Seriously guys, I'm so tired of people whining about how no name players are taking the spotlight and making/winning starleague finals. Get over it. Every single star, bonjwa, dominating player started out as a no namer. Most of them were royal roaders. Every star has to start somewhere. Most of them had to best the previous dominate player inorder to become a dominating player themselves. For example: sAviOr 3:1 NaDa at Shinhan Bank Season 3 OSL and Bisu 3:0 sAviOr at GomTV MSL Season 1. Or iloveoov 3:2 BoxeR at 2004 Ever OSL.
You just don't get it guys. This is the season of upsets. This is time for the unheard of to be heard. This is...
Okay so this guy could use some work with his ZvT but his other matchups seem very proficient. I'll admit, he was eliminated by Hwasin of all people in the Nate MSL round of 32 but that was ZvT, something I already said he needed work on. What I'm trying to say is:
He's in the freaking semi finals of the OSL right now
No, no and no, he did not gay, cheese, or got Lucky his way that far. He 2:1ed Bisu in the Round of 36 using what he does best, agressiveness. If Bisu wants play passively and let Shine roll him with his map control, then this is what he deserves.
In the Round of 16 he went 2-1 dropping a game to someone who has 3-1ed Jaedong in the past, Calm. Now in that game, it was clear that Shine had superior muta control but he still lost in a neck and neck race. He allowed Calm to gain the economic advantage. However, the other two wins were against the other relatively newcomer zerg, EffOrt and the BoxeR/iloveoov student, fantasy. Now, Shine > EffOrt was already surprising enough, but at the end of that day, I read Shine > fantasy in the Live report thread and Just thought, Shine fucking scares me. fantasy, though his TvZ isnt the greatest, should have beaten Shine...but he didn't. fantasy got beaten down in less than 10 minutes.
In the Round of 8 was Where I was the most surprised. Shine 2-1ed the other half of Taek-Bang, Stork, in the same fashion he 2-1ed the First half of Taek-Bang. Maybe Stork was just caught off guard that 3rd game, but he should have known that if Shine sees a weak Protoss front, he's gonna bustya.
Come on guys, he had the HARDEST road in the OSL Ever (hey another pun).
Taek-Bang Fantasy EffOrt And now Movie
The semifinals will be close. Movie's PvZ is on fire but Shine's ZvP is also on fire.
I think it could go 3:2 to either player, but if Shine moves on, it will be time to test his ZvT against the Ultimate Weapon (who is probably going to roll Calm). I KNOW that Flash is a freaking beast right now and that no one, not even Jaedong, is giving him a difficult time. But, this is the season of upsets is it not? Shine has shown upsets after upsets. He can do it again.
This is just speaking of the OSL too. Shine is also 9 - 3 in the 09-10 Proleague, although only Effort is worthy to note.
If Shine takes this OSL, I will believe 100% that he is the next Jaedong.
P.S. To everyone who says his ZvP is his only good matchup. His best match up is ZvZ statiscally and he's 2-0 (i think?) against Effort and nearly beat Calm showing that he can do extremely well even if ecnomically behind. His ZvT is weak, yes, I said that, but it's not super terrible like Hyuk's.
On December 30 2009 08:44 mOnion wrote: could you include in your title what the spoilers are for? that would be awesome.
i believe shine is doing well, but i'm not so sure he's the next jaedong. he has difficulty with consistency and seems to only do well vP
his vZ isnt nearly as strong as JD's, efforts, or zero's.
but his match against movie is gonna be awesome to watch.
Oh shoot...I can't change a title right? Well anyways, the Round of 8 finished like 4 days ago but I didn't want anyone flipping out on me for spoilers
On December 30 2009 08:44 mOnion wrote: could you include in your title what the spoilers are for? that would be awesome.
i believe shine is doing well, but i'm not so sure he's the next jaedong. he has difficulty with consistency and seems to only do well vP
his vZ isnt nearly as strong as JD's, efforts, or zero's.
but his match against movie is gonna be awesome to watch.
