Sources: Yonhap News,via Daum. Everyone who is gonna repost this on their website, at least credit Yonhap as the original source for the love of god.
Here's my indirect translation of the relevant points from the two articles (April 25th) :
During the recent Blizzard HQ visit, Yonhap News sat down with Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime and COO Paul Sams for an interview. During this interview, it was revealed that Blizzard will no longer be negotiating with KeSPA (Korea E-Sports Association) regarding the intellectual property rights of their games.
Morhaime said "We've been negotiating with the association about intellectual property rights for the last three years, and we've made no progress at all... ...We're going to stop negotiating with them and look for a new partner." He also mentioned "Blizzard obviously has the IP rights to the Starcraft series, but those rights aren't being respected, and we can't keep having these fruitless negotiations with the release of Starcraft II at hand."
In a worst case scenario, all Korean Starcraft tournaments that run through KeSPA may be forced to stop.
+ Interviews
Yonhap: What's the scale of the your company and the projects you have going? Mike Morhaime: We have over four thousand employees worldwide, with about 1,200 of them working in our Irvine HQ. We have branches in Europe, China, Seoul, Taiwan, and Singapore.
We have projects including World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, Diablo III, and one unannounced MMORPG. The other projects I cannot reveal.
Yonhap: How is progress on Diablo III? MM: It's going well, satisfactory. We added some new guys to the original diablo team, so we have a great team now. It's playable internally right now. We can't predict when it will be released, but it won't be this year in any case.
Yonhap: There are high expectations for Starcraft II MM: Very high for us. Not just the multiplayer, but the single player experience is the best we've ever made. The original did so incredibly well in Korea that it will be hard to surpass that, but we are going to break the original's sales records worldwide.
Yonhap: What's Blizzard's vision for E-sports? MM: Our understanding of E-sports is as a community project that increases the enjoyment of the game for the players. It's going to be popular not only in Korea, but worldwide.
Of course it could be profitable as well, but we're focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects. If we turn a profit, we plan to reinvest a large portion of it to development e-sports even further, in the form of sponsorships, prize money, etc.
Yonhap: How are your negotiations involving intellectual property with KeSPA going? MM: We've tried to talk to KeSPA for three years, but we can't get them to recognize our IP rights. Of course we think our IP rights should be respected. Starcraft II will be released soon, so we will have to look for a new partner.
Yonhap: Starcraft II received a 18 years + rating in South Korea? MM: I was surprised. We designed it from the start as a game teenagers could enjoy. We've filed an objection, so I hope the rating is reconsidered.
Have you heard about the match-fixing scandal in Korea? MM: I was shocked and very disappointed. I've heard the police are investigating, and am interested in the results.
What kind of business model and future do you have envisioned for Battle.net? Paul Sams: Battle.net will be a hub for all of Blizzard's games, and help develop the community and e-sports. The specifics of our business and service model can change from game to game, and region to region.
Our basic policy is to make the games on a global basis, but thoroughly localize the services.
Yonhap: What's the secret to your global success? PS: The most important thing is to get a lot of feedback from the start. There are different opinions to be heard everywhere in the world. Listening to all these opinions and applying them lets you succeed in international market.
What kind of quality standards do you set for yourselves? PS: We don't have any set standards of quality. We try to get as many opinions as possible during development, and improve the games from there.
Internally, we constantly show the games to others and get feedback so we can fix and improve the game. After we repeat that process countless times, we finally get something we can reveal.
Yonhap: What's your strategy for the mobile games market? PS: We think of mobile phones as a way to support our existing franchises. I can't really say anything about our plans for games on smart phones.
Yonhap: So what are your plans for games outside the PC? PS: Making good games is the first thing. We have an open mind on all platforms, and we don't make games with a particular platform in mind. The best way to is to make the game, then decide what the best platform for it would be.
Yonhap: Do you see an opportunity in the emerging social gaming market? PS: If you look at its recent popularity, social gaming can definitely be a part of a game. But we don't think they require a lot of skill to make, or are particularly competitive in the market. They still have a long way to go.
Yonhap: What do you think of the social responsibility of a game company? PS: World of Warcraft willingly introduced the world's first fatigue system to prevent people getting too deeply involved. Besides this, we're protecting our users through a variety of methods, and we'll continue that policy. Soon, we are going to unveil a program for giving back to the community in Korea.
Yonhap: What are your plans for investing in Korea? PS: We don't have any acquisition or investment plans yet. When you develop a game, there has to be a lot of communication and cooperation. It's very hard to do that with a foreign branch. That's why we have the entire development team at our HQ.
Yonhap: What do you think is in the future for online gaming, and the gaming market as a whole? PS: Online games will continue to grow. PC Games and social games will continue to grow as well. But I don't think the console game market is in any trouble. It's in a slight haze right now, but it will recover.
Hopefully Blizz can find a better partner and the games can continue. It would be a real shame if progaming leagues had to stop, my life would be so empty sad times.
Oh man this is not good. Not good at all. I wonder whats gonna happen with all those pro-teams. Kespa is so proud of itself. This kind of behavior might not be the proper one, after all "business talking", they are losing way to much if they keep trying not to negotiate with Blizzard.
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
On April 25 2010 12:24 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: No more Kespa and hope for a btter replacement: good
Potential breakdown of the ESPORTS scene: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU
o.o
at the very least SC1 however, its not dead yet but SC2 will come out and theres alot of westerners playing so im doubting korea will be the center of ESPORTS in this game..
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
On April 25 2010 12:36 Megalisk wrote: So SC2 can potentially fizzle and fail as an ESPORT? Sweet..
Nope. If there is demand, another group, LESS FUCKING RETARDED than Kespa, will step up to the plate. I have no fear whatsoever that SC2 (and SC1 for that matter) can continue just fine without Kespa.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
as much as i appreciate the work kespa has done over the 10 years of esports, just from a strategic perspective i feel this is a good move by blizzard. for blizzard to get a piece of the pie, they need to get kespa to think they (kespa) are bargaining from position of weakness, and what better way to do that than to stop negotiations and seek a more accommodating partner. plus points if that partner has previous experience with starcraft broadcasting and might have a bit of an axe to grind with kespa (GOM).
the only problem i foresee is if kespa gets government support in their negotiations, or if they take a united-we-fall approach with the progaming teams. if not, they need to find a more acquiescent approach if they want to maintain leadership in Asian esports
This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
... Holy shit, all I can say is that this better not kill the SC:BW progaming scene. I would be so fucking angry and disappointed, and I'm just an observer. Think about how much time and energy the players, coaches, and teams have put into this game. How can they not come to negotiable terms? What is Blizzard's recourse if KeSPA just completely ignores them? Are they planning to pursue that? What is the likelihood of SC:BW no longer having a progaming scene if there is a confrontation?
Kespa are being bastards, Blizz did all they can do. Kespa would not exist without blizzard's game, though e-sports would not exist without kespa, but the fact of the matter is, it is blizzard's game.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
i don't understand the inverse relationship you're assuming between Korea's pro scene and English tournaments/commentating. English tournaments never took hold because no one knew how to market it, not because the Korean scene was crowding them out.
On April 25 2010 12:55 integral wrote: ... Holy shit, all I can say is that this better not kill the SC:BW progaming scene. I would be so fucking angry and disappointed, and I'm just an observer. Think about how much time and energy the players, coaches, and teams have put into this game. How can they not come to negotiable terms? What is Blizzard's recourse if KeSPA just completely ignores them? Are they planning to pursue that? What is the likelihood of SC:BW no longer having a progaming scene if there is a confrontation?
amen. the SC:BW pro scene in korea are the ones who got me playing SC:BW.
On April 25 2010 12:57 avilo wrote: Kespa are being bastards, Blizz did all they can do. Kespa would not exist without blizzard's game, though e-sports would not exist without kespa, but the fact of the matter is, it is blizzard's game.
so what, Blizzard never cared about starcraft. after they realize that korea made starcraft into the media spotlight. they started to care. why do u think it took blizzard 12 years to make sc2?
This is really sad news that they could not come to agreement. Kespa has quite a lot of resources to be quite good at running SC2 tournaments, but they have failed hard on this one. Their stubbornness has dissolved their relationship with Blizzard, and they have hurt E-Sports fans because of it. I cannot forgive them for that...
Thankfully, StarCraft is such a great game that with Blizzard's support, it will still succeed competitively. I hope OGN and MBC Game will be able to deal with Blizzard directly and continue to broadcast games.
On April 25 2010 12:57 avilo wrote: Kespa are being bastards, Blizz did all they can do. Kespa would not exist without blizzard's game, though e-sports would not exist without kespa, but the fact of the matter is, it is blizzard's game.
Well im sure there would be someone else who would have made an esports association if kespa didn't.
From a business perspective, Kespa has absolutely no leverage. They have no legal claim or backing for their position. As an organization they are replaced far far far more easily than Blizzard is. They need Blizzard and Blizzard doesn't need them. I am actually shocked it took this long for Blizzard to do something about it. They may have actually timed this move to coincide with the release of SC2, which could speed the development of e-sports in areas outside of korea.
On April 25 2010 13:11 skuj wrote: what kind of governing body does chinese esports have? could this be helpful in uniting the asian esports scenes?
Not going to help. China is still a developing country isolated from the rest of the world, for the most part, due to the Great Firewall of the Communist Party. Their internet issues really prevent them from developing a very vibrant eSports scene without LAN support (and it looks like SC 2 might not have LAN support...)
The more I think of it I find its a good thing to keep kespa out of the picture as much as possible. What I dont like, and I might have misunderstood this, is that Blizzard want sole rights on creating tournaments? or whats the deal with denying kespa to do it?
None of which matters if the money dries up. Warcraft 3 proved that competitive RTS can survive outside of Korea (namely China), so KESPA's going to fold.
There's been a lot of responses in this thread saying that Blizzard has nothing to lose, but I don't think it's as true as most of you believe.
Disregarding the issue of team support, which has already been mentioned already, I feel like KeSPA has at least some leverage in the Korean media, certainly more than Blizzard. I know this is pretty much true for a fact for e-sports media like fomos and dailyesports and such, but it may even extend to the more mainstream media as well. (Actually, let me word it this way. They probably don't have leverage at all in the mainstream media, but in the end, KeSPA is Korean while Blizzard is not.)
If so, they can and will spin this issue so that Blizzard is solely to blame for the negotiation failures, and Koreans are particularly easily influenced by the media, especially if the media spins it in a way that makes them feel like they are being persecuted by a foreign power. (Never do the Koreans stick together stronger than when they feel like they're being persecuted, or when they cheer for a national hero, as was sort of mentioned in the Kim Yun-a thread.)
This could potentially lead to a scenario where a large portion of Koreans just flat-out boycott Blizzard. This would affect not only the e-sports industry, but maybe the sales of SC2, and possibly even the WoW population of Korea as well (which, as I understand it, is not insignificant).
I know this is an unlikely scenario, and I'm probably over-exaggerating, but it's certainly not an implausible scenario, considering what I know about the Korean mentality.
Does KeSPA have more to lose than Blizzard if the worst is to happen? Absolutely. That's pretty much undeniable. KeSPA without SC:BW is nothing, and will crumble instantly. But does Blizzard have nothing to lose? No, at least I don't think so.
On April 25 2010 13:52 konadora wrote: uh KeSPA does manage other leagues too you know :< (although undeniably BW is the biggest league they will ever handle)
Yes, but I'm pretty sure the revenue earned from those other leagues are not even close to enough to keep KeSPA afloat. I may be wrong, but in my mind, Korean e-sports basically is BW
On April 25 2010 13:51 Jaester88 wrote: There's been a lot of responses in this thread saying that Blizzard has nothing to lose, but I don't think it's as true as most of you believe.
Disregarding the issue of team support, which has already been mentioned already, I feel like KeSPA has at least some leverage in the Korean media, certainly more than Blizzard. I know this is pretty much true for a fact for e-sports media like fomos and dailyesports and such, but it may even extend to the more mainstream media as well. (Actually, let me word it this way. They probably don't have leverage at all in the mainstream media, but in the end, KeSPA is Korean while Blizzard is not.)
If so, they can and will spin this issue so that Blizzard is solely to blame for the negotiation failures, and Koreans are particularly easily influenced by the media, especially if the media spins it in a way that makes them feel like they are being persecuted by a foreign power. (Never do the Koreans stick together stronger than when they feel like they're being persecuted, or when they cheer for a national hero, as was sort of mentioned in the Kim Yun-a thread.)
This could potentially lead to a scenario where a large portion of Koreans just flat-out boycott Blizzard. This would affect not only the e-sports industry, but maybe the sales of SC2, and possibly even the WoW population of Korea as well (which, as I understand it, is not insignificant).
I know this is an unlikely scenario, and I'm probably over-exaggerating, but it's certainly not an implausible scenario, considering what I know about the Korean mentality.
Does KeSPA have more to lose than Blizzard if the worst is to happen? Absolutely. That's pretty much undeniable. KeSPA without SC:BW is nothing, and will crumble instantly. But does Blizzard have nothing to lose? No, at least I don't think so.
Jaester88 knows what he's talking about. Kespa has the power of the Korean government and Korean People. Blizzard can talk about how Kespa violates their intellectual property. But I guarantee you that the Korean courts will back Kespa. Blizzard needs to recognize that and work with Kespa to figure out a solution, even if it means giving up all the esports dollars in Korea, at least they can earn money from game sales. That's the cost of doing business in Asia.
Yeah, the biggest thing i see here is not that, culturally, kespa has leverage, but that since its a government backed organization it will kwanroll Blizzard.
i'd say blizz has been extremely forgiving/linear towards the attitude of kespa for tolerating their bullshit for 3 years, lets not forget how kespa has the galls to collect broadcasting right fees from ogn and mbc for an intellectual property that they do not own, and the wonderful job they've done over the years "regulating" the e-sports scene in korea, good riddance blizz.
something need to happen to clean up this kespa mess, i think the koreans would agree on that as well, lets see what's kespa next move now, use its corporate connection to get SC2 an AO rating? or worst banned in korea? i doubt there's any other way out for them unless coming to terms with blizz.
people need to stop bashing on kespa. the people who sponsor starcraft leagues, the people who run starcraft teams, are the people who run kespa. without them broodwar would not have had a successful progaming scene. without kespa there is no starcraft 2 progaming in korea. i hope blizzard can stop trying to kill progaming with this and their other stupid plan for "pro league" replays to be released to the public
It's a really good timing from Blizzard though. The next 2-4 years do not need Korea to drive the competitive community, like they have done the past 10 years.
Also, did Blizzard ever mention removing BW as a possibility? From my understanding, the breakdown of negotiations was just from the point of running SC2 leagues and tournaments.
Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
As far as im concerned, if blizzard goes into Korea (sounds like a country invading) for the first little bit the pro scene will suffer but most likely recover.
Edit:
On April 25 2010 13:45 years wrote: Bringing down BW to make a point would be pretty stupid.
They are barely making money off of Sc:Bw now, their main goal is Starcraft II's success as an E-sport. Its no skin off blizzards back to bring down Sc:Bw atleast for the time being. KeSPA is making money of off other people's work although KeSPA brought korean e-sports together. Starcraft II getting a Adult rating in Korea is obviously to do with KeSPA trying to get Sc:Bw around so they can continue making money.
I'm not quite certain what the IP issue is all about -- but I sure hope Blizzard isn't whining about not making money off e-sports or something because that's pretty blatantly false and it's 100% their fault.
Excuse my ignorance but what does the issue exactly entail? Using Starcraft related images in advertisement? Or having Starcraft BW be so involved in such a huge competitive gaming scene? I honestly don't see a good reason Blizzard would have to make such a claim.
Can someone elaborate the specifics of what either party actually want from one another? In what capacity does Blizzard want KeSPA to respect their intellectual property? What is this thing about IP's and why does it matter?
On April 25 2010 14:16 Waxangel wrote: anyone who says KeSPA has the goverment's support, please substantiate that statement.
As far as I understand KeSPA is recognized and regulated by the Ministry of Culture, thus supported by a goverment institution. I don't know to what extent this support empowers KeSPA, but the fact alone that it is treated like an official representative of the Ministry of Culture gives it more leverage against Blizzard, specially if Korea is sensitive on subjects which can be interpreted through the patriotic or nationalist eyelens.
It would be interesting to know more about the relationship between KeSPA and the Ministry, and how its viewed by larger government entities, presuming its even treated like something of importance.
On April 25 2010 13:45 years wrote: Bringing down BW to make a point would be pretty stupid.
They are barely making money off of Sc:Bw now, their main goal is Starcraft II's success as an E-sport. Its no skin off blizzards back to bring down Sc:Bw atleast for the time being. KeSPA is making money of off other people's work although KeSPA brought korean e-sports together. Starcraft II getting a Adult rating in Korea is obviously to do with KeSPA trying to get Sc:Bw around so they can continue making money.
I say its a dumb move because, bringing down BW, would probably deteriorate the image Blizzard has amongst e-sport fans in Korea. This is mere speculation though.
On April 25 2010 14:26 n.DieJokes wrote: Can someone elaborate the specifics of what either party actually want from one another? In what capacity does Blizzard want KeSPA to respect their intellectual property? What is this thing about IP's and why does it matter?
I think they want an agreement that they will pay them royalties in the future.
I don't really have that much faith in all these progaming dream outside of Korea. I mean there isn't enough gamers out there. Mainstream media in Europe don't give a damn about that, please don't tell me I'm wrong. When are you gonna see a national tv put on some progaming match? When you have Orange or Vodaphone as a sponsor, and who's gonna watch it? 15-25 male kids? Lol you think in a time of recession they would invest on something like that? So far nobody could make a living by just playing in Europe, I would advice the next generation to spend more time studying.
Blizzard can't do shit except making big cash prize tournament. I mean it's not like Korea, you're not gonna date or fuck chicks playing 15 hours a day.
I don't think they can touch BW, because didn't Blizzard sell off broadcasting rights for SC a couple years ago. But for SC2, KeSPA is fucked. Hopefully a different organization steps up.
Also, another thing: do we have any kind of knowledge to the content of the negotiations at all? Is there any kind of evidence at all that KeSPA is the one being difficult in the negotiations? Maybe it's Blizzard that's being preposterously unreasonable?
If there have been previous threads/articles that have shown that KeSPA was the one being unreasonable in negotiations, it would be much appreciated if someone could link the thread/article for me. Thanks.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
People still think kespa's some governing body like the fed or something, and that proteams can operate without them.
Kespa is SKT1, it's Samsung, it's OGN/MBC, it's made up of all these big corps that have sponsored and financed esports all these years and made it possible while Blizzard sold 3+ million copies of SC in S.K. That's why they feel they can't budge. If someone took the paper that you made and did wonderful things with it, wouldn't they lay claim to the creation?
Without these big corporate money and with just Blizz itself funding it SC2 scene would just be pitiful. It'd definitely roll back esports to small lan party tournies unless kespa can find another game for pros to play, or negotiate something that works for both sides.
I'm interested in the terms proposed by Blizzard, and Kespa's counter. But I guess that'd take a long time...
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
And substandard play...
Bah we all know sc2 is the rts of the noob. no question about that.
Blizzard is really in a big bind with StarCraft II in Korea. With 18+ rating StarCraft II cannot be broadcast on television in prime time or any time slot other than late night, meaning that there will be 0 money in it for TV broadcasters, even if they partner with GOM or other b-company. Plus the 18+ will affect the sales to an extent.
Because the game is not recognized by Kespa, progamers, as owners of the license will be forbidden to play televised (if there will be any) matches, and there in fact will be no StarCraft 2 progamers at all in Korea.
As for governmental support, a year or so back Blizzard appealed to Korean Ministry of Culture (not sure about exact name) after their first negotiations with Kespa and MBC/OGN failed, but they were sent back to deal with Kespa and threatened to set a 18+ mature rating for the game. Almost the same thing happened with China, only they gave the same rating 6 months earlier.
KeSPA was surely the main catalyst for BW's success, but I see absolutely no reason why KeSPA is needed for SC2. The pro scene for SC2 is not something that will magically appear. It does not automatically ship with the game. It will have to be grown from the ground up over years just like the starting days of BW. I see no reason why other sponsors or organizations cannot step in to take KeSPA's spot.
And this is just talking about Korea. This says nothing about SC2 for the rest of the world, and if the recent tournaments and support for BW worldwide are any indication, KeSPA controls a very small piece of the potential pie.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
And substandard play...
Give players a career for playing SC2 and they will give you quality play. There's nothing special about Korea there.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Exactly. Once a company realizes that there's money to be made in the hole that's left by KeSPA's absence in the SC2 scene, they'll jump on the opportunity. The money they gain from going into the industry is better than the no money they'd gain by not.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
And substandard play...
Give players a career for playing SC2 and they will give you quality play. There's nothing special about Korea there.
As in 14 hour a day slave condition training play?
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
That's pure speculation, as in BS.
We don't know the terms of either camps.
Wasn't there a thread on this very issue a month or two ago? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112686 IP is IP Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with SC2. From what I can tell it's just a bad business decision to not pay for right.(given that that's really the issue)
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
And substandard play...
Give players a career for playing SC2 and they will give you quality play. There's nothing special about Korea there.
lol no, it's public interest that made korea special
interest became money, sponsorship, became reputation, became professional, became esports
without interest you got nothing, just a few lans and people playing as much as they can leisurely
Exactly. Once a company realizes that there's money to be made in the hole that's left by KeSPA's absence in the SC2 scene, they'll jump on the opportunity. The money they gain from going into the industry is better than the no money they'd gain by not.
Wrong. There's a huge amount of risk involved. Money will be made on SC2 only if it proves to be as "progamer"/player friendly as SC was. Or else everything is just going to be extremely fragile -- in fact, if KeSPA is "against" SC2, a few comments by top progamers trashing SC2 will be enough to shut down the scene for a long, long time in Korea.
There is no guarantee that another fledgling company could pull off anything and make it solvent. That's likely why Blizzard spent so much effort trying to negotiate with KeSPA, since they know that to make SC2 anywhere close to competitive as SC is, they'll need a company that has proven themselves. Some other company? Good luck, KeSPA has a pretty nice monopoly, much like any other sports leagues out there. If anything, it wouldn't be a fledgling company, but Blizzard itself making a company (or fully supporting another company) to try and make it happen.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
you're confused xO
it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
you're confused xO
it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there.
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
How much of that money and how many of those tourneys have been popping out due to speculation of a possible progaming career?
And Korea is still the only country with the infrastructure to handle that, albeit China, and to a (very) lesser extent, countries like Germany are developing one.
yeah but who outside of korea's gonna take this thing seriously? you think teens in us or europe will show up in droves to support esports?
creating and promoting the "idea of esports" is what kespa, and pre-kespa, whatever you wanna call it, have done. that's the incredible thing. first and foremost. infrastructure will happen with time as long as there's interest.
which big foreign companies will sponsor so many leagues each year? why korea? china's got a huge growing esports scene, and the market's way bigger there. but china's proscene's still at least 5 years behind in all aspects, organization, players, recognition, etc.etc. it won't make it in time for sc2.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
Pretty much everything I would've wanted to say. Props to you sir. The exact stance I'm taking with my somewhat limited knowledge of the exact situation going on between Blizzard and KeSPA.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
you're confused xO
it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there.
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
But these are just random online tournaments, what about live events at venues? I doubt that will ever happen in america, if it does, it will so small scale that there won't be money to be made.
On April 25 2010 14:39 Jaester88 wrote: Also, another thing: do we have any kind of knowledge to the content of the negotiations at all? Is there any kind of evidence at all that KeSPA is the one being difficult in the negotiations? Maybe it's Blizzard that's being preposterously unreasonable?
If there have been previous threads/articles that have shown that KeSPA was the one being unreasonable in negotiations, it would be much appreciated if someone could link the thread/article for me. Thanks.
To be honest, it's more that the air around here has always had an anti-KeSPA sentiment. There are good reasons for this (such as how progamer free agency is handled), but in this case I think it's a little bit much. I would suspect that Blizzard are the ones being unreasonable, attempting to come back and claim royalties on a game they more or less gave up on so many years ago.
These are harsh words, but they need to be said. KeSPA has done far more for the advancement of BW as both a competitive game and an esport than Blizzard has. The community seems to have somehow lost a sense of how much maps played a part in game balance, how bad 99% of the official maps were, and how many years it took to get to the level we're at currently. KeSPA does deserve a large amount of the credit for both directly balancing things, and for creating enough interest in the sport so that the fuel can keep burning. It's more of an insult to the sport than anything when Blizzard steps up and complains they're not getting what they want out of it, years after someone else has made it into what it is today.
And to be honest, this isn't even touching the legal aspect of how IP rights are handled in different countries, which is a whole clusterfuck I'm sure most people don't want to even think about.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
1. Intellectual property is intellectual property. The license terms have to be respected. If Kespa wants to use Blizzard's IP as the basis for their league, then it is up to them to reach an agreement with Blizzard.
2. Blizzard's games speak for themselves. Very few people (especially outside of Korea) cared about SC. It has been about WoW for the last 4 years, and Kespa has nothing to do with its success. It is debatable how much of an effect the current Korean pro SC scene will have on Blizzard's SC2 sales and profits. How many casual gamers (i.e. the majority of the buyers of any game) care about or are even aware of the Korean pro SC scene?
I'd be interested in new leagues where the teams and players enjoy more independence from the organizing committee.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
you're confused xO
it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there.
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
But these are just random online tournaments, what about live events at venues? I doubt that will ever happen in america, if it does, it will so small scale that there won't be money to be made.
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment?
The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives.
Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies.
The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans.
Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age.
The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999.
you're confused xO
it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there.
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
Yeah, success of the SC 1 has no influence on the success of SC II.... Most of the posters here are spectators of Proleague/Starleague rather than serious players. You're joking if you think BW would have gotten big without KESPA.
Still makes you wonder how blizzard plans to introduce progaming in NA/EU, I just can't imagine it ever being streamed on live TV.
On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote: Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE!
Edit: Also consider that Kespa essentially banned its players from competing in Blizzard sponsored tournaments (GOMtv). They only did that so that they could control the entirety of the Starcraft scene and make huge amounts of money doing it.
Kespa made bank for years and Blizzard allowed them to do it freely. Now they are trying to BLOCK Blizzard from sponsoring tournaments!!! WTF Kespa!
On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote: Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
On April 25 2010 15:14 Zuchinni_one wrote: I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE!
lol
shining example of someone who still doesn't get it
On April 25 2010 14:39 Jaester88 wrote: Also, another thing: do we have any kind of knowledge to the content of the negotiations at all? Is there any kind of evidence at all that KeSPA is the one being difficult in the negotiations? Maybe it's Blizzard that's being preposterously unreasonable?
If there have been previous threads/articles that have shown that KeSPA was the one being unreasonable in negotiations, it would be much appreciated if someone could link the thread/article for me. Thanks.
To be honest, it's more that the air around here has always had an anti-KeSPA sentiment. There are good reasons for this (such as how progamer free agency is handled), but in this case I think it's a little bit much. I would suspect that Blizzard are the ones being unreasonable, attempting to come back and claim royalties on a game they more or less gave up on so many years ago.
I'm fully aware of the anti-KeSPA sentiment, and I'd gladly join the hate-on-KeSPA bandwagon if there's any basis for it because they've made some seriously retarded decisions in the recent past. I was just wondering maybe there was evidence that I've been missing because that would really help form my thoughts on this matter.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
... without KeSPA Korean BW would be a game enjoyed by millions of players with no guarantee of structural support for a professional league, without Blizzard Korean BW would literally be nothing. You really want to take that side of the argument?
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote: Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
why would samsung, a korean company, having invested so much already, allow itself to be ousted, and then continue to sponsor the events for *from their perspective* foreign entity who unseated them in korea to help them make korean money?
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
1. Intellectual property is intellectual property. The license terms have to be respected. If Kespa wants to use Blizzard's IP as the basis for their league, then it is up to them to reach an agreement with Blizzard.
And that'll just mean Kespa doesnt pick up SC2, and will continue simply with SC1. This means simply just means that SC2 wont get as big as SC1, which is no big deal, in the long run. But remember what blizzard is trying to do -- they want SC2 to replace SC1.
This pretty much means Blizzard has failed to accomplish what they wanted to do. No matter how good SC2 is, this is a negative signal on the company, and simply states that SC1's success wasn't replicated. To us who keep up with this stuff, we know better, but to the masses, this means a lot. "Why is there a SC1 proscene but not a SC2 proscene?" That question will speak for itself.
Blizzard NEEDS KeSPA (to make SC2 successful) and KeSPA NEEDS Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA needs blizzard more than blizzard needs KeSPA, and simply KeSPA rejecting Blizzard's terms tells you miles about how likely the terms offered to KeSPA was unreasonable.
Enforcing IP on this matter will lead to an inefficient outcome -- Blizzard loses advertising and reputation, KeSPA will just milk SC1 until it dies.
On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote: Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
why would samsung, a korean company, having invested so much already, allow itself to be ousted, and then continue to sponsor the events by *from their perspective* foreign entity in korea to make korean money?
are you seriously thinking it through?
Businesses don't do what they do for some convoluted sense of national pride. They do what they do for money. If Samsung sees money in the foreign eSports scene over the Korean eSports scene, why would they not put money into it? Why did Coca-Cola and Pringles, two American companies, invest money into a (then almost non-existent) Starcraft tournament in Korea? They saw potential for advertising their product so they did it.
On April 25 2010 15:14 Zuchinni_one wrote: I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE!
lol
shining example of someone who still doesn't get it
So if everyone is in agreement that KeSPA would be nothing without starcraft and starcraft would be nothing without KeSPA then why are we still arguing?
How do we even know the blizzard is trying to take a share of the MONEY? What are the odds that they just want THE e-sports organization to come aboard for starcraft II?
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Sure there will be. Most here foster hope that a competitive SC2 scene will equal if not surpass BW's success in Korea and I'm saying the most likely avenue to get to that point is through KeSPA. Could a non-KeSPA backed SC2 scene reach that point? I'm not going to absolutely 100% rule it out, but I don't believe it's what we as fans should be crossing our fingers for.
I don't like KeSPA any more than most other people here, just seems like they could most likely be a necessary evil for the growth of a thriving SC2 scene.
Businesses don't do what they do for some convoluted sense of national pride. They do what they do for money. If Samsung sees money in the foreign eSports scene over the Korean eSports scene, why would they not put money into it? Why did Coca-Cola and Pringles, two American companies, invest money into a (then almost non-existent) Starcraft tournament in Korea? They saw potential for advertising their product so they did it.
Of course they do. If Businesses go against national pride, they're going to lose support in that nation. In most cases, the businesses are korean businesses, and make most of their money in Korea. Of course they have to do things for some "convoluted sense" of national pride, and we koreans are pretty much the most hotheaded group of people on earth, we will boycott anything and everything whenever we can.
Why did CocaCola and Pringles support Korea? Advertisement. Simple as that. Why do companies "invest" in anything? They're not investing, they're advertising.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
1. Intellectual property is intellectual property. The license terms have to be respected. If Kespa wants to use Blizzard's IP as the basis for their league, then it is up to them to reach an agreement with Blizzard.
2. Blizzard's games speak for themselves. Very few people (especially outside of Korea) cared about SC. It has been about WoW for the last 4 years, and Kespa has nothing to do with its success. It is debatable how much of an effect the current Korean pro SC scene will have on Blizzard's SC2 sales and profits. How many casual gamers (i.e. the majority of the buyers of any game) care about or are even aware of the Korean pro SC scene?
I'd be interested in new leagues where the teams and players enjoy more independence from the organizing committee.
But we're talking about how SC2 will fare IN Korea. For that, yes, a compromise has to happen between Blizzard and KeSPA. KeSPA needs to use Blizzard's product, Blizzard needs KeSPA which controls the turf. Without KeSPA, Blizzard can still get small stuff in Korea (like GOM), but with little to no organized teams and very few sponsors. This applies to both of the points you countered in your post, as we're not saying SC2 will fail worldwide, but it isn't likely to develop into a popular e-sport (and get millions of additional fans and sales). I have had my dislikes of KeSPA and the way they have handled certain things over the years, but you have to face the fact that its not a simple matter to simply side-step them.
On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote: Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor.
You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Sure there will be. Most here foster hope that a competitive SC2 scene will equal if not surpass BW's success in Korea and I'm saying the most likely avenue to get to that point is through KeSPA. Could a non-KeSPA backed SC2 scene reach that point? I'm not going to absolutely 100% rule it out, but I don't believe it's what we as fans should be crossing our fingers for.
I don't like KeSPA any more than most other people here, just seems like they could most likely be a necessary evil for the growth of a thriving SC2 scene.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't KeSPA basically an organization formed to promote and protect the interests of the major sponsors like Samsung, SK group, etc? Everyone's talking about it like it's something that could be replaced - but that basically means removing all the current major Korean sponsors of pro Brood war and pro scenes of other smaller games like special forces. Not dealing with KeSPA means losing out on most of the sponsorship money and perhaps regulatory structure that sustains pro-BW right now, it's not as an alternative can instantly rise into place. Although the interesting thing is that major international sponsors like Intel would be willing to sponsor non-KeSPA associated events like some of the GomTV tournaments, so there still is a possibility for sponsorship money that way.
As to government influence, major companies all over the world often influence the local country's government, so it wouldn't be surprised. Actually, although I'm by no means an expert on the subject, from what I know there is significant cooperation between the South Korean government and the large "Chaebols" due to the history of South Korea's development, and even in recent times, there have been allegations of scandals (*).
For a site that is really all about the Korean pro-gaming scene, the lack of clarity as to who KeSPA represents and what KeSPA does is surprising. I wish I knew Korean so I could do some more digging around this subject to understand the politics and mechanisms around it.
I understand Blizzard's decision and they are definitely legally justified to do what they did. But I don't think that this is the best decision for promoting e-sports. They can just take a look at the sports model. Noone owns the entire sport. Each country would have their own domestic league. US baseketball doesn't belong to FIBA, it belongs to NBA. FIBA can have authority over certain regulations and such but NBA should have full autonomy over the business side of things. If Blizzard really wants SC to be an e-sport, they should be prepared to relinquish certain amount of control. They can still be in charge of inter-country tournaments.
On April 25 2010 15:20 Milkis wrote: And that'll just mean Kespa doesnt pick up SC2, and will continue simply with SC1. This means simply just means that SC2 wont get as big as SC1, which is no big deal, in the long run. But remember what blizzard is trying to do -- they want SC2 to replace SC1.
This pretty much means Blizzard has failed to accomplish what they wanted to do. No matter how good SC2 is, this is a negative signal on the company, and simply states that SC1's success wasn't replicated. To us who keep up with this stuff, we know better, but to the masses, this means a lot. "Why is there a SC1 proscene but not a SC2 proscene?" That question will speak for itself.
Blizzard NEEDS KeSPA (to make SC2 successful) and KeSPA NEEDS Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA needs blizzard more than blizzard needs KeSPA, and simply KeSPA rejecting Blizzard's terms tells you miles about how likely the terms offered to KeSPA was unreasonable.
Enforcing IP on this matter will lead to an inefficient outcome -- Blizzard loses advertising and reputation, KeSPA will just milk SC1 until it dies.
Kespa won't last very long sticking with SC1 (and why should they be allowed to do it if they don't reach an agreement with Blizzard)? SC2 is an opportunity for new competitive leagues to replace the old and stale. Many of them will fail, but if nothing new is tried, we'd all be the worse for it. Kespa is not known for being reasonable, so them rejecting Blizzard's terms does not automatically mean those terms were unreasonable.
On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote: Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
why would samsung, a korean company, having invested so much already, allow itself to be ousted, and then continue to sponsor the events by *from their perspective* foreign entity in korea to make korean money?
are you seriously thinking it through?
