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5930 Posts
On August 29 2010 11:00 Najda wrote:
Is the goliath + marine timing push a new TvZ build (game 1)? I had never seen it before, but I haven't really been paying attention to BW much anymore, so I was wondering if Jaedong would have had much practice against it.
Can't remember if its the same build but from what I remember its very similar to the ones Flash used to do in the 08-09 Proleague era when every terran was dabbling with some sort of mech variant. Its definitely not new however.
You can see it being used against Effort on Heartbreak Ridge and against Roro on Outsider.
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Seeing Jaedong get back up to 2-2 reminded me of the 08-09 Batoo OSL -.-;;;
I was really nervous getting into Game 3 -I was surprised when there wasn't a roar from the crowd every time Flash lost a group of m&m.
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Awesome series. Flash almost pulled a Flash on me! haha
Thankfully he was able to stay composed and played perfect for the 5th set.
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I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
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Damn you Effort!
Traitor to the swarm..
tx for translation
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If you are wondering where you have seen Goliath + marine, go check out WCG 2009 (or 2008) where JD lost to a Ukraine player with the same build.
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Either one of them would easily be bonjwa if the other didn't play.
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On August 29 2010 13:09 jalstar wrote:
Either one of them would easily be bonjwa if the other didn't play.
T3h Truth
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"I'll work hard to become the best player"
I think he is already the one ^^
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- It feels like the fervor for LeeSsangRok has dropped recently.
▲ During the Nate MSL where I lost, the fans’ anticipation was amazing, and during the Hana Daetoo MSL, the anticipation was also great but this time since it was the 3rd time in a row, I think it dropped a lot. Because of that, I was surprised as well. I thought the fans would continue to look forward to it because it would be a match between two strong players, but I think they’ve grown sick of watching a matchup between the same two players. I think the fans will enjoy it more if other players work hard to get to the finals so we have more variety in matchups.
I am glad that I'm not the only person who felt it.
Hell, I was excited too for that OSL BO3 in which Flash anti-climatically bunker rushed his way to victory.
I didn't even bother to check the vods till tonight, when I was kinda bored.
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was it just me who thought that set 3/4 was a giveaway for hype? also last set was so sloppy from jd
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On August 29 2010 09:59 Smix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 09:55 YoonHo wrote:
WOW.. I missed this?! Crap.. Well, glad to see that FlaSh won. I'm just wondering, what's the new record he set? Thanks for the interview! First time Jaedong has lost in the 5th set of a bo5 ever. If Flash gets to the finals of OSL, it'll be the first time someone has qualified for both individual league finals 3 times in a row. If Flash continues doing well, at this rate he is estimated to earn between 400,000,000 ~ 500,000,00 won this year which is more than the current record held by Savior for highest earnings (400,000,000 won during 05-06 season).
That's freaking amazing.. I thought I've been following the Korean BW scene for the past few years but I still didn't know FlaSh qualified for both individual league finals 2 previous times. What amazes me the most is the fact that he's able to make that much money. That's insane.
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On August 29 2010 12:21 Khul Sadukar wrote:
Damn you Effort!
Traitor to the swarm..
tx for translation
does that make every terran that practiced with jd traitors as well?