Oh shoot...I can't change a title right? Well anyways, the Round of 8 finished like 4 days ago but I didn't want anyone flipping out on me for spoilers
ya ya you should be fine, ppl should keep up with results anyway
"he was eliminated by hwasin of all people" is that something to be ashamed of? :S
edit: sorry, movie, shine, and other new comers are good. Nonetheless the idea of a Flash vs Movie or Flash vs Shine final is not a happy one. Not because of the name value- yes that hurts the idea of a final, but more importantly, because even if movie and shine double their abilities over night, do not choke whatsoever, and play the best sc of their career, neither has even a remote chance of taking a game off flash in the finals. A Flash vs xx finals is going to be a rape, no matter how promising they are. Neither of them should be in the semis at THIS point in their career. Not going to say they got through by luck or undeservingly, just that it would of been better for all involved [including their own confidence] if they didnt have the chance to reach the finals. Whoever gets there is going to be manhandled and probably slump into mediocrity.
On December 30 2009 08:48 Chill wrote: I think naming the thread "Time for him to shine (spoilers)" is pretty silly, since the the "spoilers" part specifically spoils everything.
Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
I think Shine's ZvP is for real. He played straight up games against Bisu and Stork and showed really strong play. Actually I was there when he eliminated Bisu and I saw so many girls crying haha. Anyways, at this point I really think he's a one-matchup sniper and will fall pretty quickly when the other two get put to the test.
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
You realize shine has a 2-2 record on El Nino? 1-2 if you don't count ZvZ.
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
Give the guy time and we will see. That comment at the end isnt the main point I'm trying to make. I'm just trying to prove to all the Shine-haters that he well deserves to be in the Round of 4. Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
Jaedong had 50% in zvp when he beat stork in the finals... Shine had a hard group and hard opponents yet he overcame it. And Kwanro def deserved to be in the finals last season, flash, zero, iris? Why does everyone shit on kwanro lol? Anyways, obviously anyone who gets to the semi's or the final deserves to be there, because they overcame who they had to play against, etc. Though I agree kwanro, shine etc, dont have the capacity [atm] to make a finals worthwhile because they dont have the capacity to push their play to the next level. Still, they deserve credit.
He's pretty good at ZvZ too. I don't think he's going to be able to beat Flash in a bo5 though, or even give him a good series, unless his ZvT has improved a lot. I don't even think I've seen Shine play a Terran since he started being noticed (when he eliminated Bisu).
How is he any different than Silver? His style does not favor consistency and he is going to run into a giant wall next season once people realize he can only win in a few limited ways. Until you can give some reason why he's different than Silver there's no reason to think he won't just lose in the semis/finals embarrassingly and fade away.
And he most definitely did not have anywhere near the hardest run ever especially with these maps. Unless he beats Flash it's not really all that impressive when you take into consideration the current condition of his opponents, maps, and the matchups he's playing them in.
You compared Shine to EffOrt and I couldn't read anymore.
The first reason is because it's true, Shine has magically done better in these starleagues then EffOrt, but also because it's terribly obvious that EffOrt is waaaay better than Shine, and you're going to ask for evidence, and no amount of games I produce will convince you of this.
Shine is a good player, but he's not a great player, and he will lose to Movie.
Also, Shine v. Flash would be a terrible series. I can just see it; Muta All-in, One Hatch Lurker, Muta All-In, Hydra All-In, Muta All-In.
On December 30 2009 08:58 Ver wrote: How is he any different than Silver? His style does not favor consistency and he is going to run into a giant wall next season once people realize he can only win in a few limited ways. Until you can give some reason why he's different than Silver there's no reason to think he won't just lose in the semis/finals embarrassingly and fade away.
And he most definitely did not have anywhere near the hardest run ever especially with these maps. Unless he beats Flash it's not really all that impressive when you take into consideration the current condition of his opponents, maps, and the matchups he's playing them in.
