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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote:Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable. Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all. http://www.thegames.co.kr/main/newsview.php?category=201&subcategory=1&id=142824Key points >>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다. The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles >>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다. Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them. >>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다 The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. >>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!) >>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다. Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 >>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다. Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard >>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다. On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft. >>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다. Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues". >>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다. A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to) >>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다. (Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.) >>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. (Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm)) (AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) --- So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP! Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard! That's quite scary actually. Blizzard is saying that they own all user created content in the game. That means they own your replays. If you want to make a fpvod and post it on Youtube, blizzard can remove it by copyright law. It'll also mean no more livestreams. You can also be sued if you're caught torrenting a vod of the game on the TL Tracker.
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The point isn't whether WoW is a valid esport or not it is whether or not Blizzard should be in charge of the SC2 competitive scene. Based on what they have done in the past to their own games and what they are doing now I would say definitely not.
I was just kidding, I played WoW "competitively" myself.
Anyway, I think the agenda with WoW and SC2 are completely different. SC2 is completely built around competitive play whereas WoW was so much more successful once they started catering towards ultra bad players.
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T.O.P., they might actually give specific permissions in their EULA for the game. It would be a very reasonable thing to do and positive for the adoption of SC2. Although they don't need to do it because people don't keep to the EULA anyway, so they can keep it out of there and use their position to force unwanted content off the net. Maybe they'll be good sports.. *crosses fingers*
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do you love blizzard that much that you are blind now ?
i love blizzard game , they make the best game but i hate blizzard ownership and what they do and think at the same time .
why everyone think KESPA make much money ? and why blizzard should get some share ? because they make the game ?
did you guy got anything to back that up for the money part ? yes they got broadcast and some tv channel . but at the same time everything they do are free for the guy who want to watch the game do you think they make that much money ?! and why they got no right for get some money? they are the one who create everything about e-sport in korea .
blizzard do anything for free ? sc2 = 3 game , why not only one ? . just look at blizzard how they ask for 20 euro for get some ingame mount in wow ......
yes kespa are not here only for help the e-sport , they make money doing it or they would never do something like that , and that not only kespa , any sponsor are here for make money , anything in the world are here for make money .
they never did anything aboutkespa for about 10 year .....and starcraft will soon come out and here come blizzard !!!! , they want money , FOR EVERYTHING , tv broadcast , tournament , and event , anything , if people make sc2 keyboard they want money, anything who make you think of starcraft , they want the share . they want money for everything that have anything to do with starcraft game .
you will tell me , that them who make the game so they deserve everything !! just look at any other game or sports , many game creator and company dont ask for money for everything other people do , some game got private server and the game creator want them shut down but many time in the end they do nothing for stop them but blizzard ?
gamei ( private server ) got closed because they asked for money ... and what about wgtour ? right when they become partner they were realy slow to give wgtour the code for anything , took months for anything and in the end wgtour closed too because of pgtour . pgtour got hacked and closed too , im not saying blizzard got anything to do with the last one but the 2 other ? .
and blizzard have never do anything for starcraft e-sport other that fix the game in each patch ( dont forget they do that for ANY GAME they own )
and now they know about e-sport and want all the money ? and you say kespa are the one greedy ? at the same time they look like they know nothing about e-sport , here some quote for the interview : ----------------------------- Our understanding of E-sports is as a community project that increases the enjoyment of the game for the players. It's going to be popular not only in Korea, but worldwide. ----------------------------- are you realy going to say that what E-SPORT suposed to be ? esport in korea = real job . fame , fans and something you can do for a living and alot more. blizzard think that only something for the enjoyment of the game for the players ?! that this kind of e-sport you want for sc2 ? , blizzard will never create team or anything else if they are the one moving the e-sports . they will hold tournament , online probably and give prize money , that the kind of e-sport you want ? right now in sc2 beta they ask for know if you host a ONLINE tournament , and you need to be accepted by them ( real joke ) just some stuft like that should tell you what will realy happen when the game go live.
in fact blizzard are the greedy one , you just need to read what they ask 3-4 page back , in fact doing nothing about korea e sport would only help them for sc2 , but no , THEY WANT money here too and dont care about destroy the e-sport if they cant get the money .
you are realy stupid if you say they got the ip right.... seriously the ip right give you the ok for destroy everything other company and people have done for 10 year and they never stoped them when they started but right now they want all because the new game will come out ?
