EPTSomething to remember - Page 5
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 05 2010 05:18 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist. without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers. without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play. Lol you think Boxer and Nada were the sole competitive Terran players back then ? You had about a dozen of other terran players of the exact same skill caliber back then, if not better. Boxer didn't invent everything, actually, it's more to the opposite, he was very good at using right strategies, also, he was very good at handling live pressure. I knew players much better than boxer back then in practice. Boxer didn't win every tourney he entered. You guys only account TV leagues. Back then in Korea, you had lan tournaments every week where all the pros would participate. From the top of my head you had : Iloveu, cezanne, oddyssay, silent control, CHRH, saint eagle etc etc and the list goes on. Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies. | ||
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pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
On June 10 2010 16:44 Boonbag wrote: Boxer isn't some kind of messiah that just sat there alone on a rock and got all the terran strats revealed to him from the blue skies. No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 10 2010 16:52 pyr0ma5ta wrote: No, but he was the first, the best, the most clutch, and most importantly, the most charismatic. It's not easy being The Emperor. And no matter how much you dispute even those obviously true claims, you can't deny that he founded the progaming phenomenon, mostly singlehandedly. You are clueless. This is so wrong and false. If someone builded pro gaming singlehandedly it would be OGN. People have to stop crediting boxer for all this. Boxer is a popular SC champion, if not the most popular that's it. He is a figure of Korean Pro gaming circuit. It's just like you would credit Pele for creating everything football is today. Or just like you would say without Michael Jordan there wouldn't be NBA. Unaware posters are getting on my nerves. Why can't you see things in a little less simplistic fashion ? There's a shit ton of people that did even more than boxer for the pro gaming scene to exist. | ||
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SpartiK1S
United States145 Posts
On June 10 2010 16:54 Boonbag wrote: You are clueless. This is so wrong and false. If someone builded pro gaming singlehandedly it would be OGN. People have to stop crediting boxer for all this. Boxer is a popular SC champion, if not the most popular. He is a figure of Korean Pro gaming circuit. It's just like you would credit Pele for creating everything football is today. Or just like you would say without Michael Jordan there wouldn't be NBA. Unaware posters are getting on my nerves. Why can't you see things in a little less simplistic fashion ? There's a shit ton of people that did even more than boxer for the pro gaming scene to exist. but, without boxer, there wouldn't have been those followers that may have contributed moar. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 10 2010 17:03 SpartiK1S wrote: but, without boxer, there wouldn't have been those followers that may have contributed moar. But Boxer wasn't some kind of public figure for pro gaming until very late. Pro gaming was alredy running and established mostly. What followers are you talking about ? Members of his daum café ? Fans ? Followers contributing ? You mean Tv people making leagues ? Sponsors ? There is no "contribution" just players and PDs and workers, in one industry. Boxer didn't make those come to work. I mean what kind of misconceptions are you running on all this ?* Samjjang and Grrrr... were actually the ones making Pro gaming first popular as figures. | ||
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zZygote
Canada898 Posts
Games were created for the sole enjoyment of the user, and now it has become a spectator sport. These games weren't designed to last very long, and the only thing that differentiates a real sport from an E-sport is that E-sports have a lifespan. How long has Boxing been alive for? Probably a good 150+ years. What's the longest running E-sport you know of? Most likely Starcraft, and that is little over a decade. They (Blizzard & KeSPA) need to take responsibility of this problem fast. Either they fix their quarrels or the market will take their money elsewhere. Granted if Blizzard goes through with their injuctions on KeSPA after August, where will the audience go? I highly doubt they'll be on GomTV watching SC2, and thats because fans remain loyal. If they showed a joined agreement, a healthy relationship with one another I believe that with Blizzard's deep pockets they can take SC2 into new heights. | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1893 Posts
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
As for the article I have to say that the section about "short term memories of the fans" is kind of a strawman argument. Where are these fans who don't respect the older school players? Also, the bit about "old school players having the deepest understanding of the game" is a pretty unfounded statement. What exactly is a deep understanding of the game? And how have old school players shown to have more of it? It seems to that in recent times Flash has shown the deepest understanding of the game by far. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:09 Rus_Brain wrote: Translated at reps.ru  I like the bits you added as wellt's kind of strange to see posters with fairly new join dates arguing with Boonbag about the early days of progaming. Apparently this man was a progamer himself in said early days. Boonbags statements are ridiculous, for example "starcraft is not a marketing product" and so on. The fact that he was in Korea a decade ago doesn't mean he is speaking the ultimate truth about the things going on there. Indeed his opinion is quite strong, or even stubborn (may I say), but in all his posts in this thread, as well in countless threads in TL on the same topic, he is providing no evidence for his statements and in most of the cases is just completely negative in the discussion. There are a lot of aspects in the professional starcraft scene that are subject of common understanding about PR, economy and policy. As far as Boonbags posting is concerned, I may say he has no knowledge in any of those areas, which for me, makes his posts on the topic not credible | ||
