Ever since the SC2Beta came out, I'm feeling quite uneasy. At first I was curious what the game was like and above all else, whether it was fun to play or not. I'm pretty sure most of us approached the game exactly the same way, apart from a significant group of high skill players, which from day one look at StarCraft 2 as an opportunity for a progaming career. Pretty fast, it became clear to me that the game is indeed quite well thought out, and as a pure entertainment value, its arguably as good as BroodWar. Hearing the opinion of the community or not, Blizzard will get the game right eventually.
With the progress of the beta, and the launch date of the game being announced, the focus to StarCraft 2 as a game, purely as a product designed for entertainment, shifted to StarCraft 2 - The ESPORT. Reading the latest developments of the KeSPA - Blizzard negotiations, as well as news regarding the match-fixing scandal made me suddenly realize that "shit got serious". At some point of time StarCraft:BroodWar stopped being a game, it just lost the initial purpose of its creating and became a sport, watched and enjoyed by many around the world, a sport that was able to draw the attention of sponsors and media companies. The rapid development of the professional StarCraft scene provoked many questions, but no one really paid enough attention to the issues because for 10 years all went so smoothly, that just now, with StarCraft 2 around the corner, many things became obvious :
The organization that was assembled "to run" esports in Korea, to set the regulations and define rules was not mature enough to do its job. The constant misunderstanding between KeSPA, the broadcaster companies and the fans was in the end used by Blizzard to their greatest benefit. It became clear that KeSPA doesn't have the public respect and the partners to hold things in a tight grip. Furthermore KeSPA's influence on the happening in the scene became extremely questionable. With the raging match-fixing scandal, fundamental flaws in the system, that KeSPA represents, were exposed. The lack of rules regarding the relationship between the teams and the sponsors with the players is obvious. It certainly isn't the main reason for the whole scandal, but it compromised KeSPA in its main goal- to protect the most valuable and vulnerable part of the esports - the players. KeSPA's effort to establish strict rules, just caused some drama, confusion and fun within the community (remember the "ppp" and "a" ?) . But the big failure of KeSPA in this case is actually the image the organization built for itself in the eyes of the fans. By acting inadequate and incompetent in a couple of key moments, KeSPA lost the support of the fans.
Another big problem for years is the so called KeSPA ranking. Put the weird formula for its calculation aside, the ranking itself is completely pointless. There is no other individual sport, where the personal ranking system, doesn't have any influence on the structure of the tournaments, sanctioned by it. In other words, the KeSPA ranking doesn't reward, or protect the best players, it just represent statistical evidence of good performance. MBC's effort to implement the ranking in the MSL came too little too late. Not only that but the change was accepted rather negative from the community. The only stage of OSL where the ranking is of some use are the prelims. Does it really matter if Jaedong is getting a BYE in the first round? With or without the ranking, things were basically going to be the same, but the benefits of useful and respected ranking system are proven already many times - motivation for the players, balanced distribution of the players in the tournament brackets. Again, by presenting and supporting a useless official ranking system, KeSPA is showing for many years, that it has no influence on the tournaments it was supposed to run.
For 10 years, the development of the professional StarCraft scene in Korea was driven by tryouts and failures. The structure of the two individual leagues, as well as the Proleague was constantly changed, and every years cycle consisted of crowning the champion and searching a sponsor for the next season. Although the leagues got the interest of constant partners like Shinhan Bank and Ever, the two broadcasting companies were not able to cooperate with each other and with KeSPA for a long period of time, which disturbed the healthy growth of professional StarCraft. The latest prove for that was MBC's struggle to find a sponsor for the MSL. And while MBC tend to fail more than OGN by hosting the tournaments, the OSL organizers showed many times in the past, they have no idea where esports must go. Its a well known fact, that historically, most of the dominant players were able to perform more consistently in the MSL, but failed to defend their championship in the OSL. Kim Carrier's curse is a stupid excuse - the main reason was that OGN changed the format of the tournament almost every season. The only slight effort in some long term thinking was the introduction of the Golden Mouse and shortly after the Golden Badge. Lets not forget the Golden Mouse was originally designed to just be the highlight of Boxers career, but as we all know, he never won that 3rd OSL. Summed up, everything only shows that people involved in esports just let things happen, instead of having a long term plan about the development of the scene. StarCraft 2 totally caught the broadcaster companies with their pants down.
Indeed for 10 years, the scene underwent a really fast paced evolution, but the fans of StarCraft are changing their mindset with it as well. The regular spectators of nowadays, which are enjoying the last years of professional SC:BW are going to have many similarities with the people who are going to follow StarCraft 2 in the years to come. But initially, the Broodwar scene accumulated a lot of spectators for a very different reason, a reason that wont exist when SC2 comes out - it was simply a very fun game, the all seriousness of being an esport wasn't even existing by that time. For sure the level of play was much below today's standards, but there was plenty of room for creativity, which made the whole progress of each game more or less unpredictable. Of course, SC2 being a completely different game, wont have the same theory database and there will be indeed some space for creativity, but the approach to the game and its technical features will speed up the evolution of the metagame, compared to SC:BW, dramatically. Having that said, from day one SC2 will produce highly skilled players, which will be entirely different from the guys, who played in space suits 10 years ago. But with different type of players, we have different type of fans. The "values" of StarCraft have changed, with them the things the regular fan appreciates, as well.
If you think this game is terrible, you must've start watching StarCraft around Batoo OSL
The problem is that fans tend to completely disregard the careers and the contributions of the "old-school" players, by comparing their absolute skill to the progamers of today. StarCraft is not a sport of absolute skill, being the complex game that it is, the changes in the metagame, as well as deeper and more common knowledge of the build order theory, caused a constant evolution of the level of play. If you line up Capablanca in his best days against some mid-tear 2600ish GM of today, the great José Raúl is gonna get destroyed - he will see moves that he will barely understand, moves that the regular modern day Grand Master just memorizes from the computer analysis. Because of the replays, the same thing happened with StarCraft, but with chess the process took more than 80 years.
That being said, the last generation of progamers just replicate in their playing style whats proven by the theory to be the best. They are completely robotic, and it should come as no surprise that the players with the deepest understanding about the game are from the old-school. Nothing from what I've said in the last two paragraph is new, but my point is that the short-term memory of fans, made us forget what made SC:BW so special, and what actually caused the being of esports. If I have to object the statement from the latest OSL article, I would say yet again, that EffOrt created no legacy - he is the legacy himself. As a player he is a product 10 years long refinement,and as fans who are prizing the amazing skills of Jaedong and Flash, we should never forget the godfathers, all the 1.00 players that pioneered the professional gaming.
No matter how much we complain about the current Blizzard policy, they will most like not going to change the direction they took. The fact of the matter is that Blizzard realized as well, that their original creation, StarCraft: Broodwar stopped being simply a game at some point and developed to esports. Now they just want to put their hands in the honey pot of broadcasting rights and ads money as well. All 3 aspects I've pointed out - the incompetence of KeSPA, the bad coordination of the broadcasters and the short-term memory of the fans, make esports fragile. Esports are a serious thing, being fans of starcraft we are serious as well - arguing about PvZ, TvZ and map imbalance all the time. But with SC2 around the corner and as customers of Blizzards product, we have something to remember - what made SC:BW so great.
I'm going to bump this. Will make a substantial comment with a response to my thread after I find some time. People should read this, and there is good discussion to be found from here.
I first heard about the "mystical" Korean gods of starcraft maybe 8 years ago in middle school, with nothing to fill that void in my head but ideas and imagination. It was not 6 months ago that i heard about starcraft 2, and watched a battle report by the testers.
This changed everything.
What used to be a game of massing carriers and microing 50 seige tanks at a time on fastest became a real battle. A war of minds in the form of a computer game. Since that moment of seeing the infinitely deeper knowledge and skill of starcraft than I ever thought possible, I just thought, "I want this". I bought a computer a few months ago specifically for SC2, and after hours of watching old korean pro vids on youtube and learning the names of the Korean gods such as Boxer, I felt I was prepared to take SC2 and do just as Boxer or any great pro has done. I figured that SC2 coming out seemed like a real chance to jump in the rushing river of being pro at the game, as I had little interest in starting SC1 from scratch and try to get good that way.
So, my question, is what defines a "programmer"? I've always thought programmers do programming and stuff, write code rather than just play the game. Is this true? I've heard so many references to "this or that programmer", when all they seem to be are pros at starcraft.
i think there's quite a bit of speculation in the article and to explain these things you must go a bit deeper (imo)... If sc2 will be the future, who knows... i certainly hope not -_-
So, my question, is what defines a "programmer"? I've always thought programmers do programming and stuff, write code rather than just play the game. Is this true? I've heard so many references to "this or that programmer", when all they seem to be are pros at starcraft.
Wait a sec here, are you mistaking "P_R_O_G_R_A_M_M_E_R" for "P_R_O_G_A_M_E_R"?