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On April 26 2010 01:37 pheus wrote: Kespa cares about one thing and one thing only: money. Take a look at how they treat their players. Even the best Starcraft players only earn a fraction of the money that they make for the tv networks and sponsors. Because blizzard is different?
This entire situation is the result of blizzard attempting to legally choke kespa out of the scene that they created and profit from the promotion they've accomplished over the last ten years. From blizzard's perspective, they don't give a shit if ESPORTS gets smaller if the portion they control grows. Given that blizzard is essentially moving to monopolize the entire scene from a position in which they ran a single high profile tournament a year, they really have nothing to lose.
But yeah, keep thinking this is a good for the scene.
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On April 26 2010 03:05 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote:Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable. Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all. http://www.thegames.co.kr/main/newsview.php?category=201&subcategory=1&id=142824Key points >>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다. The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles >>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다. Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them. >>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다 The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. >>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!) >>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다. Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 >>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다. Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard >>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다. On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft. >>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다. Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues". >>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다. A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to) >>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다. (Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.) >>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. (Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm)) (AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) --- So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP! Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard! That's quite scary actually. Blizzard is saying that they own all user created content in the game. That means they own your replays. If you want to make a fpvod and post it on Youtube, blizzard can remove it by copyright law. It'll also mean no more livestreams. You can also be sued if you're caught torrenting a vod of the game on the TL Tracker.
Most of the actions of the community fall under fair use.
Blizzard is entirely within its legal (U.S.) rights to demand royalties on profitable events. They made the engine that outputs artwork for entertainment. Just because players know how to push buttons and click very quickly, this doesn't overshadow the work Blizzard put into this product. Because it generates a new piece of artwork for every game played, no one else has the right to "sell" their engine's capabilities.
Now if you argued that the role of the player in generating the final product rivals that of the developers and artists (that people watch E-sports for the pimp plays, not just for shiny explosions), then you may have yourself a lengthy legal entrenchment to work with. I doubt many courts in the U.S. would align with this interpretation of common-law, but it is up in the air for fudging.
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Thread Summary:
A is better than B No it's not, B is better than A Ya well here's my opinion why A is better than B Your opinion is wrong, B did this, and A did that. Here's some proof I found on the internet, concluding that A is better than B...
All in all, Blizzards game, Blizzards rule, doesn't matter who did what, those are copyright laws(despite how much I hate it). For instance, if there is a law in your state/country that you are not allowed to drive while using a cellphone, you cant make up sort of excuse exclaiming that you are above the law when you are caught. Point is, Blizzard is a greedy company and now everyone can relate to Braveheart.
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blame frenchs. god damn vivendi created a monster. the only thing i know is if a huge company want more profit, there will be nothing good for people.
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On April 25 2010 18:21 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2. What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered. Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene. If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2. I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils. the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles.
it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
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On April 26 2010 04:35 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:21 vek wrote:On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2. What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered. Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene. If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2. I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils. the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games.
Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps.
Also regarding EULAs - They're overall almost always draconian, though most of the time it's not in a company's best interests to act on those provisions unless serious money is at stake. I mean, Blizzard isn't going to try to shut down some random youtuber who is creating SC videos and asking for donations or anything.
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On April 26 2010 04:46 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:35 mahnini wrote:On April 25 2010 18:21 vek wrote:On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2. What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered. Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene. If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2. I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils. the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games. Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps. it's not ironic at all. kespa did so only because they themselves would benefit from doing so and as far as i know, kespa did not exist for the entire life of the sc progaming scene. i could just as easily say it's ironic that kespa thinks they are the anchor of the sc scene because if it weren't for patch 1.09 sc would still be imbalanced.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 26 2010 04:46 QibingZero wrote: Ironically, a large part of the SC balance we know and love today is due to KeSPA and the Korean community's drive to keep the game both balanced and fresh by creating new and improved maps. I was under the impression that this is not even true--that Kespa did not manage Starcraft and ESPORTS in any period of time where it mattered, and that they have not managed anything since their inception that the scene has not been capable of doing without them before. The Korean community is responsible for making SC what it is now, but I don't believe Kespa was necessary for that, nor did they contribute anything to drastically make it better.
Someone more knowledgeable needs to clear this up.
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Yonhap: What's Blizzard's vision for E-sports?
Of course it could be profitable as well, but we're focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects. If we turn a profit, we plan to reinvest a large portion of it to development e-sports even further, in the form of sponsorships, prize money, etc.