Shine plays like Kwanro, July, luxury, yarnc and yeah, jaedong. Thats his style, low econ. Silver wasnt low econ. He all-inned or banked on intelligent play, silver was more of a yell0w than anyone else. Hes blatantly different than silver because:
1) styles are drastically different 2) Shine hasnt abused his only competent mu to get where he is now, silver just played a shit ton of zvp's and then had a cripple fight with jju in order to get to the finals.
Seriously, why use silver? Least apt comparison I can imagine...
On December 30 2009 08:41 kb.RepulsE wrote: Okay so this guy could use some work with his ZvT but his other matchups seem very proficient. I'll admit, he was eliminated by Hwasin of all people in the Nate MSL round of 32 but that was ZvT, something I already said he needed work on.
I'm sorry, but what? Hwasin has always been a TvZ specialist. There's no shame in losing to him ZvT.
On December 30 2009 09:02 icemac wrote: He's just a one-hit wonder. Movie will beat him easily.
He just cleaned out Bisu and Stork and now Movie is a big favorite against him? I realize he may not be as great as his recent events dictate, but cmon.
If Shine makes it to the OSL finals, all he'll be doing is robbing us of a decent (Flash vs Movie) series. He'll try to all-in Flash 3 times in a row and fail miserably.
I've got to admit it, Shine is one of my favorite players now, just because of the hate he generates from all the fan-boys when he crushes their heroes.
Well Calm did that Mutalisk vs Protoss on El Nino against Pure which Shine did too, so Shine abused that map perfectly (not based on skills). Shine on game 3 vs Stork AGAIN abused the map of HBR's backdoor minerals and succeeded again. So in a sense, he abuses every single thing he can. His late game is pretty weak, if you watch the game of him vs Stork second game, he crumbled and his army got decimated by Stork's ball of death. His defense is pretty weak.
On December 30 2009 09:08 Hinanawi wrote: If Shine makes it to the OSL finals, all he'll be doing is robbing us of a decent (Flash vs Movie) series. He'll try to all-in Flash 3 times in a row and fail miserably.
Yeah, because he should just roll over for established players. He's playing to win and if he's at the finals, he deserved to get there. Everybody has to start somewhere; there's no point in shitting on new players just because you think they'll give you disappointing games despite evidence (wins vs. Stork, Bisu, etc.) of the contrary.
Shine is obviously a great player if he can get this far. Just because he won't 'fight like a man' or 'stand up to his opponent' or whatever doesn't mean he isn't a good player. The winner wins, the loser loses - this is how competition works.
Like Chill said, this guy's ZvP is the real deal. Going all muta or whatever doesn't matter. He obviously has good game sense ZvP. The guy made it this far by taking out at least 2 incredibly strong players - Bisu and Stork.
I don't see how anyone could hate someone who gives such entertaining games.
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
On December 30 2009 09:22 Emon_ wrote: Have you seen the games against Bisu?
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
On December 30 2009 09:22 Emon_ wrote: Have you seen the games against Bisu?
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
On December 30 2009 09:22 Emon_ wrote: Have you seen the games against Bisu?
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
So why isn't Bisu just countering Shine's predictable hydras? Is it because hydras are an auto-win? Or is it because there's a deeper metagame that is keeping Bisu off-balance, unable to confidently prepare for hydras, and Shine is taking adv of that?
On December 30 2009 09:22 Emon_ wrote: Have you seen the games against Bisu?
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
So why isn't Bisu just countering Shine's predictable hydras? Is it because hydras are an auto-win? Or is it because there's a deeper metagame that is keeping Bisu off-balance, unable to confidently prepare for hydras, and Shine is taking adv of that?
There is no deeper meta game... Zerg just has an early game advantage that Shine exploits. The moment he loses that advantage he loses the game.
On December 30 2009 09:22 Emon_ wrote: Have you seen the games against Bisu?
I just rewatched the three sets of the OSL09 Ro36 on youtube. Set 1 - Shine spams hydras and wins. Set 2 - Shine spams hydras and Bisu storms them and Bisu wins. Set 3 - Shine spams hydras and wins.
All hail Shine!
