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On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
seriously? blizzard has a commitment to their stockholders, they can't just say "fuck it" to one of their biggest markets.
not to mention, korea probably WILL be the "hub for RTS" in the future. They have the culture, they have the infrastructure, and they have the sponsors. you know how before the beta everyone was predicting how foreigners would be dominant in the beta? well it turned out to be complete bullshit
lastly, if blizzard wants to centralize e-sports, they will kill it. if blizzard had the same amount of control over sc1, there would be no anti-hack, there would be no bwchart, there would be no iccup, there would be no foreigner scene at all. Nobody wants to fucking pay blizzard royalties or get sued by blizzard, who im sure could afford all the world's best attorneys
edit: btw, stop bashing on kespa. kespa = mbc, ogn, companies that sponsor all the progaming teams, the company that owns shinhan bank. so yeah, without kespa there would be no progaming scene
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On April 26 2010 00:56 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:38 J1.au wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 [X]Ken_D wrote:On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors. I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough! But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it. Your hypothetical precludes the notion of any kind of alternative organization. Did KeSPA extend the life of BW? Probably. But if KeSPA wasn't around, another group would have likely filled their place. In 2010, I believe that's a certainty.
This line of argument doesn't even mean anything. Just about everyone important in the early Korean SC scene either became part of KeSPA or were at the start. I mean, KeSPA was officially created in 2000 and already had rankings out that year, so it's not as if we're talking about extremely recent developments here. It's perfectly reasonable to note that KeSPA has made competitive SC into what it is today, especially given 10 years of Blizzard being nearly completely absent.
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On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long.
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On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
The scene in Beta is not even close to what BW is in Korea. Come back with that statement when you have companies like Korea Air and Samsung backing you up with daily SC show broadcasted on TV. An underground competitive society does not make.
I think blizzard should stick to making games and not manage them. It's clear that all the complexities of their games have risen from other parties. Making games and managing games are very different. And thus far blizzard has shown me nothing close to compare to other organizations in facilitating competitive play. All of their games have been made competitive not by them, but by third parties. They might have a cutesy tourny here and there, but that doesn't make a Korean Proleague or any other proleague.
Blizzard cares too much about making the game easier mechanically and easier to learn, and putting the achievement system and investing so much into the single player is a sign of this. I'm not saying you can't have both, but it's clear they are gearing their game toward a more general, and potentially less competitive audience. It's too tame if Blizzard manages their game in these respects, Blizzard is too "good" in that sense. Its like a government run company versus a privately owned company.
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Kespa cares about one thing and one thing only: money. Take a look at how they treat their players. Even the best Starcraft players only earn a fraction of the money that they make for the tv networks and sponsors.
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On April 26 2010 01:34 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to. The scene in Beta is not even close to what BW is in Korea. Come back with that statement when you have companies like Korea Air and Samsung backing you up with daily SC show broadcasted on TV. An underground competitive society does not make. I think blizzard should stick to making games and not manage them. It's clear that all the complexities of their games have risen from other parties. Making games and managing games are very different. And thus far blizzard has shown me nothing close to compare to other organizations in facilitating competitive play. All of their games have been made competitive not by them, but by third parties. They might have a cutesy tourny here and there, but that doesn't make a Korean Proleague or any other proleague. Blizzard cares too much about making the game easier mechanically and easier to learn, and putting the achievement system and investing so much into the single player is a sign of this. I'm not saying you can't have both, but it's clear they are gearing their game toward a more general, and potentially less competitive audience. It's too tame if Blizzard manages their game in these respects, Blizzard is too "good" in that sense. Its like a government run company versus a privately owned company.
which top sc2 player is saying that it's too casual and too easy?
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On April 26 2010 01:29 jax1492 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors. I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long.
When was kespa formed? It was definitely after BW had had multiple big sponsors.
Not sure but Coca Cola I think sponsored before kespa was formed.
Kespa has really nothing to do with BW becoming an esport either, they formed well after it had become professional and there were multiple tv leagues.