So, my question, is what defines a "programmer"? I've always thought programmers do programming and stuff, write code rather than just play the game. Is this true? I've heard so many references to "this or that programmer", when all they seem to be are pros at starcraft.
Progamer (professional gamer) plays a game for living. The game is his profession.
Programmer creates programs and writes code etc. for a living.
Two quite different things.
If sc2 will be the future, who knows... i certainly hope not -_-
BW has already reached its peak and had its time, there's no way BW would've ever become anything bigger. It's about time we move on to a game that can help esports become a lot bigger and not just in Korea.
On June 01 2010 05:51 disciple wrote: That being said, the last generation of progamers just replicate in their playing style whats proven by the theory to be the best. They are completely robotic, and it should come as no surprise that the players with the deepest understanding about the game are from the old-school.
The latest generation has certainly built on what has come before. But there is no way in hell that Flash's understanding of the game is shallower than Boxer's or Stork's is shallower than Garimto's.
On June 03 2010 17:00 Puosu wrote: BW has already reached its peak and had its time, there's no way BW would've ever become anything bigger. It's about time we move on to a game that can help esports become a lot bigger and not just in Korea.
Well, I'm perfectly fine with MSL, OSL and Proleague. So it doesn't have to become bigger. If ->you<- want to move on, do so, but don't speak for other people.
The way you see esports in Korea is to say the least : quite weird.
Especially the starcraft analysis and the player's performances.
I would say, nobody but pro gamers are qualified to actually give a proper definition of what they're doing.
Go tell flash he's a robot, it'll take him 30 seconds to prove you he isn't.
Not to mention the title "no concept for the future", just proves how little you know on how all these things are run over there.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. Making a TV programm is much more complicated than you think.
Actually, I challenge you to find me a single TV programm in the rest of the world that comes any close to what OGN or MBC are doing. Quality and content wise.
EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
What point are you trying to make here? So what if it's about video games? A hundred and fifty years ago, football (Americans, read: soccer) was all about kicking a ball around. That didn't stop it from becoming an enormous worldwide phenomenon that it is today, with millions of spectators and superstars.
We aren't being optimistic, we just recognise the fact that as with all things historically, the prejudice that video games are childish and silly will eventually fall apart. Infact, one could argue that the process is occuring with video games much more quickly then in other cases. Nowadays, gaming is a lot more mainstream then it was 10 years ago.
So I see no reason why e-Sports can't become bigger then what it currently is in Korea. It can, but it will take some time and willpower to make that a reality.
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
What point are you trying to make here? So what if it's about video games? A hundred and fifty years ago, football (Americans, read: soccer) was all about kicking a ball around. That didn't stop it from becoming an enormous worldwide phenomenon that it is today, with millions of spectators and superstars.
We aren't being optimistic, we just recognise the fact that as with all things historically, the prejudice that video games are childish and silly will eventually fall apart. Infact, one could argue that the process is occuring with video games much more quickly then in other cases. Nowadays, gaming is a lot more mainstream then it was 10 years ago.
So I see no reason why e-Sports can't become bigger then what it currently is in Korea. It can, but it will take some time and willpower to make that a reality.
Actually, I disagree. The industry is making much more money as a form of entertainement. This has nothing to do with playing games beeing sports.
The very fact you see things this way may doom esports.
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: I almost disagree entirely with the article.
The way you see esports in Korea is to say the least : quite weird.
Especially the starcraft analysis and the player's performances.
I would say, nobody but pro gamers are qualified to actually give a proper definition of what they're doing.
Go tell flash he's a robot, it'll take him 30 seconds to prove you he isn't.
Not to mention the title "no concept for the future", just proves how little you know on how all these things are run over there.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. Making a TV programm is much more complicated than you think.
Actually, I challenge you to find me a single TV programm in the rest of the world that comes any close to what OGN or MBC are doing. Quality and content wise.
EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
you are making no point. If you are going to object my "no concept for the future statement" at least present some evidence, and not just say " you have no idea". Your challenge is completely pointless, since content wise OGN and MBC are offering a unique product. If there's no one else doing it, it doesnt mean they are doing it right
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: I almost disagree entirely with the article.
The way you see esports in Korea is to say the least : quite weird.
Especially the starcraft analysis and the player's performances.
I would say, nobody but pro gamers are qualified to actually give a proper definition of what they're doing.
Go tell flash he's a robot, it'll take him 30 seconds to prove you he isn't.
Not to mention the title "no concept for the future", just proves how little you know on how all these things are run over there.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. Making a TV programm is much more complicated than you think.
Actually, I challenge you to find me a single TV programm in the rest of the world that comes any close to what OGN or MBC are doing. Quality and content wise.
EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
you are making no point. If you are going to object my "no concept for the future statement" at least present some evidence, and not just say " you have no idea". Your challenge is completely pointless, since content wise OGN and MBC are offering a unique product. If there's no one else doing it, it doesnt mean they are doing it right
That's preciesly where you're wrong, the very fact they're doing it and nobody else should give you a few hints.
I'm giving you here first hand information, because back then, for any producer getting involved into the business, it beeing, gameq, ogn, whoever, it was headache as to how make all these things happen.
It's not about doing it better than them (I bet you my right arm you won't see anything coming close to OGN / MBC quality wise in the next 10 years), its the fact nobody else wants to.
Nobody but Korea and a bunch of westerner care about esports.
I'm making a point beeing that reading your article, cleary shows you have no idea how tv shows are beeing produced.
That is all. Now believe youre right all you want, that won't help esports.
All the mistakes you're pointing out are mistakes that come from T R Y I N G.
These mistakes are normal. I mean, dude, you're argument sounds like it comes from the mouth of a 10 years old :
"duh duh, they made mistakes they fail and suck for even trying !"
On June 03 2010 17:00 Puosu wrote: BW has already reached its peak and had its time, there's no way BW would've ever become anything bigger. It's about time we move on to a game that can help esports become a lot bigger and not just in Korea.
Well, I'm perfectly fine with MSL, OSL and Proleague. So it doesn't have to become bigger. If ->you<- want to move on, do so, but don't speak for other people.
Yeah if things get bigger or stay as they are, does it matter... As long as things don't die completely it doesn't really bother me at all.
On June 03 2010 19:47 J1.au wrote: Flash and Jaedong have a "deeper" understanding of Brood War than any "old-school" progamer ever had. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
That's right.
You have to get close to competitive level and go there and see it, try it, to realise the magnitude of the level of today's champions.
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: I almost disagree entirely with the article.
The way you see esports in Korea is to say the least : quite weird.
Especially the starcraft analysis and the player's performances.
I would say, nobody but pro gamers are qualified to actually give a proper definition of what they're doing.
Go tell flash he's a robot, it'll take him 30 seconds to prove you he isn't.
Not to mention the title "no concept for the future", just proves how little you know on how all these things are run over there.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. Making a TV programm is much more complicated than you think.
Actually, I challenge you to find me a single TV programm in the rest of the world that comes any close to what OGN or MBC are doing. Quality and content wise.
EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
you are making no point. If you are going to object my "no concept for the future statement" at least present some evidence, and not just say " you have no idea". Your challenge is completely pointless, since content wise OGN and MBC are offering a unique product. If there's no one else doing it, it doesnt mean they are doing it right
That's preciesly where you're wrong, the very fact they're doing it and nobody else should give you a few hints.
I'm giving you here first hand information, because back then, for any producer getting involved into the business, it beeing, gameq, ogn, whoever, it was headache as to how make all these things happen.
It's not about doing it better than them (I bet you my right arm you won't see anything coming close to OGN / MBC quality wise in the next 10 years), its the fact nobody else wants to.
Nobody but Korea and a bunch of westerner care about esports.
I'm making a point beeing that reading your article, cleary shows you have no idea how tv shows are beeing produced.
That is all. Now believe youre right all you want, that won't help esports.
All the mistakes you're pointing out are mistakes that come from T R Y I N G.
These mistakes are normal. I mean, dude, you're argument sounds like it comes from the mouth of a 10 years old :
"duh duh, they made mistakes they fail and suck for even trying !"
the hell is that.
Just in the beginning of the paragraph I said the development of the scene is driven by tryouts and fails, but I think in general you are not getting the situation with esports in korea quite right. You made it sound like the scene is struggling to have public support and OGN and MBC did a great job by presenting their content. Why you are disregarding the fact, that there is a genuine interest about starcraft and esports in korea ? StarCraft is the second most watched sport program on TV, right behind football. The audience and the public interest are there, millions of dollars are made from commercials. The point of my article is to show that the structures involved in Esports - broadcasters, kespa, even the fans, were never able to create a solid core to secure the clear future of the scene. Because of that Blizzard are now coming out of 10 years long silence , and are basically saying "hurr durr, esports is ours". In the worst case scenario they are just going to murder BW.
Of course Flash has a very deep understanding about the game, what else do you think is making the difference between him and the Sea of regular progamers ?
Using the best players in a certain sport to make a general statement is completely wrong
On June 03 2010 18:02 Boonbag wrote: I almost disagree entirely with the article.
