too good.
Wow that'd be pretty baller.
Someone edited out their comment about the congratulate jaedong answer - I fixed it!
Flash practices with Effort and Soulkey while Jaedong is stuck with Bee and Sexy lol.
I hate to say it, but unless JD can pull off a win in the OSL/WCG finals against Flash, this is no longer a rivalry (much like Kal vs JD) until he can win again.
wow hes not in his 20s isnt he? damn flash has all the time in the world (well at least until BW is overshadowed by SC2 and Blizz) to break nada's record.. congrats flash! @ the tyrant: destroy flash in the OSL!! jaedong fighting!!!!
On August 28 2010 23:11 Wings wrote: 180,000,000 Won.. $150,000 USD..... from prize money alone.........
Flash, you monster.
Daily esports estimates that with this prize money along with his contract along with winning PL Flash should earn between 400,000,000 Won ~ 500,000,000 this year
The current record holder for most earnings in a season is Savior with around 400,000,000 Won earned in the 05-06 season
On August 28 2010 23:11 Wings wrote: 180,000,000 Won.. $150,000 USD..... from prize money alone.........
Flash, you monster.
Daily esports estimates that with this prize money along with his contract along with winning PL Flash should earn between 400,000,000 Won ~ 500,000,000 this year
The current record holder for most earnings in a season is Savior with around 400,000,000 Won earned in the 05-06 season
I wonder what the diff would be after adjustments for inflation/deflation. It still ridiculous regardless.
On a random note: I don't think 180M won would equal 150k U.S$ because things in Korea is cheaper than U.S (in terms of cost of living). 180M won feels like 180K U.S$.
On August 28 2010 23:27 ShcShc wrote: On a random note: I don't think 180M won would equal 150k U.S$ because things in Korea is cheaper than U.S (in terms of cost of living). 180M won feels like 180K U.S$.
Isn't the opposite?
At least I thought Seoul was supposed to be one of the most expensive cities in the world, and it's a pretty small country, so it seems unlikely to vary drastically across the nation.
Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. 2 Timing pushes and goddamn gay 14CC win the last game. Even he admitted Jaedong outplayed him in the one game that actually came down to raw skill. Flash I love you and you're still my favorite player, but blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Man, as much as I love Flash and Jaedong...I really hope Stork or free (preferably Stork) manages to break through in the OSL. Do we really need another season of dual Flash/Jaedong finals?
But, of course, congratulations to Flash and well-played, Jaedong! If it wasn't obvious before, then now it is that Flash is THE best player of this generation.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
I believe game 5 was the so called "mind fuck". Flash recently (didnt see game one so i dont know,) but JD's build was intended to SMASH a mech build on PR. Flash's build was a old and well known strat named 4 raxx +1 play. Later flash added it to 7 raxx i believe with tank and vessel support.
On August 29 2010 00:37 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:what did he abuse, silly man?
He's (I think) referring to the disparity in ability to scout / prevent scouting, where the Zerg player is unable to make his way into the Terran base to see a tech switch or prepare for a weird timing push, while the Terran player has an easier time making that initial scout and continuing to be aware of changes in tech through that early game period.
I don't know how accurate this is, or whether this is just an issue with certain maps, and not an issue inherent to the match-up (it being a map dependent problem would make sense to me, at least) but I think it is what he meant.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
Games 3 and 5 were quite good. And Flash wasn't "abusing" some inherent imbalance, just as Jaedong wasn't on Triathlon when he went mass lings. They just predicted/scouted greedy play by their opponents and reacted accordingly.
On August 28 2010 23:50 oN_Silva wrote: jaedong is the only person my gf could cheat with and i would understand xD
Haha I know what you mean!
Aww he sounded so magnanimous in the interview! "I wanted to be the first to greet him afterwards for a good game but after seeing how disappointed he was, I couldn’t approach him." So adorable...
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
Btw, is there a jaedong interview? I really wanna hear wat he had to say about it (and 14CC). If not, guess we'll just have to wait for a winners interview after he tears stork a new asshole
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
People will say that Jaedong lost game 5 through poor micro. I'm sure that contributed. But in my opinion, Flash won the game, and the series.
It wasn't the map or the build order. It wasn't the mechanics or the micro. It was the complete integration of all these facets, in addition to the decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority. Games 1, 2, 5, and to a lesser extent Game 3 demonstrated that Flash is the better player. He came prepared and always looked in control (up til mid-game Game 3). I don't see anyone stopping Flash in the OSL.
Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
You've got to be kidding.
Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise.
What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis.
On August 29 2010 03:30 BadWithNames wrote: He's one tournament away from the Broodwar Triple Crown.
Has anyone ever achieved that before? My memory's a bit rusty so...
And what's with all the TvZ imba and all other complaints? For a second, I thought this was a thread from the SC2 forums with the amount of complaining there has been. Leftover rage from being disappointed by a Jaedong loss I guess.
On August 29 2010 03:07 FirstProbe wrote: People will say that Jaedong lost game 5 through poor micro. I'm sure that contributed. But in my opinion, Flash won the game, and the series.
It wasn't the map or the build order. It wasn't the mechanics or the micro. It was the complete integration of all these facets, in addition to the decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority. Games 1, 2, 5, and to a lesser extent Game 3 demonstrated that Flash is the better player. He came prepared and always looked in control (up til mid-game Game 3). I don't see anyone stopping Flash in the OSL.
When you incorporate game 3 to argue that Flash is the better player, everything you write loses it's credibility, no matter how many big words ("decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority") you can fit into one sentence.
Besides that, thank you for the translation Smix, and congrats to Flash for a very well played series.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right?
On August 29 2010 03:07 FirstProbe wrote: People will say that Jaedong lost game 5 through poor micro. I'm sure that contributed. But in my opinion, Flash won the game, and the series.
It wasn't the map or the build order. It wasn't the mechanics or the micro. It was the complete integration of all these facets, in addition to the decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority. Games 1, 2, 5, and to a lesser extent Game 3 demonstrated that Flash is the better player. He came prepared and always looked in control (up til mid-game Game 3). I don't see anyone stopping Flash in the OSL.
When you incorporate game 3 to argue that Flash is the better player, everything you write loses it's credibility, no matter how many big words ("decision making, timing, control, and psychological superiority") you can fit into one sentence.
Besides that, thank you for the translation Smix, and congrats to Flash for a very well played series.
Just because he lost the game doesn't detract from my overall point - unless you're saying he played poorly.
He controlled the early-mid game and his execution and game plan was fantastic. He lost because he was too aggressive and he didn't play for late game once zerg hive and expansions were securely up. I was surprised to see him lose.
Claiming mutual exclusivity is ridiculous; things are not always black or white.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
You've got to be kidding.
Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise.
What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis.
I agree, but I don't think any1 can argue that TvZ gives Terrans a better opportunity to play mindgames.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right?