Businesses don't do what they do for some convoluted sense of national pride. They do what they do for money. If Samsung sees money in the foreign eSports scene over the Korean eSports scene, why would they not put money into it? Why did Coca-Cola and Pringles, two American companies, invest money into a (then almost non-existent) Starcraft tournament in Korea? They saw potential for advertising their product so they did it.
international scene is about 10 years behind china 5 years behind korea.
how can you still be arguing? interest, pal. that's the bottomline. korea shows interest in esports. if the leader in something colapses, the powers that be will only go where there's an actual vacuum - korea. but the government itself is standing with these big corps, who are trying to protect their investment.
the result is if blizz goes it alone it'll be a blimp on the radar. there'll be fewer teams, no fancy uniform, no fancy stage, lavish setup - the packaging will be downgraded to bulk and interest will go down dramatically.
you'd be a fool to think most people aren't there for the fancy packaging. the hardcore, well, we got those everywhere. they're too damn small and spread out.
Alright. I'll concede. I don't know enough about the situation at hand (companies involved in KeSPA, KeSPA and its companies' business aims, the history of the Korean proscene, the consequences of Blizzard's actions etc.) to continue to argue. No point in flooding my thread with long-winded probably wrong analyses of the situation at hand.
I'm not too interested with what the Koreans do with Starcraft 2 anyway with a burgeoning foreign scene.
What bargaining power does Kespa really think they have against the game creators? How can they be so fucking dense... they will cease to be if they don't work with Blizzard. (well they have other games but SC is by far the biggest i'd imagine).
Kespa is not known for being reasonable, so them rejecting Blizzard's terms does not automatically mean those terms were unreasonable.
What bargaining power does Kespa really think they have against the game creators? How can they be so fucking dense... they will cease to be if they don't work with Blizzard. (well they have other games but SC is by far the biggest i'd imagine).
I never said automatically, I said it was quite likely they were unreasonable.
Consider it this way, why else would KeSPA reject it? They know that they need Blizzard to survive. Why would they reject Blizzard, which without their support, their league will eventually die?
There's a difference between being unreasonable and suicide.
I think for sure if Blizzards dumps Kespa koreans are gonna be mad and SCII won't be successful there and byebye to the future of true esports. But w/e blizzard is so rich anyways so who cares.
Its amazing how most of the arguments here are "but kespa wasnt the one that made....."
Lets just replace the word "kespa" with "korea".
The reason we get daily broadcasted high quality and never boring games is because of korea. Without korea, starcraft would never be as credited as today.
Instead of "finding" a new partner, the should focus on actually helping the industry in korea. If, back then at day 1, Blizzard were to actually help the industry they would actually be swimming in royalty by now.
But no. almost 99.9% of the huge success of SC as an e-sports, is no doubt because of korea.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating.
Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer.
On April 25 2010 15:32 On_Slaught wrote: What bargaining power does Kespa really think they have against the game creators? How can they be so fucking dense... they will cease to be if they don't work with Blizzard. (well they have other games but SC is by far the biggest i'd imagine).
Influencing the ratings board to give SCII a nonsense adults only rating.
One thing you guys should consider is that esports dollars mainly comes from these big corporate sponsors. They neither charge for admission to esports events nor do they sell merchandise. Esports events are funded by team sponsors such as Samsung, SKT, etc.
My understanding is that Kespa blocked all its players from continuing to compete in the GOMtv tournaments that were sponsored by Blizzard.
I got that from several posts including the following from 'Go0g3n' + Show Spoiler +
KeSPA is a ruling agency (body) it doesn't pay anything to anybody. It's run by representative of Pro Teams and one each from OGN and MBC channels. They are the ones who will have to pay royalties for every single commercial broadcast involving StarCraft II, let alone all the sub-media that goes with it.
In US Blizzard would be entitled to a huge amount of royalties payments, in Korea it's enough to own a legal copy of the game to broadcast. Blizzard already tried to deal with relevant Korean authorities, but they were sent to "deal with KeSPA". They also tried to deal with MBC/OGN separately, failed there as well. But, and it's a big but, they can't broadcast games played over the web, i.e. on Battle.net, as it requires a completely different international license, which they won't get. Since there's no Lan - no broadcasts for now.
KeSPA answered by killing GOM. Blizzard was heavily sponsoring it, as it was getting more and more popular, probably aiming to build a platform for future SC2 broadcasts, leagues etc, they were shut down by decision of the majority KeSPA teams to not participate in GOM.
As said by artosis in a recent interview - it's a dead end with a lot of money at stake.
I covered all this in three KeSPA/Blizzard articles on GG.net
Another thing that's important is that Blizzard did absolutely nothing for StarCraft in terms of it's promotion and huge Korean and e-Sports success. They've even stopped supporting it after WC3 came out. It was KeSPA (at the time KPGA) who built the billion dollar industry of Korean StarCraft gaming and broadcasting.
On the other hand you have to realize that StarCraft broadcast is immensely profitable in Korea, be it on OGN, MBC, GOM, whatever. It costs next to nothing to create a 2+ hour broadcast that beats everything in 18-34 ratings - the most valued by advertisers. The costs are so low they can be only compared with a cheap-ass 30min/week game show, rather than 15hr/week of StarCraft broadcasts.
If Kespa is supposed to be all about Korean e-sports don't you think they should SUPPORT more e-sports and more tournaments?
I threw this poll question into a new thread. Click HERE to participate
Poll Question:
Do you agree with Kespa's decision to prevent Blizzard from continuing to sponsor professional Starcraft tournaments.(This was done by not allowing any Korean progamer to be a member of a Kespa team or participate in Kespa sponsored tournaments if they also competed in the Blizzard tournaments)
Kespa didn't create the market for esports. They capitalized on it. Starcraft was a huge success because starcraft was fun. Kespa came after starcraft was already popular. The only thing Kespa did was keep it popular. SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games. SC2 is going to be big because starcraft 1 was already popular and a good game back in 1999. Every game blizzard releases makes them an even bigger success. Warcraft 2 got a alot of attention. Diablo 1 got a lot of more attention. Starcraft got a ton of attention (enough to were there was a market for Kespa to run off). Diablo 2 got so much attention that for the next 5 years companies kept trying to produce a "diablo killer." Warcraft 3 got a ton of attention as well (even though you might dislike it). And finally world of warcraft, need I even say anything?
If there is a market for esports someone will take the opportunity. Kespa may of taken the risk earlier on but that doesn't give them rights to someone elses intellectual property. They are actually extraordinary lucky that blizzard hasn't collected royalties from the beginning.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
What an awful analogy you've come up with.
Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
I did some digging since no one else seems to know more, or those that know more aren't saying anything in here.
KeSPA is established in 2000 under the authority of Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. ... KeSPA is made up of 11 executive committee member-enterprises including SK Telecom. SK Telecom has been served as the Chief Executive since 2008. Under the leadership of Mr Seo Jin-woo, the head of SK Telecom GMS as well as the Chief Executive of KeSPA
So first things first, it's established with connections to the government, and the organization is basically composed of COMPANIES. The Chief Executive of KeSPA is the head of a division from SK Telecom, a member of the SK Group (one of the major sponsors - sponsoring the team T1, the Nate MSL, and more). So this establishes its relationship with the government as well as the fact that the organization is basically composed of companies, including the major sponsors.
The organization structure of KeSPA can be seen here. This shows that an entire chunk of KeSPA is devoted to "management of governmental cooperative affairs" and "management of relationships with government & regional state bodies", which shows that KeSPA is still working with the government to this day.
Finally, in part of their gallery, there is this. "Meeting with MJ Jung, the Chairperson of the Supreme Council of the grand National Party" So KeSPA is still continuing to build political links.
I love it. Kespa had no reason to be so cocky. Now its time to sit on a dick, Kespa.
I look forward to seeing Blizzard's new partner. Kespa is toast. If Kespa is going to be too stubborn to let their power fade, someone is gonna take it all.
Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating.
Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer.
And laws are different in Korea, apparently.
Kespa didn't create the market for esports. They capitalized on it. Starcraft was a huge success because starcraft was fun. Kespa came after starcraft was already popular. The only thing Kespa did was keep it popular. SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games. SC2 is going to be big because starcraft 1 was already popular and a good game back in 1999. Every game blizzard releases makes them an even bigger success. Warcraft 2 got a alot of attention. Diablo 1 got a lot of more attention. Starcraft got a ton of attention (enough to were there was a market for Kespa to run off). Diablo 2 got so much attention that for the next 5 years companies kept trying to produce a "diablo killer." Warcraft 3 got a ton of attention as well (even though you might dislike it). And finally world of warcraft, need I even say anything?
I'm pretty damn sure there are people like me who only got interested in SC after seeing televised games and people talking about it. Saying that "SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games" (or the rest of your post) is a pretty myopic viewpoint.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
The analogy was an extreme one made simply to make a point. It's silly to attack the analogy but not talk about the point.
To respond to your "Blizzard spent a ton of manhours", I'll argue that it was the progamers and the organizers who spent even more manhours playing the game and making the game a success beyond any other game. It is them who deserve it, not Blizzard, who already got their dues by selling the game, which was pretty much the only thing they thought of doing when they first made the game.
Sure, Blizzard made it a success, but it is the progamers and the organizers that made Starcraft a level beyond a "success".
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
What an awful analogy you've come up with.
Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on?
Kespa didn't create the market for esports. They capitalized on it. Starcraft was a huge success because starcraft was fun. Kespa came after starcraft was already popular. The only thing Kespa did was keep it popular. SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games. SC2 is going to be big because starcraft 1 was already popular and a good game back in 1999. Every game blizzard releases makes them an even bigger success. Warcraft 2 got a alot of attention. Diablo 1 got a lot of more attention. Starcraft got a ton of attention (enough to were there was a market for Kespa to run off). Diablo 2 got so much attention that for the next 5 years companies kept trying to produce a "diablo killer." Warcraft 3 got a ton of attention as well (even though you might dislike it). And finally world of warcraft, need I even say anything?
I'm pretty damn sure there are people like me who only got interested in SC after seeing televised games and people talking about it. Saying that "SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games" (or the rest of your post) is a pretty myopic viewpoint.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
The analogy was an extreme one made simply to make a point. It's silly to attack the analogy but not talk about the point.
To respond to your "Blizzard spent a ton of manhours", I'll argue that it was the progamers and the organizers who spent even more manhours playing the game and making the game a success beyond any other game. It is them who deserve it, not Blizzard, who already got their dues by selling the game, which was pretty much the only thing they thought of doing when they first made the game.
Sure, Blizzard made it a success, but it is the progamers and the organizers that made Starcraft a level beyond a "success".
Deserves compensation? Maybe not. Has a right to ask for compensation (for SC2)? I think so.
You're right, if we were talking about Blizzard trying to get in their share of compensation for BW, then they would have little to no right to ask for it.
But as far as I know, that's not what Blizzard is trying to do. They're trying to set up an e-sports scene with SC2 that resembles the one that KeSPA has been running for some time now. To use your own analogy, if the guy who invented basketball invented a similar sport based on basketball, let's call it bball2, does he not have a right to try and run a business with it in a similar way that NBA has been running it? Just because basketball is the basis for bball2, does that automatically make bball2 NBA's right to run it? The guy who invented bball2 has his bargaining rights, and NBA also has its own bargaining rights. Similarly with the current situation. To say that Blizzard has no rights to ask for compensation is a little too extreme, I think.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
What an awful analogy you've come up with.
Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on?
What the hell does that have to do with anything? I feel like you said something completely irrelevant on purpose to get me going.
The point is, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. KeSPA has completely ignored and circumvented several sections of the EULA, which is agreed to whenever Starcraft is installed on any computer used at a KeSPA-sanctioned event. For example:
2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors.
3. Responsibilities of End User. ... C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: ... (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details;
9. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws.
I think Blizzard has been very generous to turn a blind eye to these blatant and overt violations of the EULA in the past. If you want to say that South Korea and the KeSPA organization were instrumental in popularizing Starcraft, and may lead to increased Starcraft II sales, that's fine. However, that does not mean Blizzard has to waive the rights to its product. They simply want total control over Starcraft II and its "e-sport scene," and even if it is morally wrong, they are completely within their rights to do so.
Deserves compensation? Maybe not. Has a right to ask for compensation (for SC2)? I think so.
You're right, if we were talking about Blizzard trying to get in their share of compensation for BW, then they would have little to no right to ask for it.
But as far as I know, that's not what Blizzard is trying to do. They're trying to set up an e-sports scene with SC2 that resembles the one that KeSPA has been running for some time now.
I believe that Blizzard may be being unreasonable in their terms when dealing with KeSPA, with my reasoning based on the fact that no firm would commit suicide that easily.
I don't think they have a right to ask for compensation for SC2 unless they are heavily involved in the ESports themselves. A winwin contract would be Blizzard helping out flying SC2 on the runway (ie, sponsor many tournaments, etc etc) and then Blizzard getting a share for their investment. From what I can tell, Blizzard is attempting to use KeSPA's resources (ie, organized teams, proplayers, connections), and if that's the case, Blizzard should be paying KeSPA if they want a return on it. I'm willing to bet that this isn't the case with terms that were offered to KeSPA.
Has a right to ask for compensation (for SC2)? I think so.
I believe that Blizzard may be being unreasonable in their terms when dealing with KeSPA, with my reasoning based on the fact that no firm would commit suicide that easily.
I don't think they have a right to ask for compensation for SC2 unless they are heavily involved in the ESports themselves. A winwin contract would be Blizzard helping out flying SC2 on the runway (ie, sponsor many tournaments, etc etc) and then Blizzard getting a share for their investment. From what I can tell, Blizzard is attempting to use KeSPA's resources (ie, organized teams, proplayers, connections), and if that's the case, Blizzard should be paying KeSPA if they want a return on it. I'm willing to bet that this isn't the case with terms that were offered to KeSPA.
Yes, I completely agree. If Blizzard is not going to be involved at all in the e-sports scene of SC2, then they deserve no compensation. I was under the impression that Blizzard was going to be involved in the SC2 e-sports scene itself. In that regard, we both agree then.
why the hell is everone talking out of their asses. read all 8 pages and all i see is speculation conjectures inconclusive banter and pseudo lawyer talk. none of you guyz seem to know wtf you're talking about. let the big boys behind blizzard and kespa deal it out, we should stick to what we're good at and thats watching lee young ho rape everyone in sc right now.
I think it's precisely the attitude that "Blizzard owns SC/2 and should control everything/reap all the rewards" that is holding back SC2's development as a competitive sport.
Most other competitive sports developed when the core game was not owned by anyone, or at least not someone trying to extract all of the benefit for themselves. It takes many parties, each bringing their own expertise, in order to foster an environment where a game can become popular enough to support a fanbase that is large and valuable enough so that sponsors are willing to give away money in return for promotion of whatever they want to promote.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
What an awful analogy you've come up with.
Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on?
What the hell does that have to do with anything? I feel like you said something completely irrelevant on purpose to get me going.
The point is, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. KeSPA has completely ignored and circumvented several sections of the EULA, which is agreed to whenever Starcraft is installed on any computer used at a KeSPA-sanctioned event. For example:
2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors.
3. Responsibilities of End User. ... C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: ... (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details;
9. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws.
I think Blizzard has been very generous to turn a blind eye to these blatant and overt violations of the EULA in the past. If you want to say that South Korea and the KeSPA organization were instrumental in popularizing Starcraft, and may lead to increased Starcraft II sales, that's fine. However, that does not mean Blizzard has to waive the rights to its product. They simply want total control over Starcraft II and its "e-sport scene," and even if it is morally wrong, they are completely within their rights to do so.
Even in North America, what appears in the EULA isn't always legal. There have been many incidents where things in EULAs have been challenged in court and struck down.
And of course, in other countries, especially protective ones like South Korea, things will probably be even less favorable for Blizzard.
Surprised that some people are really missing the point of this - especially posters from the United States. For those who are too shortsighted and can't see "beyond the trees", here is what is going on:
1) First and foremost to the posters from the United States, do not assume that Korean courts will side with Blizzard. Too many US posters in this thread have a very shallow understanding of Asian business and politics. Doing business in Asia is not as transparent as the US and because of the government connections Kespa has, there is no guarantee the Korean courts will side with Blizzard concerning the copyright issues. I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa, because of Kespa's and Kespa's member's influence on the Korean government. The Korean government will protect its own organizations and not foreign organizations. As proof of this, look at how long it took Apple to get IPhone to Korea - there was simply too much resistance from the Korean mobile phone manufacturers against Apple.
2) If you missed the hidden message from Blizzard, this is Blizzard's response to the adult rating given to SC2. For those who believed that the Korean government's rating of SC2 had nothing to do with Kespa, think again. Kespa influenced the Korean government to give SC2 an adult rating and in turn, Blizzard is retaliating by cutting off all relations with Kespa.
3) For those who believe Blizzard and us ESports fan have nothing to lose, again you are wrong. You cannot duplicate Kespa's infrastructure setup, Kespa's relations with MBC and OGN, and Kespa's relations with the media in one easy step. Don't forget that Kespa has influence over the government, the media, and Korean e-sports scene. If Blizzard tries to push SC2 as an Esport on GOMTV, it could very well fail if Kespa is fighting Blizzard every step of the way. At the end of the day, not only can the SC1 E-Sports scene implode, but SC2 as an E-Sport may never take off for the same reasons.
This is very sad news. Both Blizzard and Kespa are jeapordizing the future of E-Sports. What I find the most discouraging are posters who believe that SC2 may take off as an E-Sport outside of Korea - there is no proof of that. In fact, there has been no successful E-Sports league that pays its players like SC1 in Korea for all video games world wide (Counterstrike is a joke) besides Korea - to assume that SC2 can establish a successful pro-league outside Korea is simply foolish. The best way for professional E-Sports to continue to gain traction is for a smooth transition from the Korean pro leagues from SC1 to SC2. Unfortunately, with the bickering between Blizzard and Kespa, this may not happen.
On April 25 2010 15:53 PanzerDragoon wrote: Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating.
Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer.
A copyright lawyer in the United States. Seriously, why are some US posters so dense on this issue? Don't assume that Korean courts will decide on issues in the same way as US courts.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
What an awful analogy you've come up with.
Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location.
Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine.
Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on?
What the hell does that have to do with anything? I feel like you said something completely irrelevant on purpose to get me going.
The point is, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. KeSPA has completely ignored and circumvented several sections of the EULA, which is agreed to whenever Starcraft is installed on any computer used at a KeSPA-sanctioned event. For example:
2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors.
3. Responsibilities of End User. ... C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: ... (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details;
9. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws.
I think Blizzard has been very generous to turn a blind eye to these blatant and overt violations of the EULA in the past. If you want to say that South Korea and the KeSPA organization were instrumental in popularizing Starcraft, and may lead to increased Starcraft II sales, that's fine. However, that does not mean Blizzard has to waive the rights to its product. They simply want total control over Starcraft II and its "e-sport scene," and even if it is morally wrong, they are completely within their rights to do so.
Even in North America, what appears in the EULA isn't always legal. There have been many incidents where things in EULAs have been challenged in court and struck down.
And of course, in other countries, especially protective ones like South Korea, things will probably be even less favorable for Blizzard.
You're absolutely right about the second part. I would say that the Starcraft EULA's legality is pretty well established in the U.S., though. Section 3 was instrumental in the Blizzard vs. bnetd case, which Blizzard won.
On April 25 2010 16:44 quietrio wrote: I saw a funny cartoon about the current sitautation between blizzard and Kespa in the Korean Starcraft2 community.
So, I am posting it over here.
enjoy.
I think a more accurate story for the comic is if Blizzard owned the plot of land, and K built the house/tree/fence on top of it. B still owns the property in the end and it seems perfectly reasonable to charge rent for its usage. I suppose it doesn't matter though, if the general Korean population doesn't share this view.
On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote: It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
ROFL, what tournaments? Name one SC2 tournament that pays $40K for first place (nevermind the prize money for 2nd, 3rd place, etc) and has thousands of live fans watching in a huge auditorium with significant media coverage and sponsors.
Some of you people are full of yourselves in here.
SC is a property of Blizzard, every nation has laws pertaining to intellectual property otherwise we' would not have companies selling products in different nations if they knew their products would not be safe.
It just comes down to the fact that KesPa is making money off another companies product without compensating that company.
I don't like Kespa, but I suspect Blizzard is much worst.
Without esport and Kespa, Starcraft would have been forgotten and 1- They would have sold much much less copies of Starcraft 2- Starcraft 2 wouldn't be so hyped and so awaited. Kespa is doing a huuuuuuge publicity to Blizzard, and I find perfectly normal that the money Blizzard get is by selling their games and not by Tv right or whatever.
Blizzard is the fattest and most lucrative video game company ever and now they want to shut down theses tournaments and association because they don't get extra money on top of selling 6 times more copies of the game than if the whole thing didn't exist? That's gross.
I started to dislike Blizzard, independantly of the awesome quality of their games, the day I saw the price of a WoW month. I call that racket.
The only good thing is that SC1 tournaments will probably carry on and that the pro scene will not turn immediately to SC2. I still don't see Starcraft 2 being nearly as good as BW and I don't want to learn a new game.
^Obviously you have never played an MMO before because thats the standard price for almost all the MMO's today.
Again you are missing the point, it is their intellectual property, a company that did not develop it is making money off it without paying royalty fees to the developer company. Something almost every company/event makers do when they wish to use somebody else's property.
The only unreasonable people being here are those of you who are calling Blizzard greedy and high horsing KesPA
So, wait, Kespa is denying Blizzard the fact that blizzard has intellectual property rights? The company that actually made the game which allowed Kespa to be created?
If Kespa doesn't get the rights, what is stopping another body from emerging and buying them? Maybe (an alliance of) OGN, MBC and/or GOM. Yes, OGN and MBC are part of Kespa, but if there's money to be made, that shouldn't stop them.
Does anyone know how big public interest in SC2 is in Korea? SC2's influence can definitely be observed in the foreign scene, is it the same in Korea?
Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
For all that kespa's done, I still applaud this move by Blizzard. Just as someone previously said, this only strengthens their position of negotiation, basically saying "fine, we don't need you. Who else wants to make an offer?" Considering the numeral .. scandals regarding kespa lately, I'm fine with seeing the structure change. That is, so long as the BW scene doesn't crash with it, which of course would be terrible.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
Excellent post here.
haha oh wow. first and foremost, kespa has done nothing noble for blizzard. kespa set out to make money and did so by broadcasting matches of a well designed and entertaining game. secondly, i want you to consider the amount of money that kespa is making by broadcasting starcraft games. they literally have TV channels that broadcast them every single day. do you think blizzard is so incompetent that they could not use a fraction of that profit on an effective marketing campaign and achieve the same level of hype? the average gamer outside of korea probably has no idea about the sc progaming scene while a majority of gamers in the world know who blizzard are. blizzard is a force to be reckoned with and that didn't occur just because kespa decided to broadcast SC.
for people who are saying kespa can't be replaced, the entire notion of that is simply absurd. if a company or conglomerate or whatever the hell kespa is can hand out $40k checks on a regular basis, organize huge tournaments matches, and virtually run TV stations dedicated to a video game, they aren't doing so out of the kindness of their heart. i'd imagine the starting capital needed to start something like progaming in korea would be near negligible since the market already exists. you need what? two computers, casters, audio / video stuff, and a station who will broadcast it. sure, it's oversimplified but the point is unless OGN / MBC are part of kespa (and even if they are i don't think they are willing to risk their livelihood and go down with the ship), they don't actually do anything some other committee couldn't do competently. the impression i'm getting from this thread is that kespa is simply a union of companies who have a stake in the progaming scene. they wouldn't have a stake if it weren't profitable and if it's profitable someone will replace them.
On April 25 2010 15:53 PanzerDragoon wrote: Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating.
Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer.
A copyright lawyer in the United States. Seriously, why are some US posters so dense on this issue? Don't assume that Korean courts will decide on issues in the same way as US courts.
It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets.
I think it's much more likely to say they will make a decision based on the (korean) law. If there's a sound reason why korean law would does not back intellectual property, then maybe the courts will side with Kespa. If there isn't, they're not going to magically make one up. Legal decisions aren't arbitrary opinions, down the road some foreign company use the decision to defend a similar action against a korean product.
Does Blizzard deserve compensation? I have no idea. Does it have some claim to intellectual property? Seems reasonable, I can't really see around it.
take that kespa .... it is about time somebody is hitting the breaks. kespa should be for players and not for making as much money as possible ( prolly the worst desease the world has ever seen )
^ nice translation Milkis As mentioned above, imagine playing SC without iCCup. -_-;; Oh, although I don't know the complete set of rules and ToS and whatnot, but if it's similar to the small portions revealed above, I imagine Blizzard can claim that TL.net is theirs? Will we need Blizzard's permission to post reps and vods of SC (and SC2)?
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
I completely agree with this post. Even though kespa is taking blizzard's game to run professional tournaments, it's not like they're hurting blizzard's sales. In fact, they've probably made it ten times better. If you look at blizzard's maps/strategy guides/bnet1 etc you'd get a good idea of how SC would be without kespa.
And I can't believe how 99% of the people just go "omg kespa is greedy as fuck and it's all their fault" when there wasn't even any evidence at all. Seriously, we all know kespa has been pretty stupid at times but this kind of prejudice is pretty stupid.
the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
How are those terms unreasonable? Blizzard wants permission when for-profit tournaments of their game are being held... so KeSPA can just ask for it... why would Blizzard refuse them?
Blizzard also wants royalties if someone airs their game on TV, which seems entirely reasonable, depending on how much they're asking for. If some TV show played a music clip, they have to give royalties to the music label, etc. Obviously if Blizzard want a big chunk of the pie, it'd be dumb, but since the talks seem to be going "nowhere", it sounds like KeSPA has rejected the idea of royalties outright.
If esports in Korea was not profitable there would have been no KeSPA. KeSPA got into it for the money. It is foolish to think otherwise. You can say KeSPA gave them free advertising or revenue all you want but that is just a side effect of it. KeSPA couldn't give a damn about that. They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't making them millions. They raked in profits off a product that Blizzard made. You can debate the legality of it all you want. I don't have the information to decide if it is legal or not. All I know is that Blizzard made Starcraft so they could turn a profit with it like any other business would. Not for someone else to profit from.
I think it is important to remember that Starcraft came out in 1998. The internet was not as big and integrated into our lives as it is today, online gaming was not a big deal, and there was no community. It is not practical to think Blizzard could have foreseen how everything would be today. Now Blizzard can see the situation and they want to both be in control of and be paid for the use of its products. Blizzard created and owns SC2 and deserves that. It is silly to vilify them for that.
Don't movie/tv companies get to control who gets to air their content and get paid royalties for it? How is this any different?
That is my perspective on it. I think there is far too little confirmed information out there to decide who is the bad guy here.
On April 25 2010 17:47 igotmyown wrote: It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets. .
Because you're assuming Korean courts will judge equally for both a foreign company and a local company, which is not necessarily the case. Korean courts and the Korean government are inclined to protect their own businesses, not foreign businesses.
Just recently, Taiwan was forced to enforce intellectual property more strictly due to international pressure:
What about the "respected professional judges" in Taiwan? LOL, you are so lost on this issue, it's laughable. You have a poor understanding of how Asian businesses, governments, and their courts work. They will protect themselves first, until they succumb to international pressure.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
-snip-
All of Blizzard's terms seem reasonable. I don't see why anyone would not want to profit off of the success of their IP being shown in various media outlets (televised tourneys, marketing for products, etc.).
KeSPA needs to sit down, shut the fuck up, and mind their manners.
KeSPA needs to know that they are dealing with Blizzard; the eternal will of the Starcraft IP, and that KeSPA has been created to serve them. Behold that Blizzard has tried to set them amongst the greatest of their creations, that they might benefit from the wisdom and experience of their maker. Yet KeSPA's purpose is unique. While others carry forth to the innumerable other IPs, they have but one charge entrusted to their care: E-Sports.
Let us go for a realllly basic analogy for people who think SC2 will flourish as an E-sport without KeSPA/Korea.
What do you get when you take 495 out of 500 of the worlds best players out of the NFL...? Oh right they did that, it is called the UFL. This is the US national sport and 99% of people will not watch that. Anyone care to list the sponsors of the UFL... right?
So an international community with limited E-Sports grounding or history without any of the games marquee names Flash, Jaedong or Stork etc. Trying to break in against 100's of more popular sports? Prospects seem slim huh.
Hopefully it works out for the best for everyone. But I never liked Kespa and am sorely confused how people think Blizzard owes Kespa anything or that Kespa has done more for SC and SC did for Kespa.
Im actually happy that they stopped negotiating with KeSPA. It was pointless to do it for three years. And I don't fear for the Esports. SC1 will just continue as it does now and SC2 can ba without korea too although i doubt that some other company won't emerge and make sc2 popular in korea
Blizzard is a games developer so how about they stick to that and make the game actually appropriate for professional play (ie. put lan back in and don't show previous games played on bnet ffs) and leave the actual eSports organizing to others. Korea has its whole organization already in place and if Blizzard really believe eSports is going to take off in the rest of the world isn't that enough for them?
edit: also i think some people are just mad at KeSPA for certain other events.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
On April 25 2010 13:51 Jaester88 wrote: There's been a lot of responses in this thread saying that Blizzard has nothing to lose, but I don't think it's as true as most of you believe.
Disregarding the issue of team support, which has already been mentioned already, I feel like KeSPA has at least some leverage in the Korean media, certainly more than Blizzard. I know this is pretty much true for a fact for e-sports media like fomos and dailyesports and such, but it may even extend to the more mainstream media as well. (Actually, let me word it this way. They probably don't have leverage at all in the mainstream media, but in the end, KeSPA is Korean while Blizzard is not.)
If so, they can and will spin this issue so that Blizzard is solely to blame for the negotiation failures, and Koreans are particularly easily influenced by the media, especially if the media spins it in a way that makes them feel like they are being persecuted by a foreign power. (Never do the Koreans stick together stronger than when they feel like they're being persecuted, or when they cheer for a national hero, as was sort of mentioned in the Kim Yun-a thread.)
This could potentially lead to a scenario where a large portion of Koreans just flat-out boycott Blizzard. This would affect not only the e-sports industry, but maybe the sales of SC2, and possibly even the WoW population of Korea as well (which, as I understand it, is not insignificant).
I know this is an unlikely scenario, and I'm probably over-exaggerating, but it's certainly not an implausible scenario, considering what I know about the Korean mentality.
Does KeSPA have more to lose than Blizzard if the worst is to happen? Absolutely. That's pretty much undeniable. KeSPA without SC:BW is nothing, and will crumble instantly. But does Blizzard have nothing to lose? No, at least I don't think so.
Jaester88 knows what he's talking about. Kespa has the power of the Korean government and Korean People. Blizzard can talk about how Kespa violates their intellectual property. But I guarantee you that the Korean courts will back Kespa. Blizzard needs to recognize that and work with Kespa to figure out a solution, even if it means giving up all the esports dollars in Korea, at least they can earn money from game sales. That's the cost of doing business in Asia.
That's not how it works. If the Korean courts will back KeSPA regardless of whether KeSPA is in the right or not, then the Korean courts are corrupt. If the "cost of doing business in Asia" is dealing with corrupt agencies of corrupt governments, then the "cost of doing business in Asia" is too high. Blizzard should take their ball and go home.
On April 25 2010 14:41 Go0g3n wrote: Because the game is not recognized by Kespa, progamers, as owners of the license will be forbidden to play televised (if there will be any) matches, and there in fact will be no StarCraft 2 progamers at all in Korea.
You mean, there will be no SC1 progamers in Korea. KeSPA cannot make people not play SC2 for money unless they're already part of the KeSPA system.
It's all a question of how successful SC2 becomes. KeSPA only exists because of the popularity of SC1. If SC2 becomes very popular, KeSPA could easily be frozen out. What does it matter that you're not a KeSPA-sanctioned pro player when you're able to play at Blizzard-sponsored tournaments for money?
What do you get when you take 495 out of 500 of the worlds best players out of the NFL...? Oh right they did that, it is called the UFL. This is the US national sport and 99% of people will not watch that. Anyone care to list the sponsors of the UFL... right?
On a side note, I really don't think eSports would even work outside of Korea. Professional gaming is still viewed in a pretty negative light...even in Korea its not totally accepted as normal (normal like football and basketball anyway) as far as I know.
Seriously speaking, would any fairly casual gamer go to a stadium to cheer for some pasty, scrawny, spectacle-wearing white guy beat other alpha nerds at a video game? Most of the time proleague is pretty empty and the current MSL has a crazy amount of empty seats in the Ro16 - note that these events are completely free and you don't have to pay cash to watch them live.
The Korean Air OSL is doing far better but the OSL has always been good with generating a large audience and hype. However the viewership of the EVER OSL finals between Flash and Movie just shows that for a video game its amazing but in reality its not a very impressive number at all. Everyone thinking Blizzard can just walk in and push forward eSports must be kidding themselves - the Blizzard sponsored GOMTV Leagues were extremely unimpressive in basically every way except for perhaps the games.
eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image. There really isn't much you can do to change its image but hope everyone who plays the game has the build of Reach and has the charisma of Boxer.
(Not talking about Blizzard or Kespa being greedy/dickheads/dog rapists here)
On April 25 2010 18:20 infinity2k9 wrote: Blizzard is a games developer so how about they stick to that and make the game actually appropriate for professional play (ie. put lan back in and don't show previous games played on bnet ffs) and leave the actual eSports organizing to others.
The fact that you don't like the features or aspects of the game has nothing to do with this situation. The people who want to play the game "professionally" will decide if is appropriate for that or not.
Also, I think it is pretty logical to assume that official/professional tournaments will be played on a local server and not on battle.net. They do this with WoW tournaments already. Which may even be a part of the issue. If you want a professional tournament you are going to need their blessing. Exactly how they seem to want it to be.
It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets.
Are you sure? I know that Kim Jong Il is a puppet ...
KeSPA going under can't happen soon enough. I'm sure they can do their own shitty version of Starcraft, just like they did to Counter-Strike with Sudden Attack.
KeSPA needs to sit down, shut the fuck up, and mind their manners.
KeSPA needs to know that they are dealing with Blizzard; the eternal will of the Starcraft IP, and that KeSPA has been created to serve them. Behold that Blizzard has tried to set them amongst the greatest of their creations, that they might benefit from the wisdom and experience of their maker. Yet KeSPA's purpose is unique. While others carry forth to the innumerable other IPs, they have but one charge entrusted to their care: E-Sports.
On April 25 2010 18:14 RiverD wrote: Let us go for a realllly basic analogy for people who think SC2 will flourish as an E-sport without KeSPA/Korea.
What do you get when you take 495 out of 500 of the worlds best players out of the NFL...? Oh right they did that, it is called the UFL. This is the US national sport and 99% of people will not watch that. Anyone care to list the sponsors of the UFL... right?
So an international community with limited E-Sports grounding or history without any of the games marquee names Flash, Jaedong or Stork etc. Trying to break in against 100's of more popular sports? Prospects seem slim huh.
This is the argument I saw popping up here and there, and let me tell you I do not believe this to be true. Currently looking at the development of foreign & Korean community, it will be likely that both is going to share similar skill levels unlike SC1.
Of course, the very fact that Korean pros get more practice time than average foreign player nullifies my argument also since more practice = better skill, but just wanted to point out this ridiculous misconception going around.
On April 25 2010 18:20 infinity2k9 wrote: Blizzard is a games developer so how about they stick to that and make the game actually appropriate for professional play (ie. put lan back in and don't show previous games played on bnet ffs) and leave the actual eSports organizing to others.
The fact that you don't like the features or aspects of the game has nothing to do with this situation. The people who want to play the game "professionally" will decide if is appropriate for that or not.
Also, I think it is pretty logical to assume that official/professional tournaments will be played on a local server and not on battle.net. They do this with WoW tournaments already. Which may even be a part of the issue. If you want a professional tournament you are going to need their blessing. Exactly how they seem to want it to be.
It does have to do with the situation because it flies in the face of their claims to try and advance eSports when they are deliberately putting features in which make it more difficult. Its not an advantage to anyone except Blizzard. Lets think of an alternate situation where Blizzard just leaves Korea to its own thing... Starcraft 2 will be broadcasted much faster, with the structure already in place and no animosity between Blizzard/Korea. Sure they don't get paid royalties, but they get their brand new game broadcast on TV all the time and it will undoubtedly be more of a success there and result in more sales. Yet instead they decide to alienate them completely ignoring the fact that Brood War competitively is going fine and does not need any interference. If Blizzard cares so much about the advancement of eSports then why exactly are they trying to get in on the single country which already has a completely developed competitive scene?