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this could potentially have a very interesting outcome. SC2 would be run by a new esports association, which would probably be worldwide. This means Koreans wouldn't be the only truely competitive SC scene. It would make for more entertaining tournaments also because you could root for your national hero. I'm not saying that i hate only koreans being the top players, but it would be cool to see a bit of a change.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On April 26 2010 01:40 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 01:29 jax1492 wrote:On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors. I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long. When was kespa formed? It was definitely after BW had had multiple big sponsors. Not sure but Coca Cola I think sponsored before kespa was formed. Kespa has really nothing to do with BW becoming an esport either, they formed well after it had become professional and there were multiple tv leagues.
Do you remeber KPGA Tours from 2001–2003? And do you know that KPGA formerly was the name for KeSPA?
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On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
Korea does matter, and it matters a great enough deal for Blizzard to hire a Korean team to work with them in their own HQ, go read the latest David Kim and the Mike Morheim interview and try understand why Blizzard would go through that much trouble all for the sake of one country. Hint: everything revolves around maximizing profits and sales. Korea matters enough for Blizzard to go through all that investment.
Korea is not just a hub for RTS games, it's the only country to successfully incorporate team sponsorship from the biggest and the most powerful corporations from within the country, allowing e-sport to become a lucrative and well organised, professional industry.
This is not happening anywhere else in the world and this will not happen anytime soon in Europe or the USA for various reasons, for example: competitive gaming is still not mainstream enough, or due to lack of lobbying or successful entrepreneurial efforts.
There is no where else in the world where there are so much sponsorships from giant corporations willing to pay teams and gamers that well. The Korean government did help in supporting Korean
e-sport during its infant stages too, from what I've read in Boxer's autobiography.
In the end, the best competition and training environment will be where there is the most money, and that place will be Korea for a long time to come.
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On April 26 2010 01:37 pheus wrote:
Kespa cares about one thing and one thing only: money. And this is different from Blizzard how...?
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It's a pretty interesting situation. It's like KeSPA have thrown everything at Blizzard (the adult rating of sc2, GOM etc) to try and show that they are the boss (or atleast, they should be listened to); then Blizzard has just turned around and ended them.
KeSPA has been asking for this kind of result from Blizzard for a while now. I just hope KeSPA don't bring everything down with them in spite. It was always a bit crazy to try and act hardball with the people that could literally take away your sport.
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SC2 will succed without kespa anyway.. so good decition
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"seriously? blizzard has a commitment to their stockholders, they can't just say "fuck it" to one of their biggest markets. "
Yet what did blizzard get of that marked? apart from the copies sold...im sure they can top that with selling sc2 allready. And blizz got enough money to get another "kespa" working for them in korea...its all about the money. Blizz got it.
Lil sidenote: since this is america, their economcy isnt exactly based on "saving the investor" :p
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Can we stop saying "they so greedy lulz, all they want is money"? No fucking shit they want money, they're a business, we all KNOW this already, so stop babbling! That being said, wanting money is not a bad thing. If you want money, you need to do a good job so that people will buy your game. The recent interview however, and I happen to believe it, stated that Blizzard is not after money with SC2, and seriously, why would they? The subscription money they get from WoW makes in a month what SC2 retail sails will make in a year. They are using SC2 to further eSports, and Battle net, SC2 is not about making money, its a means to making money elsewhere.
My two cents, but gee golly I haven't really studied the subject so this might just be guess work, what do you think?
edit: though royalties from televised progaming would make perfect sense.
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I wonder what the disagreement between the companies were. I don't think the interview specifically states that.
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Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
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On April 26 2010 02:45 ohN wrote:
I wonder what the disagreement between the companies were. I don't think the interview specifically states that.
briefly;
blizzard wants a piece of the progaming pie and kespa doesnt want to move an inch.
blizzard attempts to enter the market by partnering with gomtv so kespa kills gomtv
korea rates sc2 18+, speculation is that this is because of the influence of kespa
blizzard stops fucking around and ceases negotiation and effectively signs kespas death warrant. maybe not immediately but we'll see in a couple of years down the track
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On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote:
Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
Isn't this more analogous to buying some cars, holding televised races, and not paying royalties to the car manufacturers?
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On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote:
Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on
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EPT
