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On June 05 2010 01:02 Skillz_Man wrote:
[EDIT] Lastly I do really want to mention salaries. The 30th best player in StarCraft makes about 20k a year, Flash makes 150million WON which is about 85k if I'm not mistaken. Do note that most of these players don't go to university or any post secondary education and the average 3 to 4 year career wont make them too much money, then they don't have many places to go. Parents look down at you if you're trying to become a progamer, and those players are also lower on the Social level. It's just the nerds that have trouble getting friends, they play when they have nothing to do.
I would really like to see other point of views so if you have any points against mine please do share.
Flash earns 250-300k $ and more a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129095
Jaedong probably around the same. Flash can make enough in 3-4 years to never work again in his life. But yea this only applies to the superstar players.
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On June 03 2010 23:07 Zona wrote:
About the only thing I agree with you is the idea that esports is fragile.
You place the blame on Kespa for many problems in the system without crediting how they've evolved to make the scene more professional. Actually, if you examine the history of many professional sports, you will see that in their infancy they all had many awful practices. For example, early on in professional baseball, you had blatant racism, you also had teams controlling the players, you had betting on games, as well as a system that didn't have the budget to even buy new baseballs when they were needed. If you look at many other sports their early history is just as ugly to look at. While it's true it would be nice if Kespa treated players better, other sports were the same way in their early days, and Kespa is developing the same way many other sports authorities have developed.
I also don't see why you associate MBC's struggles to secure a sponsor for the MSL to the broadcasters' relationship with Kespa. What does Kespa have to do with MBC's difficulties in attracting someone to agree to pay up some money in return for branding and ads? Unless you're implying somehow that Kespa represents all possible sponsors or that Kespa somehow influenced potential sponsors to not participate in sponsoring the MSL?
New fans not remembering the exploits of the old stars is pretty normal. Here many new fans don't know of anyone except maybe Boxer. What about young basketball fans? Do they know much more than Jordan? It's not unexpected that a fan doesn't have the same emotional attachment to achievements made during times when they did not watch the sport.
I also disagree that top players are succeeding by replicating "proven" optimal playing styles. Actually, given that the mechanical ability of players overall have risen dramatically (for some sort of evidence of this, you can consider the high APM of many players), what sets successful players apart is their decision-making. If there WERE proven optimal strategies, then players who could execute such strategies the best would be the winners, but the players who are strongest mechanically aren't necessarily the winners. Now if you claim that only certain players know of the "proven" optimal strategies, then they aren't truly "proven" universally, and instead are an advantage for those players who have created or adopted those styles.
I also entirely disagree with the idea that Blizzard is viewing SC2/BW as an esport first, having "stopped being simply a game". Despite what comes out of their PR mouthpieces, they are investing precious few resources in pushing SC2 (or BW) as an esport. You judge someone's intentions by their actions, not their words - and Blizzard's actions show that the esport aspect of SC2 or BW is far from being their top priority.
Quoted for truth. The reason why gaming cannot become a true sport is the shelf life of games. Sports stars can rely on their trade for their entire lifetime, pro-gamers can only use their skills until the next game comes out. Playing sports comes with great side effects like good health, social interaction etc. Playing games leave you with nothing.
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Actually professional sport is very unhealthy. You will see many guys with knee problems and other bad injuries in their 30s. But yup i agree with your argument about the short lifespan of computer games in general.
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I certainly agree... The difference between video games and real sports is the fact that real sports tend to change very little from year to year and their evolution occurs over decades. Video games on the other hand, change drastically from year to year and tend to have a much shorter life cycle. While you can certainly compare the development of the eSports scene to the development of the MLB in the early years, Baseball has a sense of permanance that no video game ever will (at least for the forseeable future).
Because of this, it's really silly for anybody in the industry to really think of any true "long-term" plan for eSports because there's no telling if the game will still be popular 3 years down the road or if something else will come along to take its place, requiring you to start from square 1 again in terms of finding out how to broadcast it and how to run events for it. Sure, Brood War lasted for over a decade being played competitively, but let's all be sensible enough to admit that its longevity is really just a freak accident. It's an outlier in a realm where games will often be hardpressed to go past 5 years of serious competitive play and for the most part, its success was centered in a specific region of the world where the conditions were just right to foster its growth. I personally do not hold the belief that this success could be emulated at will and until it can, video games will always be short-term endeavors with uncertain expiration dates and along with them, the careers of their star players.
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It's a great and insightful article, but you should work on your comma use. The content was great, but the read was a mentally bumpy ride.
Good article. ^^
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On June 05 2010 02:55 wiesel wrote:
Actually professional sport is very unhealthy. You will see many guys with knee problems and other bad injuries in their 30s. But yup i agree with your argument about the short lifespan of computer games in general.