Also i'm surprised anyone is that excited to get GomTV back considering how sloppy it all was in almost every way.
On topic: I have a somewhat split opinion on this. As far as I know KeSPA are basically representatives of all pro teams put together to regulate the esports scene, so anything KeSPA doesn't agree with basically has all pro teams going with their decision. At the same time, they really are being massive douchebags.
Another thing I want to point out- some of you talk as if Blizzard utterly had no contribution to the development of pro scene. Although I have no personal experience about Starcraft's earlier days, to my knowledge it was the constant patch by Blizzard that turned SC1 into such competitve-wise game. Think about how Blizzard would just release current beta version and stay negligent in fixing notable balance problems, and how much that would damage the pro-scene itself.
On topic: I have a somewhat split opinion on this. As far as I know KeSPA are basically representatives of all pro teams put together to regulate the esports scene, so anything KeSPA doesn't agree with basically has all pro teams going with their decision. At the same time, they really are being massive douchebags.
Whether you liked it or not it existed and it was Blizzard themselves that ruined it because they had the authority on what patch/maps had to be played no matter how imbalanced it was.
I am refering to patch 3.0 and Ring of Valor if you cared although it seems you don't.
The point isn't whether WoW is a valid esport or not it is whether or not Blizzard should be in charge of the SC2 competitive scene. Based on what they have done in the past to their own games and what they are doing now I would say definitely not.
On April 25 2010 18:52 haster27 wrote: Another thing I want to point out- some of you talk as if Blizzard utterly had no contribution to the development of pro scene. Although I have no personal experience about Starcraft's earlier days, to my knowledge it was the constant patch by Blizzard that turned SC1 into such competitve-wise game. Think about how Blizzard would just release current beta version and stay negligent in fixing notable balance problems, and how much that would damage the pro-scene itself.
They fix balance problems not for the benefit of progaming but just for the benefit of the players. I kind of expect game developers to actually support and balance their games i don't think that Blizzard should be applauded for it when it should be done anyway.
Also, as Korean, I can vouch that idea of Korean judicial system being prejudiced is not far-fetched. I mean, even ignoring Korea, there has been numerous instances where the country's government & court system tried their best to keep foreign business from achieving dominance over their own industry. Yes, such prejudice will not matter if the case is clear cut, but if the rules were such simple like that most lawyers would find themselves practically screwed. Laws are open for manipulation and loopholes.
Kespa got themselves into this situation and when all is said and done. It's all about the money. I think we can all agree on that. I don't think that's a bad thing either. Money makes the world go round, as I assure you the farmer growing your meals ain't doing it because he thinks you are a nice guy.
If you throw enough money at something things tend to work, and quite frankly Blizzard can afford to throw around a lot of cash and that alone will get many other companies and teams interested. If it's a choice of who's going to offer more profit I am pretty sure we all know that the winner is Blizzard. They can start the ball rolling and leave kespa high and dry and all it takes is one or two teams decided to say "screw it, Blizzards offering us more cash" and it'll all go down hill for Kespa. Let's face it, Sudden Attack can't carry them.
Next thing, what the hell is with so many "esports only works in korea, esports can't get big in other nations" type posts. This is bloody Team Liquid.net I was under the assumption everyone here wants to foster esports around the globe, not label it as a "niche" thing only good for internet casting and Korea. Take the sport seriously and it'll get treated seriously.
Also stop worrying about who's more evil or more good. If you want to have that kind of morality debate try to do it with something that makes sense. I seriously doubt either the head of Blizzard or Kespa is busy laughing madly while stroking a cat sitting in a underground lair plotting how to rule the world. Like any company they just want to make money.
In the end, Blizzard will come out on top of this simply because South Korea is only one area, and more importantly Kespa's nationalistic pride can't trump the $ sign that blizzard can and seems willing to hand out to get in on the scene.
On April 25 2010 18:52 haster27 wrote: Another thing I want to point out- some of you talk as if Blizzard utterly had no contribution to the development of pro scene. Although I have no personal experience about Starcraft's earlier days, to my knowledge it was the constant patch by Blizzard that turned SC1 into such competitve-wise game. Think about how Blizzard would just release current beta version and stay negligent in fixing notable balance problems, and how much that would damage the pro-scene itself.
They did contribute to Brood Wars success. However, their goal back then had always been to make the game fair and balanced which in turn gave them more sales because the popularity of the game stayed strong. Their goal now seems to be to make more money without any effort on their part.
Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse.
Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible.
Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful.
But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them.
"Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive"
Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
Great post sir i agree on every point you made.
SC can never been threatened by Blizzard in Korea. Only way SC can die if ppl lose interest in it. The real problem is SC2 and Blizzard ask too much from Kespa by eliminating LAN and demanding too much and kespa is just saying that they wont support SC2. The big loser in this is Blizzard because Korea is the only place where there is e-sports right now.
Other than those problems SC2 can never replace SC because SC2 is not exciting for the casual tv viewer ... yes its a new game bla bla but i cant see SC2 going even close to the lvl that SC is. Mostly because of the game engine and hard counter system that just makes the game plain boring. Every battle is blob to blob attack move action and the delicate micro of SC is gone. There is no room for big comebacks so the game is not suitable for e-sports. This is my opinion and i might be wrong so dont bash me pls
Okay- so to my understanding one of the crux of the debate is "is developing a great balanced game that fits the basic standard for successful development of pro-scene enough to guarantee influence over entire formal pro-scene itself?". Right? There is all property debate and all that but those purely concerns the law I have no idea about, and my paraphrase clearly addresses the "moral" aspect of this conflict anyway.
Edit: Either way I am excited because we are observing the significant event that will probably determine the fate of e-gaming itself, for better or worse.
On April 25 2010 18:30 Kwanroller wrote: eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image.
And america will always be a colony of great britain. Disco will never die. Man will never walk on the moon. Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
People saying stuff like this with confidence is always so laughable. Read about the history of... anything.... please.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
Finally, some actual information about the contents of the negotiation. I think I may reserve my judgment before I see more sources stating the same thing, but from the way it's expressed now, it does seem like Blizzard is the one being too greedy.
Particularly, I didn't know Blizzard wasn't supporting LAN use for SC2. That seems like a decision they made essentially solely for the purpose of gaining more leverage on this issue. (I can't think of any other possible reason they would have done that.)
If indeed everything said in that article is true, it does seem unlikely that any organization will back Blizzard in establishing an SC2 e-sports scene in Korea. But again, I'll reserve judgment before I see more sources.
P.S. Milkis is an awesome drink. The only Korean soda I enjoy drinking.
On April 25 2010 18:57 Parnage wrote: Next thing, what the hell is with so many "esports only works in korea, esports can't get big in other nations" type posts. This is bloody Team Liquid.net I was under the assumption everyone here wants to foster esports around the globe, not label it as a "niche" thing only good for internet casting and Korea. Take the sport seriously and it'll get treated seriously.
In the end, Blizzard will come out on top of this simply because South Korea is only one area, and more importantly Kespa's nationalistic pride can't trump the $ sign that blizzard can and seems willing to hand out to get in on the scene.
Frankly, its just being realistic. Can you honestly see it being more than a niche in any other country (besides MAYBE China)?
On April 25 2010 18:30 Kwanroller wrote: eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image.
And america will always be a colony of great britain. Disco will never die. Man will never walk on the moon. Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
People saying stuff like this with confidence is always so laughable. Read about the history of... anything.... please.
On April 25 2010 19:08 Three wrote: Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
God damn it. I hate Mathematics and Physics. What happened that I don't know (learned)?
No one has done it.. yet.
But specifically in the sciences, people throughout history have spoken without any doubt about the impossibility of every single important breakthrough that has ever occured. When electricity was first discovered, critics even said it woud be "of no practical use". Derp.
On April 25 2010 18:30 Kwanroller wrote: eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image.
And america will always be a colony of great britain. Disco will never die. Man will never walk on the moon. Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
People saying stuff like this with confidence is always so laughable. Read about the history of... anything.... please.
Let's be realistic here. If stuff like Orienteering and Ultimate Frisbee (I know its fairly popular) still get people laughing at it, what chance does eSports have?
E-sports existed before KeSPA and they have been nothing but dickheads since they took charge. I'm glad Blizzard are deciding to pull the plug. Sc2 is on the way anyhow.
On April 25 2010 18:30 Kwanroller wrote: eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image.
And america will always be a colony of great britain. Disco will never die. Man will never walk on the moon. Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
People saying stuff like this with confidence is always so laughable. Read about the history of... anything.... please.
Let's be realistic here. If stuff like Orienteering and Ultimate Frisbee (I know its fairly popular) still get people laughing at it, what chance does eSports have?
Who are you to decide the reality of the future? seriously..
If you want to actively work to prevent esports from becoming popular thats your prerogative. Otherwise, what is the point of that pessimism?
Who cares about kespa in sc2? We watched progamers from korea in sc1 because we didn't have any here, but now they are not better. Skill level is everywhere the same and why should we even watch koreans :/ sc2 will be global thing and they won't have monopoly. I don't even care if koreans will play the game or not, there are already a lot of euro/usa tournaments which are great.
On April 25 2010 18:30 Kwanroller wrote: eSports will always be a niche sport due to its image.
And america will always be a colony of great britain. Disco will never die. Man will never walk on the moon. Classical and quantum physics will never be united.
People saying stuff like this with confidence is always so laughable. Read about the history of... anything.... please.
Let's be realistic here. If stuff like Orienteering and Ultimate Frisbee (I know its fairly popular) still get people laughing at it, what chance does eSports have?
Who are you to decide the reality of the future? seriously..
If you want to actively work to prevent esports from becoming popular thats your prerogative. Otherwise, what is the point of that pessimism?
he's just stating his opinion, he's not actively working to prevent esports from becoming popular. and there's always going to be naysayers for everything. if it really is going to become big in the future then it can deal with some skepticism without dying. and it is a valid point, image is a serious obstacle in gaining acceptance
KeSPA are stupid, they keep acting like little kids throwing a tantrum cause they don't get everything their way. They are fighting a losing battle and should just give in to Blizzard.
Blizzard sounds more reasonable, the part of promising alot of their profits on the growth of eSports sounded very nice
Mike Morhaime is one of my childhood heroes. I actually met him not long ago and made a complete ass out of myself. After reading this, fuck yeah Mike Morhaime. Go Mike Morhaime. Show KeSPA who's got the pants.
Seriously, any power drawn away from KeSPA is a win in my book.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
Finally, some actual information about the contents of the negotiation. I think I may reserve my judgment before I see more sources stating the same thing, but from the way it's expressed now, it does seem like Blizzard is the one being too greedy.
Particularly, I didn't know Blizzard wasn't supporting LAN use for SC2. That seems like a decision they made essentially solely for the purpose of gaining more leverage on this issue. (I can't think of any other possible reason they would have done that.)
If indeed everything said in that article is true, it does seem unlikely that any organization will back Blizzard in establishing an SC2 e-sports scene in Korea. But again, I'll reserve judgment before I see more sources.
P.S. Milkis is an awesome drink. The only Korean soda I enjoy drinking.
How is Blizzard being too greedy? The terms say you need Blizzard's permission if you want to run a SC2 broadcast/tourney, and you should pay Blizzard some dough if you want to make money off their product. Depending on the amount of money that might be greedy, but those terms are hardly unreasonable on their own. SC2 tourney's already need Blizzard's permission even in the Beta (think the ZOTAC cup ran into that problem in the first days of beta?). So far Blizzard has proven to be pretty reasonable on allowing people to use their game, admittedly because it's great advertisement for them. But when there's a multimillion dollar industry built on basically the equivalent of broadcasting b.net games on TV then I think Blizzard has every right to say "wait a minute, what exactly are you adding here that makes it so you get all the money off of our product?".
Kespa wasn't formed to make starcraft big, Kespa was formed because starcraft became big. Sure they're part of the reason why SC1 is THAT big in Korea, but they're not contributing anything special. If ESPN starts broadcasting SC2 and it's a huge hit would you say "wow ESPN made SC2 big, they deserve all the money"? No, ESPN only broadcasted SC2 in the first place BECAUSE it would make them money. And Blizzard has every right to ask them for a cut seeing as to how they provided them with the means to make said money.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
Finally, some actual information about the contents of the negotiation. I think I may reserve my judgment before I see more sources stating the same thing, but from the way it's expressed now, it does seem like Blizzard is the one being too greedy.
Particularly, I didn't know Blizzard wasn't supporting LAN use for SC2. That seems like a decision they made essentially solely for the purpose of gaining more leverage on this issue. (I can't think of any other possible reason they would have done that.)
If indeed everything said in that article is true, it does seem unlikely that any organization will back Blizzard in establishing an SC2 e-sports scene in Korea. But again, I'll reserve judgment before I see more sources.
P.S. Milkis is an awesome drink. The only Korean soda I enjoy drinking.
Yonhap: There are high expectations for Starcraft II MM: Very high for us. Not just the multiplayer, but the single player experience is the best we've ever made. The original did so incredibly well in Korea that it will be hard to surpass that, but we are going to break the original's sales records worldwide.
I think blizzard doesn't really care about the competitive nature of the game very much...they are going to make way more money by their sales rather than potential tournaments down the road.
Yonhap: There are high expectations for Starcraft II MM: Very high for us. Not just the multiplayer, but the single player experience is the best we've ever made. The original did so incredibly well in Korea that it will be hard to surpass that, but we are going to break the original's sales records worldwide.
I think blizzard doesn't really care about the competitive nature of the game very much...they are going to make way more money by their sales rather than potential tournaments down the road.
And do you think they would sell so many games without e-sports? I doubt it.
On April 25 2010 19:59 bLah. wrote: Who cares about kespa in sc2? We watched progamers from korea in sc1 because we didn't have any here, but now they are not better. Skill level is everywhere the same and why should we even watch koreans :/ sc2 will be global thing and they won't have monopoly. I don't even care if koreans will play the game or not, there are already a lot of euro/usa tournaments which are great.
I agree with this, its not like Sc1 progamers are going to switch to Sc2 for the next few years anyways, blizzard cutting ties with KeSpa would actually help that process along.
On April 25 2010 18:46 infinity2k9 wrote: Also i'm surprised anyone is that excited to get GomTV back considering how sloppy it all was in almost every way.
That's funny... I got back into watching Starcraft specifically because of GOM. I finally signed up for TL because of GOM. I would ignore pretty much everything else and just watch GOM because it was by far the most interesting... If it weren't for them, my 4+ year hiatus would still be going strong.
If anything, GOM showed that Kespa isn't needed. Yes, the on-screen product would be mildly inferior for the first bit, but the gap between foreign and korean skill will be much smaller this time around... It's not like the koreans are a super gaming race; they just practiced more because they had the incentive to do so.
In my view, most of the current pro-gamers would more or less disappear from the scene for a while, most likely until their current contract with their team/Kespa expired. After that, money & passion talks. You know that the majority of Koreans, including pro-gamers, will try out the game and some will find the game fun. If the money's in SC2, you'll still eventually see some of them in SC2, regardless of what Kespa thinks. Then again, it won't matter if the current pro-gamers eventually show up or not because there will be newer, brighter stars that replace them.
Whoever linked the contents of the negotiations between Kespa and Blizzard hurt their own point more than anything. Everything in there seemed on the up-and-up and pretty standard...
if you make cars and your engine supplier tells you that the terms of the deal are changing, you really dont have much of a choice other than to (a) make the engine in-house, or (b) find another OEM supplier.
Blizzard is supplying the "parts" that Kespa uses to create the end product it delivers to its users. The relationship was analogous to the "codestiny" situation of many large scale manufactuers, much like Delphi and GM, Bosch and German automakers, Intel and PC makers, etc. Both sides NEED to give ground to find a common point in order for business to continue. The only catch is that Blizzard up until now didn't gain any direct profit from supplying kespa with its product (though it surely did capitzalize indirectly through marketing of its brand name, turning it into increased revenue for Wow etc). So while the structure was similar to codestiny, the essence of the interaction wasn't quite so. Honestly, I am not sure how Kespa sees themselves finding another "supplier" in the future... I guess their business is esports, so they can find another video game (which is the product they purchase and then repackage to the consumer) to create a prodcut with...
If blizzard does anything to fuck up the BW scene in korea as it is now I'm gonna hate Blizzard for the rest of my life. However I don't think they will and concerning SC2 I do think this is a good thing, I see great blizzard/gom cooperation for the future, Tasteless is gonna bring us great coverage/casting of korean pros, day9 is gonna be hired by some company to bring us great coverage/casting of top americans/europeans and everythings gonna be perfect!!!! Aaaaaah.
I just wish that korean pro teams stopped defending kespa so hard. It's obvious why SKT does it but I dont get why all other teams do as well.
On April 25 2010 22:13 7mk wrote: If blizzard does anything to fuck up the BW scene in korea as it is now I'm gonna hate Blizzard for the rest of my life. However I don't think they will and concerning SC2 I do think this is a good thing, I see great blizzard/gom cooperation for the future, Tasteless is gonna bring us great coverage/casting of korean pros, day9 is gonna be hired by some company to bring us great coverage/casting of top americans/europeans and everythings gonna be perfect!!!! Aaaaaah.
I just wish that korean pro teams stopped defending kespa so hard. It's obvious why SKT does it but I dont get why all other teams do as well.
On April 25 2010 17:47 igotmyown wrote: It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets. .
Because you're assuming Korean courts will judge equally for both a foreign company and a local company, which is not necessarily the case. Korean courts and the Korean government are inclined to protect their own businesses, not foreign businesses.
Just recently, Taiwan was forced to enforce intellectual property more strictly due to international pressure:
What about the "respected professional judges" in Taiwan? LOL, you are so lost on this issue, it's laughable. You have a poor understanding of how Asian businesses, governments, and their courts work. They will protect themselves first, until they succumb to international pressure.
Once again you're showing you don't understand the distinction between policies and law. Policies guide the law. But once the law is set, you can't blatantly ignore it just because it benefits you. This isn't 1960's korea.
Korean courts are generally protective of IP rights
In general, Korean courts are protective of IP rights, thanks to, inter alia, establishment of the Patent Court, designation of IP panels in certain district courts and the increased number of IP related cases. Comparatively speaking, the ability of an IP-holder to enforce his rights in Korea and the US are relatively similar. Transparent laws govern enforcement rights and proceedings in an impartial manner. Thus, for example, the sudden, arbitrary revocation or suspension of legal rights is not a concern. With regard to the chances of success for a foreign IP-holder, at the least, Korean courts do not show any unreasonable bias against foreign IP-holders compared with courts of other countries.
Korean Copyright Law provides that copyright infringers may be held liable in civil court and even punished in criminal court. In recent years, the Korean prosecution has been vigorous in prosecuting copyright infringers and the court system has been more willing to hand out sizeable monetary damages in the civil court and jail sentences for repeat offenders in criminal courts.
If Blizzard's registered it, has korean legal representation, then a strong case for SC broadcasting being blizzard's intellectual property has a good chance of being upheld by a korean court. Unless of course their legal system is a nationalistic sham and all those laws are BS as you suggest.
It would be nice to know what a knowledgeable korean law expert thinks of this (say the lawyer who runs the korean law blog) as opposed to oversimplified opinions.
It's really beyond me how some posters here would back KeSPA - maybe they haven't followed eSport long enough to know how KeSPA has constantly fucked up eSports themselves in the last few years? KeSPA is not hated for no reason.
Blizzard created SC1 and SC2 and they certainly deserve royalties from broadcasting their games. Saying Blizzard has earned indirectly from SC1 progaming success to defend KeSPA is just plain stupid. Look at how hard KeSPA tried to promote other games - did they get any success? There can be only one Blizzard and Starcraft, but there will be many organisations being capable of what KeSPA did (well maybe except fucking up with refereeing, FA and slavery contracts that what KeSPA masters at lol)
Yonhap: There are high expectations for Starcraft II MM: Very high for us. Not just the multiplayer, but the single player experience is the best we've ever made. The original did so incredibly well in Korea that it will be hard to surpass that, but we are going to break the original's sales records worldwide.
I think blizzard doesn't really care about the competitive nature of the game very much...they are going to make way more money by their sales rather than potential tournaments down the road.
Excuse me? You saying the creator of the best competitive gaming titles in history "doesn't care about the competitive nature of their games very much"?? Have you been following SC2's development at all? Half of the effort Blizzard invested in SC2 is to make it a competitive, esport game.
Hate KeSPA all you want for their terrible decisions and what not, but in the end, they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.
With them out of the picture for SC2, i'm not exactly optimistic about any sort of pro scene for SC2.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
i fail to see how is that an unreasonable terms and condition... duh, its obvious blizz wants to centralised SC2 e-sports scene as a whole, why do u think they're not putting lan support and wtf do u think BNet 2.0 is about? the corporations are using SC as a medium of advertising their own brands, i fail to see the logic that saying paying royalties to blizz as broadcasting fees in unreasonable, its like hiring a model for clothing adverts, and then refuse to pay the model by saying we're making u(the model) famous as well, its absurd!
private servers such as iccup are needed because Bnet 1 structures are pretty ancient, and instead of upgrading an old system they're building an entire new Bnet from the ground up. honestly though i'd prefer tournaments are run privately without any interfering parties, but i trust that blizz as a company that truly respects the community and most of all enthusiastic about their own product would help promote SC2 as an esports further rather than ruining it or run it like some asshats in koreas(hi kespa). i don't agree with blizz on every thing that they were doing like seperating the bnet server into 3 regions, instead of doing it globally... but i don't think blizz is being anywhere near unreasonable here...
I personally agree with Shizuru that the conditions stated by Blizzard are fairly standard business contract stipulations.
Though I completely understand why/how Kespa would not want to give up ground on this issue, I don't see how they really have a basis to cry foul here. They had it WAY easy for 10 years and now they have to operate under standard international business structure. Of course an asian insitution will balk at the proposition at first, but eventually they will find out that fight or flight usually doesn't turn out too well then the opposition holds all the marbles...
On April 25 2010 23:19 Senx wrote: (...) they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.
Sorry but GOD FUCKING DAMN IT one more person says this and my brain is going to explode
- KeSPA did NOT create the pro scene (OGN and MBCGame did, and we all knew how KeSPA literally stole that away from them in the broadcasting right controversy in 2008)
- KeSPA did NOT help SC BW live longer (in contrast, they almost killed it several times with their greedy broadcasting claims, poor refereeing, the Free Agents aka player slavery bullshit, incompetence in dealing with match fixing issues,...)
- KeSPA did NOT represent their players' best interests (hundreds of dedicated professional gamers who spent 10hr a day practicing are the first ones who should say they deserve something from the success of the progaming scene in Korea, but sadly KeSPA is NOT the true representative of them. Creating bullshit things like FA and shutting down GOM clearly showed this)
- KeSPA is NOT the only one that could create eSport in Korea If it only took GOM a short period to host a very decent tournaments with great players, great games, online live broadcast and even English commentary, I'm sure a lot of other organisations in Korea could step up and replace KeSPA at no time. (on the other hand Blizzard is irreplaceable - if KeSPA refuses to believe it then fine, go make something big out of Sudden Attack and some MMOs lol)
It's not clear to me that you actually need Blizzard's permission to organize BW tournaments. I guess it's for the courts to decide.
More importantly the interests of Teamliquid and the community in general are firmly aligned with KeSPA. Blizzard doesn't ask for licensing fees for community tournaments at the moment but there's no guarantee they won't in the future, especially if they plan to develop their own scene.
There are many reasons to hate KeSPA, from their own monopolistic tendencies to their mistreatment of progamers but that doesn't mean every time KeSPA loses we win.
On April 25 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 25 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 25 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:39 hypercube wrote: It's not clear to me that you actually need Blizzard's permission to organize BW tournaments. I guess it's for the courts to decide.
More importantly the interests of Teamliquid and the community in general are firmly aligned with KeSPA. Blizzard doesn't ask for licensing fees for community tournaments at the moment but there's no guarantee they won't in the future, especially if they plan to develop their own scene.
There are many reasons to hate KeSPA, from their own monopolistic tendencies to their mistreatment of progamers but that doesn't mean every time KeSPA loses we win.
Teamliquid isn't televising their tournaments and making millions off advertising, it's quite different.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
On April 25 2010 23:37 thedeadhaji wrote: relating to the post above ^ iirc was there something that forbids players from forming an union?
If such a stipulation exists... guess who is to blame lol (iirc players aren't allowed to have agents right lololol)
Yes iirc due to the mad success of (Starcraft) progaming in 2001-2003, Korean government granted KeSPA a few exclusive rights when they first emerged as the sole governing body of eSport. Sadly (as some well informed TLers have told us), most of the good people at KeSPA back then no longer work in the KeSPA board today.
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
So, companies that seek profits are greedy? Where does that logic come from?
I thought companies sole purpose was to maximize profits. I guess everything I have learned in my business classes are dead wrong. Can you right a textbook or something illustrating the truth so you can inform people in such tough economic times around the globe?
On April 25 2010 14:40 .risingdragoon wrote: People still think kespa's some governing body like the fed or something, and that proteams can operate without them.
Kespa is SKT1, it's Samsung, it's OGN/MBC, it's made up of all these big corps that have sponsored and financed esports all these years and made it possible while Blizzard sold 3+ million copies of SC in S.K. That's why they feel they can't budge. If someone took the paper that you made and did wonderful things with it, wouldn't they lay claim to the creation?
Without these big corporate money and with just Blizz itself funding it SC2 scene would just be pitiful. It'd definitely roll back esports to small lan party tournies unless kespa can find another game for pros to play, or negotiate something that works for both sides.
I'm interested in the terms proposed by Blizzard, and Kespa's counter. But I guess that'd take a long time...
If not Samsung, OGN/MBC, etc then it would be some other big corporation. These corporations are making a lot of money off of Blizzard's product. KeSPA doesn't just regulate esports, they are a giant business. There is a huge fucking conflict of interest when the ones regulating also has a huge hand in the money. GOM is the most obvious example. Conflicted with OGN/MBC league so they shut it down by removing the players. It's not even the players choice.
On April 25 2010 23:19 Senx wrote: Hate KeSPA all you want for their terrible decisions and what not, but in the end, they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.
With them out of the picture for SC2, i'm not exactly optimistic about any sort of pro scene for SC2.
One can still hope though, right?
Today, I'm sure they won't have many problems finding investors who would be willing to establish a new set of SC2 leagues.
Just because Ford made the first affordable cars doesn't mean you have to keep buying them today.
On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote: It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
ROFL, what tournaments? Name one SC2 tournament that pays $40K for first place (nevermind the prize money for 2nd, 3rd place, etc) and has thousands of live fans watching in a huge auditorium with significant media coverage and sponsors.
On April 25 2010 23:49 neVern wrote:So, companies that seek profits are greedy? Where does that logic come from?
I thought companies sole purpose was to maximize profits. I guess everything I have learned in my business classes are dead wrong. Can you right a textbook or something illustrating the truth so you can inform people in such tough economic times around the globe?
Companies belong to people, so they purpose depend on what those people want. You believe that companies are separate beings with they own purpose? How would you define greed then? You can't be greedy when you own a company? All companies are greedy>they aren't greedy becouse all companies are like that, nice circulated logic sir.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.
On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote: It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
ROFL, what tournaments? Name one SC2 tournament that pays $40K for first place (nevermind the prize money for 2nd, 3rd place, etc) and has thousands of live fans watching in a huge auditorium with significant media coverage and sponsors.
THERE ARE NONE.
It's still in beta...
After Quake Live SC2 is by far the biggest beta when it comes to prize money and QL is not really even beta that much because its just an old game and the beta is mostly for the additional functions not gameplay.
SC2 will definitely have tournaments exceeding 40k prize money no matter how badly KESPA/Blizzard clash, there is absolutely no doubt about it. The question is if it can completely kill BW or if they will co-exist.
On April 25 2010 23:49 neVern wrote:So, companies that seek profits are greedy? Where does that logic come from?
I thought companies sole purpose was to maximize profits. I guess everything I have learned in my business classes are dead wrong. Can you right a textbook or something illustrating the truth so you can inform people in such tough economic times around the globe?
Companies belong to people, so they purpose depend on what those people want. You believe that companies are separate beings with they own purpose? How would you define greed then? You can't be greedy when you own a company? All companies are greedy>they aren't greedy becouse all companies are like that, nice circulated logic sir.
Everyone is entitled to the opportunity to make bank by selling a product in a fair manner. It becomes greedy when you circumvent standard business practices and laws to make that happen.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.
Your hypothetical precludes the notion of any kind of alternative organization. Did KeSPA extend the life of BW? Probably. But if KeSPA wasn't around, another group would have likely filled their place. In 2010, I believe that's a certainty.
Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote: Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
seriously? blizzard has a commitment to their stockholders, they can't just say "fuck it" to one of their biggest markets.
not to mention, korea probably WILL be the "hub for RTS" in the future. They have the culture, they have the infrastructure, and they have the sponsors. you know how before the beta everyone was predicting how foreigners would be dominant in the beta? well it turned out to be complete bullshit
lastly, if blizzard wants to centralize e-sports, they will kill it. if blizzard had the same amount of control over sc1, there would be no anti-hack, there would be no bwchart, there would be no iccup, there would be no foreigner scene at all. Nobody wants to fucking pay blizzard royalties or get sued by blizzard, who im sure could afford all the world's best attorneys
edit: btw, stop bashing on kespa. kespa = mbc, ogn, companies that sponsor all the progaming teams, the company that owns shinhan bank. so yeah, without kespa there would be no progaming scene
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.
Your hypothetical precludes the notion of any kind of alternative organization. Did KeSPA extend the life of BW? Probably. But if KeSPA wasn't around, another group would have likely filled their place. In 2010, I believe that's a certainty.
This line of argument doesn't even mean anything. Just about everyone important in the early Korean SC scene either became part of KeSPA or were at the start. I mean, KeSPA was officially created in 2000 and already had rankings out that year, so it's not as if we're talking about extremely recent developments here. It's perfectly reasonable to note that KeSPA has made competitive SC into what it is today, especially given 10 years of Blizzard being nearly completely absent.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long.
On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote: Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
The scene in Beta is not even close to what BW is in Korea. Come back with that statement when you have companies like Korea Air and Samsung backing you up with daily SC show broadcasted on TV. An underground competitive society does not make.
I think blizzard should stick to making games and not manage them. It's clear that all the complexities of their games have risen from other parties. Making games and managing games are very different. And thus far blizzard has shown me nothing close to compare to other organizations in facilitating competitive play. All of their games have been made competitive not by them, but by third parties. They might have a cutesy tourny here and there, but that doesn't make a Korean Proleague or any other proleague.
Blizzard cares too much about making the game easier mechanically and easier to learn, and putting the achievement system and investing so much into the single player is a sign of this. I'm not saying you can't have both, but it's clear they are gearing their game toward a more general, and potentially less competitive audience. It's too tame if Blizzard manages their game in these respects, Blizzard is too "good" in that sense. Its like a government run company versus a privately owned company.
Kespa cares about one thing and one thing only: money. Take a look at how they treat their players. Even the best Starcraft players only earn a fraction of the money that they make for the tv networks and sponsors.
On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote: Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
The scene in Beta is not even close to what BW is in Korea. Come back with that statement when you have companies like Korea Air and Samsung backing you up with daily SC show broadcasted on TV. An underground competitive society does not make.
I think blizzard should stick to making games and not manage them. It's clear that all the complexities of their games have risen from other parties. Making games and managing games are very different. And thus far blizzard has shown me nothing close to compare to other organizations in facilitating competitive play. All of their games have been made competitive not by them, but by third parties. They might have a cutesy tourny here and there, but that doesn't make a Korean Proleague or any other proleague.
Blizzard cares too much about making the game easier mechanically and easier to learn, and putting the achievement system and investing so much into the single player is a sign of this. I'm not saying you can't have both, but it's clear they are gearing their game toward a more general, and potentially less competitive audience. It's too tame if Blizzard manages their game in these respects, Blizzard is too "good" in that sense. Its like a government run company versus a privately owned company.
which top sc2 player is saying that it's too casual and too easy?
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long.
When was kespa formed? It was definitely after BW had had multiple big sponsors. Not sure but Coca Cola I think sponsored before kespa was formed.
Kespa has really nothing to do with BW becoming an esport either, they formed well after it had become professional and there were multiple tv leagues.
this could potentially have a very interesting outcome. SC2 would be run by a new esports association, which would probably be worldwide. This means Koreans wouldn't be the only truely competitive SC scene. It would make for more entertaining tournaments also because you could root for your national hero. I'm not saying that i hate only koreans being the top players, but it would be cool to see a bit of a change.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I agree, its the main reason i have stuck with BW for so long.
When was kespa formed? It was definitely after BW had had multiple big sponsors. Not sure but Coca Cola I think sponsored before kespa was formed.
Kespa has really nothing to do with BW becoming an esport either, they formed well after it had become professional and there were multiple tv leagues.
Do you remeber KPGA Tours from 2001–2003? And do you know that KPGA formerly was the name for KeSPA?
On April 26 2010 01:12 Mohdoo wrote: Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
Korea does matter, and it matters a great enough deal for Blizzard to hire a Korean team to work with them in their own HQ, go read the latest David Kim and the Mike Morheim interview and try understand why Blizzard would go through that much trouble all for the sake of one country. Hint: everything revolves around maximizing profits and sales. Korea matters enough for Blizzard to go through all that investment.
Korea is not just a hub for RTS games, it's the only country to successfully incorporate team sponsorship from the biggest and the most powerful corporations from within the country, allowing e-sport to become a lucrative and well organised, professional industry. This is not happening anywhere else in the world and this will not happen anytime soon in Europe or the USA for various reasons, for example: competitive gaming is still not mainstream enough, or due to lack of lobbying or successful entrepreneurial efforts.
There is no where else in the world where there are so much sponsorships from giant corporations willing to pay teams and gamers that well. The Korean government did help in supporting Korean e-sport during its infant stages too, from what I've read in Boxer's autobiography.
In the end, the best competition and training environment will be where there is the most money, and that place will be Korea for a long time to come.
It's a pretty interesting situation. It's like KeSPA have thrown everything at Blizzard (the adult rating of sc2, GOM etc) to try and show that they are the boss (or atleast, they should be listened to); then Blizzard has just turned around and ended them.
KeSPA has been asking for this kind of result from Blizzard for a while now. I just hope KeSPA don't bring everything down with them in spite. It was always a bit crazy to try and act hardball with the people that could literally take away your sport.
"seriously? blizzard has a commitment to their stockholders, they can't just say "fuck it" to one of their biggest markets. "
Yet what did blizzard get of that marked? apart from the copies sold...im sure they can top that with selling sc2 allready. And blizz got enough money to get another "kespa" working for them in korea...its all about the money. Blizz got it.
Lil sidenote: since this is america, their economcy isnt exactly based on "saving the investor" :p
Can we stop saying "they so greedy lulz, all they want is money"? No fucking shit they want money, they're a business, we all KNOW this already, so stop babbling! That being said, wanting money is not a bad thing. If you want money, you need to do a good job so that people will buy your game. The recent interview however, and I happen to believe it, stated that Blizzard is not after money with SC2, and seriously, why would they? The subscription money they get from WoW makes in a month what SC2 retail sails will make in a year. They are using SC2 to further eSports, and Battle net, SC2 is not about making money, its a means to making money elsewhere.
My two cents, but gee golly I haven't really studied the subject so this might just be guess work, what do you think?
edit: though royalties from televised progaming would make perfect sense.