The way you see esports in Korea is to say the least : quite weird.
Especially the starcraft analysis and the player's performances.
I would say, nobody but pro gamers are qualified to actually give a proper definition of what they're doing.
Go tell flash he's a robot, it'll take him 30 seconds to prove you he isn't.
Not to mention the title "no concept for the future", just proves how little you know on how all these things are run over there.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. Making a TV programm is much more complicated than you think.
Actually, I challenge you to find me a single TV programm in the rest of the world that comes any close to what OGN or MBC are doing. Quality and content wise.
EDIT : What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
You people are all so optimistic.
you are making no point. If you are going to object my "no concept for the future statement" at least present some evidence, and not just say " you have no idea". Your challenge is completely pointless, since content wise OGN and MBC are offering a unique product. If there's no one else doing it, it doesnt mean they are doing it right
That's preciesly where you're wrong, the very fact they're doing it and nobody else should give you a few hints.
I'm giving you here first hand information, because back then, for any producer getting involved into the business, it beeing, gameq, ogn, whoever, it was headache as to how make all these things happen.
It's not about doing it better than them (I bet you my right arm you won't see anything coming close to OGN / MBC quality wise in the next 10 years), its the fact nobody else wants to.
Nobody but Korea and a bunch of westerner care about esports.
I'm making a point beeing that reading your article, cleary shows you have no idea how tv shows are beeing produced.
That is all. Now believe youre right all you want, that won't help esports.
All the mistakes you're pointing out are mistakes that come from T R Y I N G.
These mistakes are normal. I mean, dude, you're argument sounds like it comes from the mouth of a 10 years old :
"duh duh, they made mistakes they fail and suck for even trying !"
the hell is that.
Just in the beginning of the paragraph I said the development of the scene is driven by tryouts and fails, but I think in general you are not getting the situation with esports in korea quite right. You made it sound like the scene is struggling to have public support and OGN and MBC did a great job by presenting their content. Why you are disregarding the fact, that there is a genuine interest about starcraft and esports in korea ? StarCraft is the second most watched sport program on TV, right behind football. The audience and the public interest are there, millions of dollars are made from commercials. The point of my article is to show that the structures involved in Esports - broadcasters, kespa, even the fans, were never able to create a solid core to secure the clear future of the scene. Because of that Blizzard are now coming out of 10 years long silence , and are basically saying "hurr durr, esports is ours". In the worst case scenario they are just going to murder BW.
Of course Flash has a very deep understanding about the game, what else do you think is making the difference between him and all others?
They failed to secure a future for esports ?
Dude they ARE esports.
There are so many misconceptions in your words on Korea and esports. They builded all you see from scratches. Where they got today is nothing less than impressive.
And I really find gutsy and disrespectful to write a tiny bit of article here on TL saying they have failed, while you precisely are able to write this article because they actually didn't...
the incertainity towards esport's future doesn't come from the Korean Pro gaming system, but from the very fact it's about video games.
If you can't understand that, then you won't ever be able to negotiate any serious sponsorship for any event. I'm not talking about cash prizes here. I'm talking about building an equivalent system.
On June 03 2010 20:10 Boonbag wrote: the incertainity towards esport's future doesn't come from the Korean Pro gaming system, but from the very fact it's about video games.
If you can't understand that, then you won't ever be able to negotiate any serious sponsorship for any event. I'm not talking about cash prizes here. I'm talking about building an equivalent system.
Just a note, before you start explaining don't triple post for goodness's sake.
On a whole i guess i had to agree with you. To say, lets put someone else as a commentator back then. I would definitely dare to say that at that point of time, nobody knew what to do. Blaming them for their incompetence is not necessary as progaming is something that is still considered very young compared to soccer.
I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game.
Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere.
MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god)
"Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. "
On June 03 2010 16:40 SpartiK1S wrote: So, my question, is what defines a "programmer"? I've always thought programmers do programming and stuff, write code rather than just play the game. Is this true? I've heard so many references to "this or that programmer", when all they seem to be are pros at starcraft.
Hey kid stop smoking that stuff you're all messed up in the head already. A Programmer or coder is someone who writes computer software. A Pro-gamer is a professional gamer.
I don't understand why there's so much negativity on this site towards Kespa, OGN and MBCGame. Are they perfect? Of course not, but what they have delivered has been amazing- some of the most entertaining sports/entertainment (whatever you want to call it) that I have ever seen and they've done a hell of a lot more for Esports than has been managed in any other country. BW is an amazing game, no doubt, but if it wasn't for the Korean scene most of us probably wouldn't still be playing/watching it. I, for one, am really grateful that it exists and for all the work that has been put into it.
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that.
It isn't =(
SHINHAN BANK Pro League 2007 ■ CATV AD Value : USD 203 mil (Total view rating 1R 0.736, 2R 1.096) ■ New Media AD Value: USD 4.3 mil (Total view numbers 99,446,846) ■ Media Coverage : USD 9.4 mil Total PR Value of Pro League in last year reached USD 216.7 mil
Well but kicking balls is kicking balls + being a baller irl. SC is mouse clicking, how can you compare esports and kickball sports? It worked in Korea since it's obsessed with technology. It might work elsewhere but you can be realistic about it too.
When I was young I was naive. I thought that when I'd be my age now all young people will be good at computers and stuff like that. After all they grew up with it right? Spin forwards to nowadays: most young kids play on the xbox a few hours per week or so but for the rest they do stuff like kickball, hanging around outside and most don't know their way around a pc at all except messenger and stuff like that.
"Going back to the roots" argument is used in almost all things that have "gone serious". Kickball and the likes have the same people proclaiming stuff like that. Player earn too much! old players played for the love of the game! they say. Old musicians loved music more than the no talent hacks of nowadays! etc. etc. The thing is if something grows or grabs interest, money becomes involved at some point. This is inevitable so don't complain if things change because of it. The only way you would get it back to the "good old days" is by it dieing or destroying it.
Finally, things don't keep growing on growth. In every low profile sport or activity people are always fixed on the optimistic scenario to grow their favourite thing: If I teach/show my friend this, he will like it and teach/show 10 more people and those 10 will teach/show 10 each also. Eventually it'll come on TV and people all over will start to enjoy it. Well not exactly... Your friend might not like it, his friends might not, it might be inherently uninteresting to most of mankind or they do all like it and will shortly lose interest or only keep a casual interest. You never know so you keep trying obviously, but it has to be worked for.
This is why I think KeSPA gets a bad wrap. Most people here think SC becoming popular, professional and a sport in Korea was some kind of natural thing that was bound to happen or something.
On June 03 2010 22:18 StarStruck wrote: So many misconceptions I don't even know where to begin. :/
These are always the most frustrating posts to read. If you're not going to begin explaining then please don't post, it doesn't add any value to the discussion.
Boonbag, whether we have PC bangs or not in the west doesn't affect how popular esports is. Just look how much MLG has grown since its birth. The quality of the production has grown immensely since it started, and it makes me want to watch it more. We don't need a replica of Korean culture to make esports more popular in the west.
If Kespa and the broadcasters hadn't made the mistakes they had and did have a clear direction for esports in Korea, which they definitely didn't if you listen to Boxer who I would argue has the best insight into the situation, then maybe esports in Korea would be a better model for esports around the rest of the world. Or esports would at least be more popular in Korea.
What many fail to realise or even attempt to consider, is that there maybe is a chance Pro gaming won't evolve into anything bigger than what has been done in Korea. Mainly because it's about video games.
I don't see how the fact that esports is videogames will have any bearing on its success. Videogames are an acceptable past time in the west now, although they still have negative connotations. It sounds as if just because it is on a computer, you think it is doomed to fail. Why?
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game.
Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere.
MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god)
"Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. "
Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters
Considered not in the abstract but as it actually exists, the only e-sports worthy of the name has been confined to South Korea and to Starcraft, and it has only been around for 10 years. Why did it arise there and nowhere else? That the audience was there for it does not strike me as a sufficient explanation, given that the industry had to be created from scratch. The same goes for all of the usual accounts involving the numbers of PC bangs and internet connections in South Korea. They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future.
There’s the fact of Korea’s cultural and demographic homogeneity without which the propagation of a particular computer game, to a point where it permeates a whole national culture, and over a length of time far beyond what is permitted by the March of Technology, hardly seems likely. It is just as likely that Starcraft is an example of Nassim Taleb’s black swan, an outlier, an act that is not going to be repeated. Perhaps this is a pessimistic view, but let us not jump the gun and declare victory before the battle has even begun.
There is a vast difference between computer games and sports. Sports are part of the permanent cultural heritage of a nation or a civilization. Computer games, on the other hand, are a consumer product with a typical “shelf life” measured in days, weeks, and very rarely in months. And this is precisely what makes Starcraft so special. As with any real sport, the Starcraft Phenomenon in Korea is basically a cultural one. It can’t be unthinkingly transposed elsewhere in the world and analyzed in the simplistic language of supply and demand. What is called for is a little humility, given that we cannot be certain that e-sports has any viable future, and most of all respect for those in Korea who have made getting thus far, incredibly, a reality.