^ This quote right there has determined once and for all that all prospects of SC2 becoming a serious ESPORT are dead. Dead and buried.
The community around a sport must first and foremost be a business model. Pringles MSL, Korean Air Winners League. FIFA World Cup brought to you by McDonalds, Snickers, proud sponsor of the Olympics, Pepsi - proud to have our logo on the shirts of the greatest athletes world wide.
Look at todays CS 1.6 scene. What used to be the most promising ESPORT in the West has turned out to be a game enjoyed by many - there are SOOO many followers, players and kids spending TONS of $$$ on ridiculously expensive items such as mousepads, headsets and T-Shirts. But it's the FANS buying stuff with the TEAMNAME on! It should be major corporations fighting over the chance to have their brand associated with these kids idols!
I'll give you one example of product placement. Dole Bananas. The bananas that were collected in the first Super Monkey Ball game (don't know if they still are) carried a Dole brand on them. Now i LITERARY witnessed kids point at Dole bananas specifically in stores and go "Super Monkey Ball bananas!"!
There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre.
I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream.
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On April 26 2010 05:07 Thrill wrote: There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre.
I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream.
Sadly, this is becoming increasingly clear.
Pardo's arrognat mockery of LAN users at Blizzcon. Region-locked battle.net Rediculous demands for SC2.
Clearly, Blizzard just wants to cash in, rather than putting forth extra effort and getting momentum for a sustainable e-sports scene.
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I don't think kespa is making a lot of money. They have to pay people to commentate, refree, set up, manage, and film these events. And on special events, they even get celebrities to come and perform. Most of their revenue comes from advertisements and selling different merchandise. Coming to a match is free, so I can see kespa not having too much money, so to me, Blizzard seems a bit too greedy.
And I think blizzard would make more money if they allowed kespa to broadcast sc2, because it'll advertise it. If they try to make a progaming scene out of sc2, I think it'll just turn into a minor sport like halo. So I seriously think blizzard should just let kespa do whatever they want.
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On April 26 2010 04:35 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:21 vek wrote:On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2. What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered. Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene. If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2. I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils. the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games. you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles. it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share.
blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ?
so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ?
they dont only ask for broadcasting right too .
and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them.
blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ?
and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start .
and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester .
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8748 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:07 Thrill wrote:Show nested quote + Yonhap: What's Blizzard's vision for E-sports?
Of course it could be profitable as well, but we're focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects. If we turn a profit, we plan to reinvest a large portion of it to development e-sports even further, in the form of sponsorships, prize money, etc.
^ This quote right there has determined once and for all that all prospects of SC2 becoming a serious ESPORT are dead. Dead and buried. The community around a sport must first and foremost be a business model. Pringles MSL, Korean Air Winners League. FIFA World Cup brought to you by McDonalds, Snickers, proud sponsor of the Olympics, Pepsi - proud to have our logo on the shirts of the greatest athletes world wide. Look at todays CS 1.6 scene. What used to be the most promising ESPORT in the West has turned out to be a game enjoyed by many - there are SOOO many followers, players and kids spending TONS of $$$ on ridiculously expensive items such as mousepads, headsets and T-Shirts. But it's the FANS buying stuff with the TEAMNAME on! It should be major corporations fighting over the chance to have their brand associated with these kids idols! I'll give you one example of product placement. Dole Bananas. The bananas that were collected in the first Super Monkey Ball game (don't know if they still are) carried a Dole brand on them. Now i LITERARY witnessed kids point at Dole bananas specifically in stores and go "Super Monkey Ball bananas!"! There's a HUGE benefit to allowing corporate interests into any sport where kids have idols and the potential for SC2 is greater than any other game THANKS to Korea that has kept Brood War prosperous for more than five years and the sheer fact that an RTS is a better spectating game than any other genre. I'm so sorry it didn't work out, especially for Day[9] and his dreams - but it is completely apparent that Blizzard will NOT be the company to deliver the game that takes ESPORTs into mainstream. Non-profit organizations run the same way as for-profit organizations. The only difference is the people that own the organization don't make any money. If their revenue exceeds their costs, then the profit is used to augment the operation -- it doesn't go into the owners' personal bank accounts. This is good for esports cuz Blizzard isn't going to be taking an extra cut for their services. Their services will be provided at-cost. As long as they are efficient and productive, it's a great scenario.
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Edit: To Oddysey
He's saying that Blizzard's interest in controlling the competitive scene is a good sign for the future, not that they are designing sc2 for the pro scene.
