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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 03 2010 19:47 J1.au wrote: Flash and Jaedong have a "deeper" understanding of Brood War than any "old-school" progamer ever had. You are mistaken if you think otherwise. That's right. You have to get close to competitive level and go there and see it, try it, to realise the magnitude of the level of today's champions. | ||
disciple
9071 Posts
On June 03 2010 19:41 Boonbag wrote: That's preciesly where you're wrong, the very fact they're doing it and nobody else should give you a few hints. I'm giving you here first hand information, because back then, for any producer getting involved into the business, it beeing, gameq, ogn, whoever, it was headache as to how make all these things happen. It's not about doing it better than them (I bet you my right arm you won't see anything coming close to OGN / MBC quality wise in the next 10 years), its the fact nobody else wants to. Nobody but Korea and a bunch of westerner care about esports. I'm making a point beeing that reading your article, cleary shows you have no idea how tv shows are beeing produced. That is all. Now believe youre right all you want, that won't help esports. All the mistakes you're pointing out are mistakes that come from T R Y I N G. These mistakes are normal. I mean, dude, you're argument sounds like it comes from the mouth of a 10 years old : "duh duh, they made mistakes they fail and suck for even trying !" the hell is that. Just in the beginning of the paragraph I said the development of the scene is driven by tryouts and fails, but I think in general you are not getting the situation with esports in korea quite right. You made it sound like the scene is struggling to have public support and OGN and MBC did a great job by presenting their content. Why you are disregarding the fact, that there is a genuine interest about starcraft and esports in korea ? StarCraft is the second most watched sport program on TV, right behind football. The audience and the public interest are there, millions of dollars are made from commercials. The point of my article is to show that the structures involved in Esports - broadcasters, kespa, even the fans, were never able to create a solid core to secure the clear future of the scene. Because of that Blizzard are now coming out of 10 years long silence , and are basically saying "hurr durr, esports is ours". In the worst case scenario they are just going to murder BW. Of course Flash has a very deep understanding about the game, what else do you think is making the difference between him and the  Sea of regular progamers ?Using the best players in a certain sport to make a general statement is completely wrong | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 03 2010 19:56 disciple wrote: Just in the beginning of the paragraph I said the development of the scene is driven by tryouts and fails, but I think in general you are not getting the situation with esports in korea quite right. You made it sound like the scene is struggling to have public support and OGN and MBC did a great job by presenting their content. Why you are disregarding the fact, that there is a genuine interest about starcraft and esports in korea ? StarCraft is the second most watched sport program on TV, right behind football. The audience and the public interest are there, millions of dollars are made from commercials. The point of my article is to show that the structures involved in Esports - broadcasters, kespa, even the fans, were never able to create a solid core to secure the clear future of the scene. Because of that Blizzard are now coming out of 10 years long silence , and are basically saying "hurr durr, esports is ours". In the worst case scenario they are just going to murder BW. Of course Flash has a very deep understanding about the game, what else do you think is making the difference between him and all others? They failed to secure a future for esports ? Dude they ARE esports. There are so many misconceptions in your words on Korea and esports. They builded all you see from scratches. Where they got today is nothing less than impressive. And I really find gutsy and disrespectful to write a tiny bit of article here on TL saying they have failed, while you precisely are able to write this article because they actually didn't... | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
Without all the pc rooms = no pro gaming. You have yet to find another country that has as much pc rooms. China is the unique candidate on earth to grow esports outside Korea. I mean come on, design a programm that fits the viewership around a sole game. All this is far more complicated than you make it sound. It's not about doing it bad or wrong, there was no method, no way of doing it. They fucking invented it. To me all this sounds like disguised hate towards this system and jealousy, to not have the same thing in Europe or US. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
If you can't understand that, then you won't ever be able to negotiate any serious sponsorship for any event. I'm not talking about cash prizes here. I'm talking about building an equivalent system. | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