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On August 29 2010 04:21 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:41 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 02:20 Wings wrote:On August 29 2010 00:25 SubtleArt wrote:On August 28 2010 23:41 Katsuge wrote:On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. i believe that is called strategy no? ._. I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much. Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time. what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"??? I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage You've got to be kidding. Flash can beat JD in a straight up match, and vice versa. Both have shown this before. We know they're both good enough to do it based on "actual skill" alone. But guess what, a Best of 5 finale like this is about more than just playing (up to) 5 straight up standard games and test raw skill the end. If that were the case, I'm sure we could all agree that on a good day Flash could beat JD like that and similarly JD could do the same. The fact is that mindgames and strategic builds play a huge role in a series like this. Flash winning games because he won the mindgames or because he had better strategies doesn't cheapen his victory, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise. What about all the times JD has won in best of 5 series with 4 pools or all-in mutas or whatever?Were those not 'real' victories as well? Starcraft is a real-time strategy game. If you want to watch matches were there are no such elements involved than you're better off sticking just to tennis. I agree, but I don't think any1 can argue that TvZ gives Terrans a better opportunity to play mindgames. Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 04:05 Wings wrote:On August 29 2010 03:02 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 02:20 Wings wrote:On August 29 2010 00:25 SubtleArt wrote:On August 28 2010 23:41 Katsuge wrote:On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. i believe that is called strategy no? ._. I believe it is too, but as a fan of Flash and as somebody who wants to see good games, I really wish he didn't do something that abuses an inherent weakness (dare I say....imbalance?) in ZvT, and something that doesn't rely on actual skill as much. Man, this rivalry reminds me of Federer vs Nadal. If one of them didn't exist, the other would comfortably sweep all leagues for a long time. what the...??? When the hell did bio + tank + vessel (standard TvZ) = "not rely on actual skill"??? I'm talking about 2 all in timing pushes (which are not "actual skill", im sorry), and riding a 14CC advantage what the hell? "14CC advantage"??? seriously? It's a freaking risky build order that maximizes economic output if it succeeds. Zerg has something extremely similar, it's called "3 hatch before pool". If Zerg ever wants to kill 14CC, they have these weapons called... let's say... "4 pool/5pool/9pool speed", ever heard of them? And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right? First of all, 14CC is still ahead of 3 hatch before pool in econ (I don't have the quote but Ver said it somewhere). Also, Zerg's standard opener is 12 hatch in TvZ. 14 CC just outright beats it, and even if the zerg drone scouts its too late to change your build order. 3 hatch before pool, on the other hand, can be killed or at least severely damaged with an improvised bunker rush if terran scouts it early. On top of that, pool first openings leave you really behind against anything other than 14CC (which terrans player 90% of the time), so it becomes a really tough choice for a zerg, especially in a series of this importance, and its a choice that we tend to oversimplify in retrospect. 3 hatch before pool is very margianlly ahead of going rax --> expand before your first marine, which terran can do safely if he scouts you first or second try. For terran its like " I can risk it and do 14CC, which im most likely gonan end up ahead from, or I can 1 rax expand and be totally safe from everything, and be almost guarenteed to at least end up evenly. Worst case scenario with 1 rax expo is that zerg 3 hatches before pool and you don't scout it first try, in which case you're very very slightly behind. Show nested quote +And timing pushes are... "not actual skill"....??? So, basically, a noob can do an all-in timing push against the the best players and autowin, right? Yes, but you're hyperbolizing my argument. I don't mean your average joe beating an A- on iccup, but certainly a player of lesser skill can beat some1 of higher skill (like 1 rank difference) with an all in timing push. At the pro level the execution of these kind of builds is fairly similar among most players. Btw no bias here. Terran's my main race in BW and in Sc2, and flash is the player I like and respect the most
At least someone knows what they're talking about.
Thank you.
ggs on both sides, and thanks for the translation smix
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Did anyone think that Jaedong looked really tired at before the first set when they were both standing in front of the crowd?... I mean his face looked like that of a Zombie O_o
YIKES what a bad 777th post
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Congratulations, Flash. Let's see a rematch in OSL finals!
Thanks Smix for translating.
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thanks for the translation! 
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O wow that's a lot of money..
FLASH Gogogo Win it all!
Of course remember to take care of your health first..
Health comes first! then win it all! AHahahah
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On August 29 2010 12:12 SimonB wrote:
I'd forgotten about those Goliath-M&M pushes Flash did for a period.
It really illustrates how Flash has grown. He used it several times with success in proleague before the Round of 16 in Bacchus09 OSL. At the time, there's a real buzz about this build.
So Flash tries to use it in his all-zerg group in the OSL and gets hard-countered by modified two-hatch mutas by Yarnc and Jaedong and gets knocked out of the tournament. He showed his hand too early. If he had saved it for the OSL, it probably would've done well.
