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On January 07 2010 11:58 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 11:07 Mortality wrote:On January 07 2010 08:52 Jayme wrote:On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote:
People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative. In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins. Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ... Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro. In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose. But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time. + Show Spoiler +Heres the difference.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
Yeap, I was kinda typing halfway.... then I found your post..... you pretty much got it
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On January 07 2010 17:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote:
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
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On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 17:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote:
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members. Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance. There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
What's the pattern?
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On January 07 2010 17:28 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:On January 07 2010 17:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote:
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members. Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance. There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player. What's the pattern?
3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back.
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On January 07 2010 17:30 siv00 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 17:28 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:On January 07 2010 17:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote:
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members. Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance. There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player. What's the pattern? 3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back.
Or being Savior.
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On January 07 2010 17:33 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 17:30 siv00 wrote:On January 07 2010 17:28 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:On January 07 2010 17:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote:
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members. Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance. There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player. What's the pattern? 3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back. Or being Savior.
Savior did do that, though - he's the definition, Ma Bonjwa.
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Oh I see what you're saying, but really it's not the point of MSLs, it's the dominance that comes with it. Just like Boxer, he was dominant. And yes, they were absolutely dominant.
On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
.
Savior won leagues in a way different because of Chojja and yes there has been a player with "absolute" dominance. oov?
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On January 07 2010 17:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Oh I see what you're saying, but really it's not the point of MSLs, it's the dominance that comes with it. Just like Boxer, he was dominant. And yes, they were absolutely dominant.
Well, absolute dominance implies that they never lost, which certainly isn't true, considering Savior failed several times in OSL preliminaries, often in ZvZ. They were just far better than any other player of the time. And no it's not the MSL medals themselves but rather the mystique of having that particular combination of titles (Boxer has his own mystique) that is associated with the bonjwas, the most dominant players.
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"Let's summarize the assessments that he passed.
1. Surprise
- A newcomer winning a championship
2. The dark age of Zerg
- Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple.
3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov
- Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio.
4. Continuous dominance
- Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches.
5. Dominance over strong contemporaries
- Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)."
Quoted from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105232
It's not really the fact that they won MSLs then the OSL.
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On January 07 2010 17:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:"Let's summarize the assessments that he passed. 1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)." Quoted from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105232It's not really the fact that they won MSLs then the OSL.
Yeah but none of that stuff is true of Nada or Oov either except like 1 and 5. That's just the explanation as to why Savior was important enough to define "bonjwa theory" rather than it being thought up earlier to describe Nada or Oov.
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It wasn't thought up earlier, Savior coined the term and it was applied in retrospect. The point here is that continued dominance is the main vein behind the four bonjwas.
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On January 07 2010 17:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It wasn't thought up earlier, Savior coined the term and it was applied in retrospect. The point here is that continued dominance is the main vein behind the four bonjwas.
I said it was coined to describe Savior, yeah.
Basically, who is the definition of Bonjwa? Savior
And who else had a similar career to Savior's? Nada and Oov, and to a lesser extent Boxer.
You're thinking of it as I am saying "You have to have 3MSL+1OSL to be bonjwa" when I'm saying "Bonjwas have 3MSL+1OSL"
It's the source of a lot of the hype behind bonjwa, and it's why people were very excited about Bisu, because he appeared to be following the same pattern until he lost to Mind in the MSL/ failed to win any OSLs.
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On January 07 2010 16:45 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 12:45 Mortality wrote:On January 07 2010 11:58 Jayme wrote:On January 07 2010 11:07 Mortality wrote:On January 07 2010 08:52 Jayme wrote:On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote:
People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative. In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins. Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ... Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro. In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose. But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time. Heres the difference. The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with. His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that. Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style. There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size. Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control. + Show Spoiler +
Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point.
Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense.
However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth.
...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles.
By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series.
Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear.
nice post mortality. is it just me or have you been posting extra much lately (past month or so..?) haha. anyway... yeah your comment about flash's weakest patr being early game scares me. i hope his antimuta skills are good enough though (assuming shine beats movie)
TY and yes I've been posting a lot lately. Winter break and all.
On January 07 2010 17:49 siv00 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 17:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:"Let's summarize the assessments that he passed. 1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)." Quoted from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105232It's not really the fact that they won MSLs then the OSL. Yeah but none of that stuff is true of Nada or Oov either except like 1 and 5. That's just the explanation as to why Savior was important enough to define "bonjwa theory" rather than it being thought up earlier to describe Nada or Oov.