First of all, 14CC is still ahead of 3 hatch before pool in econ (I don't have the quote but Ver said it somewhere). Also, Zerg's standard opener is 12 hatch in TvZ. 14 CC just outright beats it, and even if the zerg drone scouts its too late to change your build order. 3 hatch before pool, on the other hand, can be killed or at least severely damaged with an improvised bunker rush if terran scouts it early. On top of that, pool first openings leave you really behind against anything other than 14CC (which terrans player 90% of the time), so it becomes a really tough choice for a zerg, especially in a series of this importance, and its a choice that we tend to oversimplify in retrospect. 3 hatch before pool is very margianlly ahead of going rax --> expand before your first marine, which terran can do safely if he scouts you first or second try. For terran its like " I can risk it and do 14CC, which im most likely gonan end up ahead from, or I can 1 rax expand and be totally safe from everything, and be almost guarenteed to at least end up evenly. Worst case scenario with 1 rax expo is that zerg 3 hatches before pool and you don't scout it first try, in which case you're very very slightly behind.
And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right?
Yes, but you're hyperbolizing my argument. I don't mean your average joe beating an A- on iccup, but certainly a player of lesser skill can beat some1 of higher skill (like 1 rank difference) with an all in timing push. At the pro level the execution of these kind of builds is fairly similar among most players.
Btw no bias here. Terran's my main race in BW and in Sc2, and flash is the player I like and respect the most
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. 2 Timing pushes and goddamn gay 14CC win the last game. Even he admitted Jaedong outplayed him in the one game that actually came down to raw skill. Flash I love you and you're still my favorite player, but blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
And Light outplayed Jaedong in 2 intense macro games, only losing the other 3 to muta or zergling all-ins. Before this, Flash crushed Effort in 2 games before losing 2 to early game tactics, and 1 because of his own failed cheese.
It's just the nature of Bo5s that sometimes the winner isn't the one that showed the most perfect standard play.
Also, peppering your arguments with "gay" and "retarded" makes you look pretty stupid/immature. I wouldn't say anything, but you seem to do it pretty consistently.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity. Nobody knows how to beat mid-late game BW terrans these days and everything has already been explored. It takes 2x the skill to beat a BW terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity, because nobody know how to beat terrans these days and everything has already been explored. No matter the skill level, it takes 2x the skill to beat a terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
Yes, Terrans have been dominating everything for last one year. That includes Flash being the only Terran in semi-finals in last 3 OSLs and 2 MSLs before Bigfile. That's just way to much right?
We've seen Z try to hold onto the four bottom or top bases on PR against T and P so often this year, and it almost never seems to work out. It is disappointing to see the winner get to play three maps where the match-up is 60%+ in their favor, especially since an OSL final will likely be the same (replacing Odd-Eye for Grand Line SE, Dreamliner with Triathlon, and FS with EotS). JD was able to overcome this in Nate with an abysmal map-pool, but the perpetual Terran handicapping prevents us from getting an indisputable champion.
Edit: Btw, my favorite part was Flash's sneaky undercover mech.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity, because nobody know how to beat terrans these days and everything has already been explored. No matter the skill level, it takes 2x the skill to beat a terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
Yes, Terrans have been dominating everything for last one year. That includes Flash being the only Terran in semi-finals in last 3 OSLs and 2 MSLs before Bigfile. That's just way to much right?
Looking at the more recent leagues, terrans were dominate. The previous leagues, Flash was just leading the herd to adapt to his style. And now look what happened lol
Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity. Nobody knows how to beat mid-late game BW terrans these days and everything has already been explored. It takes 2x the skill to beat a BW terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
Comparison between SC2 and SC again? It doesn't mater if you play BW when it first come out or if you watch the pro-scene since the beginning. Your claim that it takes 2x more skills to win etc etc just discredit your whole statement.
Obviously, Terran is imbalance because Flash is the only one to ever reach the MSL/OSL final for the past 1-2 years [I think ForGG/Fantasy was the last T]
On August 28 2010 22:07 SimonB wrote: Thanks, Smix.
180,000,000 Korean Won = ~151,343 US Dollars
That doesn't even include his salary.
Well done, Flash!
Yup, together with his salary he likely made more than every single KT player this yeah combined.
When they panned to his parents after the victory, I could only imagine them saying something along the lines of: "good thing we got over our objections to him becoming a progamer... lets go back home and sit on our mountain of cash".
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity. Nobody knows how to beat mid-late game BW terrans these days and everything has already been explored. It takes 2x the skill to beat a BW terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
Comparison between SC2 and SC again? It doesn't mater if you play BW when it first come out or if you watch the pro-scene since the beginning. Your claim that it takes 2x more skills to win etc etc just discredit your whole statement.
Obviously, Terran is imbalance because Flash is the only one to ever reach the MSL/OSL final for the past 1-2 years [I think ForGG/Fantasy was the last T]
I was just answering his question and explaining what I meant. But anyways, people still seem to think Terrans are not imbalanced even though in recent pro-gamer interviews, terrans are said to be imbalanced, takes less task, etc... Everyone seems to agree and I thought it was okay to say but I guess just to say, maybe its not.
Aside from this MSL, Flash was the only T to make it to the semifinals in the last THREE seasons.
With a total of 20 slots available in those league semifinals, Flash took up 5 of them. The other 15 didn't include 1 terran.
If you were to assume the races were equal in probability of taking up a slot, the chances of not a single Terran in the 15 remaining slots is (2/3)^15, which is 1 in 438. The fact is, the races weren't equal in probability because terrans have generally been struggling aside from Flash.
BigFile had 3 terrans in the semifinals, and all of a sudden people scream imba. T is not dominating. Flash is dominating.
On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote: I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
The only game in the series one could claim flash was "riding a 14CC advantage" was game 5, to which JD responded by grabbing 4 base (4 gas) early. Had Flash's first attack failed to kill 1.5, and his last attack failed to kill 12 and 1.5 (again), he would have lost, game was pretty close.
The other 14CCs in the series were after scouting (this must be the 6th time I have to point this out to someone... jeez). Those are JD's fault for 12 hatching on 2 player maps, which Flash scouted, and responded by putting down a 14CC (just as he did in the last MSL). Only game 5 was a blind 14cc (followed by a quick wall-in).
And timing pushes aren't skill? JD got greedy in both games, tried to double expo and power drone, Flash punished him for it. How is that not a valid answer? Is flash supposed to wait patiently in his base until JD takes 6 bases and tells him "ok, all ready now, you can push out"?
On a similar note, JD has been 63.3% vT in the past 12 months, destroying Ts left and right, but when he loses to flash everyone cries out "terran imba". Can't blame "map imba" on PR either (both times) since Flash never took his double gas or went into the lategame like he did vs Zero (man I loved that game).
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
WTH are you smokin? No doubt Flash is the best player in SC atm but NOBODY in their right mind is gonna say hes alot better than JD and untouchable. Proven by the 3-2 score, proven by the fact that JD was favored by most TLers in the poll to win. proven by the fact that he didnt 3-1 in a strongly T favored map pool. Either you dont understand what a bonjwa means or you're just a retarded fanboy.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity. Nobody knows how to beat mid-late game BW terrans these days and everything has already been explored. It takes 2x the skill to beat a BW terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
Comparison between SC2 and SC again? It doesn't mater if you play BW when it first come out or if you watch the pro-scene since the beginning. Your claim that it takes 2x more skills to win etc etc just discredit your whole statement.