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game.
Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere.
MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god)
"Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. "
Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters
Considered not in the abstract but as it actually exists, the only e-sports worthy of the name has been confined to South Korea and to Starcraft, and it has only been around for 10 years. Why did it arise there and nowhere else? That the audience was there for it does not strike me as a sufficient explanation, given that the industry had to be created from scratch. The same goes for all of the usual accounts involving the numbers of PC bangs and internet connections in South Korea. They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future.
There’s the fact of Korea’s cultural and demographic homogeneity without which the propagation of a particular computer game, to a point where it permeates a whole national culture, and over a length of time far beyond what is permitted by the March of Technology, hardly seems likely. It is just as likely that Starcraft is an example of Nassim Taleb’s black swan, an outlier, an act that is not going to be repeated. Perhaps this is a pessimistic view, but let us not jump the gun and declare victory before the battle has even begun.
There is a vast difference between computer games and sports. Sports are part of the permanent cultural heritage of a nation or a civilization. Computer games, on the other hand, are a consumer product with a typical “shelf life” measured in days, weeks, and very rarely in months. And this is precisely what makes Starcraft so special. As with any real sport, the Starcraft Phenomenon in Korea is basically a cultural one. It can’t be unthinkingly transposed elsewhere in the world and analyzed in the simplistic language of supply and demand. What is called for is a little humility, given that we cannot be certain that e-sports has any viable future, and most of all respect for those in Korea who have made getting thus far, incredibly, a reality.
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that.
It isn't =(
SHINHAN BANK Pro League 2007 ■ CATV AD Value : USD 203 mil (Total view rating 1R 0.736, 2R 1.096) ■ New Media AD Value: USD 4.3 mil (Total view numbers 99,446,846) ■ Media Coverage : USD 9.4 mil Total PR Value of Pro League in last year reached USD 216.7 mil
About the only thing I agree with you is the idea that esports is fragile.
You place the blame on Kespa for many problems in the system without crediting how they've evolved to make the scene more professional. Actually, if you examine the history of many professional sports, you will see that in their infancy they all had many awful practices. For example, early on in professional baseball, you had blatant racism, you also had teams controlling the players, you had betting on games, as well as a system that didn't have the budget to even buy new baseballs when they were needed. If you look at many other sports their early history is just as ugly to look at. While it's true it would be nice if Kespa treated players better, other sports were the same way in their early days, and Kespa is developing the same way many other sports authorities have developed.
I also don't see why you associate MBC's struggles to secure a sponsor for the MSL to the broadcasters' relationship with Kespa. What does Kespa have to do with MBC's difficulties in attracting someone to agree to pay up some money in return for branding and ads? Unless you're implying somehow that Kespa represents all possible sponsors or that Kespa somehow influenced potential sponsors to not participate in sponsoring the MSL?
New fans not remembering the exploits of the old stars is pretty normal. Here many new fans don't know of anyone except maybe Boxer. What about young basketball fans? Do they know much more than Jordan? It's not unexpected that a fan doesn't have the same emotional attachment to achievements made during times when they did not watch the sport.
I also disagree that top players are succeeding by replicating "proven" optimal playing styles. Actually, given that the mechanical ability of players overall have risen dramatically (for some sort of evidence of this, you can consider the high APM of many players), what sets successful players apart is their decision-making. If there WERE proven optimal strategies, then players who could execute such strategies the best would be the winners, but the players who are strongest mechanically aren't necessarily the winners. Now if you claim that only certain players know of the "proven" optimal strategies, then they aren't truly "proven" universally, and instead are an advantage for those players who have created or adopted those styles.
I also entirely disagree with the idea that Blizzard is viewing SC2/BW as an esport first, having "stopped being simply a game". Despite what comes out of their PR mouthpieces, they are investing precious few resources in pushing SC2 (or BW) as an esport. You judge someone's intentions by their actions, not their words - and Blizzard's actions show that the esport aspect of SC2 or BW is far from being their top priority.
On June 03 2010 22:50 HnR)hT wrote: They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future.
The rest of HrR)hT's post is worth reading - but I'll quote this portion just to emphasize it. The multitudes of people holding the idea that somehow the next video game X will succeed in the west as an esport to the scale that Brood War has succeeded in South Korea, is ignoring the weight of past evidence in which no other game has ever reached the same level.
With a simplistic view it's true if there's an audience, then sponsors will be attracted, but that's ignoring many other important factors, such as the infrastructure necessary to produce a show on a regular basis in a consistent manner, or marketing information for potential sponsors about the audience being reached. Certainly something essential was missing in previous attempts at televised competitive video games in the west given that they all failed in the end.
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: I for one cant understand the logic of Boonbag, heres why
Esports is all about the money, its a marketing product, simple as that. You have group of people producing content (progamers) and another large group of people willing to buy it ( the audience, that have casual interest about the game). Because the second party doesnt exist in Europe and the States, we dont have an esports scene as well developed as in Korea. The public is skeptical because the subject of interest is a computer game.
Korean sponsors invest in esports because there is a public interest, a group of people willing to buy, that is. Thats why advertising via esports makes sense in first place. Broadcasters come as the link between the people producing the content, the general public and the sponsors. Sponsors are attracted by the fans, money is attracted by the fans. Saying that Broadcasters and KeSPA are esports is completely wrong. If they were, esports would be possible everywhere.
MBC's incompetence with the NATE msl finals caused a huge blow on the image of the scene . Securing the future of esports? My ass. Broadcasters and KeSPa's incompetence cause a withdraw of some fans, which as a result made starcraft less attractive for the sponsors (which is true for MSL, but OSL proved it wrong thank god)
"Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. "
Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters
Considered not in the abstract but as it actually exists, the only e-sports worthy of the name has been confined to South Korea and to Starcraft, and it has only been around for 10 years. Why did it arise there and nowhere else? That the audience was there for it does not strike me as a sufficient explanation, given that the industry had to be created from scratch. The same goes for all of the usual accounts involving the numbers of PC bangs and internet connections in South Korea. They don’t answer, and so far no one has been able to answer, two basic questions: Why Starcraft? And, why only Starcraft? Until this is better understood, there is no good reason to predict anything like the Ongamenet Starleague in the West in the near future.
There’s the fact of Korea’s cultural and demographic homogeneity without which the propagation of a particular computer game, to a point where it permeates a whole national culture, and over a length of time far beyond what is permitted by the March of Technology, hardly seems likely. It is just as likely that Starcraft is an example of Nassim Taleb’s black swan, an outlier, an act that is not going to be repeated. Perhaps this is a pessimistic view, but let us not jump the gun and declare victory before the battle has even begun.
There is a vast difference between computer games and sports. Sports are part of the permanent cultural heritage of a nation or a civilization. Computer games, on the other hand, are a consumer product with a typical “shelf life” measured in days, weeks, and very rarely in months. And this is precisely what makes Starcraft so special. As with any real sport, the Starcraft Phenomenon in Korea is basically a cultural one. It can’t be unthinkingly transposed elsewhere in the world and analyzed in the simplistic language of supply and demand. What is called for is a little humility, given that we cannot be certain that e-sports has any viable future, and most of all respect for those in Korea who have made getting thus far, incredibly, a reality.
It certainly isnt only StarCraft - the reason why this specific game got you, and you are following its scene closely is because you are interested specifically about it. KeSPA is not an organization taking care of StarCraft only - till 2007 there were officially more than 400 players with progamer status in more that 20 games - all recognized by KeSPA. I completely understand your opinion about the topic, its the most general one anyways. But what makes StarCraft so special, is that the "game" as entertainment media was taken out of its predefined economical purpose - to be sold to customers who are playing games, and evolved to something else - a completely new marketing niche, which generates millions of dollars profit per year from advertising in the public media.
The explanations for that may be a whole set of things - as you said cultural difference and again everything that goes with the general opinion, which I perfectly know. But what we have right now ist a cultural phenomenon - its money. Money that Blizzard have interest in, obviously. Money, that in korea at least have or had enormous potential for growth and public recognition. This exactly is esports. In your opinion that StarCraft is a very popular game, which evolved in korea because of good infrastructure, you are completely ignoring the simple monetary influence that "game" has.
Playing StarCraft in Korea is a business, Mr. Beale
The question is, who is the policy maker, who decides where StarCraft, the money machine must go. If GOM and Blizzard can monopolize the broadcasting rights, and indeed eventually kill StarCraft Broodwar, one must wonder how a 10 years old scene could be so fragile..
I just get the feeling you dont understand the reason behind the OP, did you actually read it? Its just like we are talking about two completely different things, but in some way you think your statements are objecting mine.
My intentions were indeed to prove a discussion, but not that people just reinforce all the cultural phenomenon cliches about the StarCraft scene and I dont see how what I've said in the OP is in a conflict with your posts
the only thing i'd agree with this article is the fickleness of fans in general.
but the rest is pretty biased against Kespa and even disrespectful to all the effort they've put in and what they've accomplished for esports worldwide.