On April 26 2010 02:45 ohN wrote: I wonder what the disagreement between the companies were. I don't think the interview specifically states that.
briefly; blizzard wants a piece of the progaming pie and kespa doesnt want to move an inch. blizzard attempts to enter the market by partnering with gomtv so kespa kills gomtv korea rates sc2 18+, speculation is that this is because of the influence of kespa blizzard stops fucking around and ceases negotiation and effectively signs kespas death warrant. maybe not immediately but we'll see in a couple of years down the track
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote: Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
Isn't this more analogous to buying some cars, holding televised races, and not paying royalties to the car manufacturers?
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote: Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
That's quite scary actually. Blizzard is saying that they own all user created content in the game. That means they own your replays. If you want to make a fpvod and post it on Youtube, blizzard can remove it by copyright law. It'll also mean no more livestreams. You can also be sued if you're caught torrenting a vod of the game on the TL Tracker.
The point isn't whether WoW is a valid esport or not it is whether or not Blizzard should be in charge of the SC2 competitive scene. Based on what they have done in the past to their own games and what they are doing now I would say definitely not.
I was just kidding, I played WoW "competitively" myself.
Anyway, I think the agenda with WoW and SC2 are completely different. SC2 is completely built around competitive play whereas WoW was so much more successful once they started catering towards ultra bad players.
T.O.P., they might actually give specific permissions in their EULA for the game. It would be a very reasonable thing to do and positive for the adoption of SC2. Although they don't need to do it because people don't keep to the EULA anyway, so they can keep it out of there and use their position to force unwanted content off the net. Maybe they'll be good sports.. *crosses fingers*
do you love blizzard that much that you are blind now ?
i love blizzard game , they make the best game but i hate blizzard ownership and what they do and think at the same time .
why everyone think KESPA make much money ? and why blizzard should get some share ? because they make the game ?
did you guy got anything to back that up for the money part ? yes they got broadcast and some tv channel . but at the same time everything they do are free for the guy who want to watch the game do you think they make that much money ?! and why they got no right for get some money? they are the one who create everything about e-sport in korea .
blizzard do anything for free ? sc2 = 3 game , why not only one ? . just look at blizzard how they ask for 20 euro for get some ingame mount in wow ......
yes kespa are not here only for help the e-sport , they make money doing it or they would never do something like that , and that not only kespa , any sponsor are here for make money , anything in the world are here for make money .
they never did anything aboutkespa for about 10 year .....and starcraft will soon come out and here come blizzard !!!! , they want money , FOR EVERYTHING , tv broadcast , tournament , and event , anything , if people make sc2 keyboard they want money, anything who make you think of starcraft , they want the share . they want money for everything that have anything to do with starcraft game .
you will tell me , that them who make the game so they deserve everything !! just look at any other game or sports , many game creator and company dont ask for money for everything other people do , some game got private server and the game creator want them shut down but many time in the end they do nothing for stop them but blizzard ?
gamei ( private server ) got closed because they asked for money ... and what about wgtour ? right when they become partner they were realy slow to give wgtour the code for anything , took months for anything and in the end wgtour closed too because of pgtour . pgtour got hacked and closed too , im not saying blizzard got anything to do with the last one but the 2 other ? .
and blizzard have never do anything for starcraft e-sport other that fix the game in each patch ( dont forget they do that for ANY GAME they own )
and now they know about e-sport and want all the money ? and you say kespa are the one greedy ? at the same time they look like they know nothing about e-sport , here some quote for the interview : ----------------------------- Our understanding of E-sports is as a community project that increases the enjoyment of the game for the players. It's going to be popular not only in Korea, but worldwide. ----------------------------- are you realy going to say that what E-SPORT suposed to be ? esport in korea = real job . fame , fans and something you can do for a living and alot more. blizzard think that only something for the enjoyment of the game for the players ?! that this kind of e-sport you want for sc2 ? , blizzard will never create team or anything else if they are the one moving the e-sports . they will hold tournament , online probably and give prize money , that the kind of e-sport you want ? right now in sc2 beta they ask for know if you host a ONLINE tournament , and you need to be accepted by them ( real joke ) just some stuft like that should tell you what will realy happen when the game go live.
in fact blizzard are the greedy one , you just need to read what they ask 3-4 page back , in fact doing nothing about korea e sport would only help them for sc2 , but no , THEY WANT money here too and dont care about destroy the e-sport if they cant get the money .
you are realy stupid if you say they got the ip right.... seriously the ip right give you the ok for destroy everything other company and people have done for 10 year and they never stoped them when they started but right now they want all because the new game will come out ?
On April 26 2010 01:37 pheus wrote: Kespa cares about one thing and one thing only: money. Take a look at how they treat their players. Even the best Starcraft players only earn a fraction of the money that they make for the tv networks and sponsors.
Because blizzard is different?
This entire situation is the result of blizzard attempting to legally choke kespa out of the scene that they created and profit from the promotion they've accomplished over the last ten years. From blizzard's perspective, they don't give a shit if ESPORTS gets smaller if the portion they control grows. Given that blizzard is essentially moving to monopolize the entire scene from a position in which they ran a single high profile tournament a year, they really have nothing to lose.
But yeah, keep thinking this is a good for the scene.
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
That's quite scary actually. Blizzard is saying that they own all user created content in the game. That means they own your replays. If you want to make a fpvod and post it on Youtube, blizzard can remove it by copyright law. It'll also mean no more livestreams. You can also be sued if you're caught torrenting a vod of the game on the TL Tracker.
Most of the actions of the community fall under fair use.
Blizzard is entirely within its legal (U.S.) rights to demand royalties on profitable events. They made the engine that outputs artwork for entertainment. Just because players know how to push buttons and click very quickly, this doesn't overshadow the work Blizzard put into this product. Because it generates a new piece of artwork for every game played, no one else has the right to "sell" their engine's capabilities.
Now if you argued that the role of the player in generating the final product rivals that of the developers and artists (that people watch E-sports for the pimp plays, not just for shiny explosions), then you may have yourself a lengthy legal entrenchment to work with. I doubt many courts in the U.S. would align with this interpretation of common-law, but it is up in the air for fudging.
A is better than B No it's not, B is better than A Ya well here's my opinion why A is better than B Your opinion is wrong, B did this, and A did that. Here's some proof I found on the internet, concluding that A is better than B...
All in all, Blizzards game, Blizzards rule, doesn't matter who did what, those are copyright laws(despite how much I hate it). For instance, if there is a law in your state/country that you are not allowed to drive while using a cellphone, you cant make up sort of excuse exclaiming that you are above the law when you are caught. Point is, Blizzard is a greedy company and now everyone can relate to Braveheart.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps.
Also regarding EULAs - They're overall almost always draconian, though most of the time it's not in a company's best interests to act on those provisions unless serious money is at stake. I mean, Blizzard isn't going to try to shut down some random youtuber who is creating SC videos and asking for donations or anything.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps.
it's not ironic at all. kespa did so only because they themselves would benefit from doing so and as far as i know, kespa did not exist for the entire life of the sc progaming scene. i could just as easily say it's ironic that kespa thinks they are the anchor of the sc scene because if it weren't for patch 1.09 sc would still be imbalanced.
On April 26 2010 04:46 QibingZero wrote: Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps.
I was under the impression that this is not even true--that Kespa did not manage Starcraft and ESPORTS in any period of time where it mattered, and that they have not managed anything since their inception that the scene has not been capable of doing without them before. The Korean community is responsible for making SC what it is now, but I don't believe Kespa was necessary for that, nor did they contribute anything to drastically make it better.
Someone more knowledgeable needs to clear this up.
Of course it could be profitable as well, but we're focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects. If we turn a profit, we plan to reinvest a large portion of it to development e-sports even further, in the form of sponsorships, prize money, etc.
^ This quote right there has determined once and for all that all prospects of SC2 becoming a serious ESPORT are dead. Dead and buried.
The community around a sport must first and foremost be a business model. Pringles MSL, Korean Air Winners League. FIFA World Cup brought to you by McDonalds, Snickers, proud sponsor of the Olympics, Pepsi - proud to have our logo on the shirts of the greatest athletes world wide.
Look at todays CS 1.6 scene. What used to be the most promising ESPORT in the West has turned out to be a game enjoyed by many - there are SOOO many followers, players and kids spending TONS of $$$ on ridiculously expensive items such as mousepads, headsets and T-Shirts. But it's the FANS buying stuff with the TEAMNAME on! It should be major corporations fighting over the chance to have their brand associated with these kids idols!
I'll give you one example of product placement. Dole Bananas. The bananas that were collected in the first Super Monkey Ball game (don't know if they still are) carried a Dole brand on them. Now i LITERARY witnessed kids point at Dole bananas specifically in stores and go "Super Monkey Ball bananas!"!
There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre.
I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream.
On April 26 2010 05:07 Thrill wrote: There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre.
I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream.
Sadly, this is becoming increasingly clear.
Pardo's arrognat mockery of LAN users at Blizzcon. Region-locked battle.net Rediculous demands for SC2.
Clearly, Blizzard just wants to cash in, rather than putting forth extra effort and getting momentum for a sustainable e-sports scene.
I don't think kespa is making a lot of money. They have to pay people to commentate, refree, set up, manage, and film these events. And on special events, they even get celebrities to come and perform. Most of their revenue comes from advertisements and selling different merchandise. Coming to a match is free, so I can see kespa not having too much money, so to me, Blizzard seems a bit too greedy.
And I think blizzard would make more money if they allowed kespa to broadcast sc2, because it'll advertise it. If they try to make a progaming scene out of sc2, I think it'll just turn into a minor sport like halo. So I seriously think blizzard should just let kespa do whatever they want.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ?
so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ?
they dont only ask for broadcasting right too .
and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them.
blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ?
and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start .
and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester .
Of course it could be profitable as well, but we're focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects. If we turn a profit, we plan to reinvest a large portion of it to development e-sports even further, in the form of sponsorships, prize money, etc.
^ This quote right there has determined once and for all that all prospects of SC2 becoming a serious ESPORT are dead. Dead and buried.
The community around a sport must first and foremost be a business model. Pringles MSL, Korean Air Winners League. FIFA World Cup brought to you by McDonalds, Snickers, proud sponsor of the Olympics, Pepsi - proud to have our logo on the shirts of the greatest athletes world wide.
Look at todays CS 1.6 scene. What used to be the most promising ESPORT in the West has turned out to be a game enjoyed by many - there are SOOO many followers, players and kids spending TONS of $$$ on ridiculously expensive items such as mousepads, headsets and T-Shirts. But it's the FANS buying stuff with the TEAMNAME on! It should be major corporations fighting over the chance to have their brand associated with these kids idols!
I'll give you one example of product placement. Dole Bananas. The bananas that were collected in the first Super Monkey Ball game (don't know if they still are) carried a Dole brand on them. Now i LITERARY witnessed kids point at Dole bananas specifically in stores and go "Super Monkey Ball bananas!"!
There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre.
I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream.
Non-profit organizations run the same way as for-profit organizations. The only difference is the people that own the organization don't make any money. If their revenue exceeds their costs, then the profit is used to augment the operation -- it doesn't go into the owners' personal bank accounts. This is good for esports cuz Blizzard isn't going to be taking an extra cut for their services. Their services will be provided at-cost. As long as they are efficient and productive, it's a great scenario.
He's saying that Blizzard's interest in controlling the competitive scene is a good sign for the future, not that they are designing sc2 for the pro scene.
Also it doesn't matter what's fair Blizzard has the broadcasting rights for SC2.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ?
so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ?
they dont only ask for broadcasting right too .
and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them.
blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ?
and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start .
and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester .
so you think blizzard built in overlays and hired a korean dude to balance their game just for kicks? they understand it's potential as a spectator sport and are making accommodation to help make it more accessible.
what i'm getting from the first paragraph is that you think blizzards demands are too harsh and that kespa makes no profit from propagating progaming. kespa is not some altruistic organization who make sunshine and rainbows for the progaming scene. they are a company that seeks profit. blizzard is asking for a share of that profit. kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
Uh?
The fact that they didn't accept ActivisionBlizzard's demands (which seem pretty abusive to me, since they demand the ability to ask any amount at any time) doesn't mean they wouldn't accept any demand.
If you were going to invest a lot to make SC2 popular and televised, would you accept that terms? That ActivisionBlizzard, at any moment, can ask for any amount or you'll have to cancel the tournament?
Sincerely, I wouldn't. That would be a very irresponsible action.
kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
Uh?
The fact that they didn't accept ActivisionBlizzard's demands (which seem pretty abusive to me, since they demand the ability to ask any amount at any time) doesn't mean they wouldn't accept any demand.
If you were going to invest a lot to make SC2 popular and televised, would you accept that terms? That ActivisionBlizzard, at any moment, can ask for any amount or you'll have to cancel the tournament?
Sincerely, I wouldn't. That would be a very irresponsible action.
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
my impression my be incorrect due to translating issues but to me it seems like they don't want to be paying any royalties.
This whole thing is so ridiculous. The government of a WTO member state is backing up a organization that is so obviously violating GATT agreements. Respect to Blizzard for trying to negotiate with basically a pirate company for three years and trying to beat the corrupt korean system.
I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
Uh?
The fact that they didn't accept ActivisionBlizzard's demands (which seem pretty abusive to me, since they demand the ability to ask any amount at any time) doesn't mean they wouldn't accept any demand.
If you were going to invest a lot to make SC2 popular and televised, would you accept that terms? That ActivisionBlizzard, at any moment, can ask for any amount or you'll have to cancel the tournament?
Sincerely, I wouldn't. That would be a very irresponsible action.
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
my impression my be incorrect due to translating issues but to me it seems like they don't want to be paying any royalties.
Hm, maybe you misquoted? What you quoted seems exactly what I was talking in my post: ActivisionBlizzard want to decide everything with absolute power.
It's obvious that KeSPA would accept to pay *some* amount. I don't think anyone knows the limit though. But it should be something like "$5000 a year". Not "whatever we want, ask us when you decide to hold a tournament".
In fact, if I'm not mistaken (I read about it here in TL a long ago, would like someone to confirm/deny this) KeSPA paid Blizzard for broadcasting rights over SC1 on Korea.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ?
so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ?
they dont only ask for broadcasting right too .
and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them.
blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ?
and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start .
and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester .
what i'm getting from the first paragraph is that you think blizzards demands are too harsh and that kespa makes no profit from propagating progaming. kespa is not some altruistic organization who make sunshine and rainbows for the progaming scene. they are a company that seeks profit. blizzard is asking for a share of that profit. kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
I doubt Kespa is some organization that makes money. I remember reading that all pro teams, including OGN and MBC make up the Kespa Board of Directors. But the owners of all the pro teams are also the main sponsors of Korean starcraft. So it can be inferred that Kespa is made up of the main sponsors of starcraft.
Kespa does not sell progaming merchandise, they do not sell make money from charging admission to esports events. The sponsors pay for everything because they hope that because kids see their logo so much on tv, they will want to buy a SKT or KTF cell phone, lecaf shoes, CJ snacks, and a Samsung MP3 player.
On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2.
What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered.
Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene.
If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2.
I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils.
the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ?
so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ?
they dont only ask for broadcasting right too .
and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them.
blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ?
and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start .
and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester .
what i'm getting from the first paragraph is that you think blizzards demands are too harsh and that kespa makes no profit from propagating progaming. kespa is not some altruistic organization who make sunshine and rainbows for the progaming scene. they are a company that seeks profit. blizzard is asking for a share of that profit. kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
I doubt Kespa is some organization that makes money. I remember reading that all pro teams, including OGN and MBC make up the Kespa Board of Directors. But the owners of all the pro teams are also the main sponsors of Korean starcraft. So it can be inferred that Kespa is made up of the main sponsors of starcraft.
Kespa does not sell progaming merchandise, they do not sell make money from charging admission to esports events. The sponsors pay for everything because they hope that because kids see their logo so much on tv, they will want to buy a SKT or KTF cell phone, lecaf shoes, CJ snacks, and a Samsung MP3 player.
so basically, kespa does make profit. it just doesn't seem like it because kespa is essentially a dummy corporation.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
Uh?
The fact that they didn't accept ActivisionBlizzard's demands (which seem pretty abusive to me, since they demand the ability to ask any amount at any time) doesn't mean they wouldn't accept any demand.
If you were going to invest a lot to make SC2 popular and televised, would you accept that terms? That ActivisionBlizzard, at any moment, can ask for any amount or you'll have to cancel the tournament?
Sincerely, I wouldn't. That would be a very irresponsible action.
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
my impression my be incorrect due to translating issues but to me it seems like they don't want to be paying any royalties.
That is impossible to say if we don't know the details. How big royalties Blizzard wanted, did they even wanted to define figures or just have a right to take as much as they would like? The terms could be impossible to accept for Kespa for what we know.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
I wouldn't say it will die for sure, but its going to be a big big regression if KESPA does fall. They made eSport into a legit mainstream thing in Korea, whereas in NA/EU its kinda laughed at. Most people when they first started watching proleague must've chuckled at how absurd the whole thing was, but overtime due to how well things were ran it grows on you.
Imagine if Adobe was claiming the rights to everything you create with Photoshop. Wouldn't that be funny. And for all of you claiming that KeSPA is some big evil company, you all just need to watch the South Park episode about Wall Mart. The point is, there is always going to be a company/organization that manages the leagues. You can call it any way you want (maybe Blizzard), it want change anything. KeSPA was never some bully who took over the Korean pro scene from "good guys". It was founded by big sponsors and the teams. Why would KeSPA even need Starcraft II. It has BW. There are tons of RTS games, whose authors would be more than happy to see their game being played professionally in Korea (cause they would sell millions of copies). Starcraft II still has a lot to prove. Why do you all immediately think that Starcraft II is the best RTS ever and the pro scene can not go on without it. Starcraft II Beta is popular only because SC:BW was such a great game. Even if Blizzard and KeSPA could come to an agreement that still doesn't mean Starcraft II would take over the pro scene. More likely it would end up the same way WC3 did. And lastly, SC2 is NOT going to become a professional sport in the US or Europe. There were already games that were extremely popular in the west like Counter Strike, or for example Dota now. But that is still light years away form pro gaming scene. All of you that do not care about SC:BW pro scene in Korea... then why are you here (on TL.net).
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
what about europe where many players in other games make 50k+ a year in salary? ever heard of sk or fnatic or mym or mouz? hell eg 1.6 players make a decent salary in the US.
On April 26 2010 06:50 nimoraca wrote: Imagine if Adobe was claiming the rights to everything you create with Photoshop. Wouldn't that be funny.
There's a difference between things that are explicitly outlined in the ToS/EULA, and things that aren't. There's also a difference between Adobe claiming rights to everything you create with Photoshop, and Blizzard claiming rights from an organization that's using their software for profit.
On April 26 2010 06:50 nimoraca wrote: And for all of you claiming that KeSPA is some big evil company, you all just need to watch the South Park episode about Wall Mart. The point is, there is always going to be a company/organization that manages the leagues. You can call it any way you want (maybe Blizzard), it want change anything. KeSPA was never some bully who took over the Korean pro scene from "good guys". It was founded by big sponsors and the teams.
The Starcraft scene was founded by teams both sponsored and unsponsored, and broadcasting companies like OGN and MBC. KeSPA has shown very clearly in the past that they do not care about the well-being of either of those organizations. The free agency scandal displayed a lack of interest in the players' well being, and the selling broadcast rights fiasco displayed a lack of respect for the broadcasting companies.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
On April 26 2010 06:50 nimoraca wrote: Imagine if Adobe was claiming the rights to everything you create with Photoshop. Wouldn't that be funny.
There's a difference between things that are explicitly outlined in the ToS/EULA, and things that aren't. There's also a difference between Adobe claiming rights to everything you create with Photoshop, and Blizzard claiming rights from an organization that's using their software for profit.
On April 26 2010 06:50 nimoraca wrote: And for all of you claiming that KeSPA is some big evil company, you all just need to watch the South Park episode about Wall Mart. The point is, there is always going to be a company/organization that manages the leagues. You can call it any way you want (maybe Blizzard), it want change anything. KeSPA was never some bully who took over the Korean pro scene from "good guys". It was founded by big sponsors and the teams.
The Starcraft scene was founded by teams both sponsored and unsponsored, and broadcasting companies like OGN and MBC. KeSPA has shown very clearly in the past that they do not care about the well-being of either of those organizations. The free agency scandal displayed a lack of interest in the players' well being, and the selling broadcast rights fiasco displayed a lack of respect for the broadcasting companies.
Hollywood studios are using Photoshop for profit. People don't come to the matches to watch starcraft. They come to watch their favorite players and teams. I personally am here (on TL.net) to watch Korean progamers, not the game itself. The game is not the content here. The matches are.
The other point, about KeSPA not caring about well-being of the players, well guess what, its the teams not caring about their players, not KeSPA. KeSPA is just an organization supported by all the pro teams.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
What I really wanted to say is, IF Adobe was requesting such a thing in their EULA, no one would ever use Photoshop to create something of commercial value. That is the same thing that will happen to SC2 if Blizzard doesn't back off. Who would even think about organizing a league, paying the players, bringing the sponsors, bringing the spectators, paying Blizzard. taking all the risks and in the end, not being the owner of the games played.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.
In your last post your wording is bad too. The Association has a long history with many achievements and also failures — there is no “the Association in theory” and no “the Association in effect”.
On April 26 2010 07:28 nimoraca wrote: What I really wanted to say is, IF Adobe was requesting such a thing in their EULA, no one would ever use Photoshop to create something of commercial value. That is the same thing that will happen to SC2 if Blizzard doesn't back off. Who would even think about organizing a league, paying the players, bringing the sponsors, bringing the spectators, paying Blizzard. taking all the risks and in the end, not being the owner of the games played.
This exactly, Blizzard wants the money from esports but they want someone else (KeSPA/OGN/MBC) to take the risks associated. If Blizzard wants money from esports and wants esports to be a success then fine, why don't they organise it instead? What Blizzard wants is a zero risk gamble at making a huge amount of money. If KeSPA signs the contracts and starts organising SC2 leagues then SC2 flops they will lose huge amounts of money whereas Blizzard loses nothing. If SC2 is a success they will make heaps of money from royalties for doing nothing to help.
Blizzard's terms are a complete trap.
Although there seems to be a lot of hate towards KeSPA on TL (mostly for good reason but some unfounded) people have to see that it is Blizzard in the wrong and it is Blizzard being greedy in this case. Kespa won't agree to ridiculous terms that are designed to screw them over. I don't think any organisation would if they were in the same position.
No one else has the power to stand up to Blizzard being unreasonable so we should be glad that KeSPA are.
On April 26 2010 07:28 nimoraca wrote: What I really wanted to say is, IF Adobe was requesting such a thing in their EULA, no one would ever use Photoshop to create something of commercial value. That is the same thing that will happen to SC2 if Blizzard doesn't back off. Who would even think about organizing a league, paying the players, bringing the sponsors, bringing the spectators, paying Blizzard. taking all the risks and in the end, not being the owner of the games played.
This exactly, Blizzard wants the money from esports but they want someone else (KeSPA/OGN/MBC) to take the risks associated. If Blizzard wants money from esports and wants esports to be a success then fine, why don't they organise it instead? What Blizzard wants is a zero risk gamble at making a huge amount of money. If KeSPA signs the contracts and starts organising SC2 leagues then SC2 flops they will lose huge amounts of money whereas Blizzard loses nothing. If SC2 is a success they will make heaps of money from royalties for doing nothing to help.
But this is the same as a TV show or movie using licensed music in their show. Even if the TV show flops at the ratings, they still have to pay the record companies for use of their music.
If you think of SC as simply a tool like Adobe Photoshop, that would be different, but I'm not sure that you can. For the Photoshop example, you only see the end product, which has no direct connection to Photoshop itself, and could've been created with any other editing program. I think that if a movie ACTUALLY showed a guy using Adobe Photoshop on their computer and editing photos with it, they'd still have to pay Adobe for using their trademark.
On April 26 2010 08:08 teamsolid wrote: But this is the same as a TV show or movie using licensed music in their show. Even if the TV show flops at the ratings, they still have to pay the record companies for use of their music.
If you think of SC as simply a tool like Adobe Photoshop, that would be different, but I'm not sure that you can. For the Photoshop example, you only see the end product, which has no direct connection to Photoshop itself, and could've been created with any other editing program. I think that if a movie ACTUALLY showed a guy using Adobe Photoshop on their computer and editing photos with it, they'd still have to pay Adobe for using their trademark.
I sort of get what you mean but that is called product placement and companies pay millions of dollars for their product to be seen being used in movies because it encourages people to buy that product. That is exactly what happens with Starcraft but Blizzard gets it for free. Now they decide they want more money (not just from the extra product sales). They are just being far too greedy.
On April 26 2010 08:08 teamsolid wrote: I think that if a movie ACTUALLY showed a guy using Adobe Photoshop on their computer and editing photos with it, they'd still have to pay Adobe for using their trademark.
"If SC2 is a success they will make heaps of money from royalties for doing nothing to help."
They've built the game, if it's being used(Shown even) to make heaps of money(And sc1 is, a royalties wouldn't actually kill Kespa's profit.) they are entitled to a part of it if they want it. Makes sense, no?
Oh wait, Teamsolid already said that... I feel repetitive now, but I'll post anyway.
"I think that if a movie ACTUALLY showed a guy using Adobe Photoshop on their computer and editing photos with it, they'd still have to pay Adobe for using their trademark."
Yeap, they would have to, profiting from a work of art made with a tool is not the same as showing the tool a profiting from it.
wouldnt the american military have to attack south korea and stop them from running tournaments if the korean government refused to force the tournaments to cease?
Sounds similar to private medicine care in the United States up until now. Ultimately its the people that suffer, while Blizzard continues to feed their wallets.
On April 26 2010 08:38 roymarthyup wrote: how can blizzard "stop" korean esports?
wouldnt the american military have to attack south korea and stop them from running tournaments if the korean government refused to force the tournaments to cease?
Oh God yes, please take down North Korea also in one big swoop too.
On more serious note, there are intellectual copyright debacle and basically KeSPA's inability to host SC2 tournaments will generally damage fledging SC1 industry as well.
Blizzard's already alienating every person on the planet who has a slow connection with it's no LAN option (see all of China), and now wants to claim a piece of the bw scene in Korea that it didn't create...
This is like shooting yourself in the foot, big mistake.
All this is going to do is motivate people even more to pirate SC2. How many lost dollars is that going to be??
On April 26 2010 08:37 Auronz wrote: They've built the game, if it's being used(Shown even) to make heaps of money(And sc1 is, a royalties wouldn't actually kill Kespa's profit.) they are entitled to a part of it if they want it. Makes sense, no?
They made money from selling the game. In regards to royalties from televised matches I would say they are not entitled to a part of what they did not help create. So no, it doesn't make sense. Especially when (afaik) KeSPA does not make all that much money. The sponsers do when people buy their products after seeing their team win, the same way Blizzard makes money when people see Starcraft being played by pros and they think hey I want to do that too.
All this rubbish about royalties will only hurt Starcraft which is sad.
This together with the useless ladder system has killed alot of my interest in the SCII esports game. I hope some russians wake up and make another TheAbyss.
Yeah I just don't understand the point of divisions and the fact the ladder is not global... is it to make people feel good about being 3rd in random platinum division #27 rather than 3074th in the world? So many decisions just make no sense to me...
K, here's the deal right. If you want ESPORTS to be a small quirky section of the community aspect of a game - you do what Blizz does.
A pretty good example is WoW. Several million players who are involved in competitive arena play. The interest-group is clearly there. The money is clearly there. So - with Blizzard at the wheel, what do they do? They charge a HUGE fee for hosting tournaments which has caused MLG to buckle and ESL to severely cut down their WoW coverage. The WoW stream of the MLG events was by far the most watched and most popular but Blizz was all like "we'll do this our way".
If this localized ladder bullshit sounds familiar - it's because it is. Sure there were no divisions on the WoW tournament realms, but it was the exact same format - online ladder, localized lan qualifiers, finals at Blizzcon. In Blizzards mind - that's EXACTLY where they want ESPORTS to be at. I think the proceeds from the ladder fees alone covered the cash prizes by far and Blizzcon basically pays for itself since demand for tickets outweighs supply.
Let's face it - in an ideal world, Blizzard would pour money into competitive play rather than into maintaining servers for casuals to play their few weekly games. In this world - the real one, Blizzard is not what ESPORTs need at the wheel. As a game developer, Blizz does fine - but in order to inspire growth of the ESPORT scene - we need some greedy men in suits with old-money connections and a proper business degree.
Blizzard wants to keep ESPORTs around as a self-promotion tool, a toothless pet dog that wags its tail every now and then and shows the world that their games are actually connecting people in RL. The most we can hope for is a GOM TV season like 'The Named' featuring StarCraft II instead of WoW which a few thousand foreigners will loyally watch. Korea won't care - for them it will be like coming from a World Cup final to bushleague.
Blizzard may be a game developer, but they sure aren't a community developer. Battle.net 2.0? More like DivideTheWorldIntoManagableSlices 2.0. In this case i'll have to side with Gordon Gekko - "Greed is Good.". However when greed turns into a controlling monopoly - everything just goes straight into the drain.
I don't know which to support, KeSPA or Blizzard. It feels like KeSPA is the lesser of two evils tho, and it also feels like there's the money aspect as always holding e-sports back.
Its extreamly delicate issue. Without korean bw scene, starcraft would died out long time ago and there wouldnt have been as much hype for sc2 as it is. I understand that blizzard wants the rights to their own product, but it just feels like the blizzard who made starcraft 1 is gone. The ones who goes after kespa now is high on WoW money and just want more, and dont care if starcraft would been forgotten many years ago if it had not been for korean scene.
On April 26 2010 07:28 nimoraca wrote: What I really wanted to say is, IF Adobe was requesting such a thing in their EULA, no one would ever use Photoshop to create something of commercial value. That is the same thing that will happen to SC2 if Blizzard doesn't back off. Who would even think about organizing a league, paying the players, bringing the sponsors, bringing the spectators, paying Blizzard. taking all the risks and in the end, not being the owner of the games played.
This exactly, Blizzard wants the money from esports but they want someone else (KeSPA/OGN/MBC) to take the risks associated. If Blizzard wants money from esports and wants esports to be a success then fine, why don't they organise it instead? What Blizzard wants is a zero risk gamble at making a huge amount of money. If KeSPA signs the contracts and starts organising SC2 leagues then SC2 flops they will lose huge amounts of money whereas Blizzard loses nothing. If SC2 is a success they will make heaps of money from royalties for doing nothing to help.
Blizzard's terms are a complete trap.
Although there seems to be a lot of hate towards KeSPA on TL (mostly for good reason but some unfounded) people have to see that it is Blizzard in the wrong and it is Blizzard being greedy in this case. Kespa won't agree to ridiculous terms that are designed to screw them over. I don't think any organisation would if they were in the same position.
No one else has the power to stand up to Blizzard being unreasonable so we should be glad that KeSPA are.
with the amount of efforts/resources they've put into the development of the game, yea they have every right to decide what their intellectual property will be used for, no one really knew how much royalty fees would blizz actually charge, i don't know where u guys get the idea of evil blizzard will demand HUGE amount of cash for people to organise a tournaments. will u actually explain y the hell is the term offered by blizzard to kespa anywhere near unreasonable?
i wonder if u bunch of people that calls blizzard "greedy" actually knows blizzard, the game isn't even OUT yet, of course they aren't organising any tournaments for SC2 YET, they have made it pretty clear that they will push SC2 towards a golbal E-Sports development...
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.
In your last post your wording is bad too. The Association has a long history with many achievements and also failures — there is no “the Association in theory” and no “the Association in effect”.
No, in theory they would KPGA and KeSPA are the same organization since the founding. In effect, early KPGA was a small organization that lent its name to gembc/mbcgame who was looking for a name to lend itself legitimacy, although it did perform the function of handing out progaming licenses from that early date. KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom is the organization that started pro-league and represented the team owner's interests almost exclusively, while trying to sell OGN and MBCGame the rights to broadcast their own product.
Whatever, the semantics don't interest me as long as you seem to get my point.
On April 26 2010 09:49 Thrill wrote: K, here's the deal right. If you want ESPORTS to be a small quirky section of the community aspect of a game - you do what Blizz does.
A pretty good example is WoW. Several million players who are involved in competitive arena play. The interest-group is clearly there. The money is clearly there. So - with Blizzard at the wheel, what do they do? They charge a HUGE fee for hosting tournaments which has caused MLG to buckle and ESL to severely cut down their WoW coverage. The WoW stream of the MLG events was by far the most watched and most popular but Blizz was all like "we'll do this our way".
If this localized ladder bullshit sounds familiar - it's because it is. Sure there were no divisions on the WoW tournament realms, but it was the exact same format - online ladder, localized lan qualifiers, finals at Blizzcon. In Blizzards mind - that's EXACTLY where they want ESPORTS to be at. I think the proceeds from the ladder fees alone covered the cash prizes by far and Blizzcon basically pays for itself since demand for tickets outweighs supply.
Let's face it - in an ideal world, Blizzard would pour money into competitive play rather than into maintaining servers for casuals to play their few weekly games. In this world - the real one, Blizzard is not what ESPORTs need at the wheel. As a game developer, Blizz does fine - but in order to inspire growth of the ESPORT scene - we need some greedy men in suits with old-money connections and a proper business degree.
Blizzard wants to keep ESPORTs around as a self-promotion tool, a toothless pet dog that wags its tail every now and then and shows the world that their games are actually connecting people in RL. The most we can hope for is a GOM TV season like 'The Named' featuring StarCraft II instead of WoW which a few thousand foreigners will loyally watch. Korea won't care - for them it will be like coming from a World Cup final to bushleague.
Blizzard may be a game developer, but they sure aren't a community developer. Battle.net 2.0? More like DivideTheWorldIntoManagableSlices 2.0. In this case i'll have to side with Gordon Gekko - "Greed is Good.". However when greed turns into a controlling monopoly - everything just goes straight into the drain.
Blizzard is completely within their rights in creating the conditions under which their product is used, but that in no way means KeSPA should accept terms that aren't viable to their operations. If Blizzard is asking for a return on matches produced on their IP, you can't deny them the right, even if it's not in the interest of the viewer, as secondary parties will be deterred having to go through Blizzard and their currently unknown but potentially deterring conditions.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.
In your last post your wording is bad too. The Association has a long history with many achievements and also failures — there is no “the Association in theory” and no “the Association in effect”.
No, in theory they would KPGA and KeSPA are the same organization since the founding. In effect, early KPGA was a small organization that lent its name to gembc/mbcgame who was looking for a name to lend itself legitimacy, although it did perform the function of handing out progaming licenses from that early date. KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom is the organization that started pro-league and represented the team owner's interests almost exclusively, while trying to sell OGN and MBCGame the rights to broadcast their own product.
Whatever, the semantics don't interest me as long as you seem to get my point.
I get your point — you cannot treat a long KPGA/KeSPA history properly and that’s why you use wrong data, terms, words, etc. E.g. you wrote “KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom… the rights to broadcast their own product” — that passing was in 2008, the broadcasting rights incindent was in early 2007, the united under KeSPA Proleague started in 2005 (SKY Proleague 2005 Round 1). The history of KeSPA is more complicated than your description of it.
On April 26 2010 10:29 Pekkz wrote: Its extreamly delicate issue. Without korean bw scene, starcraft would died out long time ago and there wouldnt have been as much hype for sc2 as it is.
Outside of korea, how much hype do you think can actually be attributed to the pro scene? most of the hype has come from gaming magazines/websites based on the quality and popularity of the wow, diablo and starcraft series. I really think the pro scene only represents a small fraction of blizzard's overall hype. Pro scene schmo scene, I know when I heard sc2 announced I was excited because of how awesome blizzard's other games have been, and I think this would have been true for most people.
Even without the pro scene blizzard games have all been popular in korea, I think there still would be a lot of hype for sc2 in korea. Arguably, without this 18+ bullshit and KeSPA scandals and whatever else goes down sc2 might have been better off in korea without the pro scene.
On April 26 2010 09:11 vek wrote: Yeah I just don't understand the point of divisions and the fact the ladder is not global... is it to make people feel good about being 3rd in random platinum division #27 rather than 3074th in the world? So many decisions just make no sense to me...