Obviously, Terran is imbalance because Flash is the only one to ever reach the MSL/OSL final for the past 1-2 years [I think ForGG/Fantasy was the last T]
I was just answering his question and explaining what I meant. But anyways, people still seem to think Terrans are not imbalanced even though in recent pro-gamer interviews, terrans are said to be imbalanced, takes less task, etc... Everyone seems to agree and I thought it was okay to say but I guess just to say, maybe its not.
You mean the Sea and Leta's Interview? [Afterward, Sea failed against JD and Leta cant catch a break] Don't get me wrong, I am sure BW is not a 100% balance game at all [neither is any other RTS game]. But give credit where is due. Flash earn his wins.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
WTH are you smokin? No doubt Flash is the best player in SC atm but NOBODY in their right mind is gonna say hes alot better than JD and untouchable. Proven by the 3-2 score, proven by the fact that JD was favored by most TLers in the poll to win. proven by the fact that he didnt 3-1 in a strongly T favored map pool. Either you dont understand what a bonjwa means or you're just a retarded fanboy.
All pretty specious arguments. Going by TL polls? You think those prove anything? And a 3-2 win doesn't prove some sort of closeness. I'd say Fantasy was significantly closer to knocking Flash out than JD, but nobody argues him to be close.
JD has had an unbelievable season (maybe the best of his career?), but I don't see him particularly close to Flash because as good as JD was this season, Flash has been a little better, and he's been way better for almost an entire year.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
WTH are you smokin? No doubt Flash is the best player in SC atm but NOBODY in their right mind is gonna say hes alot better than JD and untouchable. Proven by the 3-2 score, proven by the fact that JD was favored by most TLers in the poll to win. proven by the fact that he didnt 3-1 in a strongly T favored map pool. Either you dont understand what a bonjwa means or you're just a retarded fanboy.
Do you remember the Flash vs Jaedong polls here on TL? Before the OSL finals, it was 50/50. At some point it was even 52/48 in Flash's favor, since he was being so strong. Then Flash lost to effort, and people decided to join the JD bandwagon, and by the end of it he had a 8ish% lead on Flash. Then there was a new poll, but JD lost 0-3 in the MSL. Guess who won, by an even bigger lead? So yeah, polls say nothing.
On August 29 2010 03:13 Lokian wrote: Jaedong played well. Flash defended well. If flash wins the OSL, my BW days will be over. I don't really think zerg (or protoss) can come back due to impossible mechanic. It might be that point where BW has been explored in its entirety with players at the highest[possible] skill level. SC2 time!!
For your statement it seems that you are a newcomer in TL (may I ask you how many days in BW?) and only post to say that people should go to the Terran Land (SC2). I think that flash set better this final, and JD showed his great skills in that game 3, waiting for more good BW finals.
I played BW when it first came out and discovered the scene when gomTV were doing English commentary.
It was around gomTV intel classic. I didn't find much reason to sign up for TL.
SC2 is still changing with updates. SC2 Terrans are dominating the game in a similar fashion as BW and they got nerfed in the recent patch.
Anyways, I was just expressing that BW has squeezed out all of its juices already and the true balance between races are apparent. So I thought SC2 might have more opportunity. Nobody knows how to beat mid-late game BW terrans these days and everything has already been explored. It takes 2x the skill to beat a BW terran. In cases of pro-gamer terrans, thats nearly impossible. Not trying to start anything, just my opinion, but yeah.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about...
I guess when Savior was dominating and all the zergs had a high winrate all of BW and Protoss could not find a single way to defeat Savior's momentum style play BW was explored then huh? Just because all the best Protoss (nalra, Reach, etc. etc.) could not beat him that means all of BW was explored right? I mean... no one could possibly defeat Savior's ZvP.. imba! Right?
Just because Flash had some nice builds planned does not mean BW is stale strategically. In fact, it is opposite. Even after 12 years, new ways to look at a matchup can still be discovered.
But that's ok, maybe typical SC2 scrubs players wont see that.
- Are you confident that you’ll be able to win both individual league titles? ▲ I have more than enough confidence right now. Because of the way I was able to win today, I’ve attained a confidence where I believe I can beat no matter who I play against now. I’ll make sure to earn both individual title leagues this season since I wasn’t able to do so last season.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
WTH are you smokin? No doubt Flash is the best player in SC atm but NOBODY in their right mind is gonna say hes alot better than JD and untouchable. Proven by the 3-2 score, proven by the fact that JD was favored by most TLers in the poll to win. proven by the fact that he didnt 3-1 in a strongly T favored map pool. Either you dont understand what a bonjwa means or you're just a retarded fanboy.
Are you fucking kidding me? I didn't even mention Jaedong at all in my post, and somehow you take that as an attack on JD. I'm a way bigger JD fanboy than Flash and I consider him above bonjwa as well, but it's hard to argue with results. Jaedong has had an impressive season so far, but unless he wins the OSL, Flash has definitely had way more success this year. Just stfu please.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
WTH are you smokin? No doubt Flash is the best player in SC atm but NOBODY in their right mind is gonna say hes alot better than JD and untouchable. Proven by the 3-2 score, proven by the fact that JD was favored by most TLers in the poll to win. proven by the fact that he didnt 3-1 in a strongly T favored map pool. Either you dont understand what a bonjwa means or you're just a retarded fanboy.
I always find it funny when some American or other non-korean says something like "you don't understand what bonjwa means!!" when it's a KOREAN term and the Koreans called both Flash and JD above bonjwa ages ago.
It was SOOOOO freaking close -____- LLWWL for Jaedong; I'm not BW genius so correct me if I'm wrong but Jaedong won on all mostly-balanced maps and lost on the Terran-imbalanced maps--wouldn't it have been a much better fight if the map pool was better (people have mentioned this many, many times already, but I'm still pissed the hell off). VERY unprofessional of the MSL organizers to have set Polaris Rhapsody as first and last sets...
Edit: after reading some of the other JD-fanboy posts, I am not one of them!
While it would feel good if I were to curse the name of Flash and demean him, I have to give him credit; he played phenomenally, and this season has irrefutably been a great one for him--his success is a different matter as compared to his rivalry with Jaedong.
I just feel that Jaedong, who I think is playing better right now (overall), deserved the win more, but has been repeatedly screwed by the cheap-ass map pools. :/
I can't help but do the old "Jaedong/Flash=Federer/Nadal" comparison >3< Obviously, Flash "plays" like Federer ("perfection" and dominance), and Jaedong, Nadal ("passion" and more flamboyantly--sort of). However, my favorite tennis player is Federer, by far, and my favorite starcraft player is Jaedong (though he's closely followed by Stork ). The MSL final reminded me of last year's Aussie Open final, where Federer was sad after losing to Nadal (as JD lost to Flash yesterday fml).