So we fast-forward a year later, and Flash uses it again out-of-nowhere in these finals. Jaedong is expecting mech (especially on PR) and gets crushed.
Flash has always had some of the best mechanics around. It's only in the last year has he brought matching intelligence.
I think that build was born during the GOM season 2 on God's Garden. I remember Flash doing it quite a lot especially cross positions. He opened 1fac goliaths i think while turreting and quickly adding 3-4 raxes with fast +1 and defending the mutas with the help of range gols, then timing push and contain the zerg. On god's garden most zergs opened some sort of 3 hatch mutas and the 3rd secured gas allowed them an easy hive and tech switch, while defending all 3 bases with sunks and pressure, because if you allow zerg to take another main then it quickly became 6 gas zerg and at that time those late game mech strats were none exiting. Correct me if i am wrong.
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On August 28 2010 23:35 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, all of Flash's wins were just retarded and abusing Zerg's lack of scouting info vs Terran. 2 Timing pushes and goddamn gay 14CC win the last game. Even he admitted Jaedong outplayed him in the one game that actually came down to raw skill. Flash I love you and you're still my favorite player, but blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
On August 29 2010 09:04 Z3kk wrote:Fuck, I just finished watching the VODs... It was SOOOOO freaking close -____- LLWWL for Jaedong; I'm not BW genius so correct me if I'm wrong but Jaedong won on all mostly-balanced maps and lost on the Terran-imbalanced maps--wouldn't it have been a much better fight if the map pool was better (people have mentioned this many, many times already, but I'm still pissed the hell off). VERY unprofessional of the MSL organizers to have set Polaris Rhapsody as first and last sets... I'm pissed the hell off, damn it. + Show Spoiler +tl;dr BAWWWWWW terran-imba T____T Edit: after reading some of the other JD-fanboy posts, I am not one of them!  While it would feel good if I were to curse the name of Flash and demean him, I have to give him credit; he played phenomenally, and this season has irrefutably been a great one for him--his success is a different matter as compared to his rivalry with Jaedong. I just feel that Jaedong, who I think is playing better right now (overall), deserved the win more, but has been repeatedly screwed by the cheap-ass map pools. :/ I can't help but do the old "Jaedong/Flash=Federer/Nadal" comparison >3< Obviously, Flash "plays" like Federer ("perfection" and dominance), and Jaedong, Nadal ("passion" and more flamboyantly--sort of). However, my favorite tennis player is Federer, by far, and my favorite starcraft player is Jaedong (though he's closely followed by Stork ). The MSL final reminded me of last year's Aussie Open final, where Federer was sad after losing to Nadal (as JD lost to Flash yesterday fml). *SIGHHHHHHHHHHHH~* Okay, I'm done. On second though, maybe I should have blogged that. There's more content in this post than half of all blog entries anyway (though my post's quality is debatable >v<) Of course, THANKS SMIX!! ^^
As a Stork/Protoss fan, allow me to remind you that when it was swarm season, all the Zerg fans were like "hey, there's no imba, Protoss players are just less skilled. Maps might make some difference, but good players overcome that." So, Scott Tenormen, let me taste your delicious tears, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!
Whine and moan all you like, but according to Zerg fan's own logic, Flash is the deserving winner, and you should just sit down and shut up XD
+ Show Spoiler +That being said, PR being mechable is a Zerg nightmare. Of course, FS's massive distances, easy to hold expansions and luxuriously large spaces from a theoretical standpoint are just as anti-Terran, but somehow Terrans learned to adapt to these types of maps. And yes, T>Z, Z>P, P>T, that's BW, but all those that didn't complain during Swarm Season have no right to do so now.
On August 29 2010 06:26 teamsolid wrote:
Wow... if Flash wins the OSL too, this'll be the most epic grand slam ever. Winning MSL, PL AND OSL all in one year. Can't possibly get any better than that. Definitely surpassed Bonjwa status long ago.
Don't forget Winner's League. And if Flash wins the OSL, he will do something that no one has ever done before, so of course it will be epic.
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EPT