But casually playing sports is generally better for your social and physical health than playing games, which is why games won't become as accepted as real sports are, at least not the foreseeable future.
But yeah, there's almost no chance of esports going as mainstream as sports.
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9070 Posts
On June 05 2010 03:44 XFire wrote:
It's a great and insightful article, but you should work on your comma use. The content was great, but the read was a mentally bumpy ride.
Good article. ^^
Thank you for your feedback ^_^ I've learned english by watching cartoons and playing computer games, and it kind of shows, but I'm doing my best to improve it keke
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Kespa is bad, but Blizzard is worse. Need a third party to save the day.
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On June 05 2010 05:00 kmdarkmaster wrote:
Kespa is bad, but Blizzard is worse. Need a third party to save the day.
activision.
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On June 05 2010 05:04 FraCuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 05:00 kmdarkmaster wrote:
Kespa is bad, but Blizzard is worse. Need a third party to save the day. activision.
not destroy
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please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist.
without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers.
without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro
without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play.
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On June 05 2010 02:02 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 01:02 Skillz_Man wrote:
[EDIT] Lastly I do really want to mention salaries. The 30th best player in StarCraft makes about 20k a year, Flash makes 150million WON which is about 85k if I'm not mistaken. Do note that most of these players don't go to university or any post secondary education and the average 3 to 4 year career wont make them too much money, then they don't have many places to go. Parents look down at you if you're trying to become a progamer, and those players are also lower on the Social level. It's just the nerds that have trouble getting friends, they play when they have nothing to do.
I would really like to see other point of views so if you have any points against mine please do share. Flash earns 250-300k $ and more a year. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129095Jaedong probably around the same. Flash can make enough in 3-4 years to never work again in his life. But yea this only applies to the superstar players.
Hmm, we'll as far as I'm aware Jaedong was making low money (under 100m won) in the FA period, which if 300m is 250k so thats $85k or less I would have thought that the best players wouldn't be getting much more. Regarding that I had no idea Flash was making so much money. Nada was the highest earning progamer; a 3 year plan for $700. But besides Flash I can guarantee nobody makes over 200mil won, Calm makes 150mil and Kal makes 120m but those are the highest that were publicly released.
EDIT: People are looking for insigtful opinions in this thread so don't be compaining about comma use or just say Blizzard/KeSPA is bad without evidence.
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This article show that BW is the esport game.
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Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments.
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I'm loving the article and the Capablanca reference.
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On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote:
Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments.
In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
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Great read, loved it! those games by the way were amazing lol
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On June 06 2010 03:36 Radio.active wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote:
Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments. In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
I really don't understand why people say starcraft isnt a sport in a traditional sense, isn't korea proof of this?
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On June 05 2010 05:18 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
please don't start this oldschool vs current progamer thing. my favorite zerg has changed over the years from yellow, to july, to savior, to jaedong. of course the oldschoolers aren't going to be as good as champions in the current metagame, but they're the reason why they exist.
without boxer, yellow, and other's sweat and tears esports wouldn't even exist. the oldschoolers didn't have a whole archive of replays left over from last generation's players to watch and build upon. they hardly even had teams with sponsors. it is their effort and passion that created everything for new players like flash and jaedong, and you weren't even there to see it, so don't bash on them just because they aren't as good as new schoolers.
without nada's 400 apm you wouldn't have flash macro
without boxer's creativity you wouldn't have mech or dropship play.
This is delusional thinking. If Nada and Boxer weren't there, someone else would have taken their place. Now, I can't guarantee that the Terran metagame would have developed as fast, but you can't guarantee that it wouldn't have developed at all. For all we know, someone even better and more creative than Boxer could have come out if Boxer hadn't beaten him to the punch.
Your first statement about Nada makes no sense; Flash would still have his macro. And the Boxer statement is even worse; it's not like Boxer was the only capable of inventing/standardizing mech and dropship play, it's just that he was the first (and he did it with style), which is why we respect him so much.
I don't deny the "sweat and tears" that the older gamers put in, but honestly, I think if Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were to switch roles with Boxer, Yellow, etc. (in terms of when they were born and began to game hardcore), they would have put in the EXACT SAME amount of effort needed to create the sports scene. But like I said, it just so happened that the older gamers did what they did first, and all the respect goes to them for it.
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On June 06 2010 03:36 Radio.active wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 02:45 shinigami wrote:
Yes, but we must remember that it's not a sport in the traditional sense, but that it is a game that can sustain itself in similar environments. In a sense yes, but by technicallity all sports are just games; football, basketball, soccer, hockey, cricket... lets just put it this way, all sports are just games, the only thing separating starcraft and "regular" sports is that one is considered a kids game by everyone besides korea.
Computer games are proprietary.
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EPT