With the raging match-fixing scandal, fundamental flaws in the system, that KeSPA represents, were exposed
- 10 years on, to say it has fundamental flaws because of the match fixing scandal is wrong. the only fundamental flaw is in the ethics of the guilty. every system can be abused, are you saying Blizzard - anyone for that fac -, can create a system where match fixing cannot/will not happen?
this biased and unreasonable statement works against your article and sets the tone for the remainder.
You insult the hard work of everyone involved in BW korea esports. blizzard would not have done anything of the like, they didnt even have the vision of how big BW could/would get. they never aimed to make it as big as it is now.
you forget 1 very important fact. without Kespa all these years, what would SC:BW be? no matter how flawed they are, they did a job that blizzard didnt want to do.
Are you criticizing korean esports because it does things by trial & error method? Trial and error is how esports was born and trial and error is the way it will grow... because it is something completely new, you don't have a guidebook how to run an esports scene.
I don't understand your main message. Is there one?
I do not see why we insist on dwelling on one 'side' over another. It does not matter what Blizzard wants, and it does not matter what Kespa wants. What matters for Team Liquid and for the entire progaming community is the result that is best for the progamers. So when people say that progaming cannot survive without Blizzard, or without Kespa, or without Korea, I have to cringe. That may have been true in the past, but this is not the past. What built the Starcraft scene was none of the corporations involved but the gamers, the ones who spent their lives playing a video game (yes, a video game! 'only' a video game!). Was Blizzard or Kespa sponsoring the pc bangs and the starcraft nerds? Were they telling Boxer to say 'screw it, I'm going to do a fucking nuke rush, because that's how I roll'? It seems as if the Starcraft progaming community has gotten very good at doing nothing. You think that the maps aren't good enough? Make better ones. You think that there's a cultural barrier against the acceptance of E-sports in the West? Fix it. Get people interested. Even if they get things wrong, even if HD switches the names of the players, even if Husky says 'zergings', that's what they've tried to do; they've done more to support E-sports than 99% of us here, and yet they're dismissed as pandering to casuals (Blizzard, by the way, has always pandered to casuals). It doesn't matter if all Blizzard and Kespa care about is profit. Let them do their negotiations, their backroom dealings, their evil cackles as they smoke a Havana cigar in a comfy rotating chair. It is clear that Brood War and Starcraft 2 both have incredible potential as international E-sports. Do you want to make it happen? Then forget about Korea, and forget about the companies; do something. Take it into your own hands, and if you can't (I know I'm not), then support those who will. The next time a big Western tournament comes up, I will be advertising it as far as I can.
[/quote] BW has already reached its peak and had its time, there's no way BW would've ever become anything bigger. It's about time we move on to a game that can help esports become a lot bigger and not just in Korea.[/QUOTE]
Really? Time to move on?
I love BW.
Same goes with Counter Strike 1.6 and Super Smash Brothers Melee. Even when theres CS:Source and Super Smash Brothers Brawl, i still stayed with the classics, Where it all started.
How can we really help SC2 when we cant even play against other foreigners or have LAN support at a HUGE ESPORT EVENT such as WCG, MLG, ETC ETC.
I agree with you... what people seem to not understand by your analysis of "deeper understanding" is that it means that you are willing to not take for granted any weapon in your arsenal. As in that first game, a Dark Archon used a damn mind control to help win the game. Efficiency is considered more important now than is the awesome discovery of strategies. Winning is all that matters, and that can be abused to make a profit. Anybody who says Starcraft 2 will b more capable of promoting this, I doubt it. It seemed to have been developed with a pure rason for every unit, crafted by looking at Starcraft:BW and then trying to make it more of a sport as opposed to a game. Starcraft:BW wasn't designed as a sport, it was a game. What made it a sport was the fun of discovering things that hadn't been known. It is a natural phenomenon in all sports, thus, to become mechanical as they mature. It isn't mature to be at that stage immediately though. To begin as any long lasting sport is now with a somewhat defined idea of what always seems to work seems to not make a sport, it seems like a job. It seems like something you have to do. What a game needs to be is something that you can do. While fans definitely have pushed towards perfecting skill, skill has been supplemented with perfection of strategy, the idea that units like the scout are a waste. What Blizzard seems to want to do is make everything have a purpose. What makes a great game is not really understanding what is the best way of using a unit. To not know that stacking mutas can be achieved with a burrowed zergling, or stop lurkers with an overlord, or what ever little quirks that have been discovered. Sure people say these things will develop as SC2 matures, but it doesn't help that people already expect these things to exist. If in the end none of these little things that plagued the old SC:BW to make an amazing experience turn up, what happens? Is the game fun anymore? Can you wow your friends with a glitch that people can say is fair because it evens the battlefield? In th end, we don't know. All we can say though, is that what made Starcraft:BW amazing was these things. and so far, nthing of the like has been discovered in SC 2.
the top players of today have a deep understanding of the game as well. To say they dont is asinine. You dont get to the pinnacle without being excellent at your craft. When skill level is lower there is more room for creativity which is why it can appear that older players were more creative.
On June 03 2010 21:11 disciple wrote: *snip* "Honestly, nowadays fans are leaving. When the time was good we should have pulled more corporations, embraced the existing fans, and attracted new fans. Even looking at ProLeague now, things are awkward for players. It's a feeling of not perfectly modeling it as a sports. It's the positioning of a half of sports and a half of entertainment. "
Who caused that weird image of esports? KeSPa and the broadcasters
Weren't Boxer, as well as quite a few of the other olds, promoting fanservice/showy play for fans? I swear I remember hearing or reading a few interviews along this line, and it get's pretty obvious too like how he always gets a nuke whenever he plays Yellow even when he knows he lost xD
On June 04 2010 12:47 bovi wrote: the only thing i'd agree with this article is the fickleness of fans in general.
but the rest is pretty biased against Kespa and even disrespectful to all the effort they've put in and what they've accomplished for esports worldwide.
With the raging match-fixing scandal, fundamental flaws in the system, that KeSPA represents, were exposed
- 10 years on, to say it has fundamental flaws because of the match fixing scandal is wrong. the only fundamental flaw is in the ethics of the guilty. every system can be abused, are you saying Blizzard - anyone for that fac -, can create a system where match fixing cannot/will not happen?
this biased and unreasonable statement works against your article and sets the tone for the remainder.
You insult the hard work of everyone involved in BW korea esports. blizzard would not have done anything of the like, they didnt even have the vision of how big BW could/would get. they never aimed to make it as big as it is now.
you forget 1 very important fact. without Kespa all these years, what would SC:BW be? no matter how flawed they are, they did a job that blizzard didnt want to do.
Something to remember indeed.
the match fixing scandal is so important because it provoked questions about the employer-employee relationship between the players, the teams and the sponsors. Is being a progamer a real profession? What kind of contracts all these young kids are signing, what are their rights if they have any ? Its KeSPA's job to represent and defend the interests of the players, if you want esports to be more respected and the kids involved in it as players to have better conditions in their job, you must have clear rules, defined by a labor contract.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the parties involved in the organization of esports, but to gain the public respect, to achieve recognition, the scene must be run professionally and details as labor contracts should not be overseen for years. If being a progamer is a profession, it should be treated like a profession. Thats the whole point of my post, starcraft underwent a really difficult metamorphosis from a game to a sport, with a lot monetary interest involved in it, but some aspects of the scene remain naive and premature.
Anything 1v1 is particularly vulnerable to match fixing, i don't see how KeSPA can be blamed for this. KeSPA cannot stop individuals throwing games and KeSPA cannot stop illegal gambling sites.
that vod is pretty funny, but game1 is the opposite is polar opposite to current sc2. in that game it was constant harrass with reaver/tank drop. but in sc2 its sit and wait for big battle
progaming is so small, most people in korea may have heard of the companies that sponsor the teams, but definitely not the teams themselves. the only thing i'm happy that sc2 is doing is bringing in thousands of people into the community, regardless of their immaturity.
On June 03 2010 19:47 J1.au wrote: Flash and Jaedong have a "deeper" understanding of Brood War than any "old-school" progamer ever had. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
The old-school pros pioneered the strats they use, men like BoxeR are legends and they did it all b4 they had salaries for playing a game. So respect should be given for those whom set the path for players like Flash and Jaedong.
No question they are elites, but on the same token i wouldnt say they have a deeper understanding as so much as they have the same comprehension of the game. Until they do something that no1 has ever seen before, you can't diss the "old-school" pros man. IMHO :3
On June 03 2010 19:47 J1.au wrote: Flash and Jaedong have a "deeper" understanding of Brood War than any "old-school" progamer ever had. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
The old-school pros pioneered the strats they use, men like BoxeR are legends and they did it all b4 they had salaries for playing a game.
Dude, people are getting paid to play starcraft in Korea since end 1998....