Also it doesn't matter what's fair Blizzard has the broadcasting rights for SC2.
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On April 26 2010 05:22 Oddysay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:35 mahnini wrote:On April 25 2010 18:21 vek wrote:On April 25 2010 18:04 mahnini wrote: the funny thing is blizzard is actually the one taking the steps to professionalize progaming in this case and kespa is refusing because it doesn't want to lose profits. if the gaming industry starts receiving royalties for large broadcasts like the ones in korea they would be much more motivated to develop games that cater to the progaming scene aka what blizzard is trying to do with sc2. What steps have they taken? All I have seen is Blizzard trying to limit what people can do with the game so that they make more money (no lan, region realm lock (how they hell does this help competition)). Blizzard has done nothing for esports, it was Blizzard itself that destroyed WoW's competitive scene when they forced a major tournament to use a new completely imbalanced patch and it has never recovered. Remember it is barely the same company that made Brood War and they haven't made a decent game since Diablo 2, Activision Blizzard likes money and they do not care about whether or not foreign esports is a sucess. This is why you see them trying to latch on to an already successful model in Korea and milk it for free money rather than creating a foreign scene. If Blizzard actually cared we would see a Blizzard Starleague USA but no, they don't want to take risks or try to improve the foreign scene. All they want is money, which is fine, but don't fall into the trap that Blizzards involvement in the pro scene will help SC2. I don't particularly like KeSPA either but in this case I believe they are the lesser of the two evils. the mere idea that blizzard is designing a game that is meant to be played in progaming circuits is a nice start. what blizzard is doing is asking for it's share of the pie in broadcasting rights. it would be completely and utterly stupid of blizzard to organize a large national "starleague". that isn't what blizzard does, that's like asking kespa to balance games. you can call it blizzard taking advantage of kespa all you want but the fact of the matter is unless game developers are able to reap the benefits of their work, most of them aren't going to design a game to last 10+ years and remain fresh and competitive. what you'll get are throw away games that have sequels and updated graphics every year like we see on consoles. it's not like kespa has a say in this anyway. blizzard controls sc2 broadcasting rights and there is no way kespa can go to court and try to strip them of this. it's up to them to negotiate terms that blizzard wants to accept and blizzard has every right to refuse if they feel they aren't getting a fair share. blizzard are not designing sc2 for the pro gamer circuits.... what you smoke ? so far they try to make the game noob friendly for anyone to play , and get the more people they can . they dont care about the e-sport , they care about how many people will play and buy the game and they aim for the casual players . kespa dont make that much in broadcasting and why blizzard should get what they ask for ? they ask for way too much ( do you know what they actualy ask for before say that ? ) , they should get what kespa want to give them or ask for something fair and stop here . and are you serious about saying blizzard should not do anything for e-sport ? if they dont want anything to do with e-sport and do nothing about e-sport why they should get any money from e-sport then ? they dont only ask for broadcasting right too . and blizzard game are able to get the benefits of their work , dont worry about that , they make way more that the money they have put for create the game , dont worry . they are not going to shut down because they dont get the 0.0001 % kespa would give them. blizzard just want to rule anything that have to do with starcraft 2 , if they cant get it they just destroy it complety and they want to be sure that no one win anything from their game they create ip right , right ? and why do you think blizzard only ask for a fair share ? they ask for way more that a fair share . and sorry again but like someone say that 90 % kespa and the korean who balanced the game for blizzard since the start . and right now , who do you think realy work for balance starcraft 2 ? bizzard ? beta tester . so you think blizzard built in overlays and hired a korean dude to balance their game just for kicks? they understand it's potential as a spectator sport and are making accommodation to help make it more accessible.
what i'm getting from the first paragraph is that you think blizzards demands are too harsh and that kespa makes no profit from propagating progaming. kespa is not some altruistic organization who make sunshine and rainbows for the progaming scene. they are a company that seeks profit. blizzard is asking for a share of that profit. kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
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kespa wants to give blizzard NO SHARE in that profit.
Uh?
The fact that they didn't accept ActivisionBlizzard's demands (which seem pretty abusive to me, since they demand the ability to ask any amount at any time) doesn't mean they wouldn't accept any demand.
If you were going to invest a lot to make SC2 popular and televised, would you accept that terms? That ActivisionBlizzard, at any moment, can ask for any amount or you'll have to cancel the tournament?
Sincerely, I wouldn't. That would be a very irresponsible action.
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