I'll join you in hoping for iCCup 2.0 =D
If you look at day9's blizzard HQ visit they said that the people at the top of platinum will be able to see their global ranking.
I kind of agree with their approach to other divisions though. Is it really useful for a guy in gold division to see that hes #55,032, or that he is approximately half way up the ladder of his gold division? Are the divisions comparable? is half way up gold ladder in gold#3 similar to half way up the ladder in gold #7? I think that's important to think about too.
KeSpa is only being that way to monopolize the entertainment industry. Giving blizzard incentives would decrease their revenue and greatly affect the economy in that a % of their money pool is going out of the country.
Though I agree that KeSpA needs to acknowledge Blizzard in order to globalize e-Sports.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
@nonduc: Waxangel is one of the most knowledgeable of the Korean progaming scene here, so no offence to you but please carefully read his post again, or perhaps print it out and stick it on your wall - cos I don't think you get his points (which are FACTS that everyone needs to know before having an opinion on this KeSPA v Blizzard issue).
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
what about europe where many players in other games make 50k+ a year in salary? ever heard of sk or fnatic or mym or mouz? hell eg 1.6 players make a decent salary in the US.
well first off i'm talking about starcraft and second, I have heard of them but it's not even comparable. True, there is a very small niche where you can make money from e-sports outside of korea but it's not a marketable business.
Where are the huge company sponsored teams? Where are the mym toothpaste commercials? Where is the official fnatic credit card? Why isn't the new up and coming pop group performing at the 200,000+ LIVE audience at the finals?
The progaming scene outside of korea is chump change. It's not large enough to command any influence or respect from big corporations.
Also, you have to realize, Korea is THE largest progamming scene in the world. If they go down, every single sponsor for any e-sports in the future will always think "oh hey, remember in korea? this e-sports thing was getting pretty big man, but in the end, it still failed. Maybe we should reconsider sponsoring progamming"
Seriously, if you "don't give two shits about the pro scene in korea", then go visit some other site. TL is NOT the place for you
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
what about europe where many players in other games make 50k+ a year in salary? ever heard of sk or fnatic or mym or mouz? hell eg 1.6 players make a decent salary in the US.
You really don't want to bring Counter-Strike into this. CS has huge problems with money, with players being cheated out of winnings by organisations and tournaments. If anything the CS scene shows what happens when you don't have a body like KeSPA to regulate.
On April 25 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: This is PERFECT for a fairly casual player such as myself who doesn't give two shits about the pro scene in Korea. Kespa acted unreasonably and Blizzard responded in the way they should have - by pulling out completely.
We'll end up with more English language tournaments and commentating. Sounds great to me.
What are you, stupid? I keep checking your post count and expect it to be 1 or something.. What on earth have you been posting about all this time?
the pro scene in Korea IS the starcraft scene. They are the pillar that all foreign scenes lean on. The moment you pull out the Korean scene, everything will collapse. Korea is the ONLY place where starcraft and e-sports was/is a legit enterprise. If they, as the precedent, fail, then i guarantee e-sports will fail.
what about europe where many players in other games make 50k+ a year in salary? ever heard of sk or fnatic or mym or mouz? hell eg 1.6 players make a decent salary in the US.
You really don't want to bring Counter-Strike into this. CS has huge problems with money, with players being cheated out of winnings by organisations and tournaments. If anything the CS scene shows what happens when you don't have a body like KeSPA to regulate.
more importantly when you pan the camera over the crowd, americans won't hide their faces while at the same time trying to display a message.
if we don't have that then what's the point of even watching esports?
KeSPA is just fucking themselves over. They could be making themselves a powerful ally to Blizzard, but instead they refuse to cooperate with the makers of the game they've been banking off of for years. If Blizzard and KeSPA worked together, E-sports in general could flourish and grow a lot better. But KeSPA cares more about $little green pieces of paper$ more than they care about E-Sports.
Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA to make SC2 big. It would definitely help things develop better in the Korean scene, but KeSPA doesn't seem to accept the fact that they aren't critical to SC2 being successful. Whether KeSPA likes it or not, Koreans WILL play StarCraft 2, there WILL be tournaments, and people WILL make money off these tournaments.
It's too bad, KeSPA really could have used a deal with Blizz to make their reputation better.
On second thought. Blizzard also doesn't really care about E-Sports. It's just all about money in general. Blizzard's definitely going to make money off SC2, but not as much as if this deal had gone through.
I agree that KeSPA has help organize BW and made it into the competitive scene in Korea that it is today, their greed helped in the organization. Blizzard wants to run things their own way. KeSPA doesn't want to be fucked over and forced into a situation where, if SCII doesn't catch on, KeSPA gets screwed royally while Blizzard just whistles contently and hosts their own tournaments.
By a business perspective KeSPA is doing the right thing, but if both companies are going to demand being in charge, it just wont work. I hope blizzard is able to find another partner, but I also hope they don't destroy the BW scene as I love it dearly, and hope it continues even while SCII is hot.
On April 26 2010 09:49 Thrill wrote: K, here's the deal right. If you want ESPORTS to be a small quirky section of the community aspect of a game - you do what Blizz does.
A pretty good example is WoW. Several million players who are involved in competitive arena play. The interest-group is clearly there. The money is clearly there. So - with Blizzard at the wheel, what do they do? They charge a HUGE fee for hosting tournaments which has caused MLG to buckle and ESL to severely cut down their WoW coverage. The WoW stream of the MLG events was by far the most watched and most popular but Blizz was all like "we'll do this our way".
If this localized ladder bullshit sounds familiar - it's because it is. Sure there were no divisions on the WoW tournament realms, but it was the exact same format - online ladder, localized lan qualifiers, finals at Blizzcon. In Blizzards mind - that's EXACTLY where they want ESPORTS to be at. I think the proceeds from the ladder fees alone covered the cash prizes by far and Blizzcon basically pays for itself since demand for tickets outweighs supply.
Let's face it - in an ideal world, Blizzard would pour money into competitive play rather than into maintaining servers for casuals to play their few weekly games. In this world - the real one, Blizzard is not what ESPORTs need at the wheel. As a game developer, Blizz does fine - but in order to inspire growth of the ESPORT scene - we need some greedy men in suits with old-money connections and a proper business degree.
Blizzard wants to keep ESPORTs around as a self-promotion tool, a toothless pet dog that wags its tail every now and then and shows the world that their games are actually connecting people in RL. The most we can hope for is a GOM TV season like 'The Named' featuring StarCraft II instead of WoW which a few thousand foreigners will loyally watch. Korea won't care - for them it will be like coming from a World Cup final to bushleague.
Blizzard may be a game developer, but they sure aren't a community developer. Battle.net 2.0? More like DivideTheWorldIntoManagableSlices 2.0. In this case i'll have to side with Gordon Gekko - "Greed is Good.". However when greed turns into a controlling monopoly - everything just goes straight into the drain.
So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Nobody really knows, that's part of the problem. Actually going to court would be a huge risk for either side which is why we are seeing all these petty maneuvers like giving out free betas vs making SC2 18+ rated.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Nobody really knows, that's part of the problem. Actually going to court would be a huge risk for either side which is why we are seeing all these petty maneuvers like giving out free betas vs making SC2 18+ rated.
the thing is that they wont allow any 3rd part company to make profits of their game.
Blizzard throwin down the gauntlet, Kespa's finally has to give a little or lose alot, oh happy day! Honestly though, theres a whole plethora of things Kespa could do better, needless to say, we wouldn't have such a strong korean bw scene if not for them but hopefully Blizz can pull some strings..
This is looking pretty bad imo. The one thing sc2 had that separated it from other modern rts' games was the fact that it looked like it was going to have a long established pro-gaming scene with plenty of viewers, sponsors and organisation already in place, due to it's preceder. If kespa goes down I don't really see sc2 making it as an esport, or at least not to a bigger extent than, say, wc3.
On April 26 2010 14:54 hifriend wrote: This is looking pretty bad imo. The one thing sc2 had that separated it from other modern rts' games was the fact that it looked like it was going to have a long established pro-gaming scene with plenty of viewers, sponsors and organisation already in place, due to it's preceder. If kespa goes down I don't really see sc2 making it as an esport, or at least not to a bigger extent than, say, wc3.
That's ridiculous, even if this dispute between KeSPA and Blizzard leaves absolutely no progaming infrastructure intact in Korea (imagine GOM disappears somehow, or something) there will still be an abundance of SC fans and players looking for entertainment / work.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
This wouldn't work, as it is probably forbidden in the TOS itself, and since you're hacking it, you're doing it with the intent of denying the TOS, which means it is clear that you know what you're circumventing there.
Anyways, I don't see why so many people seem to not get their facts right and say Blizzard has nothing on KeSPA, or KeSPA is doing everything right. I'm as much an eSports-Fan as you guys here, and of course I hope for SC2 to broaden the scene further, and not to cripple it due to the KeSPA/Blizzard IP conflicts, but the facts are pretty clear to me:
Blizzard made the game, they can put ANYTHING in their TOS/EULA and you can't do shit about it. They could write down that you have to jump around 10 times before using the game and it would be legally their right to demand a proof from you that you did so. You don't have to buy the thing if you don't want to follow the rules bound to its usage. Of course they can demand all the things they are actually demanding from KeSPA right now (regarding SC2, not sure what the situation with SC is), and I'm sure their lawyers will be making the TOS/EULA very secure in those terms, so that they can do terrible, terrible damage to KeSPA, should they not abide by Blizzards given terms.
So I can only see those of you backing KeSPA's point that it's because you love eSports and see it go down the drain if Blizzard gets what is legally theirs.
Of course I hope the conflict resolves to the better for eSports, and that in a year we'll all be happily rooting for someone winning the upcoming SC2 birthday tournament, but if things don't go well, I am pretty sure Blizzard is very much able to kill KeSPA in regards to SC2, and propably to SC1 too, since I would bet that the EULA/TOS for SC holds pretty much the same claims of right that the EULA/TOS for SC2 will.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
In the US, I think the DMCA prohibits reverse-engineering of software for something like this, but I'm not sure if there's an equivalent to the DMCA in Korea.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
This wouldn't work, as it is probably forbidden in the TOS itself, and since you're hacking it, you're doing it with the intent of denying the TOS, which means it is clear that you know what you're circumventing there.
Technically it doesn't matter what is says or forbids if you never agree to it.
I think Blizzard just needs to give up on SCBW and accept that they have no rights to restrict its use in esports. They need to put the proper provisions in the TOS for SC2 from the beginning and just move forward with that. The only problem is they will have to compete with SCBW for sponsors, viewers, etc.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
Blizzard made the game, they can put ANYTHING in their TOS/EULA and you can't do shit about it. They could write down that you have to jump around 10 times before using the game and it would be legally their right to demand a proof from you that you did so. You don't have to buy the thing if you don't want to follow the rules bound to its usage. Of course they can demand all the things they are actually demanding from KeSPA right now (regarding SC2, not sure what the situation with SC is), and I'm sure their lawyers will be making the TOS/EULA very secure in those terms, so that they can do terrible, terrible damage to KeSPA, should they not abide by Blizzards given terms.
From Wikipedia: Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C.
2nd thing is that US law is not applicable in Korea. Just cause some action might infringe on the intellectual property of one country doesn't mean it would infringe on the intellectual property of another country. Korean courts could decide that user generated content does not belong to blizzard so the really doesn't matter eula doesn't matter.
Zatic has it right, no country has set up laws concerning who owns the rights towards user generated content in a video game. So no one really knows who owns the IP. Blizzard say they own it, but there's no precedent to back it up so their claim really doesn't matter.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Nobody really knows, that's part of the problem. Actually going to court would be a huge risk for either side which is why we are seeing all these petty maneuvers like giving out free betas vs making SC2 18+ rated.
the thing is that they wont allow any 3rd part company to make profits of their game.
And what id the 3rd party company does it anyway, like they have for the past 8 years?
Going to quote myself here from a thread about the same issue:
On March 03 2010 22:56 zatic wrote: Esport Cold War
What people need to realize is that both parties stand pretty much toe to toe in this. Both have about equal means to threaten each other it's not all like one party has the upper hand.
Blizzard could drag Kespa to court over copyright, but it's the last thing they want to do. A case like this would be dragged out for years, cost a lot, and the result would be entirely uncertain. The IP of computer game generated content has not been resolved at all in court anywhere as far as I know. Together with the production value the Korean TV broadcasts add to the product it is not at all clear who really owns the copyright to the TV rights, or who owns how much. The "best" Blizzard could hope for is shutting down pro BW after spending a lot of money and time in court - something that isn't at all in their interest. They would only lose.
On the other hand, Kespa can't continue with SC2 as they did with BW. Demanding licensing and challenging IP would be much easier for SC2 in the beginning from Blizzard perspective. However, Kespa could refuse to cooperate and use their influence over the TV stations and the teams to not give SC2 any recognition. Again, this is the last thing they want to do as well. The result would be equally uncertain as Blizzard's prospect suing Kespa. They might push SC2 in a niche, and continue to live off decreasing BW interest. But it might also create a new rival, whether this would be GOM or a completely new entity. The "best" they can hope for is destroying or hurting SC2's success while also hurting the value of their current product. They would only lose.
The two have equally disastrous means to hurt and thus threaten each other, but out of their own interest they won't do so, and both know it. So what we see are all those petty little maneuvers with which they try to demonstrate who has the upper hand. In the end, they will have to work together, or ignore each other enough that both can still do business.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
This wouldn't work, as it is probably forbidden in the TOS itself, and since you're hacking it, you're doing it with the intent of denying the TOS, which means it is clear that you know what you're circumventing there.
Technically it doesn't matter what is says or forbids if you never agree to it.
I think Blizzard just needs to give up on SCBW and accept that they have no rights to restrict its use in esports. They need to put the proper provisions in the TOS for SC2 from the beginning and just move forward with that. The only problem is they will have to compete with SCBW for sponsors, viewers, etc.
Technically, it is against the law to alter these game discs. It is a contract you enter upon your purchase of the disc/game. Altering the disc is infringement on copyright law.
Edit: Removed BM, just frustrated by "internet lawyers" who come up with stupid workarounds without thinking about it in depth.
On April 26 2010 14:19 fight_or_flight wrote: So what exactly are Blizzard's IP rights? They sell game disks, to which they own the copyright, and they have Battle.net, to which it is a privilege to use. But how does buying legitimate copies of SCBW, playing on a LAN, and televising the results violate any of Blizzard's rights?
Maybe it doesn't and that is the reason SCII will not support lan. They'd either have to use bnet (and pay Blizzard to do so) or hack the game which is illegal.
I'd recommend legally purchasing the disk, but hacking it so that you don't have to agree to the TOS to install it. That way you honor their copyright but perhaps get around all the BS about how you can use what you just purchased.
Blizzard made the game, they can put ANYTHING in their TOS/EULA and you can't do shit about it. They could write down that you have to jump around 10 times before using the game and it would be legally their right to demand a proof from you that you did so. You don't have to buy the thing if you don't want to follow the rules bound to its usage. Of course they can demand all the things they are actually demanding from KeSPA right now (regarding SC2, not sure what the situation with SC is), and I'm sure their lawyers will be making the TOS/EULA very secure in those terms, so that they can do terrible, terrible damage to KeSPA, should they not abide by Blizzards given terms.
From Wikipedia: Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C.
2nd thing is that US law is not applicable in Korea. Just cause some action might infringe on the intellectual property of one country doesn't mean it would infringe on the intellectual property of another country. Korean courts could decide that user generated content does not belong to blizzard so the really doesn't matter eula doesn't matter.
Zatic has it right, no country has set up laws concerning who owns the rights towards user generated content in a video game. So no one really knows who owns the IP. Blizzard say they own it, but there's no precedent to back it up so their claim really doesn't matter.
Exactly! Blizzard saying they own the games means shit. Even if Blizz is right here (if decided by courts), I don't thing anyone would try to organize a serious professional competition under Blizzs terms.
There is nothing really going on here. Blizz is offering their new game to be used in Korea pro scene under some terms, KeSPA is not ready to accept those terms. The point that a lot of you assume for granted is that pro scene wont be able to survive without SC2, but in reallity SC2 is still far away from proving that it can deliver a spectating experience SCBW can.
People really don't seem to understand that Brood War is dying in Korea. Compare the popularity for the game in 2006 with today, and it's night and day.
Brood War is dying with or without SC 2, and KeSPA is signing their own doom when they refuses to cooperate.
On April 26 2010 17:04 Eury wrote: People really don't seem to understand that Brood War is dying in Korea. Compare the popularity for the game in 2006 with today, and it's night and day.
Brood War is dying with or without SC 2, and KeSPA is signing their own doom when they refuses to cooperate.
What is even more frightening is that it might be the case that pro gaming in Korea is dying and not just BW.
On April 26 2010 17:04 Eury wrote: People really don't seem to understand that Brood War is dying in Korea. Compare the popularity for the game in 2006 with today, and it's night and day.
Brood War is dying with or without SC 2, and KeSPA is signing their own doom when they refuses to cooperate.
What is even more frightening is that it might be the case that pro gaming in Korea is dying and not just BW.
Well, that's true. That's pretty much the reason why KeSPA have tried to push Sudden Attack and other games so hard in the last years. They are trying to find a replacement to BW, but they have had no luck so far.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.
Here is an easy example and it is basically the same. If FIFA organization suddenly cease to exist would there still be football? Of course it would still be around and huge because there is a huge demand for it. Someone else will replace it. The organization is shit compare to the demand for something.
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote: Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on
This right here.
KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote: Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.
You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.
because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on
This right here.
KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.
How much money would really be in BW outside Korea? Sure, there is a hardcore fan-base for pro-BW, but it's probably not very large.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular. Someone will easily replace KeSPA, perhaps even a better company which would be alot better for spreading the scene outside of Korea.
Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular. Someone will easily replace KeSPA, perhaps even a better company which would be alot better for spreading the scene outside of Korea.
Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.
Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.
You are kidding right? How can Kespa prevent e-Sports from becoming global when they only control what is going on in Korea? There is nothing stopping the creation of e-Sports in EU/NA except the lack of interest from both investors and the general public and that is totally unrelated to Kespa. Sure, Kespa could have tried harder to make Korean BW viewable outside of Korea or provide English commentary or something, but that would be suicide financially. The number of people outside Korea interested in watching Korean BW is probably way too small to make that viable
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular.
I want you to list reasons why you have this view of Kespa.
I for one do not understand the extreme hate they get here on TL. Sure they could handle certain things better, but some people make it sound like they're worse than the Nazis.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
@nonduc: Waxangel is one of the most knowledgeable of the Korean progaming scene here, so no offence to you but please carefully read his post again, or perhaps print it out and stick it on your wall - cos I don't think you get his points (which are FACTS that everyone needs to know before having an opinion on this KeSPA v Blizzard issue).
Are you kidding?! In 2001–2003 KeSPA started on MBC both individual and team leagues! 2001 KPGA August—2001 KPGA November + KPGA Winners Championship 2002 KPGA 1st Tour 2002 Reebok KPGA 2nd Tour 2002 Pepsi Twist KPGA 3rd Tour 2002–2003 Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003 KeMongSa KPGA Tour Team League 2003 LifeZone KPGA Team League It was a huge support in forming the second largest StarCraft broadcasting channel.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.
In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).
I did say in practice :o
Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)? Yes, it is. Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.
Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.
In your last post your wording is bad too. The Association has a long history with many achievements and also failures — there is no “the Association in theory” and no “the Association in effect”.
No, in theory they would KPGA and KeSPA are the same organization since the founding. In effect, early KPGA was a small organization that lent its name to gembc/mbcgame who was looking for a name to lend itself legitimacy, although it did perform the function of handing out progaming licenses from that early date. KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom is the organization that started pro-league and represented the team owner's interests almost exclusively, while trying to sell OGN and MBCGame the rights to broadcast their own product.
Whatever, the semantics don't interest me as long as you seem to get my point.
I get your point — you cannot treat a long KPGA/KeSPA history properly and that’s why you use wrong data, terms, words, etc. E.g. you wrote “KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom… the rights to broadcast their own product” — that passing was in 2008, the broadcasting rights incindent was in early 2007, the united under KeSPA Proleague started in 2005 (SKY Proleague 2005 Round 1). The history of KeSPA is more complicated than your description of it.
Actually the position of chair passed to SKT in early 2005, just before the very first proleague (http://www.e-sports.or.kr/about/history.kea?m_Code=about_40&hYear=2005). I don't see how listing dates is disproving my points that KeSPA changed greatly in role, power and goals from its early beginnings
Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.
This is not really a discussion on whether the KeSPA is evil and treating the players like shit (which is true). The point is that any other organizations/sponsors would think twice before investing the money in organizing the leagues under the conditions required by Blizzard.
To me it seems that a game company should be happy if its game gets choosen by a progaming organization (be it KeSPA or not) to be played on the professional level. That is a huge commercial (free one). Imagine if WCG would need to pay Blizzard for SC2. If Blizzard was smart enough, they would pay WCG to introduce SC2 cause that would mean a huge publicity. Blizzard sold almost 5 million copies of SCBW in Korea. That something like 100mil in revenue for Blizz. To me it looks like Blizz should be paying KeSPA and not the other way around.
Three Rings for the KESPA kings under the sky, Seven for the korean in their halls of stone, Nine for the foreigner and e-sport doomed to die, One for the blizzard Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where blizzard lie. One Ring for e-sport to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring the e-sport in the darkness and bind them In the Land of dead where blizzard lie.
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular.
I want you to list reasons why you have this view of Kespa.
I for one do not understand the extreme hate they get here on TL. Sure they could handle certain things better, but some people make it sound like they're worse than the Nazis.
I don't want to say that KeSPA has only done bad, because I have no clue, but I can list reasons why I personally dislike KeSPA:
1) Free Agent fiasco 2) Giving Leta and GoRush forfeit losses for typing ppp incorrectly. 3) Forcing GOM to stop broadcasting tournaments by withdrawing most teams from the tournament
These are a few of the reasons why I don't think KeSPA is a good organization to represent eSports. Realistically, it's hard to tell how Blizzard would run things because we've never really seen Blizzard directly host an eSports tournament (last thing I remember was Blizzard sponsoring GOM), but I do know that KeSPA often does not have the players' best interests in mind, as indicated from the ridiculously strict, unfair policies regarding Free Agents (forcing the buying team to pay double the salary of the selling team for a player, and a player possibly losing their ability to play if they even sign up for Free Agency).
In my humble opinion, I think that Blizzard will end up working with GOM for future Korean eSports endeavors. Considering the company has worked with GOM in the past, and considering Blizzard DID TRY to negotiate with KeSPA (fair or not), I think Blizzard does want the help of Korean companies in promoting and hosting eSports in Korea.
On April 26 2010 20:56 nimoraca wrote: Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.
This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified.
There was a petition to stop Doom 3 from being released for being satanic, too. Petitions mean NOTHING.
On April 26 2010 19:16 [X]Ken_D wrote: KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.
You know they (OGN/MBC) can't actually do this because they don't have the rights to broadcast internationally (GOM had a different deal)? You know this is Blizzard's fault and not KeSPA's? I'm sure they would absolutely love to take their BW scene global but Blizzard is too restrictive so they are stuck with keeping it in Korea where they only have to deal with their own laws.
Well, the way I see it, I've always had the feeling Blizzard is very close to its players - they care about what people say, and try to adjust. I VERY highly doubt they'd just want to go against KeSPA, they probably did try to negociate to make things better for everyone. Least I imagine it so.
But from what I've read about KeSPA over the years, they kinda seem to really want the whole cake - in this situation I'm fairly sure they don't even care that much and just think they're big enough to take the hit or have a trick up their sleeve.
Then again, I'm fairly clueless on the subject and just throwing out assumptions here.
On April 26 2010 21:22 Vedic wrote: This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified..
I hope by central you mean split up... forcing separate regions keeps the comunity unified? That just doesn't make sense...
I haven't seen anything that baddle.net 2.0 does that backs up your argument. I have owned about 3 copies of SC/BW throughout the years but I would still rather play on iCCup or LAN with friends than battle.net. I doubt there are many people on iCCup that have not bought legitimate copies of the game.
On April 26 2010 20:56 nimoraca wrote: Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.
This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified.
There was a petition to stop Doom 3 from being released for being satanic, too. Petitions mean NOTHING.
Because keeping the players/community unified was clearly a goal... of splitting up the servers between regions with no ability to play between them.
Yea, pretty sure it's more likely LAN was removed for the purpose of screwing with KESPA and any other organization that might want to handle sc2 progaming like sc1 progaming is handled by KESPA.
On April 26 2010 20:56 nimoraca wrote: Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.
This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified.
There was a petition to stop Doom 3 from being released for being satanic, too. Petitions mean NOTHING.
Protecting their investment means caring about the money. I never said its a bad thing, but people say its a bad thing when the KeSPA is involved.
On April 26 2010 20:56 nimoraca wrote: Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too.
Black and white arguments are the only kind of arguments that have merit.
There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.
On April 26 2010 20:54 Waxangel wrote: Actually the position of chair passed to SKT in early 2005, just before the very first proleague (http://www.e-sports.or.kr/about/history.kea?m_Code=about_40&hYear=2005). I don't see how listing dates is disproving my points that KeSPA changed greatly in role, power and goals from its early beginnings
You are right — in this point only (chair position passed to SKT representative in early 2005). But plans for developing e-Sports in Korea were developed earlier — in December 15th 2004 was E-Sports Policy Talks (Presentation of Middle and Long Term Plans of e-Sports). And since 2005 there were great actions from KeSPA too — the agreements with I-PARK Mall on construct an e-Sports Stadium or organization of the Minor League (Dream League)… I can’t see “that KeSPA changed greatly in role, power and goals from its early beginnings”, both early and later there was a couple of both good and bad actions and decisions.
Don't forget the piracy factor when you talk about Blizz's move to a central server system.
Back in '97 a lot of people still had 56k modems, and some didn't have Internet at all. Piracy wasn't such a kick in the guts back then. Remember that Blizzard are a PC/MAC ONLY developer, and there was no way they would release a game without some kind of centralisation/DRM. (And as it turns out, we have both ><")
On April 26 2010 23:05 k!llua wrote: Don't forget the piracy factor when you talk about Blizz's move to a central server system.
Back in '97 a lot of people still had 56k modems, and some didn't have Internet at all. Piracy wasn't such a kick in the guts back then. Remember that Blizzard are a PC/MAC ONLY developer, and there was no way they would release a game without some kind of centralisation/DRM. (And as it turns out, we have both ><")
And, as can be seen from other games like Assassins Creed 2, pirates will still crack all the protection. I think all this "central server system" things are really connected to KeSPA .
Why is kespa making so much of a fuss paying for sc2? Its not like they get their other games for free(except sc1) the least they could do is pay up considering the success sc1 has brought them.
On April 27 2010 00:13 BDF92 wrote: Why is kespa making so much of a fuss paying for sc2? Its not like they get their other games for free(except sc1) the least they could do is pay up considering the success sc1 has brought them.
Is that true? If so, it's a pretty damn important detail.
Okay, blame the company that made the game that this site is entirely based around, and don't blame the shady foreign organization that has been caught doing illicit things that hurt blizzard's business. what are we, 5?
I support blizzard. They make the badass games and they show they are trying to make everyone happy. Blizzard doesn't need kespa to be successful (WoW is enough).
There's no way you can stop foreign countries from playing a cracked version of the game if they want to. Just make a game that everyone loves and can play and there will be no issues...
No LAN is going to be a huge problem. Many countries simply don't have fast enough networks to host tournaments with Blizzard's "always connected" philosophy.
i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
Nobody that posts in this thread will have a shred of influence on what is going to happen between KeSPA and Blizzard. This conflict is out of our hands and fruitless finger-pointing/judging-based-on-limited-information is going to get everything nowhere. It's only going to result in enormous posts of argument/counterargument and a lot of stubborn, uncompromising position-touting rather than actual argument with actual consensus as the objective.
I, for one, care about the GAME and the PLAYERS. Their sponsors' messes are something I don't want to concern myself with unless they clearly and surely jeopardize the two things that actually matter to me.
Just go back and play your Starcraft. Leave KeSPA and Blizzard to untangle their mess.
On April 27 2010 01:28 larjarse wrote: Okay, blame the company that made the game that this site is entirely based around, and don't blame the shady foreign organization that has been caught doing illicit things that hurt blizzard's business. what are we, 5?
I support blizzard. They make the badass games and they show they are trying to make everyone happy. Blizzard doesn't need kespa to be successful (WoW is enough).
Blizzard is doing the right thing to make sure the game is a commercial success, but they're going the wrong way to make it a successful e-sport. The game is good, the players are happy with the game itself (mostly), but the e-sports scene isn't.
On April 27 2010 01:28 larjarse wrote: Okay, blame the company that made the game that this site is entirely based around, and don't blame the shady foreign organization that has been caught doing illicit things that hurt blizzard's business. what are we, 5?
I support blizzard. They make the badass games and they show they are trying to make everyone happy. Blizzard doesn't need kespa to be successful (WoW is enough).
Last time I checked, TL was based on the Korean pro scene by far more than anything else. This is a site dedicated to competitive BW - it's not some random Blizzard fansite with single player information, wallpapers, and news posts that gush over the most vague of blue posts on official forums. Despite many people's hatred/distrust for KeSPA, the community still recognizes that the Korean scene is what made BW the amazing game it is today - in Blizzard's absence.
SC2 must be blurring the lines for some people, or something.
On April 27 2010 01:59 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
no ur wrong. Starcraft is not made from microsoft, its made from blizzard.
On April 26 2010 13:55 tomatriedes wrote: Kespa needs to develop their own RTS game.
The chances of a Korean made RTS making it big in the West is not that high, imo. People are too attached to the Blizzard name. Pro-gaming is not just about the game's competitive quality, it's also about its popularity, which draws in viewers and sponsors. It's these latter two that make or break a game in terms of competitive eSports.
On April 27 2010 01:59 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
All the new games not featuring LAN is a major step back in the evolution of E-sports. It's really sad to see this happen to SC2 also. + Show Spoiler +
What will happen when blizzard has sold all their copies? It's not like after a year or two people will start buying them again. Unlike wow you pay for sc once and then you can use it freely (If they don't include some battle.net fee that is) If we look on other games that were supposed to take over a previous game (Modern Warfare 2 is a good example) the e-sports community decided to stick with cod4 just cause of the no LAN option. Do blizzard really want that to happend to SC2 also? I can't seem to figure out why they would disable LAN if they "care" about e-sports.
I think a lot of you guys are missing the culmination of a lot of the side plots going on here, especially in light that these negotiations have been going on for years. I'm sure blizzards decision to drop lan greatly upset kespa, which in some respects is justified by both parties. Sc1 sold 10 million copies, and at the height of korean interest you could have easily sold nearly of all that, sc1 is possible one of the most pirated game ever with nearly 20 million in estimated pirate copies, blizzard wants to maximize paying customers, yet this puts a damper on e-sports.
That started the stalemate, however the game rigging of late gave kespa a huge black eye and especially since they tried to stay hush hush and make it go away quietly it gave blizzard and upper hand politically, when they applied that pressure kespa potentially tried to use the game rating system to black mail blizzard with the adult rating. In turn blizzard just pulled a trump card and gave them the business version of the middle finger.
Yes korea is one of the most game oriented countries but in the end is still a country smaller than 50 million. When you consider how strong esports has been growing in europe and the ever so large gaming population of north america, korea is still a small piece of the pie and its exclusion of foreigners prevents larger expansion.
That being said despite the huge numbers of gamers esports is a long ways off from being televised here in the states, largely in part by the nature of game players. They arent nearly as interested in watching live tv as they are from just internet viewing what they want to see, add that to a robust national identity to established traditional sports and its a huge uphill battle for ratings. It was much easier for korea to launch esports since their cultural did not identify with traditional sports at all. In summary while sc is important to korea korea alone does not have the market share nor revenue mine for to hold over blizzard to force their way.
On April 27 2010 03:00 MaYuu wrote: All the new games not featuring LAN is a major step back in the evolution of E-sports. It's really sad to see this happen to SC2 also. + Show Spoiler +
What will happen when blizzard has sold all their copies? It's not like after a year or two people will start buying them again. Unlike wow you pay for sc once and then you can use it freely (If they don't include some battle.net fee that is) If we look on other games that were supposed to take over a previous game (Modern Warfare 2 is a good example) the e-sports community decided to stick with cod4 just cause of the no LAN option. Do blizzard really want that to happend to SC2 also? I can't seem to figure out why they would disable LAN if they "care" about e-sports.
once you buy sc2, you are gonna buy it twice more (addons). After that, there will be a huge amount of UMS games that will blizzard will sell (or get provisions from selling user made maps/custom games).
There's a lot of options for blizzard to earn money, selling the game is just a single part. Don't forget about ingame advertisements and things like that.
On April 27 2010 01:59 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
I'm pretty sure game developers already have have to pay Microsoft to get that silly "Games For Windows" label on the box.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
@nonduc: Waxangel is one of the most knowledgeable of the Korean progaming scene here, so no offence to you but please carefully read his post again, or perhaps print it out and stick it on your wall - cos I don't think you get his points (which are FACTS that everyone needs to know before having an opinion on this KeSPA v Blizzard issue).
Are you kidding?! In 2001–2003 KeSPA started on MBC both individual and team leagues! 2001 KPGA August—2001 KPGA November + KPGA Winners Championship 2002 KPGA 1st Tour 2002 Reebok KPGA 2nd Tour 2002 Pepsi Twist KPGA 3rd Tour 2002–2003 Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003 KeMongSa KPGA Tour Team League 2003 LifeZone KPGA Team League It was a huge support in forming the second largest StarCraft broadcasting channel.
You seem to be willingly ignoring this post:
On April 26 2010 10:47 Waxangel wrote: No, in theory they would KPGA and KeSPA are the same organization since the founding. In effect, early KPGA was a small organization that lent its name to gembc/mbcgame who was looking for a name to lend itself legitimacy, although it did perform the function of handing out progaming licenses from that early date. KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom is the organization that started pro-league and represented the team owner's interests almost exclusively, while trying to sell OGN and MBCGame the rights to broadcast their own product.
Whatever, the semantics don't interest me as long as you seem to get my point.
KPGA was simply a name to lend legitimacy to MBC's broadcast tournament. As far as the the actual administration of the tournament, KeSPA/KPGA was in no way a critical organization.
On April 27 2010 03:56 TheYango wrote: KPGA was simply a name to lend legitimacy to MBC's broadcast tournament. As far as the the actual administration of the tournament, KeSPA/KPGA was in no way a critical organization.
“A critical organization”? What it this?! 8-() KeSPA was a sponsor of these leagues.
I would rather have Kespa in control rather Blizzard in control. Why is that? Once SC2 dies off a bit, Blizzard will move on. It will go to the next game. Blizzard's main revenue stream isn't Esports, its in selling games. Kespa however gets all its revenue from Esports. It will try to make sure Esports survives and prospers.
If Esports fails for blizzard, no big deal. It will go on to make WoW2, which will generate way more revenue for them than any measly Esports fees they charge.If Esports fails for Kespa, no more Kespa.
ugh... Is it me or is the release of SC2 just ruining so much? This means (as I understand it) we're looking at a potential end to the "Professional" Starcraft gamer, when no one can televise or broadcast these events. Truly, getting a sponsor for a game that's played professionally on national T.V. is a hell of a lot easier than a game that some cool guys on the internet play for fun, and sponsors make games profitable, and when games are profitable then people can play them professionally... I don't think any of this needs explaining.
I'm not really well informed about what each side is demanding, but I think even if blizzard can get a better or potentially international replacement, it would be nearly as costly if not more costly than it would be to accept KeSPA, not to mention all the pro-gaming houses and careers at steak, heavily invested in KeSPA. I hate SC2, but E-Sports deserves a spot in the future, even if it is this game which brings it to bear. I hope Blizzard isn't greedy enough to force Starcraft off the air and into the shadows.