*SIGHHHHHHHHHHHH~*
Okay, I'm done. On second though, maybe I should have blogged that. There's more content in this post than half of all blog entries anyway (though my post's quality is debatable >v<)
It was SOOOOO freaking close -____- LLWWL for Jaedong; I'm not BW genius so correct me if I'm wrong but Jaedong won on all mostly-balanced maps and lost on the Terran-imbalanced maps--wouldn't it have been a much better fight if the map pool was better (people have mentioned this many, many times already, but I'm still pissed the hell off). VERY unprofessional of the MSL organizers to have set Polaris Rhapsody as first and last sets...
Can't cry map imba on PR for set 1 and 5 since they didn't go into the lategame, and flash didn't take his double gas. PR is terran imba when the map is split and terran can camp it out (like the game vs Zero, though that was an awesome game regardless).
On August 29 2010 09:55 YoonHo wrote: WOW.. I missed this?! Crap.. Well, glad to see that FlaSh won. I'm just wondering, what's the new record he set? Thanks for the interview!
First time Jaedong has lost in the 5th set of a bo5 ever.
If Flash gets to the finals of OSL, it'll be the first time someone has qualified for both individual league finals 3 times in a row.
If Flash continues doing well, at this rate he is estimated to earn between 400,000,000 ~ 500,000,00 won this year which is more than the current record held by Savior for highest earnings (400,000,000 won during 05-06 season).
It was SOOOOO freaking close -____- LLWWL for Jaedong; I'm not BW genius so correct me if I'm wrong but Jaedong won on all mostly-balanced maps and lost on the Terran-imbalanced maps--wouldn't it have been a much better fight if the map pool was better (people have mentioned this many, many times already, but I'm still pissed the hell off). VERY unprofessional of the MSL organizers to have set Polaris Rhapsody as first and last sets...
Can't cry map imba on PR for set 1 and 5 since they didn't go into the lategame, and flash didn't take his double gas. PR is terran imba when the map is split and terran can camp it out (like the game vs Zero, though that was an awesome game regardless).
Yes, Flash didn't abuse the mech imbalance for the map but was able to utilize it via mind games. JD wanted to macro up so he can somewhat compete with the mech army, so Flash countered it with good timing pushes. Flash read JD like an open book, cause JD over-expanded in both PR and odd-eye and was swiftly crushed. (conversely, Flash was unlucky and scouted the wrong way on triathlon and was crushed by a 9-pool).
Not to take away anything from Flash, cause his control was impeccable. I just wish that there are maps where both sides are able to play more flexibly, so we don't get the perfect responses and one-sided rape games.
On a side note, I want to see a bunch of toss-favored maps to see how these two would respond.
On August 29 2010 10:02 bearbuddy wrote:Yes, Flash didn't abuse the mech imbalance for the map but was able to utilize it via mind games. JD wanted to macro up so he can somewhat compete with the mech army, so Flash countered it with good timing pushes. Flash read JD like an open book, cause JD over-expanded in both PR and odd-eye and was swiftly crushed. (conversely, Flash was unlucky and scouted the wrong way on triathlon and was crushed by a 9-pool).
Not to take away anything from Flash, cause his control was impeccable. I just wish that there are maps where both sides are able to play more flexibly, so we don't get the perfect responses and one-sided rape games.
On a side note, I want to see a bunch of toss-favored maps to see how these two would respond.
Out of curiosity, what does a map usually have for it to be Protoss favored? I know, more or less, what map features are better for Zerg or better for Terran, but I really have no idea for Protoss.
On August 29 2010 10:02 bearbuddy wrote:Yes, Flash didn't abuse the mech imbalance for the map but was able to utilize it via mind games. JD wanted to macro up so he can somewhat compete with the mech army, so Flash countered it with good timing pushes. Flash read JD like an open book, cause JD over-expanded in both PR and odd-eye and was swiftly crushed. (conversely, Flash was unlucky and scouted the wrong way on triathlon and was crushed by a 9-pool).
Not to take away anything from Flash, cause his control was impeccable. I just wish that there are maps where both sides are able to play more flexibly, so we don't get the perfect responses and one-sided rape games.
On a side note, I want to see a bunch of toss-favored maps to see how these two would respond.
Out of curiosity, what does a map usually have for it to be Protoss favored? I know, more or less, what map features are better for Zerg or better for Terran, but I really have no idea for Protoss.
Difficult third gas, ledges, etc. PR is actually good for toss, it's just not used in prelim where a lot of decent tosses were eliminated. Katrina is a good example, and Flash rofl-stomped everyone on there.
Is the goliath + marine timing push a new TvZ build (game 1)? I had never seen it before, but I haven't really been paying attention to BW much anymore, so I was wondering if Jaedong would have had much practice against it.
On August 29 2010 11:00 Najda wrote: Is the goliath + marine timing push a new TvZ build (game 1)? I had never seen it before, but I haven't really been paying attention to BW much anymore, so I was wondering if Jaedong would have had much practice against it.
I was thinking the same thing. That's the first time I've seen it, but i also dont follow BW much
On August 29 2010 11:00 Najda wrote: Is the goliath + marine timing push a new TvZ build (game 1)? I had never seen it before, but I haven't really been paying attention to BW much anymore, so I was wondering if Jaedong would have had much practice against it.
Can't remember if its the same build but from what I remember its very similar to the ones Flash used to do in the 08-09 Proleague era when every terran was dabbling with some sort of mech variant. Its definitely not new however.
You can see it being used against Effort on Heartbreak Ridge and against Roro on Outsider.
I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
- It feels like the fervor for LeeSsangRok has dropped recently. ▲ During the Nate MSL where I lost, the fans’ anticipation was amazing, and during the Hana Daetoo MSL, the anticipation was also great but this time since it was the 3rd time in a row, I think it dropped a lot. Because of that, I was surprised as well. I thought the fans would continue to look forward to it because it would be a match between two strong players, but I think they’ve grown sick of watching a matchup between the same two players. I think the fans will enjoy it more if other players work hard to get to the finals so we have more variety in matchups.
I am glad that I'm not the only person who felt it.
Hell, I was excited too for that OSL BO3 in which Flash anti-climatically bunker rushed his way to victory.
I didn't even bother to check the vods till tonight, when I was kinda bored.
On August 29 2010 09:55 YoonHo wrote: WOW.. I missed this?! Crap.. Well, glad to see that FlaSh won. I'm just wondering, what's the new record he set? Thanks for the interview!
First time Jaedong has lost in the 5th set of a bo5 ever.
If Flash gets to the finals of OSL, it'll be the first time someone has qualified for both individual league finals 3 times in a row.
If Flash continues doing well, at this rate he is estimated to earn between 400,000,000 ~ 500,000,00 won this year which is more than the current record held by Savior for highest earnings (400,000,000 won during 05-06 season).
That's freaking amazing.. I thought I've been following the Korean BW scene for the past few years but I still didn't know FlaSh qualified for both individual league finals 2 previous times. What amazes me the most is the fact that he's able to make that much money. That's insane.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
You've got to be kidding.
Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise.
What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis.
I agree, but I don't think any1 can argue that TvZ gives Terrans a better opportunity to play mindgames.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran.
i believe that is called strategy no? ._.
I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much.
Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time.
what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"???
I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage
what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right?