There should be a Pro gaming history thread that you have to read before registering here.
Lol even Samjjang or freemura had already badass salaries in 99 :D
After reading several posts here I feel like I have to comment. KeSPA, OGN, and MBC do the job right, they produce high entertainement games and overall they run everything VERY smoothly. Concerning the OP, KeSPA has TOTAL control of eSports and yes it had taken some blows but it's very minor, as someone who has been to Korea not too long ago, the few people I have seen, they have no intention to rebel against the way the StarCraft scene is being run.
I do want to say that to create a eSport of a quarter of the magnitude as in Korea or larger is impossible in Europe or the western world because video games are always looked down by too many people. Nobody will ever laugh or say something negative if you play soccer alot for example, but if you say "I played World of Warcraft for 10 hours yesterday".... You are likely going to get a reaction like wow, get a life etc, I don't know about you guys but some people laugh that I follow a video game like that.
As for SC2 in Korea, it has many ways it can go. First I do want to say that SC2 is terrible, but several of my friends that play WOW had the beta and they REALLY liked B.net 2.0 and the achievements and stuff and just the flashy graphics in general. Many people say SC:BW is lame because they look at the graphics, but once they understand the game depth it's quite extrodenary, but not many people in SC1 reached that level because they got bored and quit the game or just ended up playing UMS. In my opinion it will be able to attract a bigger audience that SC1 because for the very casual player the game looks AMAZING.
I was totally against Blizzard and how SC2 was turning out, but honestly they know what they are doing on the casual level no doubt, on the higher level in my opinion they will get it right since all the staff there are making 60k+ a year so I don't think they are that lost in it. I also do want to mention negotiations, now first there needs to be a understanding of how small the SC:BW scene is in reality, especially the foreign one. SC1 has a (hardcore) fanbase outside of Korea and China of about 30 thousand people spread across the Globe. For Korea it is a fanbase of about 40% of the male highschool and some college population.
Lastly about skill level and game understanding of players. When there is a lower level gamer base then doing something creative is much easier, and people like Boxer had that kind of thinking. What can I do that my opponent will be confused etc. But now the A class players are prepared for just about everything, they know everything that is possible and play by those, overall they are not as creative, usually it's if my opponent does this I have to do this and then if he does this I do this. And every so often they throw in something interesting. That's how we might think it's done anyhow, but actually the creativity now comes from the smaller less noticed things. Usually predicting where they will move their army and use hold lurkers there, doing some flank or moving in at that exact time by thinking that it is when they will be moving out. And for Flash's, is he a robot, no?... He's creative, have you seen his latest TvT's where he makes like only vultures, it totally depends if he can do enough damage with the mines. Robots are predictable and players can only get so far if tehy have perfect macro and micro but no creativity.
[EDIT] Lastly I do really want to mention salaries. The 30th best player in StarCraft makes about 20k a year, Flash makes 150million WON which is about 85k if I'm not mistaken. Do note that most of these players don't go to university or any post secondary education and the average 3 to 4 year career wont make them too much money, then they don't have many places to go. Parents look down at you if you're trying to become a progamer, and those players are also lower on the Social level. It's just the nerds that have trouble getting friends, they play when they have nothing to do.
I would really like to see other point of views so if you have any points against mine please do share.
On June 03 2010 19:47 J1.au wrote: Flash and Jaedong have a "deeper" understanding of Brood War than any "old-school" progamer ever had. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
The old-school pros pioneered the strats they use, men like BoxeR are legends and they did it all b4 they had salaries for playing a game. So respect should be given for those whom set the path for players like Flash and Jaedong.
No question they are elites, but on the same token i wouldnt say they have a deeper understanding as so much as they have the same comprehension of the game. Until they do something that no1 has ever seen before, you can't diss the "old-school" pros man. IMHO :3
If you actually know anything about Starcraft, you'd know how important Flash is to modern terran play, especially TvP (that Flash build isn't really important since its basically Oov's build).
There is no doubt he he up there with the all time greats. Jaedong less so but basically popularised the build that made all lower level protoss players worthless against zerg.
On June 05 2010 01:02 Skillz_Man wrote: [EDIT] Lastly I do really want to mention salaries. The 30th best player in StarCraft makes about 20k a year, Flash makes 150million WON which is about 85k if I'm not mistaken. Do note that most of these players don't go to university or any post secondary education and the average 3 to 4 year career wont make them too much money, then they don't have many places to go. Parents look down at you if you're trying to become a progamer, and those players are also lower on the Social level. It's just the nerds that have trouble getting friends, they play when they have nothing to do.
I would really like to see other point of views so if you have any points against mine please do share.
Flash earns 250-300k $ and more a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129095 Jaedong probably around the same. Flash can make enough in 3-4 years to never work again in his life. But yea this only applies to the superstar players.
On June 03 2010 23:07 Zona wrote: About the only thing I agree with you is the idea that esports is fragile.
You place the blame on Kespa for many problems in the system without crediting how they've evolved to make the scene more professional. Actually, if you examine the history of many professional sports, you will see that in their infancy they all had many awful practices. For example, early on in professional baseball, you had blatant racism, you also had teams controlling the players, you had betting on games, as well as a system that didn't have the budget to even buy new baseballs when they were needed. If you look at many other sports their early history is just as ugly to look at. While it's true it would be nice if Kespa treated players better, other sports were the same way in their early days, and Kespa is developing the same way many other sports authorities have developed.
I also don't see why you associate MBC's struggles to secure a sponsor for the MSL to the broadcasters' relationship with Kespa. What does Kespa have to do with MBC's difficulties in attracting someone to agree to pay up some money in return for branding and ads? Unless you're implying somehow that Kespa represents all possible sponsors or that Kespa somehow influenced potential sponsors to not participate in sponsoring the MSL?
New fans not remembering the exploits of the old stars is pretty normal. Here many new fans don't know of anyone except maybe Boxer. What about young basketball fans? Do they know much more than Jordan? It's not unexpected that a fan doesn't have the same emotional attachment to achievements made during times when they did not watch the sport.
I also disagree that top players are succeeding by replicating "proven" optimal playing styles. Actually, given that the mechanical ability of players overall have risen dramatically (for some sort of evidence of this, you can consider the high APM of many players), what sets successful players apart is their decision-making. If there WERE proven optimal strategies, then players who could execute such strategies the best would be the winners, but the players who are strongest mechanically aren't necessarily the winners. Now if you claim that only certain players know of the "proven" optimal strategies, then they aren't truly "proven" universally, and instead are an advantage for those players who have created or adopted those styles.
I also entirely disagree with the idea that Blizzard is viewing SC2/BW as an esport first, having "stopped being simply a game". Despite what comes out of their PR mouthpieces, they are investing precious few resources in pushing SC2 (or BW) as an esport. You judge someone's intentions by their actions, not their words - and Blizzard's actions show that the esport aspect of SC2 or BW is far from being their top priority.
Quoted for truth. The reason why gaming cannot become a true sport is the shelf life of games. Sports stars can rely on their trade for their entire lifetime, pro-gamers can only use their skills until the next game comes out. Playing sports comes with great side effects like good health, social interaction etc. Playing games leave you with nothing.
Actually professional sport is very unhealthy. You will see many guys with knee problems and other bad injuries in their 30s. But yup i agree with your argument about the short lifespan of computer games in general.
I certainly agree... The difference between video games and real sports is the fact that real sports tend to change very little from year to year and their evolution occurs over decades. Video games on the other hand, change drastically from year to year and tend to have a much shorter life cycle. While you can certainly compare the development of the eSports scene to the development of the MLB in the early years, Baseball has a sense of permanance that no video game ever will (at least for the forseeable future).
Because of this, it's really silly for anybody in the industry to really think of any true "long-term" plan for eSports because there's no telling if the game will still be popular 3 years down the road or if something else will come along to take its place, requiring you to start from square 1 again in terms of finding out how to broadcast it and how to run events for it. Sure, Brood War lasted for over a decade being played competitively, but let's all be sensible enough to admit that its longevity is really just a freak accident. It's an outlier in a realm where games will often be hardpressed to go past 5 years of serious competitive play and for the most part, its success was centered in a specific region of the world where the conditions were just right to foster its growth. I personally do not hold the belief that this success could be emulated at will and until it can, video games will always be short-term endeavors with uncertain expiration dates and along with them, the careers of their star players.
On June 05 2010 02:55 wiesel wrote: Actually professional sport is very unhealthy. You will see many guys with knee problems and other bad injuries in their 30s. But yup i agree with your argument about the short lifespan of computer games in general.
But casually playing sports is generally better for your social and physical health than playing games, which is why games won't become as accepted as real sports are, at least not the foreseeable future.
But yeah, there's almost no chance of esports going as mainstream as sports.
On June 05 2010 03:44 XFire wrote: It's a great and insightful article, but you should work on your comma use. The content was great, but the read was a mentally bumpy ride.