On April 27 2010 05:46 hacpee wrote: I would rather have Kespa in control rather Blizzard in control. Why is that? Once SC2 dies off a bit, Blizzard will move on. It will go to the next game. Blizzard's main revenue stream isn't Esports, its in selling games. Kespa however gets all its revenue from Esports. It will try to make sure Esports survives and prospers.
If Esports fails for blizzard, no big deal. It will go on to make WoW2, which will generate way more revenue for them than any measly Esports fees they charge.If Esports fails for Kespa, no more Kespa.
Exactly, and this is what happened with SC in the first place. Blizzard didn't see profit potential in it any longer, and moved onto selling D2, and it's expansion. Then WC3 and it's expansion. Then WoW and it's expansions. Blizzard only keeps involved in games long enough to say they've done it. They do nothing past provide a mostly irrelevant bug fix patch 5 years later, or a faux balance patch that does little to address real problems. WoW is mostly an exception from this, and unsurprisingly so, because their performance in dealing with that game greatly impacts their profit margins at the end of the day. =P
If you want a good example of what Blizzard + Esports is all about, take a look at WC3. Map stagnation, never ending balance issues (related to the map issues, in the end), stonewalling over a proposed balance patch for ages... Given the popularity WC3 has had in Germany, China, and other locations, it should have been a much stronger Esport.
If an entity outside of Blizzard - one that has a stake in Esports and not game design - doesn't step up and take control, it's likely that SC2 will one day end up the same way.
Wow it's funny... on playsc and wfbrood, and even PLU, the biggest of the Chinese SC fansites , the opinion is overwhelmingly in support of KeSPA... I don't know if this is a culture thing or not though, but they really... really... hate Blizzard for trying to dictate the usage of SC2.
On April 27 2010 03:56 TheYango wrote: KPGA was simply a name to lend legitimacy to MBC's broadcast tournament. As far as the the actual administration of the tournament, KeSPA/KPGA was in no way a critical organization.
“A critical organization”? What it this?! 8-() KeSPA was a sponsor of these leagues.
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote: I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.
OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.
After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).
KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).
KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.
Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation
You are wrong. KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)
@nonduc: Waxangel is one of the most knowledgeable of the Korean progaming scene here, so no offence to you but please carefully read his post again, or perhaps print it out and stick it on your wall - cos I don't think you get his points (which are FACTS that everyone needs to know before having an opinion on this KeSPA v Blizzard issue).
Are you kidding?! In 2001–2003 KeSPA started on MBC both individual and team leagues! 2001 KPGA August—2001 KPGA November + KPGA Winners Championship 2002 KPGA 1st Tour 2002 Reebok KPGA 2nd Tour 2002 Pepsi Twist KPGA 3rd Tour 2002–2003 Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour 2003 KeMongSa KPGA Tour Team League 2003 LifeZone KPGA Team League It was a huge support in forming the second largest StarCraft broadcasting channel.
You're confusing the difference between one organization lending its namesake for an air of legitimacy and another company buying the rights to use its name in association with the tournament for advertising purposes. KPGA in those early days wasn't backed by the big corporations/money that KeSPA is today. They didn't have the money to sponsor these leagues and give them the money they needed to really grow, they lent their name to make the tournament sound more official and to get their foot in the door of an expanding market.
The KPGA name gave the tournaments a sense of legitimacy which brought increased viewership, and in turn garnered the interest of the real sponsors, which are in bold above.
On April 27 2010 01:59 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
I'm pretty sure game developers already have have to pay Microsoft to get that silly "Games For Windows" label on the box.
So yeah, no big change.
maybe true, but if this the case, it means u need to pay for organising a tour with blizzard certificated tour, or whatever.
i tell other thing, u remember when google chrome first came out? google forgot to update eula, just copy paste from other product, and it said google has all rights to everything used with his product (just like blizzard says now), u upload a pic, and its googles pic from then. it was little better, u could broadcast how u use chrome, but u cant broadcast how u use sc2. it was a little scandal, how google dare to do this, and they said sorry it was mistake, now blizz do it worst, and many ppl like it... nonsense
the best thing can happen to esport is blizzard fail totally with sc2. if this new model working then bad days will come, blizzard will tell what game u must play competitive. they make new expansion, and make prices for making tour for old sc2 very high, so u must play new game, no matter if its good or not, balanced or not
On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote: Exactly, and this is what happened with SC in the first place. Blizzard didn't see profit potential in it any longer, and moved onto selling D2, and it's expansion. Then WC3 and it's expansion. Then WoW and it's expansions. Blizzard only keeps involved in games long enough to say they've done it. They do nothing past provide a mostly irrelevant bug fix patch 5 years later, or a faux balance patch that does little to address real problems. WoW is mostly an exception from this, and unsurprisingly so, because their performance in dealing with that game greatly impacts their profit margins at the end of the day. =P
Chat in replays, CPU throttling, and removing the CD key requirement are hardly "irrelevant bug fixes". These were all implemented in SC in the last 2 years and the response on TL.net to these changes was overwhelmingly positive. As far as game developers go, Blizzard has gone well beyond what's delivered by any other game developer. Similarly significant content changes have been delivered in patches of other Blizzard games, and the cycle between releases from Blizzard is far longer than from any other developer. Put simply, you've been spoiled. Plenty of other developers have put out 2-3 sequels between when SC2 was announced and now, while SC2 itself isn't even out of beta.
To say that Blizzard is insensitive to the needs of Esports is one thing. To say that they're insensitive to their fanbase as a whole is just plain wrong.
On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote: If you want a good example of what Blizzard + Esports is all about, take a look at WC3. Map stagnation, never ending balance issues (related to the map issues, in the end), stonewalling over a proposed balance patch for ages... Given the popularity WC3 has had in Germany, China, and other locations, it should been a much stronger Esport.
It's funny that people say that Warcraft 3 was not patched for balance enough, when it received vastly more balance-patching than Starcraft ever did. One wonders what would have happened if Blizzard took an approach more like that in Starcraft, where after a couple balance changes for serious issues, they let it be.
On April 27 2010 06:17 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i tell other thing, u remember when google chrome first came out? google forgot to update eula, just copy paste from other product, and it said google has all rights to everything used with his product (just like blizzard says now), u upload a pic, and its googles pic from then. it was little better, u could broadcast how u use chrome, but u cant broadcast how u use sc2. it was a little scandal, how google dare to do this, and they said sorry it was mistake, now blizz do it worst, and many ppl like it... nonsense
Ugh, stop confusing the issues. Blizzard doesn't just claim rights to any content you create using SC2. Most use of games/replays falls under fair use (e.g. it's perfectly fine to livestream your own games). What the Blizzard ToS states is that you can't use Battle.net 2.0 commercially for profit. This doesn't mean that every tournament organizer has to give Blizzard a cut. Plenty of community events can run without the need for people making money--in fact, TL has been adamantly opposed to groups trying to take a cut out of what could be perfectly fine as a community-run tournament (CSL fiasco anyone?). TSL was run non-profit, and events like it presumably would be acceptable under B.net 2.0 ToS.
On April 27 2010 01:59 Pezsmapatkany wrote: i wonder, what would ppl say who want blizzard to win, if microsoft say that all games that run in their product (windows) and uses their product (directx) must pay money for them. will they say: oh yeah, ms made those stuff, he should get his money from that, or they would react other way?
ms dont need blizzard to be succesfull, blizzard need ms, gogo microsoft...
no ur wrong. Starcraft is not made from microsoft, its made from blizzard.
It amazes me the amount of people who believe KeSPA is necessary for eSports to live because they provide sponsor money. You guys act like KeSPA is a saint and gives out money like donations but KeSPA doesn't lose a penny. They're always making a huge profit off of broadcasting and I don't think any of you defending them have an idea how much that amount is compared to what they throw away for sponsor prizes. KeSPA is a thing of the past. The consumers will easily get over their death and go watch the other companies who broadcast. You think all those fans go because of KeSPA? They go to watch awesome games. The only thing that wont carry on perhaps is the SC1 Pro teams, and that's alright. It's an entirely new game but the scene is already developed, WITHOUT KeSPA and entirely because of Blizzard. They even began to develop the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea by giving them an Open Beta. You think all those people playing give two shits about KeSPA and Starcraft 1? KeSPA has no right to even deny Blizzard any royalties for the new game they had nothing to do with.
The only thing KeSPA has over Blizzard is the sense of nationality in it's own country. Korean pride is strong and I dont doubt they'd stick together but the market wont stand behind pride alone. If there's a possibility of making as much money as KeSPA makes and still be able to just give away huge prize pools, the companies will invest.
The Starcraft 2 scene has already kicked off without KeSPA and the game is still in beta. The future of Starcraft 2 definitely doesn't need KeSPA and will more likely than not develop in Korea regardless.
On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote: Exactly, and this is what happened with SC in the first place. Blizzard didn't see profit potential in it any longer, and moved onto selling D2, and it's expansion. Then WC3 and it's expansion. Then WoW and it's expansions. Blizzard only keeps involved in games long enough to say they've done it. They do nothing past provide a mostly irrelevant bug fix patch 5 years later, or a faux balance patch that does little to address real problems. WoW is mostly an exception from this, and unsurprisingly so, because their performance in dealing with that game greatly impacts their profit margins at the end of the day. =P
Chat in replays, CPU throttling, and removing the CD key requirement are hardly "irrelevant bug fixes". These were all implemented in SC in the last 2 years and the response on TL.net to these changes was overwhelmingly positive. As far as game developers go, Blizzard has gone well beyond what's delivered by any other game developer. Similarly significant content changes have been delivered in patches of other Blizzard games, and the cycle between releases from Blizzard is far longer than from any other developer. Put simply, you've been spoiled. Plenty of other developers have put out 2-3 sequels between when SC2 was announced and now, while SC2 itself isn't even out of beta.
To say that Blizzard is insensitive to the needs of Esports is one thing. To say that they're insensitive to their fanbase as a whole is just plain wrong.
This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same).
On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote: If you want a good example of what Blizzard + Esports is all about, take a look at WC3. Map stagnation, never ending balance issues (related to the map issues, in the end), stonewalling over a proposed balance patch for ages... Given the popularity WC3 has had in Germany, China, and other locations, it should been a much stronger Esport.
It's funny that people say that Warcraft 3 was not patched for balance enough, when it received vastly more balance-patching than Starcraft ever did. One wonders what would have happened if Blizzard took an approach more like that in Starcraft, where after a couple balance changes for serious issues, they let it be.
It has nothing to do with whether it was patched more often or not. Quality over quantity, any day. And it wasn't the fact Blizzard left SC alone after a time that balanced it, it was the fact that someone else took up the reigns and tweaked the gameplay in the right direction through map building. Besides, you're ignoring hundreds of other variables here - most notably the fact that WC3 has 4 races and tons of random elements while SC has 3 races based off of extremely static numbers.
On April 27 2010 06:52 xBillehx wrote: It amazes me the amount of people who believe KeSPA is necessary for eSports to live because they provide sponsor money. You guys act like KeSPA is a saint and gives out money like donations but KeSPA doesn't lose a penny. They're always making a huge profit off of broadcasting and I don't think any of you defending them have an idea how much that amount is compared to what they throw away for sponsor prizes. KeSPA is a thing of the past. The consumers will easily get over their death and go watch the other companies who broadcast. You think all those fans go because of KeSPA? They go to watch awesome games. The only thing that wont carry on perhaps is the SC1 Pro teams, and that's alright. It's an entirely new game but the scene is already developed, WITHOUT KeSPA and entirely because of Blizzard. They even began to develop the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea by giving them an Open Beta. You think all those people playing give two shits about KeSPA and Starcraft 1? KeSPA has no right to even deny Blizzard any royalties for the new game they had nothing to do with.
The only thing KeSPA has over Blizzard is the sense of nationality in it's own country. Korean pride is strong and I dont doubt they'd stick together but the market wont stand behind pride alone. If there's a possibility of making as much money as KeSPA makes and still be able to just give away huge prize pools, the companies will invest.
The Starcraft 2 scene has already kicked off without KeSPA and the game is still in beta. The future of Starcraft 2 definitely doesn't need KeSPA and will more likely than not develop in Korea regardless.
You see that is where you're mistaken. The reason many people spend 12 hours a day today playing Starcraft is because they know that SC will still be around in 2 years(well not so much now but that was the case a few years ago). The players know that Kespa will not just arbitrarily move on to a new game. Their hard work now will pay off some day in the future. However, if you are part of some loose group of leagues that can't guarantee that they'll stick with the same game for more than 2 years, then players won't practice 12 hours a day and slave their heart out to be the best they can be in the game. Why? Because in 2 years,all that work will be obsolete and there will be a new game that Blizzard comes out with.
Again, Blizzard isn't in this to make Esports successful. It is there to make money, and it sees Esports as a small revenue stream. Nothing else. If that revenue stream starts to flounder, it won't risk money propping it up and making it grow. Instead, it will come out with a new game and try to make that new game the new Esports of blizzard and start a whole new revenue stream.
Kespa is no different. Except that Esports is all it has. If their revenue for the game flounders, then it will need to reinvest to train a whole new bunch of players to play a new game. It will need to reinvest a ton of money and time into a new bunch of players to move on to another game. It would rather stay with a central game for a long time to maximize revenue.
On April 27 2010 06:54 QibingZero wrote: This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same).
I was confused by your argument, apologies. On this we agree.
At the same time, I don't consider the interests of KeSPA to be any more aligned with the good of Esports than Blizzard's. However, Blizzard has the added incentive that a healthy SC2 competitive community is, at least for the time being, good publicity. By comparison, attention toward SC2 for KeSPA is likely to take attention away from SC1. I suspect Blizzard will attempt to find a managing body more aligned with their own interests, and I highly doubt that can be worse than KeSPA has been to date. At the very least, the fact that Blizzard doesn't have financial interest vested in the ownership of progaming teams means that we could hope to see some better movement for players' rights (wishful thinking, I know).
On April 27 2010 06:54 QibingZero wrote: This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same).
I was confused by your argument, apologies. On this we agree.
At the same time, I don't consider the interests of KeSPA to be any more aligned with the good of Esports than Blizzard's. However, Blizzard has the added incentive that a healthy SC2 competitive community is, at least for the time being, good publicity. By comparison, attention toward SC2 for KeSPA is likely to take attention away from SC1. I suspect Blizzard will attempt to find a managing body more aligned with their own interests, and I highly doubt that can be worse than KeSPA has been to date. At the very least, the fact that Blizzard doesn't have financial interest vested in the ownership of progaming teams means that we could hope to see some better movement for players' rights (wishful thinking, I know).
The livelihood of KeSPA depend on the health of Esport, Blizzard's overall livelihood does not depend on it. One has experience running it for 10 years and Blizzard thinks Lan is obsolete. I think it's wishful thinking that somehow blizzard will do it better than KeSPA.
Everyone bitches about KeSPA and then stays up till 4am to watch proleagues, despite their problems, they do a good job promoting the game, players and teams so that it feels more fun/endearing to watch. Things like this allowed it to be broadcast on television and you have people that don't even know the game coming into watch.
On April 26 2010 21:31 ket- wrote: Well, the way I see it, I've always had the feeling Blizzard is very close to its players - they care about what people say, and try to adjust. I VERY highly doubt they'd just want to go against KeSPA, they probably did try to negociate to make things better for everyone. Least I imagine it so.
But from what I've read about KeSPA over the years, they kinda seem to really want the whole cake - in this situation I'm fairly sure they don't even care that much and just think they're big enough to take the hit or have a trick up their sleeve.
Then again, I'm fairly clueless on the subject and just throwing out assumptions here.
you better not post if you know nothing about what you talk about no ?
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
On April 27 2010 07:57 Gnabgib wrote: This posting seems to be relevant to the conversation.
What would happen if the teams were not united in staying with Kespa?
Blizzard would probably try to figure out something to make all the sc1 players to buy sc2 instead. They don't care about the sc:bw scene, they just want us all to buy sc2.
im seriously thinking about human brain right now , some of you got something inside ?
if kespa die that simple and easy : e-sport and progaming in korea die for sc1 and probably sc2 .
if blizzard handle e-sport = online tourney , online ladder , stop right when they stop make money , mean 2 year MAX. then they move on new game .
e-sport outside korea ? : keep dreaming and plz dont tell me some players or team who got less that fast food job money and the moral of everyone outside korea think that what they are doing are bad .
i dont care what you think , this going to happen that you like it or not .
keep dreaming , until everything break , keep dreaming !!! here we go SC2 pro gaming !!!!!!!!! everywhere in the world !!!!
blizzard = right what they do = right what they think = what you need to think . if you are not thinking like blizzard you are wrong since blizzard = right
but dont worry we at blizzard REALY CARE about the players . we care so much about pro gaming , you cant know how ! we only think about the players while making game ho yes we realy care that the reason we removed lan btw , because we care about you !
i dont have an english diploma and i can understand him?
Either way, Blizzard talks about supporting e-sports to make us feel warm and fuzzy and buy their game. Of course, No lan, devisions in ladder is all to promote e-sport yeahhhhh.
While Korean companies, regardless if they are making profit or not or charity or whatsoever theyve been talking, have shown that they can run e-sports for 7 straight years or more
between trusting blizzard or korean companies, i definitely trust koreans on this one. Sure, they are greedy, but their earning is directly proportional to the quality of their games presentation,
while Blizzard is greedy too, but their earning is instead proportional to numbers of games sold, and also (tournaments fee's + tournament ticket's sales - tournament prizes), because there is no way they can make money by showing SC western progamers.
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
How is attacking KeSPA in any way attacking players and fans? There are cases people could cite and have cited where KeSPA endangered competitive Starcraft and the Esports as a whole just as much as Blizzard is supposedly doing now (in actuality, this doesn't endanger competitive Starcraft at all--only the release of SC2 will do that).
KeSPA is just as much a self-interested as Blizzard. Don't try to turn this into a "corporations vs consumers" battle here, because that's very clearly not what this is. This is two greedy corporations fighting for the bigger piece of the pie.
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
How is attacking KeSPA in any way attacking players and fans? There are cases people could cite and have cited where KeSPA endangered competitive Starcraft and the Esports as a whole just as much as Blizzard is supposedly doing now (in actuality, this doesn't endanger competitive Starcraft at all--only the release of SC2 will do that).
KeSPA is just as much a self-interested as Blizzard. Don't try to turn this into a "corporations vs consumers" battle here, because that's very clearly not what this is. This is two greedy corporations fighting for the bigger piece of the pie.
As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
..except KeSPA has been "attacking" fans for years, lol.
On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote: As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
Is longevity all that matters in the industry?
Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago? + Show Spoiler +
The obvious answer being no, as post-SC2 beta, TL's had an influx of new users who don't even know what I'm talking about.
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote: As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
Is longevity all that matters in the industry?
Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago?
Yes longevity matters. Why? Because it gives players more time to be familiar with the game and explore every creative possibility.It also ensures that the time spent playing and practicing(12 hours a day) will not be wasted in a year or two just because Blizzard comes out with a new game.
It took years for Starcraft to evolve into the multi-tasking orgasm it is today. It will take a bit less, but still a long time for Starcraft 2 to fulfill its full potential. Only then can we see truly skilled Starcraft, which is what matters. Right now, I am not enjoying the SC2 tournaments at all. I only watch SC1 programing currently because of how skilled they are. Frankly, the skill level in SC2 isn't there yet.
TheYango, I said that Blizzard is hurting fans and SC in general by fighting KeSPA.
Sure KeSPA has made some stupid decisions (ok, maybe a LOT of stupid decisions) but they are the ones who are keeping professional SC going. I realize that both companies are just in it for the money, but the right choice for eSports is for Blizzard to back down. KeSPA has problems, but they have given us the pro-scene for years and given Blizzard a some decent sales on a 10+ year old game.
If Blizzard had been putting a lot of support into a ladder and community, then I would understand them getting bitchy about copyright. As it is, however, they have done virtually nothing, and everything significant in the last 8-10 years related to Brood War happened because of Korean companies and loyal fans.
On April 27 2010 12:49 LxRogue wrote: but they are the ones who are keeping professional SC going.
....
Professional Starcraft is going because there is profit to be made. There is profit to be made because there is demand. If you remove the profit to be made, the demand does not go away. And capitalism dictates that someone else will readily come fill that demand for a tidy profit.
On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote: As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
Is longevity all that matters in the industry?
Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago? + Show Spoiler +
The obvious answer being no, as post-SC2 beta, TL's had an influx of new users who don't even know what I'm talking about.
Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
i just hate blizzard... greedy f---s who don't care about anything but money. Progaming will not be the same without Kespa. Sure it has its faults and some controversies, but some of you guys don't understand the fundamental role it has played in developing e-sports. Please don't be naive and think "Kespa is terrible cuz ->insert small issue that doesn't even matter much in the grand scheme of things<-".
On April 27 2010 14:52 blazinggpassion wrote: i just hate blizzard... greedy f---s who don't care about anything but money. Progaming will not be the same without Kespa. Sure it has its faults and some controversies, but some of you guys don't understand the fundamental role it has played in developing e-sports. Please don't be naive and think "Kespa is terrible cuz ->insert small issue that doesn't even matter much in the grand scheme of things<-".
Please stop using Blizzard's products. Don't align yourself with evil terrible Blizzard that make games you have to play.
People seriously siding with kespa here? From what I understand what kespa did originally was gain billions off of a product that wasn't theirs, and blizzard let them off the hook all these years. Now with a new product coming out, they want to get their share of what they deserve, and considering kespa is making all their money off of something that isn't theirs, the owners should be allowed a royalty, which is what blizz is asking for. Kespa is trying to act like the bully saying they'll just go back to BW and never move over to SC2, but blizzard is in the power position since SC2 and DUH bw, is their product.
To my knowledge Blizzard only fight over SC2 rights and not SC1 right? So, KESPA can still run events like what they are doing right now with SC1? If so, I'm glad Blizzard ceased the negotiation, because I don't play SC2. I like things the way they are
On April 27 2010 15:40 ZlaSHeR wrote: People seriously siding with kespa here? From what I understand what kespa did originally was gain billions off of a product that wasn't theirs, and blizzard let them off the hook all these years. Now with a new product coming out, they want to get their share of what they deserve, and considering kespa is making all their money off of something that isn't theirs, the owners should be allowed a royalty, which is what blizz is asking for. Kespa is trying to act like the bully saying they'll just go back to BW and never move over to SC2, but blizzard is in the power position since SC2 and DUH bw, is their product.
How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost.
I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from.
Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time.
The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel.
(I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money)
On April 27 2010 15:57 Nukid wrote: To my knowledge Blizzard only fight over SC2 rights and not SC1 right? So, KESPA can still run events like what they are doing right now with SC1? If so, I'm glad Blizzard ceased the negotiation, because I don't play SC2. I like things the way they are
I'd like to know this also.
StarCraft II hasn't impressed me, idc about the pro scene there, but I'd really hate Blizz if they took away the BW leagues..
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
good its about time kespa had their egos taken down a notch. No fear tho Sc2 is going to boom once release hits and new players in the E-Sports realm will step up to the plate not just Kespa. After all if a huge company like Blizzard is able to start hosting events with their kind of financial background E-Sports will be bigger then ever
oh yea btw heres the list of players being accused of rigging matches in korea to make money, just further corrupting e-sports in korea and kespa's name so who cares
Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go)
On April 27 2010 15:40 ZlaSHeR wrote: People seriously siding with kespa here? From what I understand what kespa did originally was gain billions off of a product that wasn't theirs, and blizzard let them off the hook all these years. Now with a new product coming out, they want to get their share of what they deserve, and considering kespa is making all their money off of something that isn't theirs, the owners should be allowed a royalty, which is what blizz is asking for. Kespa is trying to act like the bully saying they'll just go back to BW and never move over to SC2, but blizzard is in the power position since SC2 and DUH bw, is their product.
How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost.
I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from.
Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time.
The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel.
(I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money)
The companies sponsor teams as advertising. Just like small bowling teams are sponsored by local comapnies, CJ, Samsung, SK Telecom, etc sponsor E-Sports teams for the publicity (and PR). The players wear the sponsor logos on their uniforms, play well, and (hopefully) influence the fans to buy their products. The same goes for MSL/OSL sponsors (and Shinhan bank which sponsors Proleague).
There is clearly a profit there for the companies, even if its in good publicity and a more positive name recognition instead of direct revenues. As for how much the companies would make from the added sales vs the cost of operating the teams (which is certainly not cheap due to housing, food, salaries, coaching staff, uniforms, etc) its really unclear just how good of an investment it is.
Many large companies consider investments that go towards good PR as worthwhile even if they do not directly get paid for them.
On April 27 2010 15:40 ZlaSHeR wrote: People seriously siding with kespa here? From what I understand what kespa did originally was gain billions off of a product that wasn't theirs, and blizzard let them off the hook all these years. Now with a new product coming out, they want to get their share of what they deserve, and considering kespa is making all their money off of something that isn't theirs, the owners should be allowed a royalty, which is what blizz is asking for. Kespa is trying to act like the bully saying they'll just go back to BW and never move over to SC2, but blizzard is in the power position since SC2 and DUH bw, is their product.
How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost.
I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from.
Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time.
The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel.
(I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money)
How many more cellphones/plans Korea Telecom, SK Telecom, or Samsung sell due to their involvement in the proscene is something you cannot measure. How much merchandise Hwaseung/Lecaf sells because of their team cannot be measured. How many more games WeMade sells cannot be measured. How many CJ food products, shows, or movies are purchased/viewed cannot be measured. How many Shinhan Bank accounts are opened because of the Proleague is impossible to know. Yet no doubt all of these corporations are gaining substantially due to their involvement in the scene, or they wouldn't still be there. It's about marketing a brand name to an audience (mostly young men) that are about to become independent consumers.
edit: looks like moopie beat me to it.
On April 27 2010 16:28 Limenade wrote: oh yea btw heres the list of players being accused of rigging matches in korea to make money, just further corrupting e-sports in korea and kespa's name so who cares
Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go)
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
On April 27 2010 16:28 Limenade wrote: oh yea btw heres the list of players being accused of rigging matches in korea to make money, just further corrupting e-sports in korea and kespa's name so who cares
Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go)
That has next to nothing to do with the topic at hand, why would you bring it up?
Because it also could be a major reasoning behind why Kespa has no leverage anymore against blizzard since there is a good chance many of the pro gamers could even go to jail if these accusations against them turn out to be true. Thus making it even more of a reason behind why blizzard should not associate with Kespa and should look else where to find a new partner in E-Sports one that was not related to multi million dollar gambling related scandals that involved Blizzard's product.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
I seriously dont know if it is true, but let's say Blizzard really tried to talk to KESPA and KESPA ignored their offer - that's something that really p*** me off. I actually know how "unions" or "representators" are and they are all sometimes as dumb as can be, seriously. Those people got THEIR point and once you want to actually discuss, rather even TALK to them, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that makes them even care about the points you have to offer.
So seeing this like "live" everyday myself on my current work - I clearly can imagine how bad blizzard feels about KESPA. As already stated, KESPA makes profit out of the blue, with a product that Blizzard owns.
Here in Germany for isntance you have to pay at least a very basic fee for the "artist" if you want to broadcast widely his product. Kespa is basicly using the artworks, the game itself etc. for free if I'm not mistaken.
Arguing about the thing - in SC2 tournaments will be held on the battle.net servers - an insane infrastructre that consumes tons of power, heat control, hardware and coffee (for the techies . Of course, a LAN mode would solve a lot, but I think the concept of Battle.net 2.0 is to connect people instead of limiting the whole amount of tools the internet has to offer. It's also a complete new platform we shouldn't blame to much on just because it's new and not perfectly working. By the way, if you look at the old battle.net now, you really want to step back instead of forward? I don't. I by the way personally think a "offline" mode will be added sooner or later anyway for sure once the game established. They already mentioned it in former interviews to implement the offline mode where you can play in LAN by just verify your copy and account once on the battle.net. Internet is available everywhere even at a TV broadcasting station and so it's just a matter of latency and /dnd mode. Every LAN party offers a internet connection which is basicly enough for a temporary logon session. Tough, there is no real "need" for the release I suppose they rather focused on establishing the new Battle.net and the game itself instead of "minor" technical issues like that. As you can see, this is a completely other topic itself.
So if KESPA really acts like that, completely ignoring ANYTHING to come to a solution - which Blizzard seems clearly to offer for over three years and spit on them with things like that rating for SC2 - I'd clearly looking for someone new to run public events.
I think what made SC:BW so great was basicly the fan base, especially outside of korea where something like KESPA isn't existing that ALSO made it valueable for KESPA to broadcast. Same goes for ICCup or former PGTour. Blizzard wants to be part of it, that is obvious but obviously they dont want to be the "host", just the partner, which is totally right. Actually they seem to want to make it even "easier" to access the fanbase if you watch the broadcasting feature and all that stuff upcoming in Battle.net 2.0.
If something like a world wide SC2 association would merge, using the battle.net 2.0 features and features available for the "average" sports viewer like TV and radio - it's gonna be insane. Of course, this will be a tough fight but the community is strong and once some companies get the idea how to access the "market" of young adults (which is clearly underrated in europe) - we definately got a COMPLETLY NEW chance to form something great.
Personally, I would side with KeSPA on this issue. They are far more capable of running BW as an e-sport than Blizzard ever has. Essentially, Blizzard made BW and numerous patches(as is expected of any game, unless the developers are worthless), but they did nothing else. The Koreans and foreigners who liked BW(iccup notably) made it popular and competitive. They fixed many of the problems of a glitchy battle.net in their own tournaments, and KeSPA poured thousands of dollars into making maps that would make BW as successful as it is. Yes, KeSPA does profit off of the game, but so does Blizzard, and I see no problem with making money in a manner than violates a foreign law(the USA doesn't have to prohibit professionals fro receiving a higher salary because communists wouldn't allow it). I hardly think Blizzard deserves royalties for doing nothing and letting third parties make an E-sport out of their game. I wouldn't blame KeSPA for refusing negotiations, especially if the conditions are ridiculous. Quite simply, if Blizzard ran Starcraft E-sports, it would run terribly. Battle.net never worked and was never fixed, or else there would be no need for a server like iccup's. Not that they even seem to care about what would be best for E-sports, considering the removal of LAN and the regionalized system. They don't seem to have a grasp of what E-sports is either, which will of course hinder competitive play heavily. Although personally I'm glad that Blizzard stopped negotiations, as I believe SC2 is mediocre at best. Considering the support of KeSPA in Asia, it's likely that BW will continue to remain dominant so that we can watch Korean pro games, even if most of the world chooses to move towards a lesser game.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
You seriously think Kespa is making billions? What world are you living in? MSL has had a hard time sponsoring its tournaments since forever. Have you seen what sponsors it has had? The point is that Blizzard does not have a vested interest in Starcraft Esports succeeding for more than a couple of years. Every 3 or so years they come up with a new game. Then the old one becomes basically ignored. So they support SC2 for 3 years, then they'll move on to something better. Guess what? All the hard work players put into perfecting their game during the 3 years will be wasted.
If I remember correctly, Blizzard tried to control the WoW tourneys basically limiting play to their own servers. Players at official lan tournaments basically had to connect to Blizzard through the internet to play. No lan latency in a Lan tournament! You were restricted by the internet connection. Absurd.
I can't say how much they make exactly, the billions is a completely arbitrary number, but the money you can make from merchandising and advertising is a good amount. The most obscure sports in america can make money, even if its not a lot. Blizzard is the rightful owner to SCBW and SC2 and they have the legal and ethical rights to charge kespa for making money off of their game. I don't know how much kespa makes, but if it is a large company with hundreds of employees, they ARE making money.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
On April 27 2010 17:51 ZlaSHeR wrote: I can't say how much they make exactly, the billions is a completely arbitrary number, but the money you can make from merchandising and advertising is a good amount. The most obscure sports in america can make money, even if its not a lot. Blizzard is the rightful owner to SCBW and SC2 and they have the legal and ethical rights to charge kespa for making money off of their game. I don't know how much kespa makes, but if it is a large company with hundreds of employees, they ARE making money.
merchandising? Are you serious? Do you think Starcraft is THAT big in korea? No it isn't. Basically here is the deal. Blizzard is known to choke tournament organizers with fees. It happened in wow, up to the point that some tourneys dropped the game because the licensing fee was too high. I don't want that to happen. More blizzard involvement=higher chance this new game will not live long in terms of Esports.
That's the thing I was asking about in my convoluted post. I know that advertising is the reason why Flash splits his workers while simultaneously drinking Pocari Sweat and why Page 9 decided to sponsor STX (the team with Hwasin) but that's fairly indirect revenue. I see absolutely no evidence of anyone getting any significant direct revenue through club memberships, merchandise, or through any other methods most sports clubs earn their revenue from their fans.
Everything I've seen suggests that progaming isn't really that "massive" in Korea and that its reputation is overblown. Big enough to fill a stadium during the finals but not large enough to call it the national sport of Korea.
On April 27 2010 17:56 nimoraca wrote: Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
On April 27 2010 16:20 xBillehx wrote:KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it.
You seriously think that running a pro team don't cost any money? There was more money put into Esports then it had cost to develop SC:BW, even if you would only add up the players salaries, and there is obviously much more costs then that.
On April 27 2010 16:20 xBillehx wrote:Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
How would they make profit if Blizzard would have a right to take as much from as it would want? Serious SC2 pro gaming looks like hi risk, low reward deal now. I don't see any pro gaming with those terms (on the SC:BW scale with competing teams/leagues that run for almost full year), they will just be separated tournaments that way.
if theres a chess or football tournament, do you have to pay the creator of chess or football money. well no because those people are dead.... however...
whats to stop KESPA from creating their own RTS game called "superstarchess" and its exactly like starcraft BW in every way except the units are all called different name.
such a video game project would actually not be expensive....
if kespa did that, they could still have starcraft tournaments but it would be called "superstarchess tournaments". the only difference is blizzard would make no money off the free advertising starcraft gets in starcraft tournaments
so blizzard can go F themselves to be honest. rts games are just a advances real time boardgame that programmers have coded to play out and be interfaced a certain way between the player and his controlls.
starcraft tournaments do not illegally sell starcraft, they only broadcast games on it..... blizzard should not have rights to the playing or the broadcasts
So is superstarchess 2 free? will it have LAN? Will it have free single player?
I dont think thats very accurate. Name is QUITE important. im pretty sure if some random netizen released "superstarchess 2" 1 year ago, with the exact same units and the exact same interface as the final product of SC2 is, probably only 0.5-1.0% of the people will say its a "good product"
Just like how cnc3 , and some Rts are called of as bad products. Mostly because they dont have the NAME starcraft bought to it.
On April 27 2010 18:32 roymarthyup wrote: starcraft is like chess or football
if theres a chess or football tournament, do you have to pay the creator of chess or football money. well no because those people are dead.... however...
whats to stop KESPA from creating their own RTS game called "superstarchess" and its exactly like starcraft BW in every way except the units are all called different name.
such a video game project would actually not be expensive....
if kespa did that, they could still have starcraft tournaments but it would be called "superstarchess tournaments". the only difference is blizzard would make no money off the free advertising starcraft gets in starcraft tournaments
so blizzard can go F themselves to be honest. rts games are just a advances real time boardgame that programmers have coded to play out and be interfaced a certain way between the player and his controlls.
starcraft tournaments do not illegally sell starcraft, they only broadcast games on it..... blizzard should not have rights to the playing or the broadcasts
If you knew anything about law, you'd know that if they literally had archons but called them elephants, same skin, same EVERYTHING, same map decals every unit and structure looks the same, then blizzard can still sue. If they made a whole new RTS with similar gameplay, as in the same damage and splash and hp, that is allowed.