First of all, 14CC is still ahead of 3 hatch before pool in econ (I don't have the quote but Ver said it somewhere). Also, Zerg's standard opener is 12 hatch in TvZ. 14 CC just outright beats it, and even if the zerg drone scouts its too late to change your build order. 3 hatch before pool, on the other hand, can be killed or at least severely damaged with an improvised bunker rush if terran scouts it early. On top of that, pool first openings leave you really behind against anything other than 14CC (which terrans player 90% of the time), so it becomes a really tough choice for a zerg, especially in a series of this importance, and its a choice that we tend to oversimplify in retrospect. 3 hatch before pool is very margianlly ahead of going rax --> expand before your first marine, which terran can do safely if he scouts you first or second try. For terran its like " I can risk it and do 14CC, which im most likely gonan end up ahead from, or I can 1 rax expand and be totally safe from everything, and be almost guarenteed to at least end up evenly. Worst case scenario with 1 rax expo is that zerg 3 hatches before pool and you don't scout it first try, in which case you're very very slightly behind.
And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right?
Yes, but you're hyperbolizing my argument. I don't mean your average joe beating an A- on iccup, but certainly a player of lesser skill can beat some1 of higher skill (like 1 rank difference) with an all in timing push. At the pro level the execution of these kind of builds is fairly similar among most players.
Btw no bias here. Terran's my main race in BW and in Sc2, and flash is the player I like and respect the most
At least someone knows what they're talking about. Thank you.
ggs on both sides, and thanks for the translation smix
Did anyone think that Jaedong looked really tired at before the first set when they were both standing in front of the crowd?... I mean his face looked like that of a Zombie O_o
O wow that's a lot of money.. FLASH Gogogo Win it all! Of course remember to take care of your health first.. Health comes first! then win it all! AHahahah
On August 29 2010 12:12 SimonB wrote: I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
I think that build was born during the GOM season 2 on God's Garden. I remember Flash doing it quite a lot especially cross positions. He opened 1fac goliaths i think while turreting and quickly adding 3-4 raxes with fast +1 and defending the mutas with the help of range gols, then timing push and contain the zerg. On god's garden most zergs opened some sort of 3 hatch mutas and the 3rd secured gas allowed them an easy hive and tech switch, while defending all 3 bases with sunks and pressure, because if you allow zerg to take another main then it quickly became 6 gas zerg and at that time those late game mech strats were none exiting. Correct me if i am wrong.
On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote: Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. 2 Timing pushes and goddamn gay 14CC win the last game. Even he admitted Jaedong outplayed him in the one game that actually came down to raw skill. Flash I love you and you're still my favorite player, but blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
On August 29 2010 09:04 Z3kk wrote: Fuck, I just finished watching the VODs...
It was SOOOOO freaking close -____- LLWWL for Jaedong; I'm not BW genius so correct me if I'm wrong but Jaedong won on all mostly-balanced maps and lost on the Terran-imbalanced maps--wouldn't it have been a much better fight if the map pool was better (people have mentioned this many, many times already, but I'm still pissed the hell off). VERY unprofessional of the MSL organizers to have set Polaris Rhapsody as first and last sets...
Edit: after reading some of the other JD-fanboy posts, I am not one of them!
While it would feel good if I were to curse the name of Flash and demean him, I have to give him credit; he played phenomenally, and this season has irrefutably been a great one for him--his success is a different matter as compared to his rivalry with Jaedong.
I just feel that Jaedong, who I think is playing better right now (overall), deserved the win more, but has been repeatedly screwed by the cheap-ass map pools. :/
I can't help but do the old "Jaedong/Flash=Federer/Nadal" comparison >3< Obviously, Flash "plays" like Federer ("perfection" and dominance), and Jaedong, Nadal ("passion" and more flamboyantly--sort of). However, my favorite tennis player is Federer, by far, and my favorite starcraft player is Jaedong (though he's closely followed by Stork ). The MSL final reminded me of last year's Aussie Open final, where Federer was sad after losing to Nadal (as JD lost to Flash yesterday fml).
*SIGHHHHHHHHHHHH~*
Okay, I'm done. On second though, maybe I should have blogged that. There's more content in this post than half of all blog entries anyway (though my post's quality is debatable >v<)
Of course, THANKS SMIX!! ^^
As a Stork/Protoss fan, allow me to remind you that when it was swarm season, all the Zerg fans were like "hey, there's no imba, Protoss players are just less skilled. Maps might make some difference, but good players overcome that." So, Scott Tenormen, let me taste your delicious tears, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!
Whine and moan all you like, but according to Zerg fan's own logic, Flash is the deserving winner, and you should just sit down and shut up XD
That being said, PR being mechable is a Zerg nightmare. Of course, FS's massive distances, easy to hold expansions and luxuriously large spaces from a theoretical standpoint are just as anti-Terran, but somehow Terrans learned to adapt to these types of maps. And yes, T>Z, Z>P, P>T, that's BW, but all those that didn't complain during Swarm Season have no right to do so now.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote: Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
Don't forget Winner's League. And if Flash wins the OSL, he will do something that no one has ever done before, so of course it will be epic.
On August 29 2010 12:12 SimonB wrote: I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
i need to watch game 1 again but im not so sure that the switch to MnM itself was as important as just the timing of the push. it seemed like he just had way more stuff than JD was able to deal with (even if you replace the MnM with equal money's worth of goliaths).
lee young ho i love you. lee jae dong don't be sad :")
but this thread is reeking sc2. i thought this forum corner was for the bw elitist? please keep balance (wtf?!?) lamenting to a minimum. and tennis? cmon...
flash is trandescending. if he wins the osl he is going to dissolve into nirvana.
but what were those patches he removed on game one? nicotine? beta-blockers? some new hiccup?
The maps being imbalanced are not to blame, it's Jaedong's strategies. TvZ is only imbalanced when you play exactly how Jaedong did in games 1,2 and 5. Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time. Letting the Terran 14cc and build up while the zerg tries to build up their own army is not how zerg should be played. Zerg has to be aggressive. Jaedong probably doesn't realize this because most Terran don't play like Flash and JD's raw skill advantage allows him to beat other Terrans playing passively.
Claiming that a zerg can't beat Flash and that TvZ has been completely explored is ridiculous. It's all mind games between Flash and Jaedong and Flash can read JD like a book...Uncontested 14cc 6 out of 8 games...winning all of them and losing the only two times he didn't. If Effort was in the finals he more than likely would have rushed the blind 14cc in game 5 and won the MSL which is the same way he won his OSL
On August 30 2010 12:02 nodule wrote: Sigh, will we ever be able to enjoy a star league finals without most of the discussion being about racial/mapial imbalance?
On August 29 2010 12:12 SimonB wrote: I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
i need to watch game 1 again but im not so sure that the switch to MnM itself was as important as just the timing of the push. it seemed like he just had way more stuff than JD was able to deal with (even if you replace the MnM with equal money's worth of goliaths).
It's about the timing of a mech push (which jaedong expected to repel with hydras) vs the timing of flash's mech + m&m push which comes earlier and is damn powerful.