Good article. ^^
Thank you for your feedback ^_^ I've learned english by watching cartoons and playing computer games, and it kind of shows, but I'm doing my best to improve it keke
please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist.
without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers.
without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play.
On June 05 2010 01:02 Skillz_Man wrote: [EDIT] Lastly I do really want to mention salaries. The 30th best player in StarCraft makes about 20k a year, Flash makes 150million WON which is about 85k if I'm not mistaken. Do note that most of these players don't go to university or any post secondary education and the average 3 to 4 year career wont make them too much money, then they don't have many places to go. Parents look down at you if you're trying to become a progamer, and those players are also lower on the Social level. It's just the nerds that have trouble getting friends, they play when they have nothing to do.
I would really like to see other point of views so if you have any points against mine please do share.
Flash earns 250-300k $ and more a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129095 Jaedong probably around the same. Flash can make enough in 3-4 years to never work again in his life. But yea this only applies to the superstar players.
Hmm, we'll as far as I'm aware Jaedong was making low money (under 100m won) in the FA period, which if 300m is 250k so thats $85k or less I would have thought that the best players wouldn't be getting much more. Regarding that I had no idea Flash was making so much money. Nada was the highest earning progamer; a 3 year plan for $700. But besides Flash I can guarantee nobody makes over 200mil won, Calm makes 150mil and Kal makes 120m but those are the highest that were publicly released.
EDIT: People are looking for insigtful opinions in this thread so don't be compaining about comma use or just say Blizzard/KeSPA is bad without evidence.
On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote: Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments.
In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote: Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments.
In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
I really don't understand why people say starcraft isnt a sport in a traditional sense, isn't korea proof of this?
On June 05 2010 05:18 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist.
without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers.
without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play.
This is delusional thinking. If Nada and Boxer weren't there, someone else would have taken their place. Now, I can't guarantee that the Terran metagame would have developed as fast, but you can't guarantee that it wouldn't have developed at all. For all we know, someone even better and more creative than Boxer could have come out if Boxer hadn't beaten him to the punch. Your first statement about Nada makes no sense; Flash would still have his macro. And the Boxer statement is even worse; it's not like Boxer was the only capable of inventing/standardizing mech and dropship play, it's just that he was the first (and he did it with style), which is why we respect him so much. I don't deny the "sweat and tears" that the older gamers put in, but honestly, I think if Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were to switch roles with Boxer, Yellow, etc. (in terms of when they were born and began to game hardcore), they would have put in the EXACT SAME amount of effort needed to create the sports scene. But like I said, it just so happened that the older gamers did what they did first, and all the respect goes to them for it.
On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote: Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments.
In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
On June 05 2010 05:18 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist.
without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers.
without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play.
Lol you think Boxer and Nada were the sole competitive Terran players back then ?
You had about a dozen of other terran players of the exact same skill caliber back then, if not better.
Boxer didn't invent everything, actually, it's more to the opposite, he was very good at using right strategies, also, he was very good at handling live pressure.
I knew players much better than boxer back then in practice.
Boxer didn't win every tourney he entered. You guys only account TV leagues.
Back then in Korea, you had lan tournaments every week where all the pros would participate.
From the top of my head you had :
Iloveu, cezanne, oddyssay, silent control, CHRH, saint eagle etc etc and the list goes on.
Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies.
On June 10 2010 16:44 Boonbag wrote: Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies.
No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly.
On June 10 2010 16:44 Boonbag wrote: Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies.
No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly.
You are clueless. This is so wrong and false. If someone builded pro gaming singlehandedly it would be OGN.
People have to stop crediting boxer for all this. Boxer is a popular SC champion, if not the most popular that's it. He is a figure of Korean Pro gaming circuit. It's just like you would credit Pele for creating everything football is today. Or just like you would say without Michael Jordan there wouldn't be NBA.
Unaware posters are getting on my nerves.
Why can't you see things in a little less simplistic fashion ?
There's a shit ton of people that did even more than boxer for the pro gaming scene to exist.
On June 10 2010 16:44 Boonbag wrote: Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies.
No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly.
You are clueless. This is so wrong and false. If someone builded pro gaming singlehandedly it would be OGN.
People have to stop crediting boxer for all this. Boxer is a popular SC champion, if not the most popular. He is a figure of Korean Pro gaming circuit. It's just like you would credit Pele for creating everything football is today. Or just like you would say without Michael Jordan there wouldn't be NBA.
Unaware posters are getting on my nerves.
Why can't you see things in a little less simplistic fashion ?
There's a shit ton of people that did even more than boxer for the pro gaming scene to exist.
but, without boxer, there wouldn't have been those followers that may have contributed moar.
On June 10 2010 16:44 Boonbag wrote: Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies.
No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly.
You are clueless. This is so wrong and false. If someone builded pro gaming singlehandedly it would be OGN.
People have to stop crediting boxer for all this. Boxer is a popular SC champion, if not the most popular. He is a figure of Korean Pro gaming circuit. It's just like you would credit Pele for creating everything football is today. Or just like you would say without Michael Jordan there wouldn't be NBA.
Unaware posters are getting on my nerves.
Why can't you see things in a little less simplistic fashion ?
There's a shit ton of people that did even more than boxer for the pro gaming scene to exist.
but, without boxer, there wouldn't have been those followers that may have contributed moar.
But Boxer wasn't some kind of public figure for pro gaming until very late. Pro gaming was alredy running and established mostly.
What followers are you talking about ?
Members of his daum café ? Fans ?
Followers contributing ? You mean Tv people making leagues ? Sponsors ?
There is no "contribution" just players and PDs and workers, in one industry. Boxer didn't make those come to work.
I mean what kind of misconceptions are you running on all this ?*
Samjjang and Grrrr... were actually the ones making Pro gaming first popular as figures.
Many of these E-sports fall singlehandedly to the mistakes marked by their sponsors and or coordinators. If there is no audience, there is no E-sport. Having no advertising, and lack of audience support will only make sponsors more fearful to invest into something they will not get back in return.
Games were created for the sole enjoyment of the user, and now it has become a spectator sport. These games weren't designed to last very long, and the only thing that differentiates a real sport from an E-sport is that E-sports have a lifespan. How long has Boxing been alive for? Probably a good 150+ years. What's the longest running E-sport you know of? Most likely Starcraft, and that is little over a decade.
They (Blizzard & KeSPA) need to take responsibility of this problem fast. Either they fix their quarrels or the market will take their money elsewhere. Granted if Blizzard goes through with their injuctions on KeSPA after August, where will the audience go? I highly doubt they'll be on GomTV watching SC2, and thats because fans remain loyal. If they showed a joined agreement, a healthy relationship with one another I believe that with Blizzard's deep pockets they can take SC2 into new heights.
It's kind of strange to see posters with fairly new join dates arguing with Boonbag about the early days of progaming. Apparently this man was a progamer himself in said early days.
As for the article I have to say that the section about "short term memories of the fans" is kind of a strawman argument. Where are these fans who don't respect the older school players?
Also, the bit about "old school players having the deepest understanding of the game" is a pretty unfounded statement. What exactly is a deep understanding of the game? And how have old school players shown to have more of it? It seems to that in recent times Flash has shown the deepest understanding of the game by far.
On July 02 2010 00:09 Rus_Brain wrote: Translated at reps.ru
I like the bits you added as well
t's kind of strange to see posters with fairly new join dates arguing with Boonbag about the early days of progaming. Apparently this man was a progamer himself in said early days.
Boonbags statements are ridiculous, for example "starcraft is not a marketing product" and so on. The fact that he was in Korea a decade ago doesn't mean he is speaking the ultimate truth about the things going on there. Indeed his opinion is quite strong, or even stubborn (may I say), but in all his posts in this thread, as well in countless threads in TL on the same topic, he is providing no evidence for his statements and in most of the cases is just completely negative in the discussion.
There are a lot of aspects in the professional starcraft scene that are subject of common understanding about PR, economy and policy. As far as Boonbags posting is concerned, I may say he has no knowledge in any of those areas, which for me, makes his posts on the topic not credible
Although it's not sourced in any way really, boon bag has a whole bunch of progame stories in his blog, and after reading them as true, it's pretty clear that there was at least 1 generation gamers before boxer that did equally as important work, and it seems like Grrr.. 's popularity was pretty massive.
t's kind of strange to see posters with fairly new join dates arguing with Boonbag about the early days of progaming. Apparently this man was a progamer himself in said early days.
Boonbags statements are ridiculous, for example "starcraft is not a marketing product" and so on. The fact that he was in Korea a decade ago doesn't mean he is speaking the ultimate truth about the things going on there. Indeed his opinion is quite strong, or even stubborn (may I say), but in all his posts in this thread, as well in countless threads in TL on the same topic, he is providing no evidence for his statements and in most of the cases is just completely negative in the discussion.
There are a lot of aspects in the professional starcraft scene that are subject of common understanding about PR, economy and policy. As far as Boonbags posting is concerned, I may say he has no knowledge in any of those areas, which for me, makes his posts on the topic not credible
I'll admit I didn't read most of the discussion, just the last page. He probably did make a lot of ridiculous statements, but for some topics his firsthand experience certainly is relevant.
