EPTTime for him to shine - Page 12
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 07 2010 10:20 G3nXsiS wrote: What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R! Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3. Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career. I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born. While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie. Ever since the Bisu vs Savior MSL, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, July, and GGplay have won in an individual league each out of 14 OSLs and MSLs. July's OSL win was very arguably the most "random" win as July got to dodge the shit out of ZvT and pretty much just blasted through with his best match up. Notice that ever since his OSL win he hasn't really been anywhere. July wasn't even one of the top Zerg players during his most recent OSL win; sure, his ZvP was in the top, but his other match ups? Not really. At the very least, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, and GGplay were all solid players considered to be one of the top players of their respective races, and didn't have any glaring weaknesses. Luxury even got decent at ZvP during his reign as the second best Zerg player which lasted for a little while. Besides those six players, each and every single individual league including GOM were won by Stork (1 OSL), Bisu (2 MSL, 1 GOM), Jaedong (3 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 GOM), and Flash (1 OSL, 1 GOM). It is not as if during the bonjwa periods of Nada, iloveoov, and Savior, the bonjwas won all the SLs. | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:49 Kashll wrote: Flash is going to fuck him until he loves him. lmao. Iron Flash? | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:07 Mortality wrote: Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro. In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose. But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time. Heres the difference. The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with. His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that. Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style. There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size. Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On January 07 2010 12:08 Mortality wrote: It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time. There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions. I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa. | ||
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KimchiFriedRice
Canada237 Posts
People using the same title "It's time for him to shine" Just a pet peeve... | ||
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siv00
261 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:44 koreasilver wrote: Ever since the Bisu vs Savior MSL, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, July, and GGplay have won in an individual league each out of 14 OSLs and MSLs. July's OSL win was very arguably the most "random" win as July got to dodge the shit out of ZvT and pretty much just blasted through with his best match up. Notice that ever since his OSL win he hasn't really been anywhere. July wasn't even one of the top Zerg players during his most recent OSL win; sure, his ZvP was in the top, but his other match ups? Not really. Uh no, July still had to fight against T and Z players in the groups, and he was definitely top 3 zerg for a while in 2008. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:07 Mortality wrote: Luxury was the clear #2 when he won MSL, but I think your assessment of Calm is off. Winning MSL was what proved he was #2. During that same season, Effort made some progress into all 3 leagues, cutting really deep into GOM (less important than MSL but still relevant), making third place there, beating Jaedong in a bo3 to get there. Had Calm not won MSL, I would have put Effort as the #2 Zerg at that time. I just remember Effort hitting a really rough path where he lost 0-3 to Iris in GOM, 0-3 vs Calm in MSL, and getting 0-2ed by Jaedong in PL playoffs within a very short time, and thus I found it hard to consider him better than Calm after that point. Effort was definitely a clear #2 before that though, as he was doing equally good in PL, and also made it further in OSL and GOM. Im not denying that. If Calm had lost the final against Kwanro I would have still considered Calm #2 Zerg though, mostly because Calm looked really good in all his matches at that time(june-august), but partly due to Effort looking very weak in his matches against Iris. I guess we just have to disagree on that  | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On January 07 2010 05:36 Mortality wrote: In all fairness, I feel like a third of the TLnet community is too new to this game to really understand what a bonjwa is all about. Actually, not even older members really know what it is about. The problem is, "bonjwa" is not an official title and thus there is no official criteria by which to judge if a player is a bonjwa or not. It is for that reason that people keep discussing if someone is or is not a bonjwa. On January 07 2010 09:29 Catch]22 wrote: Dont act as if for example FBHs TvP is THAT bad, he's still at a very high level in TvP With the exception of one good MSL run (which was eventually stopped cold by Bisu), FBH was always a punching bag for good Protosses. So I would hardly describe FBH`s TvP as "very high level". One more thing. Why are people debating Shine`s chances against Flash? He needs to face Movie first and at least I think Movie has what it takes to stop Shine. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:58 Jayme wrote: Heres the difference. The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with. His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that. Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style. There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size. Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control. Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point. Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense. However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth. ...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles. By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series. Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On January 07 2010 11:00 Jayme wrote: Except that Oov and Flash have completely differing styles when it comes to their TvZ. Flash himself plays a VERY VERY aggressive TvZ now. Counter aggression isn't going to work well against Flash seeing as how he seems to defend flawlessly with almost no units while an army goes forth and kills the Zerg's natural. Calm got the mutalisk timing right to SOMEWHAT deflect that but he still lost 1-3 even with that build. Calm has better mutalisks than Shine typically... Oov's TvZ was very very aggressive as well, aside from his mech experiments. | ||
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siv00
261 Posts
On January 07 2010 12:19 jalstar wrote: I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa. The best criteria is that they all won multiple MSLs to start and OSL(s) after they were already considered the dominant player of the time. Bisu came much closer to being a bonjwa than Jaedong did, but that was before most of Jaedong's fanboys started watching SC. | ||
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kyzers0ze
Singapore1073 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On January 07 2010 16:32 siv00 wrote: The best criteria is that they all won multiple MSLs to start and OSL(s) after they were already considered the dominant player of the time. Bisu came much closer to being a bonjwa than Jaedong did, but that was before most of Jaedong's fanboys started watching SC. Except Boxer. | ||
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siv00
261 Posts
Boxer is special, obviously. | ||
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siv00
261 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On January 07 2010 12:45 Mortality wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point. Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense. However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth. ...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles. By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series. Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear. nice post mortality. is it just me or have you been posting extra much lately (past month or so..?) haha. anyway... yeah your comment about flash's weakest patr being early game scares me. i hope his antimuta skills are good enough though (assuming shine beats movie) | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse. There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons. You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members. | ||
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