On August 29 2010 12:12 SimonB wrote: I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
i need to watch game 1 again but im not so sure that the switch to MnM itself was as important as just the timing of the push. it seemed like he just had way more stuff than JD was able to deal with (even if you replace the MnM with equal money's worth of goliaths).
It's about the timing of a mech push (which jaedong expected to repel with hydras) vs the timing of flash's mech + m&m push which comes earlier and is damn powerful.
Yep, it was a bait and switch, and jaedong missed the switch.
jd gotta start playing some mind games as well... hes playing into flash's hands too often... not that flash's mech fakes arnt brilliant... flash's spidey game sense is just untouchable
mechanically, i think the two are dead even... and split second decisions i gotta think jd is better (lol muta micro.. although he did mismicro SO MUCH 5th set...).. but overall game plan/mind game tech switches/decisions- flash. the guys a genius.
- The mind games played today were incredible. ▲ For sets 1 and 2, I focused on mind games while preparing and for Fighting Spirit, I depended on my own skills. I had a strong strategy prepared for Triathlon but it ended so regrettably that I felt nervous. Thankfully, I feel like the strategy I prepared for the 5th set played out really well so I won easier than expected.
Just proves you have to cheese, cheese game 1 and game 2, I'll play standard vs standard for game 3, I just owned.
On August 30 2010 11:20 crazeh wrote: The maps being imbalanced are not to blame, it's Jaedong's strategies. TvZ is only imbalanced when you play exactly how Jaedong did in games 1,2 and 5. Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time. Letting the Terran 14cc and build up while the zerg tries to build up their own army is not how zerg should be played. Zerg has to be aggressive. Jaedong probably doesn't realize this because most Terran don't play like Flash and JD's raw skill advantage allows him to beat other Terrans playing passively.
Claiming that a zerg can't beat Flash and that TvZ has been completely explored is ridiculous. It's all mind games between Flash and Jaedong and Flash can read JD like a book...Uncontested 14cc 6 out of 8 games...winning all of them and losing the only two times he didn't. If Effort was in the finals he more than likely would have rushed the blind 14cc in game 5 and won the MSL which is the same way he won his OSL
On August 30 2010 11:20 crazeh wrote: The maps being imbalanced are not to blame, it's Jaedong's strategies. TvZ is only imbalanced when you play exactly how Jaedong did in games 1,2 and 5. Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time. Letting the Terran 14cc and build up while the zerg tries to build up their own army is not how zerg should be played. Zerg has to be aggressive. Jaedong probably doesn't realize this because most Terran don't play like Flash and JD's raw skill advantage allows him to beat other Terrans playing passively.
Claiming that a zerg can't beat Flash and that TvZ has been completely explored is ridiculous. It's all mind games between Flash and Jaedong and Flash can read JD like a book...Uncontested 14cc 6 out of 8 games...winning all of them and losing the only two times he didn't. If Effort was in the finals he more than likely would have rushed the blind 14cc in game 5 and won the MSL which is the same way he won his OSL
Ya, I doubt Jaedong knows zerg very well.
sorry...I meant against Flash's 14cc build specifically.
On August 30 2010 12:02 nodule wrote: Sigh, will we ever be able to enjoy a star league finals without most of the discussion being about racial/mapial imbalance?
when we finally have a star league final full of balanced maps?
On August 30 2010 15:38 SkyTheUnknown wrote: imho 150k dollars is not that much for being one of the two greatest active bw players in korea. a good sc2 player could be able to earn more...
That's not his salary that's tournament winnings only
On August 30 2010 15:38 SkyTheUnknown wrote: imho 150k dollars is not that much for being one of the two greatest active bw players in korea. a good sc2 player could be able to earn more...
That's not his salary that's tournament winnings only
That's the prize for just this tournament. He'll get more later on.
On August 30 2010 15:38 SkyTheUnknown wrote: imho 150k dollars is not that much for being one of the two greatest active bw players in korea. a good sc2 player could be able to earn more...
That's not his salary that's tournament winnings only
That's the prize for just this tournament. He'll get more later on.
it's still more money than i'll ever earn in my life.
On August 30 2010 11:20 crazeh wrote: The maps being imbalanced are not to blame, it's Jaedong's strategies. TvZ is only imbalanced when you play exactly how Jaedong did in games 1,2 and 5. Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time. Letting the Terran 14cc and build up while the zerg tries to build up their own army is not how zerg should be played. Zerg has to be aggressive. Jaedong probably doesn't realize this because most Terran don't play like Flash and JD's raw skill advantage allows him to beat other Terrans playing passively.
Claiming that a zerg can't beat Flash and that TvZ has been completely explored is ridiculous. It's all mind games between Flash and Jaedong and Flash can read JD like a book...Uncontested 14cc 6 out of 8 games...winning all of them and losing the only two times he didn't. If Effort was in the finals he more than likely would have rushed the blind 14cc in game 5 and won the MSL which is the same way he won his OSL
Ya, I doubt Jaedong knows zerg very well.
sorry...I meant against Flash's 14cc build specifically.
You're vastly oversimplifying it. It's hard to predict if some1s going 14CC, and I'm sure for many of the games this final jaedong was thinking "he'll expect me to think he's gonna 14CC, so if i pool first he'll rax expand".
The problem is there's way less risk involved from the Terran. If terran 14CCs, the only thing the zerg can do to end up ahead or stop it is go pool first (3 hatch before pool is still behind in economy vs 14CC). On maps like Odd Eye where terran can make a lingtight wall in their natural even 12 pool often arrives too late to stop the wall from being completed (if terran cuts and scv to get his 3rd depot up really quickly then you're usually less than 100 hp away from completing when lings for a 12 pool arrives). The problem with going ling first though is that it leaves you way behind vs any rax first openings (like 1 rax expo), which terrans do 90% of the time.
As you can see there are way less risks involved for Terran. If terran goes 14CC, he only loses to pool first openings, which isn't a problem because zergs 12hatch over 90% of the time in TvZ. If terran goes 1 rax expand he's almost 100% guarenteed to at least end up on par, if not ahead, of the zerg (3 hatch before pool is almost the equivalent of going rax CC without building a first marine).
If Zerg goes 12hatch, he either goes even with terran (1 rax expand), or outright loses (14CC) If Zerg goes pool first, he either beats a 14CC, or he's way behind vs 1 rax expand, which terran does 90% of the time. If zerg goes 3 hatch before pool, he's slightly ahead of terran's 1 rax, and slightly behind Terran's 14CC, at the risk of outright losing to a bunker rush.
Your "Jaedong's safe play vs Flash was read like a book, its his fault for not pressuring terran" is a ridiculous oversimplification. Sure, in retrospect we see flash had the balls to 14CC so much, but in an actual series of such importance its a way harder choice, especially since prior to the finals flash has very very very very rarely 14CCed a zerg this year (other than that 1 game vs effort on fighting spirit i think, but im not sure) save the last MSL finals (1 full season ago) and the OSL finals (where it completely and utterly backfired on him)
On August 30 2010 15:38 SkyTheUnknown wrote: imho 150k dollars is not that much for being one of the two greatest active bw players in korea. a good sc2 player could be able to earn more...
That's not his salary that's tournament winnings only
That's the prize for just this tournament. He'll get more later on.