On June 01 2010 05:51 disciple wrote: The problem is that fans tend to completely disregard the careers and the contributions of the "old-school" players, by comparing their absolute skill to the progamers of today. StarCraft is not a sport of absolute skill, being the complex game that it is, the changes in the metagame, as well as deeper and more common knowledge of the build order theory, caused a constant evolution of the level of play. If you line up Capablanca in his best days against some mid-tear 2600ish GM of today, the great José Raúl is gonna get destroyed - he will see moves that he will barely understand, moves that the regular modern day Grand Master just memorizes from the computer analysis. Because of the replays, the same thing happened with StarCraft, but with chess the process took more than 80 years.
That being said, the last generation of progamers just replicate in their playing style whats proven by the theory to be the best. They are completely robotic, and it should come as no surprise that the players with the deepest understanding about the game are from the old-school. Nothing from what I've said in the last two paragraph is new, but my point is that the short-term memory of fans, made us forget what made SC:BW so special, and what actually caused the being of esports. If I have to object the statement from the latest OSL article, I would say yet again, that EffOrt created no legacy - he is the legacy himself. As a player he is a product 10 years long refinement,and as fans who are prizing the amazing skills of Jaedong and Flash, we should never forget the godfathers, all the 1.00 players that pioneered the professional gaming.]
Capablanca lose? Hah!
Modern players are no more robotic than older ones; the strategies and mechanical levels just have changed. The major innovations have always been made by just a few each generation while the vast majority simply follow the accepted trends. The modern era is hardly different than any other except in the sheer quantity of games played.
Flash alone in the past 3 years has innovated just as much if not more than Boxer had in 6-7 years. Just because you can't see the creativity doesn't mean it isn't there.
On July 02 2010 00:09 Rus_Brain wrote: Translated at reps.ru
I like the bits you added as well
t's kind of strange to see posters with fairly new join dates arguing with Boonbag about the early days of progaming. Apparently this man was a progamer himself in said early days.
Boonbags statements are ridiculous, for example "starcraft is not a marketing product" and so on. The fact that he was in Korea a decade ago doesn't mean he is speaking the ultimate truth about the things going on there. Indeed his opinion is quite strong, or even stubborn (may I say), but in all his posts in this thread, as well in countless threads in TL on the same topic, he is providing no evidence for his statements and in most of the cases is just completely negative in the discussion.
There are a lot of aspects in the professional starcraft scene that are subject of common understanding about PR, economy and policy. As far as Boonbags posting is concerned, I may say he has no knowledge in any of those areas, which for me, makes his posts on the topic not credible
I'll admit I didn't read most of the discussion, just the last page. He probably did make a lot of ridiculous statements, but for some topics his firsthand experience certainly is relevant.
Any thoughts on the other part of my post?
Its hard to make a judgement of Flash "understanding" about the game, indeed if you are as good as him, you must be already pretty well enlightened the best players always have "the extra something" that makes the difference. But as in all sports, the role of the coaches shell not be overseen. If you just compare their skill, fantasy is obviously way better than oov, but there is a lot more to it. Being "old-school" gamer, outside from the actual process of competitive gaming, but with significant experience as a player, changes the way one sees the game. The coaches, in most of the cases old-school gamers, do a great job in studying the game, making ESPORTS science, which the members of the their team use as given. Ofc, the young kids are playing a huge part in the process as well.
On June 01 2010 05:51 disciple wrote: The problem is that fans tend to completely disregard the careers and the contributions of the "old-school" players, by comparing their absolute skill to the progamers of today. StarCraft is not a sport of absolute skill, being the complex game that it is, the changes in the metagame, as well as deeper and more common knowledge of the build order theory, caused a constant evolution of the level of play. If you line up Capablanca in his best days against some mid-tear 2600ish GM of today, the great José Raúl is gonna get destroyed - he will see moves that he will barely understand, moves that the regular modern day Grand Master just memorizes from the computer analysis. Because of the replays, the same thing happened with StarCraft, but with chess the process took more than 80 years.
That being said, the last generation of progamers just replicate in their playing style whats proven by the theory to be the best. They are completely robotic, and it should come as no surprise that the players with the deepest understanding about the game are from the old-school. Nothing from what I've said in the last two paragraph is new, but my point is that the short-term memory of fans, made us forget what made SC:BW so special, and what actually caused the being of esports. If I have to object the statement from the latest OSL article, I would say yet again, that EffOrt created no legacy - he is the legacy himself. As a player he is a product 10 years long refinement,and as fans who are prizing the amazing skills of Jaedong and Flash, we should never forget the godfathers, all the 1.00 players that pioneered the professional gaming.]
Capablanca lose? Hah!
Modern players are no more robotic than older ones; the strategies and mechanical levels just have changed. The major innovations have always been made by just a few each generation while the vast majority simply follow the accepted trends. The modern era is hardly different than any other except in the sheer quantity of games played.
Flash alone in the past 3 years has innovated just as much if not more than Boxer had in 6-7 years. Just because you can't see the creativity doesn't mean it isn't there.
I agree with you entirely about the first part. But why are guys giving Flash as example every single time. He indeed contributed a lot, but the point of my comparison was to put the majority of todays players, to the average player from 7-8 or more years ago. Creativity was playing a huge part of the game back then, because that was the way to play Starcraft.
I know this is improbable, but i hope BW and SC2 can have different pro scenes with both still surviving. But it seems Blizzard is not going to let it happen
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/33fe061.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/2vb7djc.jpg)
The organization that was assembled "to run" esports in Korea, to set the regulations and define rules was not mature enough to do its job. The constant misunderstanding between KeSPA, the broadcaster companies and the fans was in the end used by Blizzard to their greatest benefit. It became clear that KeSPA doesn't have the public respect and the partners to hold things in a tight grip. Furthermore KeSPA's influence on the happening in the scene became extremely questionable. With the raging match-fixing scandal, fundamental flaws in the system, that KeSPA represents, were exposed. The lack of rules regarding the relationship between the teams and the sponsors with the players is obvious. It certainly isn't the main reason for the whole scandal, but it compromised KeSPA in its main goal- to protect the most valuable and vulnerable part of the esports - the players. KeSPA's effort to establish strict rules, just caused some drama, confusion and fun within the community (remember the "ppp" and "a" ?) . But the big failure of KeSPA in this case is actually the image the organization built for itself in the eyes of the fans. By acting inadequate and incompetent in a couple of key moments, KeSPA lost the support of the fans. ![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/2w65cuw.jpg)
For 10 years, the development of the professional StarCraft scene in Korea was driven by tryouts and failures. The structure of the two individual leagues, as well as the Proleague was constantly changed, and every years cycle consisted of crowning the champion and searching a sponsor for the next season. Although the leagues got the interest of constant partners like Shinhan Bank and Ever, the two broadcasting companies were not able to cooperate with each other and with KeSPA for a long period of time, which disturbed the healthy growth of professional StarCraft. The latest prove for that was MBC's struggle to find a sponsor for the MSL. And while MBC tend to fail more than OGN by hosting the tournaments, the OSL organizers showed many times in the past, they have no idea where esports must go. Its a well known fact, that historically, most of the dominant players were able to perform more consistently in the MSL, but failed to defend their championship in the OSL. Kim Carrier's curse is a stupid excuse - the main reason was that OGN changed the format of the tournament almost every season. The only slight effort in some long term thinking was the introduction of the Golden Mouse and shortly after the Golden Badge. Lets not forget the Golden Mouse was originally designed to just be the highlight of Boxers career, but as we all know, he never won that 3rd OSL. Summed up, everything only shows that people involved in esports just let things happen, instead of having a long term plan about the development of the scene. StarCraft 2 totally caught the broadcaster companies with their pants down.![[image loading]](http://i50.tinypic.com/534xeo.jpg)
Indeed for 10 years, the scene underwent a really fast paced evolution, but the fans of StarCraft are changing their mindset with it as well. The regular spectators of nowadays, which are enjoying the last years of professional SC:BW are going to have many similarities with the people who are going to follow StarCraft 2 in the years to come. But initially, the Broodwar scene accumulated a lot of spectators for a very different reason, a reason that wont exist when SC2 comes out - it was simply a very fun game, the all seriousness of being an esport wasn't even existing by that time. For sure the level of play was much below today's standards, but there was plenty of room for creativity, which made the whole progress of each game more or less unpredictable. Of course, SC2 being a completely different game, wont have the same theory database and there will be indeed some space for creativity, but the approach to the game and its technical features will speed up the evolution of the metagame, compared to SC:BW, dramatically. Having that said, from day one SC2 will produce highly skilled players, which will be entirely different from the guys, who played in space suits 10 years ago. But with different type of players, we have different type of fans. The "values" of StarCraft have changed, with them the things the regular fan appreciates, as well. 
I like the bits you added as well