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ella_guru
Canada1741 Posts
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:35 disciple wrote: I like the bits you added as wellBoonbags statements are ridiculous, for example "starcraft is not a marketing product" and so on. The fact that he was in Korea a decade ago doesn't mean he is speaking the ultimate truth about the things going on there. Indeed his opinion is quite strong, or even stubborn (may I say), but in all his posts in this thread, as well in countless threads in TL on the same topic, he is providing no evidence for his statements and in most of the cases is just completely negative in the discussion. There are a lot of aspects in the professional starcraft scene that are subject of common understanding about PR, economy and policy. As far as Boonbags posting is concerned, I may say he has no knowledge in any of those areas, which for me, makes his posts on the topic not credible I'll admit I didn't read most of the discussion, just the last page. He probably did make a lot of ridiculous statements, but for some topics his firsthand experience certainly is relevant. Any thoughts on the other part of my post? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On June 01 2010 05:51 disciple wrote: The problem is that fans tend to completely disregard the careers and the contributions of the "old-school" players, by comparing their absolute skill to the progamers of today. StarCraft is not a sport of absolute skill, being the complex game that it is, the changes in the metagame, as well as deeper and more common knowledge of the build order theory, caused a constant evolution of the level of play. If you line up Capablanca in his best days against some mid-tear 2600ish GM of today, the great José Raúl is gonna get destroyed - he will see moves that he will barely understand, moves that the regular modern day Grand Master just memorizes from the computer analysis. Because of the replays, the same thing happened with StarCraft, but with chess the process took more than 80 years. That being said, the last generation of progamers just replicate in their playing style whats proven by the theory to be the best. They are completely robotic, and it should come as no surprise that the players with the deepest understanding about the game are from the old-school. Nothing from what I've said in the last two paragraph is new, but my point is that the short-term memory of fans, made us forget what made SC:BW so special, and what actually caused the being of esports. If I have to object the statement from the latest OSL article, I would say yet again, that EffOrt created no legacy - he is the legacy himself. As a player he is a product 10 years long refinement,and as fans who are prizing the amazing skills of Jaedong and Flash, we should never forget the godfathers, all the 1.00 players that pioneered the professional gaming.] Capablanca lose? Hah! Modern players are no more robotic than older ones; the strategies and mechanical levels just have changed. The major innovations have always been made by just a few each generation while the vast majority simply follow the accepted trends. The modern era is hardly different than any other except in the sheer quantity of games played. Flash alone in the past 3 years has innovated just as much if not more than Boxer had in 6-7 years. Just because you can't see the creativity doesn't mean it isn't there. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:51 Gustav_Wind wrote: I'll admit I didn't read most of the discussion, just the last page. He probably did make a lot of ridiculous statements, but for some topics his firsthand experience certainly is relevant. Any thoughts on the other part of my post? Its hard to make a judgement of Flash "understanding" about the game, indeed if you are as good as him, you must be already pretty well enlightened the best players always have "the extra something" that makes the difference. But as in all sports, the role of the coaches shell not be overseen. If you just compare their skill, fantasy is obviously way better than oov, but there is a lot more to it. Being "old-school" gamer, outside from the actual process of competitive gaming, but with significant experience as a player, changes the way one sees the game. The coaches, in most of the cases old-school gamers, do a great job in studying the game, making ESPORTS science, which the members of the their team use as given. Ofc, the young kids are playing a huge part in the process as well.As for the other part, I suggest you read a news post from a year or so ago. It was about bandwagoning and provoked some extreme reactions http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=103979 | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:57 Ver wrote: Capablanca lose? Hah! Modern players are no more robotic than older ones; the strategies and mechanical levels just have changed. The major innovations have always been made by just a few each generation while the vast majority simply follow the accepted trends. The modern era is hardly different than any other except in the sheer quantity of games played. Flash alone in the past 3 years has innovated just as much if not more than Boxer had in 6-7 years. Just because you can't see the creativity doesn't mean it isn't there. I agree with you entirely about the first part. But why are guys giving Flash as example every single time. He indeed contributed a lot, but the point of my comparison was to put the majority of todays players, to the average player from 7-8 or more years ago. Creativity was playing a huge part of the game back then, because that was the way to play Starcraft. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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