Actually it's his tournament winnings - from this tournament he got 50,000,000 won.
On August 31 2010 00:09 SubtleArt wrote:You're vastly oversimplifying it. It's hard to predict if some1s going 14CC, and I'm sure for many of the games this final jaedong was thinking "he'll expect me to think he's gonna 14CC, so if i pool first he'll rax expand".
The problem is there's way less risk involved from the Terran. If terran 14CCs, the only thing the zerg can do to end up ahead or stop it is go pool first (3 hatch before pool is still behind in economy vs 14CC). On maps like Odd Eye where terran can make a lingtight wall in their natural even 12 pool often arrives too late to stop the wall from being completed (if terran cuts and scv to get his 3rd depot up really quickly then you're usually less than 100 hp away from completing when lings for a 12 pool arrives). The problem with going ling first though is that it leaves you way behind vs any rax first openings (like 1 rax expo), which terrans do 90% of the time.
As you can see there are way less risks involved for Terran. If terran goes 14CC, he only loses to pool first openings, which isn't a problem because zergs 12hatch over 90% of the time in TvZ. If terran goes 1 rax expand he's almost 100% guarenteed to at least end up on par, if not ahead, of the zerg (3 hatch before pool is almost the equivalent of going rax CC without building a first marine).
If Zerg goes 12hatch, he either goes even with terran (1 rax expand), or outright loses (14CC) If Zerg goes pool first, he either beats a 14CC, or he's way behind vs 1 rax expand, which terran does 90% of the time. If zerg goes 3 hatch before pool, he's slightly ahead of terran's 1 rax, and slightly behind Terran's 14CC, at the risk of outright losing to a bunker rush.
Your "Jaedong's safe play vs Flash was read like a book, its his fault for not pressuring terran" is a ridiculous oversimplification. Sure, in retrospect we see flash had the balls to 14CC so much, but in an actual series of such importance its a way harder choice, especially since prior to the finals flash has very very very very rarely 14CCed a zerg this year (other than that 1 game vs effort on fighting spirit i think, but im not sure) save the last MSL finals (1 full season ago) and the OSL finals (where it completely and utterly backfired on him)
On August 31 2010 00:09 SubtleArt wrote:You're vastly oversimplifying it. It's hard to predict if some1s going 14CC, and I'm sure for many of the games this final jaedong was thinking "he'll expect me to think he's gonna 14CC, so if i pool first he'll rax expand".
The problem is there's way less risk involved from the Terran. If terran 14CCs, the only thing the zerg can do to end up ahead or stop it is go pool first (3 hatch before pool is still behind in economy vs 14CC). On maps like Odd Eye where terran can make a lingtight wall in their natural even 12 pool often arrives too late to stop the wall from being completed (if terran cuts and scv to get his 3rd depot up really quickly then you're usually less than 100 hp away from completing when lings for a 12 pool arrives). The problem with going ling first though is that it leaves you way behind vs any rax first openings (like 1 rax expo), which terrans do 90% of the time.
As you can see there are way less risks involved for Terran. If terran goes 14CC, he only loses to pool first openings, which isn't a problem because zergs 12hatch over 90% of the time in TvZ. If terran goes 1 rax expand he's almost 100% guarenteed to at least end up on par, if not ahead, of the zerg (3 hatch before pool is almost the equivalent of going rax CC without building a first marine).
If Zerg goes 12hatch, he either goes even with terran (1 rax expand), or outright loses (14CC) If Zerg goes pool first, he either beats a 14CC, or he's way behind vs 1 rax expand, which terran does 90% of the time. If zerg goes 3 hatch before pool, he's slightly ahead of terran's 1 rax, and slightly behind Terran's 14CC, at the risk of outright losing to a bunker rush.
Your "Jaedong's safe play vs Flash was read like a book, its his fault for not pressuring terran" is a ridiculous oversimplification. Sure, in retrospect we see flash had the balls to 14CC so much, but in an actual series of such importance its a way harder choice, especially since prior to the finals flash has very very very very rarely 14CCed a zerg this year (other than that 1 game vs effort on fighting spirit i think, but im not sure) save the last MSL finals (1 full season ago) and the OSL finals (where it completely and utterly backfired on him)
So, how do Zerg players usually deal with this?
It's really hard to deal with, and its kinda unfair, which is my point. In most matches though if you get a reputation for 14CC you're gonna get ling rushed a lot. Kinda like how Stork used to have a reputation for 12 Nex in PvT, and it led to him being bunker rushed and BBSed a lot. Flash wisely used in only on the most important stage though, effectively taking his opponent off guard. Not really sure what Jaedong could have done, because flash is equally comfortable cheesing .
On August 31 2010 09:37 SubtleArt wrote:It's really hard to deal with, and its kinda unfair, which is my point. In most matches though if you get a reputation for 14CC you're gonna get ling rushed a lot. Kinda like how Stork used to have a reputation for 12 Nex in PvT, and it led to him being bunker rushed and BBSed a lot. Flash wisely used in only on the most important stage though, effectively taking his opponent off guard. Not really sure what Jaedong could have done, because flash is equally comfortable cheesing .
I thought so, but I didn't want to over-interpret what you were saying.
0mgVitaminE mentioned in his post that, "Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time." And I think he's right - Zergs that are able to pressure the Terran successfully in the early game seem to have pretty good odds on winning later. I just have trouble seeing what Jaedong could have done differently in Game 1 with regards to harass, assuming he didn't make the blind guess correctly. Muta harass was easily shut down, because of how well Flash prepared for it. And I don't see how Jaedong could have realistically expected to assault the wall at the natural without seeing the same result as in Game 3 of the previous MSL. So, given that, it seemed like once Flash had the 14CC up and running and the wall ready, there wasn't much Jaedong could do to actually pressure Flash or hurt his economy.
That said, could Jaedong not have scouted with his drone in order to not be just guessing in a sort of a "Rock-Paper-Scissors"? Flash, naturally, scouts with his SCV to see what Jaedong is doing and chooses to do whichever response is more beneficial for him (usually 14CC, it seems). Or is even that drone scout too late? The Overlord scout, unfortunately, seems to come far, far too late - not arriving in Game 1 or 2 until Flash had just been finishing up his wall.
I feel like there ought to be some sort of answer to this issue in the early game - if not on Jaedong's part, then on the part of map-makers. It does seem like if it is the case that every opening except pool first loses to 14CC, and every pool first opening loses to 1 Rax Expand, and Flash has 14CC'd 6 times the last 8 times they've met, then it couldn't hurt to just go for a 9 pool once in awhile.
On August 31 2010 09:37 SubtleArt wrote:It's really hard to deal with, and its kinda unfair, which is my point. In most matches though if you get a reputation for 14CC you're gonna get ling rushed a lot. Kinda like how Stork used to have a reputation for 12 Nex in PvT, and it led to him being bunker rushed and BBSed a lot. Flash wisely used in only on the most important stage though, effectively taking his opponent off guard. Not really sure what Jaedong could have done, because flash is equally comfortable cheesing .
I thought so, but I didn't want to over-interpret what you were saying.