A bonjwa doesn't have to be anything other than #4 or #5 in the list Avidkeystamper posted. The key thing about being a bonjwa is that they are truly the undisputed champion. And to be that, you have to be clearly on another level above everyone else and you have to hold that form long enough to prove that your dominance isn't just from a particular metagame shift, but because you really are the best, period.
Those criteria in particular are only to explain why Savior was bonjwa. Coming along at the height of Terran dominance and completely reversing the balance of the match-up, holding the second highest 12 month win percentage in the history of Starcraft (yes, even Flash's current 12 month win percentage is lower), being the only player to successfully qualify for 5 starleague finals in a row, playing so many games against S-class opponents and dismantling them so thoroughly (his performance against S-class opponents is unrivaled in all of SC) -- these accomplishments are what defined Savior as bonjwa.
Oov and NaDa also have criteria that define them.
Oov holds the highest ever 12 month win percentage, 5 Starleague golds and 3 Starleague bronze. He's the only player to appear in a starleague finals three or more times and have 100% conversion to gold. Furthermore, his faster expansion timing completely changed the metagame probably more than any other player.
NaDa is the only gold grand slammer in the history of Starcraft. That means he won OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season. In that sense, he can be said to be the closest player to ever achieving absolute dominance. GhemTV SL no longer exists, but the modern equivalent would be winning OSL, MSL and GOM all in the same season. Nobody else has come close to this accomplishment. Furthermore, he held a win average above 65% for more than 5 calendar years. In fact, after 6 calendar years he had a career 64.4% wins, and after 7 calendar years he had a career 62.4% wins. He has spent more time in the KeSPA top 30 than anybody else by quite a margin. He has appear in a grand total of 10 OSL + MSL finals, converting 6 of them to gold. Nobody else has anywhere near his list of accomplishments and probably nobody ever will.
Boxer also -- even though he didn't have quite as a high a win percentage as the others or quite as long a list of Starleague golds next to his name, he made the medals podium (whether first, second or third) of almost every tournament in 2001, as well as most of them in late 2000 and early 2002. If Boxer wasn't in the top 4 of a tournament, people said he was slumping. At this stage in the world of Starcraft the way to become famous was to beat Boxer.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Imagine the nerd rage if Shine beats Flash in the finals. Oh god I really want it to happen just for the fallout.
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Man, after yesterday's msl, I wish Shine will win the OSL just for the total lols.
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Actually if Shine makes to the OSL Finals, I would cheer for him 100%, Shine's earlygame relentless aggression and Mutalisk control is top-notch. He can certainly take a game or 2 from Flash is he ONLY focuses on a 10 minutes game. Basically a gamble against Flash but hey its at least 50:50 chance of succeeding (Flash's interview) but hey its better than nothing!
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I can honestly say i've never watched any of Shine's games. I think I would enjoy his playstyle though and am going going to watch a load of them soon. I hope he does well though, rising players are MUCH more exciting than established ones.
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On January 08 2010 09:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Imagine the nerd rage if Shine beats Flash in the finals. Oh god I really want it to happen just for the fallout.
Best post in the thread, honestly. I think it would be hilarious.
People forget that the OSL cannot be filled with Flashes and Jaedongs and Storks. There is a caliber of player that is, on average, superior to every other caliber of player by a wide margin. These are the guys at the top of their game - and at the top of Starcraft as a whole.
A lot of people complain about guys like Kwanro. But you know what? Kwanro is good enough to get deep into Starleagues. Maybe he's 'awful' or 'terrible' in comparison to Jaedong or Flash, but he is obviously very good, and his non-standard play is pretty exciting if you ask me. People saying that progamers that are deep in Starleagues don't deserve the spot are just imagining that there is some other set of players like Flash and Jaedong out there that would be there instead. These guys deserve every spot they get - try not to forget that.
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On December 30 2009 08:52 prototype. wrote:
why the hate on hwasin? his zvt is s-class
was S-class. I for one love hwasin, but he just reaaaaaaarrry sucks now. rearry.
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On January 08 2010 09:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Imagine the nerd rage if Shine beats Flash in the finals. Oh god I really want it to happen just for the fallout.
me too would be hilarious lol.
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EPT