But if you think kespa is as poor as you make them out to be, they won't be able to make this game. They don't have the artists and engineers that blizzard has.
ppl, you don't understand one thing.. SC (and SC2) is a game like every other.. england invented a game (football), usa invented a game (basketball) and would you agree if they were asking money from everyone who plays football/basketball profesionally??? ofcourse you wouldn't agree.. well, blizzard is doing that. they want money for something it's not their ground. Kespa made SC goind for more then ten yrs and blizzard should be thankful for that. kespa is progaming organisation and it is like FIFA/NBA .. blizzard is here to invent games not to control who plays it and in which level
On April 27 2010 19:12 purgerinho wrote: ppl, you don't understand one thing.. SC (and SC2) is a game like every other.. england invented a game (football), usa invented a game (basketball) and would you agree if they were asking money from everyone who plays football/basketball profesionally??? ofcourse you wouldn't agree.. well, blizzard is doing that. they want money for something it's not their ground. Kespa made SC goind for more then ten yrs and blizzard should be thankful for that. kespa is progaming organisation and it is like FIFA/NBA .. blizzard is here to invent games not to control who plays it and in which level
Totally different. Football and Starcraft are both games, but if I tell you what's involved in football you can recreate your own field and ball and have at it. If I tell you what's involved in starcraft then sure, go ahead and program your own game and play that and noone will sue you. If you want to play BLIZZARD's starcraft then you better pay them for it. It's the equivalent of playing football in a stadium you don't own. You have to rent it on a game by game basis, or get out. There's no "I bought my own ball already, you better let me use this stadium for free"
You're just interpreting things the way you want them to be interpreted^^; football is played with a ball, you don't pay for the stadium by buying a ball. Starcraft is played with the starcraft game code, a keyboard, mouse and on computers, and then you get to log into battle.net. Battle.net is your stadium, and you agree to blizzard's terms when playing on it. Terms of service, baby. Incidentally by buying starcraft you do not buy all rights to the game code either.
It's hard to broadcast starcraft games without broadcasting blizzard's copyrighted artwork, blizzard's copyrighted animations, blizzard's copyright sound effects, etc.
I think that's where the basis for asking royalties lies. Of course, if somebody could bring together the talent and resources to develop an open source/free culture game of similar quality as starcraft II, we'd have a much bigger e-sports scene =)
feefee yes, that is part of blizzard's greed, to force ppl play where blizzard says they should play.. it would be just same if england/usa says: ok, we will build one stadium and whole world should play on it.. who asked such a battle.net? only blizzard, players didn't coz with that greedy shit we are loosing.. monopoly, nothing else.. gaming community should say something against it, it's awful to agree with it.. battle.net my ass, the worst thing in SC2
everybody could do the same thing.. ok, you want to play on my computer, keyboard, mouse? you will pay every time you do that.. ohh, you want to watch broadcast on my stream? pay for it! etc, etc.... kespa made starcraft/broodwar, e-sport made blizzard and now they want to destroy everything.. they have enough money with wow shit..
Like I said, it's not just battle net but also all of the starcraft code. If people want to take the starcraft ruleset and code their own version then blizzard can't stop them, but as long as you want to play with blizzards stuff you're forced to abide by their rules. I'm not saying it's not greedy on blizzard's part, but from a legal or even sensible standpoint it's completely within blizzard's right to ask for royalties if you're planning on making money with something they spent 3 years to create. And yes, everybody could say "if you want to play on my computer you have to pay for it" (internet cafe's?). And all stream websites make revenue from forcing you to watch ads on them (much like korean starcraft TV channels force you to watch ads). Let's not pretend. Both Kespa and Blizzard are just trying to get as much money as they can. Which one of them you call greedy and which one you don't is personal opinion =P.
well, I dont get it. I dont know how people can elobarate in such ways.
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
This is just bullshit, seriously. I mean, lets even forget things like Blizzards World Wide Invitationals or the fact that they sponsored GomTV's first league with $10.000 or so, I'm too lazy to look it up.
What do you think was one of the main reasons why StarCraft became so popular in the first place, besides the game play? The battle.net, that's right. And that was for free all the time, maybe you forgot that. What do you think, how much money did Blizzard make by providing and maintaining an infrastructure like that not only for SC/BW, but also for the Diablo and Warcraft 2+ series? To say Blizzard "did nothing over the years to help competitive SC" is just.. wow nvm. I mean, you actually realize that Blizzard is there to sell computer games?
...
Besides that, I dont really understand why people care about KeSPa or e-Sports as it is. To be honest, I think E-Sport as it is sucks big time. Why? Because the non-Korean scene is only semi-pro. Personally, I would like to see a morrow, kolll, lzgamer, ret sc2 pro gaming team much more than some random Korean company hosted team with some random Korean players.
So there is SC/BW. Its popular, there is evolving a broadcasting infrastructure. Companies come and sponsor teams, it all gets professional. The sponsoring companies organize themselves in KeSPa, make their own pro-league and own all the players/licenses. That's how I understood it.
Where is the problem if KeSPa "dies"? Blizzard will make a deal with GomTV or Ongamenet/MBCgame without Kespa, who cares (someone already linked an article saying they negoiate with CJ entus). And if SC2 becomes a success, do you really think that the KeSPa companies or OGN/MBC wont adept? Just because they will have to pay a certain percentage of their revenue to Blizzard? This is just ridiculously stupid. As long as there is money to be made, there will be E-Sport. If Blizzard is too greedy and wants too much, people will just play something else because there are higher price moneys or whatever. If OGN/MBC dont support SC2, there will be a GomTV to do so.
I seriously dont see a problem. I just hope that there will be non-Korean progaming teams who can compete with them. I'm sick of having to watch Korean commercials or not being able to understand the commentators. It was funny for some time (PLAGGGGGGGUUUUUUUEEEEEEE), but not anymore.
€: when I come to think of it, maybe I'll sit here in 3 years watching Chinese TV seeing Chinese players playing professional SC2 instead of Korean.... omg no pls
feefee - SC is made from what? progamers in blizzard made tools to make a game? ofcourse they didn't, they use products made by someone else and they are earning XXXXXX more then ppl invented that tools..
blizzard's job is to MAKE games, KeSPA's job is to take them to proffesional lvl, our job is to play it.. only thing KeSPA needs is to buy license and that is it, no more fees
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
This is just bullshit, seriously. I mean, lets even forget things like Blizzards World Wide Invitationals or the fact that they sponsored GomTV's first league with $10.000 or so, I'm too lazy to look it up.
What do you think was one of the main reasons why StarCraft became so popular in the first place, besides the game play? The battle.net, that's right. And that was for free all the time, maybe you forgot that. What do you think, how much money did Blizzard make by providing and maintaining an infrastructure like that not only for SC/BW, but also for the Diablo and Warcraft 2+ series? To say Blizzard "did nothing over the years to help competitive SC" is just.. wow nvm. I mean, you actually realize that Blizzard is there to sell computer games?
...
Besides that, I dont really understand why people care about KeSPa or e-Sports as it is. To be honest, I think E-Sport as it is sucks big time. Why? Because the non-Korean scene is only semi-pro. Personally, I would like to see a morrow, kolll, lzgamer, ret sc2 pro gaming team much more than some random Korean company hosted team with some random Korean players.
So there is SC/BW. Its popular, there is evolving a broadcasting infrastructure. Companies come and sponsor teams, it all gets professional. The sponsoring companies organize themselves in KeSPa, make their own pro-league and own all the players/licenses. That's how I understood it.
Where is the problem if KeSPa "dies"? Blizzard will make a deal with GomTV or Ongamenet/MBCgame without Kespa, who cares (someone already linked an article saying they negoiate with CJ entus). And if SC2 becomes a success, do you really think that the KeSPa companies or OGN/MBC wont adept? Just because they will have to pay a certain percentage of their revenue to Blizzard? This is just ridiculously stupid. As long as there is money to be made, there will be E-Sport. If Blizzard is too greedy and wants too much, people will just play something else because there are higher price moneys or whatever. If OGN/MBC dont support SC2, there will be a GomTV to do so.
I seriously dont see a problem. I just hope that there will be non-Korean progaming teams who can compete with them. I'm sick of having to watch Korean commercials or not being able to understand the commentators. It was funny for some time (PLAGGGGGGGUUUUUUUEEEEEEE), but not anymore.
€: when I come to think of it, maybe I'll sit here in 3 years watching Chinese TV seeing Chinese players playing professional SC2 instead of Korean.... omg no pls
I think this seriously sums it up best if you ask me.
I'd also like to see a world wide ESPA instead of just a korean one and I seriously hope that'll become true.
KeSPA provides a stable environment for the corporate sponsors. Without the sponsors we wouldn't have players like Flash and Jaedong, simple as that. They are the reason BW is still fun to watch.
Yeh, Blizzard have done nothing to help competitive SC besides make the game and continue patching it for years.
I can't even really think of a developer besides Valve who would patch something as huge as replays into a game a few years after release.
There's nothing wrong with asking for royalties, but imposing a fee to run a tournament is a bit prohibitive. I'm thinking of some of the smaller countries in Asia, or even here in Australia where we just want to have our tourneys and a little bit of fun. We don't have loads of cash to splash around, and no-one wants to go against Blizzard's wishes if they can help it.
its quite funny to read all ur wannabe posts about this shit xDD u people dont understand a thing yet u talk as if u're working for kespa/blizzard and know everything, so pathetic :D
all i have to say is: Kespa sucks - at least at the moment ^.^ Blizz Pwns !
Dont mess with blizzard, kespa, u fools xD how could kespa actually ever win such a fight?
On April 27 2010 21:58 J1.au wrote: KeSPA provides a stable environment for the corporate sponsors. Without the sponsors we wouldn't have players like Flash and Jaedong, simple as that. They are the reason BW is still fun to watch.
a dubious statement at best.
KeSPA has fucked over several progamers because of silly rules and they pretty much keep the players on a tight leash.
Blizzard will find a new strong partner and kick off ESPORTS in other places than just KOREA. .
You guys are so delusional. You just believe any sort of basic marketing speech you're beeing thrown. Blizzard doesn't know what Esports are and doesn't give a flying fuck.
Lol they even give cash to Arena players calling them pro gamers and WoW esports hahahaha.
And you compare that to 10 years of Esports experience and its business models ?
Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
I agree.
No adobe doesn't require money for anything created using their programs, unless your counting the onetime cost of buying the program. Being an artstudent I have never heard of adobe trying to claim money from businesses making photoshoptutorials or anything like that (which is a decent market).
One could argue that Photoshop is sold for a high price, but compared to other programs used in production I'd say not. Keeping in mind that StarCraft 2 will be sold in three separate episodes I really can't see any reason for demanding royalties. It's free advertisement.
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
I agree.
No adobe doesn't require money for anything created using their programs, unless your counting the onetime cost of buying the program. Being an artstudent I have never heard of adobe trying to claim money from businesses making photoshoptutorials or anything like that (which is a decent market).
One could argue that Photoshop is sold for a high price, but compared to other programs used in production I'd say not. Keeping in mind that StarCraft 2 will be sold in three separate episodes I really can't see any reason for demanding royalties. It's free advertisement.
This here sums it up beautifully! Adobe does not charge you for selling a tutorial about Photoshop. They even encourage it. Why not, you are popularizing their software, so they can sell more. Blizzard has sold half of the total sold SCBW copies inside Korea. It has earned at least 150 mill form it. It is probably more that KeSPA has earned, or in a comparable range. WTF Blizzard, you greedy bastards.
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
You can play games, you own them because you bought them, but you can't use them to make money.
For example: you can't make channel on you playing various games and hope for google partnership. It's same stuff for every game including starcraft2.
Its a slightly different issue for Blizzard and Starcraft, as compared to Adobe and Photoshop. The number one thing in my mind is that, in order to broadcast Starcraft as an Esport, it necessitates showing the actual game itself... which includes artwork and sounds and so on that Blizzard have a copyright on.
When you produce an image on Photoshop, the image you display doesn't contain any copyrighted material that Adobe owns. You just made it with their program.
It does seem a little silly, to me, that Blizzard isn't entitled to some of the pie. Not necessarily a huge slab of it, but a slice nonetheless. I don't think that's greedy; I think that's probably just fair.
On April 28 2010 00:56 BlueSorc wrote: Its a slightly different issue for Blizzard and Starcraft, as compared to Adobe and Photoshop. The number one thing in my mind is that, in order to broadcast Starcraft as an Esport, it necessitates showing the actual game itself... which includes artwork and sounds and so on that Blizzard have a copyright on.
When you produce an image on Photoshop, the image you display doesn't contain any copyrighted material that Adobe owns. You just made it with their program.
It does seem a little silly, to me, that Blizzard isn't entitled to some of the pie. Not necessarily a huge slab of it, but a slice nonetheless. I don't think that's greedy; I think that's probably just fair.
Fact is, it's Blizzard's game and they can do whatever the fuck they want with it, including telling people that they have to pay them if they want to use it to make profits. It doesn't matter at all what any of us think they should be doing morally or ethically.
When you choose to buy their game you are doing it under the conditions they specify. They are not forcing anyone to do anything, anyone and everyone can choose to accept the conditions or not purchase the game.
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
That's an inaccurate comparison, and as I read through this thread, it melts my brain just thinking about it.
You cannot compare Adobe Photoshop to Starcraft II. Adobe Photoshop is a tool in of itself, that happens to be software. It's a program designed to give it's user creative power to develop things not related to photoshop. You are constantly injecting non-photoshop related images and things into photoshop.
Starcraft II is a video game. I understand the competitive nature to make a legitimate esport with it. But in the end, it's a video game that is designed to be played. You can do amazing things with photoshop; you can create illustrations, or touch up photographs.
You're not creating or modifying something non-starcraft II, when you play Starcraft II. You are playing Starcraft II. You may devise clever tricks and tactics, but all these strategies end up in the same end result. You either win the game of Starcraft, or you lose. it is a game.
Comparing Photoshop to Starcraft is akin to comparing a hammer to a chess board. they are not remotely the same, and have 2 different purposes completely. And as such, different rules apply to them.
On April 27 2010 22:07 Seijuro wrote: its quite funny to read all ur wannabe posts about this shit xDD u people dont understand a thing yet u talk as if u're working for kespa/blizzard and know everything, so pathetic :D
all i have to say is: Kespa sucks - at least at the moment ^.^ Blizz Pwns !
Dont mess with blizzard, kespa, u fools xD how could kespa actually ever win such a fight?
This post makes more sense when you read the paragraphs in reverse order.
I think that no matter what intrigues occur between blizzard and kespa, the huge demand from fans and interest from sponsors will ensure that SC2 will have a good professional scene.
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
That's an inaccurate comparison, and as I read through this thread, it melts my brain just thinking about it.
You cannot compare Adobe Photoshop to Starcraft II. Adobe Photoshop is a tool in of itself, that happens to be software. It's a program designed to give it's user creative power to develop things not related to photoshop. You are constantly injecting non-photoshop related images and things into photoshop.
Starcraft II is a video game. I understand the competitive nature to make a legitimate esport with it. But in the end, it's a video game that is designed to be played. You can do amazing things with photoshop; you can create illustrations, or touch up photographs.
You're not creating or modifying something non-starcraft II, when you play Starcraft II. You are playing Starcraft II. You may devise clever tricks and tactics, but all these strategies end up in the same end result. You either win the game of Starcraft, or you lose. it is a game.
Comparing Photoshop to Starcraft is akin to comparing a hammer to a chess board. they are not remotely the same, and have 2 different purposes completely. And as such, different rules apply to them.
You don't think a professional player that works as a gamer uses StarCraft as a 'tool' for his creativity? How about a commentator then?
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote: Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance - LAN latency - Other launcher features - Tournaments - Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
This is just bullshit, seriously. I mean, lets even forget things like Blizzards World Wide Invitationals or the fact that they sponsored GomTV's first league with $10.000 or so, I'm too lazy to look it up.
What do you think was one of the main reasons why StarCraft became so popular in the first place, besides the game play? The battle.net, that's right. And that was for free all the time, maybe you forgot that. What do you think, how much money did Blizzard make by providing and maintaining an infrastructure like that not only for SC/BW, but also for the Diablo and Warcraft 2+ series? To say Blizzard "did nothing over the years to help competitive SC" is just.. wow nvm. I mean, you actually realize that Blizzard is there to sell computer games?
...
Besides that, I dont really understand why people care about KeSPa or e-Sports as it is. To be honest, I think E-Sport as it is sucks big time. Why? Because the non-Korean scene is only semi-pro. Personally, I would like to see a morrow, kolll, lzgamer, ret sc2 pro gaming team much more than some random Korean company hosted team with some random Korean players.
So there is SC/BW. Its popular, there is evolving a broadcasting infrastructure. Companies come and sponsor teams, it all gets professional. The sponsoring companies organize themselves in KeSPa, make their own pro-league and own all the players/licenses. That's how I understood it.
Where is the problem if KeSPa "dies"? Blizzard will make a deal with GomTV or Ongamenet/MBCgame without Kespa, who cares (someone already linked an article saying they negoiate with CJ entus). And if SC2 becomes a success, do you really think that the KeSPa companies or OGN/MBC wont adept? Just because they will have to pay a certain percentage of their revenue to Blizzard? This is just ridiculously stupid. As long as there is money to be made, there will be E-Sport. If Blizzard is too greedy and wants too much, people will just play something else because there are higher price moneys or whatever. If OGN/MBC dont support SC2, there will be a GomTV to do so.
I seriously dont see a problem. I just hope that there will be non-Korean progaming teams who can compete with them. I'm sick of having to watch Korean commercials or not being able to understand the commentators. It was funny for some time (PLAGGGGGGGUUUUUUUEEEEEEE), but not anymore.
€: when I come to think of it, maybe I'll sit here in 3 years watching Chinese TV seeing Chinese players playing professional SC2 instead of Korean.... omg no pls
You summed it up right there. What incentive to players have to play 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to master the game if in 2 years everyone will move on to something else? It makes no sense to invest that much time and effort into something that will disappear in a very short time. If you don't have players dedicating that much time, then the quality of play will go down. I already see very bad micro in the SC2 streams. Even in the Nony streams, you see his micro mistakes constantly and cringe. For example, in the day9 streams of Nony's pheonix build, Nony tries to micro his phoenixes(through a moving shot) and looks like an Iccup D+ newb who is trying to micro his Mutas. Do you seriously want to watch players making a shit ton of mistakes or do you want to watch as perfect of a game played as possible?
What incentive to players have to play 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to master the game if in 2 years everyone will move on to something else?
What do you mean? SC:BW was there for 11 years and I'm pretty sure it will stick around for even more o.O
This is the biggest chance BW has of dying. Quite clearly it already happened on foreign scene. Yes there are still some players but competition is dead, all top players moved along.
Now what will happen in Korea will be decided entirely by some type of politics, imo.
What incentive to players have to play 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to master the game if in 2 years everyone will move on to something else?
What do you mean? SC:BW was there for 11 years and I'm pretty sure it will stick around for even more o.O
This is the biggest chance BW has of dying. Quite clearly it already happened on foreign scene. Yes there are still some players but competition is dead, all top players moved along.
Now what will happen in Korea will be decided entirely by some type of politics, imo.
Not just. What will happen in korea (assuming sc2 does become an e-sport) is due to the public's interest in SC1. At the very least, sc1 will stick around for at least a year after. Some players have stated they have no interest in tansitioning, and when sc1 stops, they will retire for good.
If Blizzard remains hardheaded and sc2 does not, sc1 will be around for a while.
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
I agree.
No adobe doesn't require money for anything created using their programs, unless your counting the onetime cost of buying the program. Being an artstudent I have never heard of adobe trying to claim money from businesses making photoshoptutorials or anything like that (which is a decent market).
One could argue that Photoshop is sold for a high price, but compared to other programs used in production I'd say not. Keeping in mind that StarCraft 2 will be sold in three separate episodes I really can't see any reason for demanding royalties. It's free advertisement.
The main argument is that photoshop contains very little copyrightable art, animations or sound effects, and a tutorial is made for educational purposes which falls under the "fair use" exemption.
A game broadcast contains MUCH more copyrightable content (artwork, animations, sound effects, the whole lot). In addition, there is no "fair use" exemption for broadcasting video game leagues.
If you record a movie of the screen in the cinema, you are infringing copyright too. I think the situation here is similar.
It seems that, unfortunately, Blizzard is within its rights to ask royalties for broadcasts made of its games. A sign that we need to make more free culture video games or abolish copyright.
On April 27 2010 16:28 Limenade wrote: oh yea btw heres the list of players being accused of rigging matches in korea to make money, just further corrupting e-sports in korea and kespa's name so who cares
Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go)
That has next to nothing to do with the topic at hand, why would you bring it up?
Because it also could be a major reasoning behind why Kespa has no leverage anymore against blizzard since there is a good chance many of the pro gamers could even go to jail if these accusations against them turn out to be true. Thus making it even more of a reason behind why blizzard should not associate with Kespa and should look else where to find a new partner in E-Sports one that was not related to multi million dollar gambling related scandals that involved Blizzard's product.
i like how you sourced an article that sourced us as the source.
is kespa making profit off of this game? sure, probably.
are they making a LARGE profit? (some users have made up ridiculous numbers, saying that they've made billions of dollars off of this...) the answer is probably not.
kespa is simply an association of a number of high ranking officials from the various chaebols/corporations that sponsor the pro teams. they deserve to be part of the executive board because the companies they represent pay the gamer's salaries, housing, food, uniforms, etc. this is no small amount, mind you. of course, these companies aren't doing it out of their own good will or whatever. they know it's good advertisement and exposure to males in the 10s-30s. but the fact remains that they definitely have invested a lot of money into this whole esports thing.
OGN and MBCgame don't make a lot of money either. i believe MBCgame almost went bankrupt a few years back and OGN has had its fair share of financial problems too.
they made 2 mil on selling a virtual pony that an undergrad could make in maya/blender in a few days for god sakes, why do they feel the need to demand royalties where no other companies [to my knowledge mind you] have done before
On April 28 2010 04:04 j4s wrote: an undergrad could make in maya/blender in a few days for god sakes
A few days? it has a very minimal texture, and re-uses the same rig as the other mounts. It's at best 4 hours of work for modeling and texturing the armor piece on the head.
On April 28 2010 04:04 j4s wrote: why isn't one cash cow enough for blizzard
they made 2 mil on selling a virtual pony that an undergrad could make in maya/blender in a few days for god sakes, why do they feel the need to demand royalties where no other companies [to my knowledge mind you] have done before
On April 28 2010 01:50 olof wrote: You don't think a professional player that works as a gamer uses StarCraft as a 'tool' for his creativity? How about a commentator then?
As has been stated by others, when you create something in Photoshop, the final product is entirely divorced from any copyrighted material that Adobe has any claim to. However, a commentator or player requires use of the various assets in the Starcraft game that DO belong to Blizzard to display his creativity.
The better analogy would be that you're using Photoshop, but there's also some piece of art that belong's to Adobe that you want to put into your work. You'd still need permission (and potentially pay a fee) for that.
blizzard are right because they got the copyright for the game but think 2 sec ok ? in the law they are also right but that dont mean what they are doing is right for the fans and the players , and of course the current pro gamer .
they are the first game company who would ask for that much royalty , tournament fee , in fact they want to control everything and get any numbers of money they want for anything .
they ask for : Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2 and only them . Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard. KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2
these term mean alot more that you think if u were kespa or anyone else , you accept something like that ? hell no .
well if you keep support blizzard now you know what they ask .
if you support e-sport , you better support kespa because they are realy the less evil . blizzard are only greedy bastard who want money , and plz dont say they care about the fans , they care about the money... and they dont need more money if you think about wow and the sales they will get for sc2 ( 3 games ) .
On April 27 2010 22:07 Seijuro wrote: its quite funny to read all ur wannabe posts about this shit xDD u people dont understand a thing yet u talk as if u're working for kespa/blizzard and know everything, so pathetic :D
all i have to say is: Kespa sucks - at least at the moment ^.^ Blizz Pwns !
Dont mess with blizzard, kespa, u fools xD how could kespa actually ever win such a fight?
This post makes more sense when you read the paragraphs in reverse order.
I think that no matter what intrigues occur between blizzard and kespa, the huge demand from fans and interest from sponsors will ensure that SC2 will have a good professional scene.
it makes the most sense when you read all the lines in reverse order, not just the paragraphs
On April 28 2010 01:50 olof wrote: You don't think a professional player that works as a gamer uses StarCraft as a 'tool' for his creativity? How about a commentator then?
As has been stated by others, when you create something in Photoshop, the final product is entirely divorced from any copyrighted material that Adobe has any claim to. However, a commentator or player requires use of the various assets in the Starcraft game that DO belong to Blizzard to display his creativity.
The better analogy would be that you're using Photoshop, but there's also some piece of art that belong's to Adobe that you want to put into your work. You'd still need permission (and potentially pay a fee) for that.
The point was being made about creating tutorials for photoshop and then selling them. So you are basically earning money of something adobe made. You are also showing the tool inside your tutorial. And yet, Adobe finds it useful and fruitful for people to sell tutorial that advertise their product. And not just Adobe. Ton of companies would find it ok to use their game in a professional league. Is Blizz going to ask for royalties from WCG or is this shit only for Koreans?
On April 27 2010 23:56 crappen wrote: Somehow I kind of feel a distance to play starcraft reading this. Just feels wrong that blizzard owns my playing and creativity in game. Players makes a good game, blizzard simply has provided tools to do so, like the adobe photoshop example, is adobe needing license and money if someone was to launch a competition in similar fascion?
That's an inaccurate comparison, and as I read through this thread, it melts my brain just thinking about it.
You cannot compare Adobe Photoshop to Starcraft II. Adobe Photoshop is a tool in of itself, that happens to be software. It's a program designed to give it's user creative power to develop things not related to photoshop. You are constantly injecting non-photoshop related images and things into photoshop.
Starcraft II is a video game. I understand the competitive nature to make a legitimate esport with it. But in the end, it's a video game that is designed to be played. You can do amazing things with photoshop; you can create illustrations, or touch up photographs.
You're not creating or modifying something non-starcraft II, when you play Starcraft II. You are playing Starcraft II. You may devise clever tricks and tactics, but all these strategies end up in the same end result. You either win the game of Starcraft, or you lose. it is a game.
Comparing Photoshop to Starcraft is akin to comparing a hammer to a chess board. they are not remotely the same, and have 2 different purposes completely. And as such, different rules apply to them.
You don't think a professional player that works as a gamer uses StarCraft as a 'tool' for his creativity? How about a commentator then?
Creativity to win the game of starcraft. When you use a hammer to build a house. You didn't build a house to win the game of hammer. I covered this in my previous post, but you failed to read it, or comprehend accurately my point.
The Commentator's tool would be language to enrich the enjoyment of watching someone else playing and trying to win the game.
I dont think the royalties thing revolves around the legality of it, i dont think they're particularly pissed off at the fact the eula terms have been infringed. Asking for royalties is a wasy to push KeSPA around, its useful in that it determines the roles of each of the companies withing this relation that both KeSPA and Blizzard have to asume. This way Blizzard is just asserting its dominant possition.
I would agree that SC is not the tool but rather the medium but let me ask you something: Would you watch two AI computers battle it out on match point? Even if it was broadcasted with the same spectacular deviced it is done now?
The game is being watched to enjoy what these people, progamers, with their builds, skill, game sanse (tools) make out of Broodwar (medium).
What incentive to players have to play 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to master the game if in 2 years everyone will move on to something else?
What do you mean? SC:BW was there for 11 years and I'm pretty sure it will stick around for even more o.O
This is the biggest chance BW has of dying. Quite clearly it already happened on foreign scene. Yes there are still some players but competition is dead, all top players moved along.
Now what will happen in Korea will be decided entirely by some type of politics, imo.
Hopefully starcraft still has some good years left to come. If not, I will look back with nostalgia on the best era of esport the world has and will ever see.
Hopefully starcraft still has some good years left to come. If not, I will look back with nostalgia on the best era of esport the world has and will ever see.
Without Kespa and a great deal of warmhearted fans , without the early staff's effort in blz, where are you? blz!!
Today blz is still the best computer game company in the world for a large of guys, but if the gradually established sentiment and the sc tours gone, you blz are nothing and spoiler.
Because we fans are closely related with sc tours and stars and Starleague and Kespa.It seemed Kespa has done more for fans than you blz. It is Kespa that let game become the sport and created game stars who we favorite.
Forget the redundant benifit, your work and works are for fans and for the world entertainment, because you are the blz ,still the best!
as long as korean bw progaming scene is unaffected, i don't really give a shit. but if the korean progaming scene is disbanded, i am going to be very very very angry
Yes I agree that Blizzard has the right to SC/SC2 and also has the right to enforce their claim on it.
HOWEVER, just because you have the right to do so, doesn't necessarily mean it is 'right' to use that right. (get it? ;p)
It may be important to identify whether... KeSpa is making shit loads of money with BW tourneys/leagues and Bliz is claiming a fair share of the profit, OR KeSPa isn't making much money and Bliz is demanding unreasonable percentage of the profit, which would hurt/take down KeSPa.
Without that knowledge, it is pointless to argue whether we should support Bliz or not. If it's the former, I'm sure KESpa will come around and accept the deal. It's better to have a piece than nothing.
If it's the latter.. well hopefully we'll find out the truth and give our support to KeSPa.
and do those who hate KeSPA because they only broadcast their games in Korean and you don't understand the language... don't be stupid.. I mean, like some other guy posted, would you watch a random b.net player? You only watch those leagues because they have turned SC into an art form - like a brilliantly played chess match.
whether the 'foreigners' (non-koreans in this context) would be able to better Koreans in SC2. Keep in mind that the popularity of SC is most likely to carry on to SC2, which means pro-SC2 leagues will form and there will be Pro-gamers practicing the game 24/7.
Or.. would other countries, such as US and what not, take such course and form a league of their own, giving birth to their own pro-SC2 gamers that play the game 24/7... ;p
On April 28 2010 04:45 Oddysay wrote: blizzard are right because they got the copyright for the game but think 2 sec ok ? in the law they are also right but that dont mean what they are doing is right for the fans and the players , and of course the current pro gamer .
they are the first game company who would ask for that much royalty , tournament fee , in fact they want to control everything and get any numbers of money they want for anything .
they ask for : Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2 and only them . Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard. KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2
these term mean alot more that you think if u were kespa or anyone else , you accept something like that ? hell no .
well if you keep support blizzard now you know what they ask .
if you support e-sport , you better support kespa because they are realy the less evil . blizzard are only greedy bastard who want money , and plz dont say they care about the fans , they care about the money... and they dont need more money if you think about wow and the sales they will get for sc2 ( 3 games ) .
but no , they want more
all those articles are for sc2 right? not for sc1. I doubt sc1 contains any article that covers the scope of esports broadcasting
as for sc2, it is currently rated R in korea, so it will be very difficult for blizzard to replicate sc1's success
I'm with Blizzard on this. It's their creation, their rights and it's time for someone to show KeSPA where they really belong and what their using isn't theirs.
two greedy corporations duking it out. But its lose-lose to us starcraft fans. Im sorry, but us consumers who love korean e-sports gets nothing from blizzard from paying royalty to them.
I really have to stick to korean corporations this time. I hope they will somehow make it through.
I never had, and i will never will spend a single peny on any blizzard products forever.
sure, they only lost one out of a bajillion customers buying their products, but i think they have gone too far this time.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
On April 28 2010 17:10 SturmAddict wrote: two greedy corporations duking it out. But its lose-lose to us starcraft fans. Im sorry, but us consumers who love korean e-sports gets nothing from blizzard from paying royalty to them.
I really have to stick to korean corporations this time. I hope they will somehow make it through.
I never had, and i will never will spend a single peny on any blizzard products forever.
sure, they only lost one out of a bajillion customers buying their products, but i think they have gone too far this time.
Korean esports only exists because of Blizzard. And why would they give a shit about people like you if you never bought any of their products?
"Sure, I pirate all your games. But you're the greedy bastards wanting me to PAY for things! How dare you! I will never spend money on your games even though I already don't!"
who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
As a starcraft e-sports fan, im not really interested in who made the game, im more interested in how the game is pan out; and the only place where this is successfully shown , is in korea, organized by korean corporations.
If starcraft was played by only backho and his ilk, it would have never been as successful as it is today. The players are very important at defining the game, much less the game itself.
You even see grandma's and mummy's watching people watching games in korea. Do you think blizzard can ever do that outside korea? no way hozey. As i said, they saying they are going to build e-sports are mostly just to make us fans warm and fuzzy inside.
At the same time they removed competitive LAN play , made an "awesome" ladder system; made some feature's server sided which will induce lag in players in places with sub-par internet connection (which is 75% of the world?),
I just cant get myself to support this kind of company, really. Not to mention they want to go worldwide when they really arent. Players from indonesia ,bangladesh, india will have to call cross borders just to attempt to get a fix on their games.
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote: who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
Neither of which are allowed. You, and likely millions of other SC fans who watch SC but do not play or own it (which, from what I've heard, may be the majority of Korean fans, especially the fangirls) are deriving benefit and entertainment from Blizzard's product, without them receiving any compensation.
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote: who said im pirating? ever heard renting/borrowing?
Remind me again why they, or anyone really, should give a shit about what people like you think?
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote: As a starcraft e-sports fan, im not really interested in who made the game, im more interested in how the game is pan out; and the only place where this is successfully shown , is in korea, organized by korean corporations.
If starcraft was played by only backho and his ilk, it would have never been as successful as it is today. The players are very important at defining the game, much less the game itself.
Really? Where are all the other non-Blizzard games with their competitive play and their famous players? I thought the game doesn't matter, its the community and the players? Why does this only happen to Blizzards RTS?
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote: I just cant get myself to support this kind of company, really. Not to mention they want to go worldwide when they really arent. Players from indonesia ,bangladesh, india will have to call cross borders just to attempt to get a fix on their games.
Uh, I'm currently in India for the past year and videogames are such a tiny market here, I don't really blame them.
On April 28 2010 17:36 SturmAddict wrote: At the same time they removed competitive LAN play , made an "awesome" ladder system; made some feature's server sided which will induce lag in players in places with sub-par internet connection
lolol. "Damn this company for doing this to a game I was going to acquire without paying for! I demand value for my $0 and anything less is unacceptable!"
On April 28 2010 16:43 RA wrote: I'm with Blizzard on this. It's their creation, their rights and it's time for someone to show KeSPA where they really belong and what their using isn't theirs.
thank god !!! finally someone who truly understands it : )
On April 28 2010 17:25 FieryBalrog wrote: Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything.
I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers. If you look at blizzard's maps and strategy guide (holy shit lol), that is what competitive SC would be like if we didn't have the community. You can argue that of course nobody knew how to play when the game first came out but blizzard HASN'T UPDATED ANY MAPS AT ALL. even BW 1.16.1 would be shit on terrible maps. conversely we can still have some form of semi-competitive 1.00 with well-designed maps. The game is "beautifully competitive" not so much because it's well patched (although that's very helpful), but rather that we have professional organizations and mapmakers that can mitigate imbalances.
As said before numerous times in this thread, blizzard hasn't done shit for esports. If blizzard released SC2, ran a very good server, constantly updated maps and patches, didn't take out lan, etc. then kespa should pay for using their game. But if what blizzard has done with competitive BW is any example, they don't deserve it.
On April 28 2010 17:25 FieryBalrog wrote: Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything.
I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers.
"Sole credit" goes to no one. The map makers did not do that much. For a while they essentially just tweaked off Lost Temple, which was *gasp* a Blizzard map.
However, you guys vastly underestimate the credit that goes to Blizzard for creating such an elegantly designed game that allowed so much evolution, strategy and competition. If the map makers could balance a game, if the community could make any game competitive, then they could do that for any RTS.
But they can't. They don't. And they won't.
Its only the underlying genius of SC BW- the units, the races, the combat engine- that allowed anything to happen at all. The community has provided a huge added value, has done a ton of analysis and balancing and thinking and strategizing, but if they could do that for any game then well we wouldn't be here on a site dedicated to a 12 year old strategy game developed by one company.
Obviously Blizzard did not know the detailed strategies and how the game would be played or exactly what maps were optimal. I mean, if they did, thats actually a problem since it means the game is incredibly shallow. No developer SHOULD be able to figure out the depths of his own game. Its the community's responsibility to develop new strategies, new ideas and play the game.