0mgVitaminE mentioned in his post that, "Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time." And I think he's right - Zergs that are able to pressure the Terran successfully in the early game seem to have pretty good odds on winning later. I just have trouble seeing what Jaedong could have done differently in Game 1 with regards to harass, assuming he didn't make the blind guess correctly. Muta harass was easily shut down, because of how well Flash prepared for it. And I don't see how Jaedong could have realistically expected to assault the wall at the natural without seeing the same result as in Game 3 of the previous MSL. So, given that, it seemed like once Flash had the 14CC up and running and the wall ready, there wasn't much Jaedong could do to actually pressure Flash or hurt his economy.
That said, could Jaedong not have scouted with his drone in order to not be just guessing in a sort of a "Rock-Paper-Scissors"? Flash, naturally, scouts with his SCV to see what Jaedong is doing and chooses to do whichever response is more beneficial for him (usually 14CC, it seems). Or is even that drone scout too late? The Overlord scout, unfortunately, seems to come far, far too late - not arriving in Game 1 or 2 until Flash had just been finishing up his wall.
I feel like there ought to be some sort of answer to this issue in the early game - if not on Jaedong's part, then on the part of map-makers. It does seem like if it is the case that every opening except pool first loses to 14CC, and every pool first opening loses to 1 Rax Expand, and Flash has 14CC'd 6 times the last 8 times they've met, then it couldn't hurt to just go for a 9 pool once in awhile.
Well its almost impossible to pressure Terran without committing a lot and almost going all in. I mean really, how do u pressure them before mutas? Pool first --> ling speed is easily shut down by putting 3 scvs on a ramp. The only reasonable one is to go 12 pool --> gas --> then second hatch for a really fast 2 hatch muta (mutas arrive at 6 minutes instead of 6:30, which is the timing for a normal 12 hatch 00> 2 hatch muta) but that's more or less all in mutas.
Another option is to save larva and build 6 lings after ur pool finishes (still 12 hatching) but the most that's gonna do is force terran to build a bunker at his natural before getting up his 2nd rax. Adding any more lings after that is either committing to an all in zergling break or a semi all in muta ling break. Jaedong did 12p --> lair and won vs flash on matchpoint in the han daetoo MSL but it was mainly because of Flash's late turrets and how obnoxious the cliff behind the mineral line is in on matchpoint. In this map pool none of the maps really lend themselves to muta harass that much.
Drone scouting is an option, but never really fast enough to change your opening vs a 14CC. If you scout so early that u can go pool first after scouting 14CC then you've done yourself more damage than harm. Really the only reasonable option if u scout 14CC and u've 12hatched is to build an additional 3 drones before ur pool, instead of building it on 11, but even this requires a fairly early scout.
But yea, there could have been some effort from the map makers to at least ensure terran can't make a perfectly ling tight wall in their natural or something, that seemed pretty unfair
On August 31 2010 09:37 SubtleArt wrote:It's really hard to deal with, and its kinda unfair, which is my point. In most matches though if you get a reputation for 14CC you're gonna get ling rushed a lot. Kinda like how Stork used to have a reputation for 12 Nex in PvT, and it led to him being bunker rushed and BBSed a lot. Flash wisely used in only on the most important stage though, effectively taking his opponent off guard. Not really sure what Jaedong could have done, because flash is equally comfortable cheesing .
I thought so, but I didn't want to over-interpret what you were saying.
0mgVitaminE mentioned in his post that, "Winning in the mid or late game is no problem for zerg as long as they are constantly pressuring the Terran the entire time." And I think he's right - Zergs that are able to pressure the Terran successfully in the early game seem to have pretty good odds on winning later. I just have trouble seeing what Jaedong could have done differently in Game 1 with regards to harass, assuming he didn't make the blind guess correctly. Muta harass was easily shut down, because of how well Flash prepared for it. And I don't see how Jaedong could have realistically expected to assault the wall at the natural without seeing the same result as in Game 3 of the previous MSL. So, given that, it seemed like once Flash had the 14CC up and running and the wall ready, there wasn't much Jaedong could do to actually pressure Flash or hurt his economy.
That said, could Jaedong not have scouted with his drone in order to not be just guessing in a sort of a "Rock-Paper-Scissors"? Flash, naturally, scouts with his SCV to see what Jaedong is doing and chooses to do whichever response is more beneficial for him (usually 14CC, it seems). Or is even that drone scout too late? The Overlord scout, unfortunately, seems to come far, far too late - not arriving in Game 1 or 2 until Flash had just been finishing up his wall.
I feel like there ought to be some sort of answer to this issue in the early game - if not on Jaedong's part, then on the part of map-makers. It does seem like if it is the case that every opening except pool first loses to 14CC, and every pool first opening loses to 1 Rax Expand, and Flash has 14CC'd 6 times the last 8 times they've met, then it couldn't hurt to just go for a 9 pool once in awhile.
Well its almost impossible to pressure Terran without committing a lot and almost going all in. I mean really, how do u pressure them before mutas? Pool first --> ling speed is easily shut down by putting 3 scvs on a ramp. The only reasonable one is to go 12 pool --> gas --> then second hatch for a really fast 2 hatch muta (mutas arrive at 6 minutes instead of 6:30, which is the timing for a normal 12 hatch 00> 2 hatch muta) but that's more or less all in mutas.
Another option is to save larva and build 6 lings after ur pool finishes (still 12 hatching) but the most that's gonna do is force terran to build a bunker at his natural before getting up his 2nd rax. Adding any more lings after that is either committing to an all in zergling break or a semi all in muta ling break. Jaedong did 12p --> lair and won vs flash on matchpoint in the han daetoo MSL but it was mainly because of Flash's late turrets and how obnoxious the cliff behind the mineral line is in on matchpoint. In this map pool none of the maps really lend themselves to muta harass that much.
Drone scouting is an option, but never really fast enough to change your opening vs a 14CC. If you scout so early that u can go pool first after scouting 14CC then you've done yourself more damage than harm. Really the only reasonable option if u scout 14CC and u've 12hatched is to build an additional 3 drones before ur pool, instead of building it on 11, but even this requires a fairly early scout.
But yea, there could have been some effort from the map makers to at least ensure terran can't make a perfectly ling tight wall in their natural or something, that seemed pretty unfair
I had the same thought about scouting and after looking at the vod of Odd Eye and timing the distance it took for the SCV scout to cross the map, Jaedong would have had to send out his 7th drone to spot the placement of the depot in time to overpool.
Flash truly is a monster. The OSL final must be JD vs Flash again. And hopefully JD can win the OSL at least, but considering how furios/enthusiastic he must be after this MSL, I believe he can make it.
On September 01 2010 03:08 ggrrg wrote: Flash truly is a monster. The OSL final must be JD vs Flash again. And hopefully JD can win the OSL at least, but considering how furios/enthusiastic he must be after this MSL, I believe he can make it.
Hey as much I love Jaedong, I want Stork to be up in the final with Flash.
EPT
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Jaedong. 
free.
Flash I am today wouldn’t be here either. I want to thank my coaching staff, teammates, and the executive staff. I also want to extend my gratitude towards my parents who are always cheering by my side and to 
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