On June 03 2010 20:10 Boonbag wrote: the incertainity towards esport's future doesn't come from the Korean Pro gaming system, but from the very fact it's about video games. If you can't understand that, then you won't ever be able to negotiate any serious sponsorship for any event. I'm not talking about cash prizes here. I'm talking about building an equivalent system. Just a note, before you start explaining don't triple post for goodness's sake. On a whole i guess i had to agree with you. To say, lets put someone else as a commentator back then. I would definitely dare to say that at that point of time, nobody knew what to do. Blaming them for their incompetence is not necessary as progaming is something that is still considered very young compared to soccer. | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game. Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere. MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god) "Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. " From a boxer interview : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107854 Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. It isn't =( | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:40 SpartiK1S wrote: So, my question, is what defines a "programmer"? I've always thought programmers do programming and stuff, write code rather than just play the game. Is this true? I've heard so many references to "this or that programmer", when all they seem to be are pros at starcraft. Hey kid stop smoking that stuff you're all messed up in the head already. A Programmer or coder is someone who writes computer software. A Pro-gamer is a professional gamer. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
SHINHAN BANK Pro League 2007 ■ CATV AD Value : USD 203 mil (Total view rating 1R 0.736, 2R 1.096) ■ New Media AD Value: USD 4.3 mil (Total view numbers 99,446,846) ■ Media Coverage : USD 9.4 mil Total PR Value of Pro League in last year reached USD 216.7 mil source is a KeSPA presentation | ||
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sc1saus
15 Posts
When I was young I was naive. I thought that when I'd be my age now all young people will be good at computers and stuff like that. After all they grew up with it right? Spin forwards to nowadays: most young kids play on the xbox a few hours per week or so but for the rest they do stuff like kickball, hanging around outside and most don't know their way around a pc at all except messenger and stuff like that. "Going back to the roots" argument is used in almost all things that have "gone serious". Kickball and the likes have the same people proclaiming stuff like that. Player earn too much! old players played for the love of the game! they say. Old musicians loved music more than the no talent hacks of nowadays! etc. etc. The thing is if something grows or grabs interest, money becomes involved at some point. This is inevitable so don't complain if things change because of it. The only way you would get it back to the "good old days" is by it dieing or destroying it. Finally, things don't keep growing on growth. In every low profile sport or activity people are always fixed on the optimistic scenario to grow their favourite thing: If I teach/show my friend this, he will like it and teach/show 10 more people and those 10 will teach/show 10 each also. Eventually it'll come on TV and people all over will start to enjoy it. Well not exactly... Your friend might not like it, his friends might not, it might be inherently uninteresting to most of mankind or they do all like it and will shortly lose interest or only keep a casual interest. You never know so you keep trying obviously, but it has to be worked for. This is why I think KeSPA gets a bad wrap. Most people here think SC becoming popular, professional and a sport in Korea was some kind of natural thing that was bound to happen or something. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On June 03 2010 22:18 StarStruck wrote: So many misconceptions I don't even know where to begin. :/ These are always the most frustrating posts to read. If you're not going to begin explaining then please don't post, it doesn't add any value to the discussion. Boonbag, whether we have PC bangs or not in the west doesn't affect how popular esports is. Just look how much MLG has grown since its birth. The quality of the production has grown immensely since it started, and it makes me want to watch it more. We don't need a replica of Korean culture to make esports more popular in the west. If Kespa and the broadcasters hadn't made the mistakes they had and did have a clear direction for esports in Korea, which they definitely didn't if you listen to Boxer who I would argue has the best insight into the situation, then maybe esports in Korea would be a better model for esports around the rest of the world. Or esports would at least be more popular in Korea. What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games. I don't see how the fact that esports is videogames will have any bearing on its success. Videogames are an acceptable past time in the west now, although they still have negative connotations. It sounds as if just because it is on a computer, you think it is doomed to fail. Why? | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game. Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere. MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god) "Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. " From a boxer interview : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107854 Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters Considered not in the abstract but as it actually exists, the only e-sports worthy of the name has been confined to South Korea and to Starcraft, and it has only been around for 10 years. Why did it arise there and nowhere else? That the audience was there for it does not strike me as a sufficient explanation, given that the industry had to be created from scratch. The same goes for all of the usual accounts involving the numbers of PC bangs and internet connections in South Korea. They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future. There’s the fact of Korea’s cultural and demographic homogeneity without which the propagation of a particular computer game, to a point where it permeates a whole national culture, and over a length of time far beyond what is permitted by the March of Technology, hardly seems likely. It is just as likely that Starcraft is an example of Nassim Taleb’s black swan, an outlier, an act that is not going to be repeated. Perhaps this is a pessimistic view, but let us not jump the gun and declare victory before the battle has even begun. There is a vast difference between computer games and sports. Sports are part of the permanent cultural heritage of a nation or a civilization. Computer games, on the other hand, are a consumer product with a typical “shelf life” measured in days, weeks, and very rarely in months. And this is precisely what makes Starcraft so special. As with any real sport, the Starcraft Phenomenon in Korea is basically a cultural one. It can’t be unthinkingly transposed elsewhere in the world and analyzed in the simplistic language of supply and demand. What is called for is a little humility, given that we cannot be certain that e-sports has any viable future, and most of all respect for those in Korea who have made getting thus far, incredibly, a reality. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 03 2010 22:50 HnR)hT wrote: Considered not in the abstract but as it actually exists, the only e-sports worthy of the name has been confined to South Korea and to Starcraft, and it has only been around for 10 years. Why did it arise there and nowhere else? That the audience was there for it does not strike me as a sufficient explanation, given that the industry had to be created from scratch. The same goes for all of the usual accounts involving the numbers of PC bangs and internet connections in South Korea. They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future. There’s the fact of Korea’s cultural and demographic homogeneity without which the propagation of a particular computer game, to a point where it permeates a whole national culture, and over a length of time far beyond what is permitted by the March of Technology, hardly seems likely. It is just as likely that Starcraft is an example of Nassim Taleb’s black swan, an outlier, an act that is not going to be repeated. Perhaps this is a pessimistic view, but let us not jump the gun and declare victory before the battle has even begun. There is a vast difference between computer games and sports. Sports are part of the permanent cultural heritage of a nation or a civilization. Computer games, on the other hand, are a consumer product with a typical “shelf life” measured in days, weeks, and very rarely in months. And this is precisely what makes Starcraft so special. As with any real sport, the Starcraft Phenomenon in Korea is basically a cultural one. It can’t be unthinkingly transposed elsewhere in the world and analyzed in the simplistic language of supply and demand. What is called for is a little humility, given that we cannot be certain that e-sports has any viable future, and most of all respect for those in Korea who have made getting thus far, incredibly, a reality. At the fucking last. Thank you. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 03 2010 22:11 disciple wrote: SHINHAN BANK Pro League 2007 ■ CATV AD Value : USD 203 mil (Total view rating 1R 0.736, 2R 1.096) ■ New Media AD Value: USD 4.3 mil (Total view numbers 99,446,846) ■ Media Coverage : USD 9.4 mil Total PR Value of Pro League in last year reached USD 216.7 mil source is a KeSPA presentation You named it. "Value". These are all estimations. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
You place the blame on Kespa for many problems in the system without crediting how they've evolved to make the scene more professional. Actually, if you examine the history of many professional sports, you will see that in their infancy they all had many awful practices. For example, early on in professional baseball, you had blatant racism, you also had teams controlling the players, you had betting on games, as well as a system that didn't have the budget to even buy new baseballs when they were needed. If you look at many other sports their early history is just as ugly to look at. While it's true it would be nice if Kespa treated players better, other sports were the same way in their early days, and Kespa is developing the same way many other sports authorities have developed. I also don't see why you associate MBC's struggles to secure a sponsor for the MSL to the broadcasters' relationship with Kespa. What does Kespa have to do with MBC's difficulties in attracting someone to agree to pay up some money in return for branding and ads? Unless you're implying somehow that Kespa represents all possible sponsors or that Kespa somehow influenced potential sponsors to not participate in sponsoring the MSL? New fans not remembering the exploits of the old stars is pretty normal. Here many new fans don't know of anyone except maybe Boxer. What about young basketball fans? Do they know much more than Jordan? It's not unexpected that a fan doesn't have the same emotional attachment to achievements made during times when they did not watch the sport. I also disagree that top players are succeeding by replicating "proven" optimal playing styles. Actually, given that the mechanical ability of players overall have risen dramatically (for some sort of evidence of this, you can consider the high APM of many players), what sets successful players apart is their decision-making. If there WERE proven optimal strategies, then players who could execute such strategies the best would be the winners, but the players who are strongest mechanically aren't necessarily the winners. Now if you claim that only certain players know of the "proven" optimal strategies, then they aren't truly "proven" universally, and instead are an advantage for those players who have created or adopted those styles. I also entirely disagree with the idea that Blizzard is viewing SC2/BW as an esport first, having "stopped being simply a game". Despite what comes out of their PR mouthpieces, they are investing precious few resources in pushing SC2 (or BW) as an esport. You judge someone's intentions by their actions, not their words - and Blizzard's actions show that the esport aspect of SC2 or BW is far from being their top priority. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
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