On April 28 2010 18:12 writer22816 wrote: I don't agree that the sole credit of BW's balance goes to Blizzard. If anything it goes to the mapmakers. If you look at blizzard's maps and strategy guide (holy shit lol), that is what competitive SC would be like if we didn't have the community. You can argue that of course nobody knew how to play when the game first came out but blizzard HASN'T UPDATED ANY MAPS AT ALL. even BW 1.16.1 would be shit on terrible maps. conversely we can still have some form of semi-competitive 1.00 with well-designed maps. The game is "beautifully competitive" not so much because it's well patched (although that's very helpful), but rather that we have professional organizations and mapmakers that can mitigate imbalances.
Look at the SC patch notes. The Blizzard map pool was receiving updates until mid-2006. They also made attempts to add more tournament-usable maps until about 2005 IIRC (some of them got used in events) and held events like the Mystery Map Invitational (which, interestingly has quite a few TL names--Rekrul, Testie, and Day[9] played in it, and Mora and Bill307 designed the maps) to try and get some good maps to play on, but it's very obvious that whatever in-house mapmakers Blizzard could field pale in comparison to what an army of map-makers throughout the fanbase can do.
As far as getting the rights to put maps like Python or more recent Korean tournament maps into the "official" map pool, they'd likely want to acquire the rights first (for legal peace of mind), and that could potentially involve a legal nightmare that nobody wants to deal with (with regard to who 'owns' the content of the map). At that point, the potential trouble that could get bogged down in was greater than the potential good it could do, in any sense. Certainly, Blizzard went far beyond any developer in the world would possibly do.
its so funny..... u guys trying so hard to get a nice little conversation in this thread with useless arguments which are of no relevance... blizz created this game, without them we wouldnt even be able to play bw, it's as simple as that kespa has no right to do whatever they like, blizz is fighting back and they can only win
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
It's the other way around, Blizzard showing arrogance and giving kespa no ground to work on. Blizzard sell games, but why stop there when they can get greedy and own the place. Yes they can do what they want, but not sure I want to invest my time in something that jeopardise the future of esport like this.
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
It's the other way around, Blizzard showing arrogance and giving kespa no ground to work on. Blizzard sell games, but why stop there when they can get greedy and own the place. Yes they can do what they want, but not sure I want to invest my time in something that jeopardise the future of esport like this.
BS, big big BS sorry, but at least read through a few things and get information before u talk back..
On April 28 2010 16:43 RA wrote: I'm with Blizzard on this. It's their creation, their rights and it's time for someone to show KeSPA where they really belong and what their using isn't theirs.
thank god !!! finally someone who truly understands it : )
Blizz > kespa
go back to work on sc2 you two plz .
stupidity got no name .... wait
seriously try to read this topic from page 1 and say that again ok and most important , THINK .
we dont care if that blizz > kespa or kespa > blizz
people are talking about e-sport and pro gaming .
most people dont care if blizzard are right ( for the law and copyright ) , yes they create the game
and they can do anything they want , but no other game company ask for 5 % of what blizzard ask to kespa right now .
and yes they need to agree to the copyright FOR SC1 AND SC2
damn think ! yes blizzard make the best game , i realy love them most of the time but that dont mean they got the right ( moral right , for the fans and players ) to do what they are doing right now clearly show they just want more money .
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
It's the other way around, Blizzard showing arrogance and giving kespa no ground to work on. Blizzard sell games, but why stop there when they can get greedy and own the place. Yes they can do what they want, but not sure I want to invest my time in something that jeopardise the future of esport like this.
BS, big big BS sorry, but at least read through a few things and get information before u talk back..
Tell me more. Please, tell me more. I don't know what's true or not true in this thread so tell me more on the situation and provide sources.
On April 28 2010 18:46 bull0563 wrote: They made a game. People buy the game. Profit. No need to get greedy and try to harm a competitive sport.
u dont understand a single thing about all this what would you do if u worked for blizz and kespa showing such disrespect towards you and trying to fuck with ya
It's the other way around, Blizzard showing arrogance and giving kespa no ground to work on.
They've been negotiating for 3 years and KESPA hasn't moved an inch.
KESPA just wants free profits off a new game and has no interest in sharing, and did their best to kill GOM.
Its also an awful association for the players. I would LOVE to see them collapse and a new partnership begin, for SC2 if there will be a scene for it.
well LetMeShine we know some of the copyright blizzard want
and we also know they want kespa to agree for SC1 and SC2 .
and why people talk about disrespect towards blizzard from kespa now ? if you get any source show them or stop say that , they just cant agree to what blizzard want because that way too much.
blizzard are curently showing no respects for fans , players , and pro gamer right now , and i can give you many source and link . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THAT WAS POSTED FROM SOMEONE IN THIS TOPIC , ALL THANK TO HIM >
Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
Have been reading through most of the comments here and I find one of the arguments from the pro KeSPA people, quite amusing. As I was amazed by the fact that there's basically no one who have commented on these posts, I'd like to give my 2 cents about that.
The arguments I am talking about is the comparisons between starcraft and Photoshop/other design or coding software used, and regarding whether or not the companies using their software are paying royalties or not.
I think the answer here is quite simple. Compare the price between Starcraft and say, for example, Photoshop. Starcraft when that was new, probably had a price of about 40-60$, while Photoshop CS5 is going to cost around 1500$ (just checked quickly on adobe.com, so this is not a precise number).
Now, why is that? Well, from what I understand - a big reason for why these types of softwares are that expensive, is because you are free to use them to make money. Simple as that.
That should probably nullify that, in some way, silly argument of why Blizzard should not be able to expect some kind of compensation from companies who are profiting on a product that they do not own in that sense. I do not see how this should be different than the music industry for example.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
Well, why wasn't Warcraft 3 a sucess like SCBW in Korea. Because real progamers didn't want to switch the game. I don't think Blizz ever had in mind competitive gameplay and progaming when they designed SC and SCBW. It just turned out to be like that. Thats why they didn't have this fucking shit about broadcasting rights and royalties in their EULA. On the other hand they designed WC3 to be competitive and it still didn't went well in Korea. That's because you have an army of kids in Korea practicing like crazy SCBW. Why would they suddenly switch to something else with risks of that game not becoming popular. The same thing will happen to SC2 in Korea. In the rest of the world it will also be the same thing with SC2 as with WC3. There will be some tournaments, maybe even a WCG (if Blizz doen't ask for royalties), it will be popular, but that has nothing to do with it being a professional sport with a regular leagues, big sponsors, players who live only by playing the game. And that means we might never see level of skill that we currently see in SCBW in Korea. I hope it never dies .
On April 28 2010 22:25 Oddysay wrote: well LetMeShine we know some of the copyright blizzard want
and we also know they want kespa to agree for SC1 and SC2 .
and why people talk about disrespect towards blizzard from kespa now ? if you get any source show them or stop say that , they just cant agree to what blizzard want because that way too much.
blizzard are curently showing no respects for fans , players , and pro gamer right now , and i can give you many source and link . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THAT WAS POSTED FROM SOMEONE IN THIS TOPIC , ALL THANK TO HIM >
Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
Why did you post this? Everyone is just going to ignore or try to justify it.
Why anyone who genuinely supports Esports could be against KeSPA is beyond me. You're talking about a government recognized entity that regulates programing in Korea. Try asking Obama or any other government in the west about forming a government entity for progaming and you'll get laughed at. Do you people realize that KeSPA not only looks over starcraft, but also every other professionally played game also?
KeSPA is the little guy here, Blizzard/Activision is the giant coming to take over. Get that through your thick heads, you biased idiots. Nothing good will come from the demise of KeSPA. Every establishment has problems, no organization is perfect, but you need a central authority, and KeSPA is filling that role in Korea. Blizzard did what they do best. They made a game and got paid for it. They didn't contribute to Esports in anyway. Their aim in Making starcraft wasn't in promoting Esports. It just HAPPENED to be perfect for Esports in Korea. Now Blizzard is trying to reap the benefits of that. I mean, there was simply no reason to remove LAN except to centralize everything so they can control all that goes on.
I read a few pages and always the same few people and their talking points, and then the mindless mass eating it up.
On April 28 2010 23:14 shinwa wrote: Have been reading through most of the comments here and I find one of the arguments from the pro KeSPA people, quite amusing. As I was amazed by the fact that there's basically no one who have commented on these posts, I'd like to give my 2 cents about that.
The arguments I am talking about is the comparisons between starcraft and Photoshop/other design or coding software used, and regarding whether or not the companies using their software are paying royalties or not.
I think the answer here is quite simple. Compare the price between Starcraft and say, for example, Photoshop. Starcraft when that was new, probably had a price of about 40-60$, while Photoshop CS5 is going to cost around 1500$ (just checked quickly on adobe.com, so this is not a precise number).
Now, why is that? Well, from what I understand - a big reason for why these types of softwares are that expensive, is because you are free to use them to make money. Simple as that.
That should probably nullify that, in some way, silly argument of why Blizzard should not be able to expect some kind of compensation from companies who are profiting on a product that they do not own in that sense. I do not see how this should be different than the music industry for example.
Then Blizz can charge more for the game copy that doesn't have those stupid terms in the EULA and leave the organization of eSPORTs to somebody else.
I think this is definitely a complicated issue in which Blizzard and KeSPA both have some responsibility to do what's best for eSports and the fans. I think both organizations have shown themselves to be unreasonable at times, so I hope that an agreement can be made.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
Well, why wasn't Warcraft 3 a sucess like SCBW in Korea. Because real progamers didn't want to switch the game. I don't think Blizz ever had in mind competitive gameplay and progaming when they designed SC and SCBW. It just turned out to be like that. Thats why they didn't have this fucking shit about broadcasting rights and royalties in their EULA. On the other hand they designed WC3 to be competitive and it still didn't went well in Korea. That's because you have an army of kids in Korea practicing like crazy SCBW. Why would they suddenly switch to something else with risks of that game not becoming popular. The same thing will happen to SC2 in Korea. In the rest of the world it will also be the same thing with SC2 as with WC3. There will be some tournaments, maybe even a WCG (if Blizz doen't ask for royalties), it will be popular, but that has nothing to do with it being a professional sport with a regular leagues, big sponsors, players who live only by playing the game. And that means we might never see level of skill that we currently see in SCBW in Korea. I hope it never dies .
On April 28 2010 22:25 Oddysay wrote: well LetMeShine we know some of the copyright blizzard want
and we also know they want kespa to agree for SC1 and SC2 .
and why people talk about disrespect towards blizzard from kespa now ? if you get any source show them or stop say that , they just cant agree to what blizzard want because that way too much.
blizzard are curently showing no respects for fans , players , and pro gamer right now , and i can give you many source and link . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THAT WAS POSTED FROM SOMEONE IN THIS TOPIC , ALL THANK TO HIM >
Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.
>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.
The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles
>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.
Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.
>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다
The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.
>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.
Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)
>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.
Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2
>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.
Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard
>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.
On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.
>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.
Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".
>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.
A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"
(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)
>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.
(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)
>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.
(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))
(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) ---
So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!
Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!
Why did you post this? Everyone is just going to ignore or try to justify it.
Why anyone who genuinely supports Esports could be against KeSPA is beyond me. You're talking about a government recognized entity that regulates programing in Korea. Try asking Obama or any other government in the west about forming a government entity for progaming and you'll get laughed at. Do you people realize that KeSPA not only looks over starcraft, but also every other professionally played game also?
KeSPA is the little guy here, Blizzard/Activision is the giant coming to take over. Get that through your thick heads, you biased idiots. Nothing good will come from the demise of KeSPA. Every establishment has problems, no organization is perfect, but you need a central authority, and KeSPA is filling that role in Korea. Blizzard did what they do best. They made a game and got paid for it. They didn't contribute to Esports in anyway. Their aim in Making starcraft wasn't in promoting Esports. It just HAPPENED to be perfect for Esports in Korea. Now Blizzard is trying to reap the benefits of that. I mean, there was simply no reason to remove LAN except to centralize everything so they can control all that goes on.
I read a few pages and always the same few people and their talking points, and then the mindless mass eating it up.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
Well, why wasn't Warcraft 3 a sucess like SCBW in Korea. Because real progamers didn't want to switch the game. I don't think Blizz ever had in mind competitive gameplay and progaming when they designed SC and SCBW. It just turned out to be like that. Thats why they didn't have this fucking shit about broadcasting rights and royalties in their EULA. On the other hand they designed WC3 to be competitive and it still didn't went well in Korea. That's because you have an army of kids in Korea practicing like crazy SCBW. Why would they suddenly switch to something else with risks of that game not becoming popular. The same thing will happen to SC2 in Korea. In the rest of the world it will also be the same thing with SC2 as with WC3. There will be some tournaments, maybe even a WCG (if Blizz doen't ask for royalties), it will be popular, but that has nothing to do with it being a professional sport with a regular leagues, big sponsors, players who live only by playing the game. And that means we might never see level of skill that we currently see in SCBW in Korea. I hope it never dies .
On April 28 2010 23:14 shinwa wrote: Have been reading through most of the comments here and I find one of the arguments from the pro KeSPA people, quite amusing. As I was amazed by the fact that there's basically no one who have commented on these posts, I'd like to give my 2 cents about that.
The arguments I am talking about is the comparisons between starcraft and Photoshop/other design or coding software used, and regarding whether or not the companies using their software are paying royalties or not.
I think the answer here is quite simple. Compare the price between Starcraft and say, for example, Photoshop. Starcraft when that was new, probably had a price of about 40-60$, while Photoshop CS5 is going to cost around 1500$ (just checked quickly on adobe.com, so this is not a precise number).
Now, why is that? Well, from what I understand - a big reason for why these types of softwares are that expensive, is because you are free to use them to make money. Simple as that.
That should probably nullify that, in some way, silly argument of why Blizzard should not be able to expect some kind of compensation from companies who are profiting on a product that they do not own in that sense. I do not see how this should be different than the music industry for example.
Then Blizz can charge more for the game copy that doesn't have those stupid terms in the EULA and leave the organization of eSPORTs to somebody else.
So you would seriously consider paying >1500$ for a computer game, instead of just letting KeSPA (and other potential organisations) pay some percentage of their revenue they get from SC?
If you know anything about ESports, it's impossible to deny that KeSPA played a major role in making BW a legend. True, Bliz created BW. HOWEVER, without KeSPA, BW would've died off YEARS ago, yet thx to KeSPA and other E-sports organizers BW is still yet one of the most played games out there.
It would be a grand mistake by Bliz to deny E-sports organizers the freedom and financial means to promote THEIR game for free. It is the best marketing any game company could ask for. Any other company would die to have their game marketed in such a way.
I seriously wish Bliz would listen to their fanbase and plan their marketing plans in ways it would be a win-win for both sides. User was banned for this post.
Well Blizzard surely isn't doing this for the love of e-sport. They didn't care for Korean E-sport so long and now with the upcoming sc2 release all this stuff happens? All they care about is $$$, sure they are a big company, can't blame them, but you dont get many fans this way.
Don't you guys realize how far KeSPA has come to grow in size, having all their match ups air in Korean TV, with all the sponsorships.. those things don't happen over night.
It'll be a HUGE set back for E-Sports development if KeSPA's to go down.
Yes someone will take over, but it won't be like the BW scene for a long time.
On April 28 2010 23:32 ZeitgeistMovie wrote: Why anyone who genuinely supports Esports could be against KeSPA is beyond me. You're talking about a government recognized entity that regulates programing in Korea. Try asking Obama or any other government in the west about forming a government entity for progaming and you'll get laughed at. Do you people realize that KeSPA not only looks over starcraft, but also every other professionally played game also?
You post this like it's big news? People like WaxAngel who've been reporting on this game since 2002 have been around through all of KeSPA's existence. You think they might know more than you do about it? You think there might be a legitimate reason for the patent dislike of KeSPA consistent across a large majority of people who've been around this community for any reasonable length of time?
On April 29 2010 01:26 Zeratool wrote: Fierybalrog, you are tool and a moron.
On April 29 2010 01:59 wiesel wrote: Well Blizzard surely isn't doing this for the love of e-sport. They didn't care for Korean E-sport so long and now with the upcoming sc2 release all this stuff happens? All they care about is $$$, sure they are a big company, can't blame them, but you dont get many fans this way.
Do you think Kespa, an organization made up of and representing the billion dollar companies that sponsor the proteams, gives a shit about Esports anymore than how it can be used to their maximum benefit for advertising purposes?
At least Blizzard has a vested interest in the game past "how can this be marketed for maximum advertising effect?"
Please all keep in mind that laws are laws. Some poeple here stated "moral laws" which dont exist in free marked and are only used for marketing issues, not like anyone really cares about all this "green planet" all they do is marketing, keep that in mind.
The argumentation wheater kespa is better then blizzard or blizzard is better then kespa is like trying to compare an orange to an apple.
This whole argument can only be about what will happen to the scene in korea and what is blizzard going to do. We dont exactly know, we can only predict what economy has shown in previous years and what economy showed us many many times and see if that would apply to this case. Thats all you can do.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
Well, why wasn't Warcraft 3 a sucess like SCBW in Korea. Because real progamers didn't want to switch the game. I don't think Blizz ever had in mind competitive gameplay and progaming when they designed SC and SCBW. It just turned out to be like that. Thats why they didn't have this fucking shit about broadcasting rights and royalties in their EULA. On the other hand they designed WC3 to be competitive and it still didn't went well in Korea. That's because you have an army of kids in Korea practicing like crazy SCBW. Why would they suddenly switch to something else with risks of that game not becoming popular. The same thing will happen to SC2 in Korea. In the rest of the world it will also be the same thing with SC2 as with WC3. There will be some tournaments, maybe even a WCG (if Blizz doen't ask for royalties), it will be popular, but that has nothing to do with it being a professional sport with a regular leagues, big sponsors, players who live only by playing the game. And that means we might never see level of skill that we currently see in SCBW in Korea. I hope it never dies .
WC3 was the most successful esport in Korea since Brood War until a major maprigging scandal basically killed it.
Blizzard and Activision combined. They have billions of dollars. Why don't they create another company and just keep it under the Activision Blizzard umbrella.
Edit: this other company would replace KeSPA. Maybe they could bring CAL back. haha
On April 29 2010 04:10 fellcrow wrote: Blizzard and Activision combined. They have billions of dollars. Why don't they create another company and just keep it under the Activision Blizzard umbrella.
Edit: this other company would replace KeSPA. Maybe they could bring CAL back. haha
Not in Korea it won't. And that's what matters in whether or not SC2 becomes a big e-sport there. Worldwide Blizzard will do fine (sales and such) regardless, this is more about the fate of SC2 in Korea.
On April 29 2010 04:10 fellcrow wrote: Blizzard and Activision combined. They have billions of dollars. Why don't they create another company and just keep it under the Activision Blizzard umbrella.
Edit: this other company would replace KeSPA. Maybe they could bring CAL back. haha
Do you seriously think that blizzard would risk that much money? No way Jose!
WC3 was the most successful esport in Korea since Brood War until a major maprigging scandal basically killed it.
Wrong, like already said a few pages before.
At least Blizzard has a vested interest in the game past "how can this be marketed for maximum advertising effect?"
Blizzard only cares about money too.
Blizzard and Activision combined. They have billions of dollars. Why don't they create another company and just keep it under the Activision Blizzard umbrella.
Depending on how close Kespa is working with the korean government ( and i guess they are, knowing how much economy is based on sc in korea ) Blizzard basically has no chance at all to do this.
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up.
KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now.
Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting.
I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch.
But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing.
They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that?
And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money.
Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T
I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon.
You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly.
They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people.
I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones.
Do you really know what nominal sum of money is Blizz asking for. I bet you don't. The point is KeSPA doesn't need SC2. There are a lot of good RTS games out there if they ever want to replace BW, which I seriously doubt they do. Just because the name of the game is Starcraft X doesn't automatically makes it anywhere close to being good as SCBW. Imagine NBA replacing basketball with something else.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Right. Blizzard is the only one that makes these kind of games, they made SC, they made War3 which whatever you think of it, was a competitive success, and they are putting a good deal of effort into SC2. No one else does this. KESPA tried hard to push other games to make profits off of, like Sudden Attack, but they've all been comparative failures to the beast that is SC BW, a game that is only beautifully competitive because Blizzard designed it and patched it intelligently, without which no amount of community map making could have done anything. They put a lot of effort and skill into creating competitive games and they obviously want some of the action instead of watching other people profit off that without giving them anything.
If it were only the players who made SC BW amazing then the players could make any game amazing, and we wouldn't need Blizzard at all, we could just run off and have an amazing competitive game of Dawn of War 2 or whatever. Oh wait, we can't, because those games suck balls for strategic competitive play and spectating enjoyment.
Good luck finding a replacement. If Blizzard was so easily replaced KEPSA would have had smash hits with other games years ago. KESPA is easily replaced- anyone can do what they do, its nothing to be commended for whatsoever- Blizzard is not easily replaced.
Why doesn't the Korean community build and design a nice competitive RTS for us to play and watch? Oh right, they don't have the skills.
Well, why wasn't Warcraft 3 a sucess like SCBW in Korea. Because real progamers didn't want to switch the game. I don't think Blizz ever had in mind competitive gameplay and progaming when they designed SC and SCBW. It just turned out to be like that. Thats why they didn't have this fucking shit about broadcasting rights and royalties in their EULA. On the other hand they designed WC3 to be competitive and it still didn't went well in Korea. That's because you have an army of kids in Korea practicing like crazy SCBW. Why would they suddenly switch to something else with risks of that game not becoming popular. The same thing will happen to SC2 in Korea. In the rest of the world it will also be the same thing with SC2 as with WC3. There will be some tournaments, maybe even a WCG (if Blizz doen't ask for royalties), it will be popular, but that has nothing to do with it being a professional sport with a regular leagues, big sponsors, players who live only by playing the game. And that means we might never see level of skill that we currently see in SCBW in Korea. I hope it never dies .
WC3 was the most successful esport in Korea since Brood War until a major maprigging scandal basically killed it.
Yes, but it never came even close to popularity of BW. Maprigging scandal was the last drop. It was already downhill even before that.
On April 29 2010 04:52 nimoraca wrote: Yes, but it never came even close to popularity of BW. Maprigging scandal was the last drop. It was already downhill even before that.
The discussion of WC3 was in response to your claim that KeSPA could find another competitive RTS if it so desired and that it doesn't need Blizzard. The point was that there has only been one RTS other than Starcraft that is even worth considering as far as competitive success, and it's also a Blizzard game. Simply put, Bizzard is the only company that has any sort of track record of success with competitively viable RTS games. No other developer comes close.
Ultimately, while KeSPA might be able to ensure the survival of Esports through SCBW, it is both incapable of, and has no incentive to ensure its growth, for two reasons. Firstly, as much as we hate seeing it as an argument, SCBW is old. A large crowd of gamers and potential viewers dismiss it because of this fact. Secondly, KeSPA has no interest in promoting Starcraft outside of Korea. It has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but has not made use of those opportunities, likely for lack of potential profit.
Might Blizzard kill Esports? Yes. But frankly, I'd rather take the risk of letting Blizzard manage things and have the potential for it to be much bigger. As it stands, KeSPA would certainly allow Esports to survive, but ultimately, it's never going to grow that much in their hands.
On April 29 2010 04:52 nimoraca wrote: Yes, but it never came even close to popularity of BW. Maprigging scandal was the last drop. It was already downhill even before that.
The discussion of WC3 was in response to your claim that KeSPA could find another competitive RTS if it so desired and that it doesn't need Blizzard. The point was that there has only been one RTS other than Starcraft that is even worth considering as far as competitive success, and it's also a Blizzard game. Simply put, Bizzard is the only company that has any sort of track record of success with competitively viable RTS games. No other developer comes close.
Ultimately, while KeSPA might be able to ensure the survival of Esports through SCBW, it is both incapable of, and has no incentive to ensure its growth, for two reasons. Firstly, as much as we hate seeing it as an argument, SCBW is old. A large crowd of gamers and potential viewers dismiss it because of this fact. Secondly, KeSPA has no interest in promoting Starcraft outside of Korea. It has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but has not made use of those opportunities, likely for lack of potential profit.
Might Blizzard kill Esports? Yes. But frankly, I'd rather take the risk of letting Blizzard manage things and have the potential for it to be much bigger. As it stands, KeSPA would certainly allow Esports to survive, but ultimately, it's never going to grow that much in their hands.
The only problem is that I don't like the vision that Blizz has for eSports. By reading the interview with Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime where he says "Our understanding of E-sports is as a community project that increases the enjoyment of the game for the players." I'm almost certain that they don't understand what eSports really means in Korea, and what it means to people like TL netizens. Sure SC2 will end up being popular in the US and Europe, but will it achieve what SCBW achieved in Korea. I'm afraid not. After 10 years of watching competitive SCBW at an unbelievable level of skill, I can't just return to watching players that play SC2 just for fun or at a semi pro level, with a tournament now and then. I need those 12-14 hour a day practicing monsters.
well, if blizzard is unable to establish starcraft 2 in Korea, then starcraft 2 will never be as popular as starcraft 1. i don't think there is any game as popular to have tournaments on such a large scale like starcraft except for maybe counterstrike.
even if blizzard doesn't make money from collaboration with e-sports, e-sports can provide huge promotions for starcraft 2 and possibly incent more koreans to purchase starcraft 2
I hope they can work together somehow. Although i still think Blizzard still has the upperhand since it is their product. At least this time they might be able to charge tickets at finals venues and finally make a real good profit.
Radiomouse Netherlands. April 27 2010 21:26. Posts 106 PM Profile Quote # I'm sick of reading people saying that KeSPA created e-sports in korea. Learn the history behind KeSPA instead of making false assumptions.
Also, korean e-sports is not flawless by far. I'd much rather have a players association, instead of an organisation like KeSPA.
I've been saying this for years.. the players badly need to form a union / when it comes to e-sports the players and the game are the value here kespa isnt even necessary in a subjective sense , and if there is money to be made a new kespa-like org will emerge( as simple as demand being filled by a supply, someone will fill it ) However saying Blizzard doesn't deserve compensation for thier intellectual property is just absurd. How much they are asking for is another story ; you can call them greedy if you want . In the end if they are too greedy then no one will work with them because the figures won't work out , if this is the case they will sponsor it themselves , as in GOM , But that is for the lawyers to work out . In any event if there is money to made made they will work it out with kespa or without them . I just hope if sc2 becomes as popular the players are smart enough to form a union block with some power this time , because without them there is no draw ..... How many people line up to watch kespa officials make retarded decisions , or to view kespa officials play sc for that matter , or completely fail at running major events ( power outage)well we all lined up for that one but not happily ( maybe some of the players that fixed games can use that money to pay blizzard and make a players run league ..... ( joking where they make salaries that dont require cheating to insure ones future and still commit ones entire young adult life .. instead of going to college or getting another job ;playing SC into thier 20's and 30's(rarely) with absolutely no job security
On April 29 2010 09:05 nimoraca wrote: The only problem is that I don't like the vision that Blizz has for eSports. By reading the interview with Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime where he says "Our understanding of E-sports is as a community project that increases the enjoyment of the game for the players." I'm almost certain that they don't understand what eSports really means in Korea, and what it means to people like TL netizens. Sure SC2 will end up being popular in the US and Europe, but will it achieve what SCBW achieved in Korea. I'm afraid not. After 10 years of watching competitive SCBW at an unbelievable level of skill, I can't just return to watching players that play SC2 just for fun or at a semi pro level, with a tournament now and then. I need those 12-14 hour a day practicing monsters.
I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
On April 29 2010 16:03 Boonbag wrote: 9 out of 10 people posting in this thread don't know what Kespa is.
The real question is how many people are supporting Kespa without knowing all the detriment they've been to the competitive SC community and are just using this thread as a venue to rage at Blizzard.
On April 29 2010 16:03 Boonbag wrote: 9 out of 10 people posting in this thread don't know what Kespa is.
The real question is how many people are supporting Kespa without knowing all the detriment they've been to the competitive SC community and are just using this thread as a venue to rage at Blizzard.
And also, how many people are using this thread to bash KeSPA for some bad decisions during the past 8 yeras. Nobody is defending KeSPA. They did same bad shit. And yes, progaming is not here because of KeSPA. KeSPA is here because of progaming, meaning KeSPA was created because it was needed. KeSPA is composed of big teams and big corporate sponsors. Some of them (like Samsung) have 35 times the revenue of Activision/Blizzard (according to wikipedia). Blizz needs those sponsors if it wants SC2 to be successful in Korea. It can't just spit in KeSPAa face and expect to create something as successful as SCBW in Korea.
So here is the thing, pro starcraft has kept my interest in BW all this time i don't think i would still be playing if not for the Korean scene ... i hope KESPA and blizzard work things out.
On April 29 2010 14:17 TheYango wrote: I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
On April 27 2010 00:13 BDF92 wrote: Why is kespa making so much of a fuss paying for sc2? Its not like they get their other games for free(except sc1) the least they could do is pay up considering the success sc1 has brought them.
This bears repeating. If Kespa pays to broadcast the rest of their games, I don't see how this can even be open for debate. You might not like the thought of Blizzard trying to take control of their game, but Kespa has already demonstrated that they should be paying to get the rights to games.
Hmm. what are they paying for their other games exactly? Did they pay for wc3? I don't get the whole taking sides bit. I don't think either side is trying to do esports any favors
i actually hope kespa doesnt get SC2 so they can keep doing SCBW tournaments and i will laugh as the top SCBW players and tournament winners still are more prestigious and get paid more money and are more popular than the SC2 players
On April 29 2010 14:17 TheYango wrote: I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
1)Blizzard takes share in the profits. 2)??? 3)Players well being goes up.
I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
12-14 hours a day is too much in my opinion, and probably an exaggeration. still, how many hours do you think that gary kasparov had to train (starting at the age of 10!!) to become the best chess player of all time? same goes for classical musicians, masters of piano or violin or whatever. you think they were just sitting on their asses while growing up and the music skills simply came to them? no man, road to success is covered with dedication and hard, hard work, starting at a very young age.
On April 29 2010 14:17 TheYango wrote: I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
1)Blizzard takes share in the profits. 2)??? 3)Players well being goes up.
The fact that Blizzard does not have a direct hand in the ownership of progaming teams (and is unlikely to make such an acquisition means that they aren't in a position to gain from something that is such an anti-player piece of work as the Free Agency fiasco.
The thing about KeSPA is that because they are headed and run by the same companies that own proteams, it is very unlikely for them to enact major rulings to benefit players in a way that might in any way increase the costs for aforementioned companies.
i think e-sports for foreigners will stay exactly like it is now. one WCG tourney. one blizzcon tourney they might add a ladder stage and try to get someone to broadcast it for them while paying royalties to blizzard, but thats a big if. besides that, blizzard will NOT invest into the future of e-sports in NA. there is just too much risk of failure. in no way is pro gaming mainstream enough to gamble building an infrastructure where there are constant seasons of leagues, proleagues etc etc going on.
On April 29 2010 14:17 TheYango wrote: I guess if you're fine with sponsors and managing bodies having very little respect for the well-being of their players, then yeah, KeSPA's vision of Esports is more compatible with you than Blizzard's.
1)Blizzard takes share in the profits. 2)??? 3)Players well being goes up.
The fact that Blizzard does not have a direct hand in the ownership of progaming teams (and is unlikely to make such an acquisition means that they aren't in a position to gain from something that is such an anti-player piece of work as the Free Agency fiasco.
The thing about KeSPA is that because they are headed and run by the same companies that own proteams, it is very unlikely for them to enact major rulings to benefit players in a way that might in any way increase the costs for aforementioned companies.
If there will be progaming teams then they would also have an organization the only difference that Blizzard makes is that it would take some money from esports, Blizzard had never even asked to have any legal say in how pro teams are run, they want to decide in how tournaments are run, have all the right to the footage, and be paid when it is aired.
As all the multiplayer games are in Battle.net now, Blizzard would be in position of providing a high quality infrastructure for tourneys (for a small fee or whatever) so basically everything happening in SC2 will be under Blizzard 'supervision'.
Blizzard's got so much money they could delete everything Starcraft and be fucking rich for the rest of the their fat greedy lives, there's no doubt in that, at least for anyone who has even ever heard of World of Warcraft.
Kespa is fucked, who cares anyways they're just a group that provided a service to the players, they didn't develop the pro scene, we did and because we're the ones who can decide whether a game is worth our time or not whatever Kespa does won't matter since Blizzard owns the game.
Well, they should do that and make us pay to watch proleague on youtube channels since they own the copyrights. rofl... you guys are so stupid. Stop watching sc progaming if you dont pay then.
On May 01 2010 01:31 Garaman wrote: i think e-sports for foreigners will stay exactly like it is now. one WCG tourney. one blizzcon tourney they might add a ladder stage and try to get someone to broadcast it for them while paying royalties to blizzard, but thats a big if. besides that, blizzard will NOT invest into the future of e-sports in NA. there is just too much risk of failure. in no way is pro gaming mainstream enough to gamble building an infrastructure where there are constant seasons of leagues, proleagues etc etc going on.
Wow, this forum is an interesting read. Quite a lot of supposition and conspiracy theory.
At the end of the day, we can speculate all we like on what might happen if Kespa goes down, or if Blizzard gets blocked in Korea; but neither of these events is likely to happen.
One probable scenario is that this is merely the latest negiotiating tactic on Blizzard's part, similar to Microsoft in the Yahoo deal last year. Ceasing negotiations is often a way to change the balance of power in future negotiations. How it plays out... well we'll have to wait and see.
One thing that I think is unnecessary is all the hate for Blizzard and Kespa. Both are organisations trying to make a profit, and both are probably well supplied with staff who genuinely care about what they do. Whether or not that caring informs final business decisions can only be guessed at. At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the management teams to try and grow their company by moving into new markets, or expand on existing markets.
Blizzard has a good history of moving into markets where it's felt they have no business, and turning into a dominant force very quickly. It will be interesting to see how they manage with e-sports.
can someone please help me find the email addresses of Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime or COO Paul Sams or Blizzard's esports department? i have a proposition for them.
On May 04 2010 18:25 sinK wrote: can someone please help me find the email addresses of Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime or COO Paul Sams or Blizzard's esports department? i have a proposition for them.
Morhaime said "We've been negotiating with the association about intellectual property rights for the last three years, and we've made no progress at all...
TL said "We've been arguing about about intellectual property rights for the last 32 pages, and we've made no progress at all...
lol jk
Although I am very interested in the topic and the future of esports, I don't know enough about either organization to form an educated opinion =(
I can see why people could see Blizz's demands as unreasonable. However there is no other company that's even come close to making a competitive RTS of Blizz's quality and with the industry FPS obsession there likely never will be. So why should Blizz allow Kespa to freely profit off their game when they have a complete monopoly over competitive RTS game-making?
What kind of business model and future do you have envisioned for Battle.net? Paul Sams: Battle.net will be a hub for all of Blizzard's games, and help develop the community and e-sports. The specifics of our business and service model can change from game to game, and region to region.
Translation: we are going to do everything we can to price discriminate between regions in order to ensure that we make a ton of money. Luckily we can use the craptastic bnet lat as an excuse!
without KeSPA there would be NO BROODWAR TOURNAMENTS. this means NO BOXER NADA YELLOW OOV SAVIOR(not so much him anymore after the scandal ;P) BISU FLASH or the DONG. there would be very few people who would watch scbw without these ppl having lived and so i thank KeSPA greatly for providing me with these programmers
^ it could even be argued that without KeSPA there would be no SC2 period! The interest in BW certainly would have waned without KeSPA's organization and whatnot.
On April 25 2010 14:04 dani_caliKorea wrote: Just wondering how much money does Blizzard even make off of Esports in Korea?
None. That's the whole issue. They are making millions of dollars a year off of someone else's property, and the said owners of the property are getting absolutely no return (and if box sales is a counter-argument, I will proceed to laugh).
Good thing law in Korea is different than in America. I don't think Blizzard should have slightest rights to tell who and how will play their game. It's like balls producer saying football teams to pay them for playing. Crazy. Go Kespa and thanks for turning professional bw for what it is today !