More of a Bisu loss then Shine win. Soon enough someone will school him 3-0. Just like Bisu schooled FBH when he was on his protoss rampage.
In set 2 of Shine vs Stork in the OSL09 Ro8 we got to see a glimpse of the real Shine. Completely cracking at the sight of a drawn out macro game. Stork didn't even twitch.
Scrubby Zerg Shine has no chance at all against Flash and I hope Movie beats him. If he does - Movie can give Flash a real run for his money for the OSL gold.
So why isn't Bisu just countering Shine's predictable hydras? Is it because hydras are an auto-win? Or is it because there's a deeper metagame that is keeping Bisu off-balance, unable to confidently prepare for hydras, and Shine is taking adv of that?
There is no deeper meta game... Zerg just has an early game advantage that Shine exploits. The moment he loses that advantage he loses the game.
this
and @OP: Nobody is "bad" at ZvZ, not counting old players and a few really bad Progamers. This is why Zerg is the "best" race nowadays. One Good MU (ZvP), One bad MU (ZvT) and one coin-flip MU (ZvZ). I know JD was one step ahead but this time is gone, muta micro is something everybody can learn very fast with a coach and determination ( in _comparison_ to other aspects of the game of course)
On December 30 2009 09:40 Ikonn wrote: He just has no charisma.
Wrong. Everyone says that he is the most mannered player ever, and was a total baller at the group selections. Everyone was all set to hate him for knocking bisu out with gay muta snipes, and then shine was like yo im awesome.
Unless the player cheesed his way to where he is, he deserves it. There's no such thing as "he doesn't deserve the spot" (unless through excessive cheesing).
I actually really enjoy Shine's ZvP; aggressive zerg players make this matchup much more interesting.
On December 30 2009 09:12 Xiphos wrote: Well Calm did that Mutalisk vs Protoss on El Nino against Pure which Shine did too, so Shine abused that map perfectly (not based on skills). Shine on game 3 vs Stork AGAIN abused the map of HBR's backdoor minerals and succeeded again. So in a sense, he abuses every single thing he can. His late game is pretty weak, if you watch the game of him vs Stork second game, he crumbled and his army got decimated by Stork's ball of death. His defense is pretty weak.
Uh, that's not "abusing" the map. It's stupid to not use the map to your advantage. Blame the map designers not the players.
Shine is definitely playing to his strengths which everyone should be doing. I'm just not a fan of his style of play. If there is a weakness in Protoss's defense he exploits it nicely. If there is no present weakness, he tries to force his way in and loses if he can't open an alley for attack. I feel like he plays a more foreign style zerg rather then the common management style with an aggressive undertone.
edit: Oh he also stays true to julyzerg's style more then any other. Jaedong is more of a mix between management and aggressive zergstyles. If this were july people would be kissing his ass right now for taking out bisu and stork with his sexy aggressive play.
On December 30 2009 09:12 Xiphos wrote: Well Calm did that Mutalisk vs Protoss on El Nino against Pure which Shine did too, so Shine abused that map perfectly (not based on skills). Shine on game 3 vs Stork AGAIN abused the map of HBR's backdoor minerals and succeeded again. So in a sense, he abuses every single thing he can. His late game is pretty weak, if you watch the game of him vs Stork second game, he crumbled and his army got decimated by Stork's ball of death. His defense is pretty weak.
In the second game he went all-in off of 3 bases and after that scrambled to defend. He was very behind for the last half of the game, it was actually very impressive defense for him not to just roll over. He lost probably 30-40 hydras trying to break Stork's third and didn't kill very many units for it. Imagine Stork trying to break out of that lurker contain with all the hydras Shine lost for nothing present and it's pretty apparent that he wouldn't have been able to for at least 2 or 3 more minutes, if ever. His play style is going to put him into these situations frequently, I would imagine, but it doesn't mean that his lategame is automatically weak, per se.
Also, Shine is different from Kwanro in that his attacks come at much later timings and different economic levels. If anything he's more similar to July's zvp style.
On December 30 2009 10:18 kNyTTyM wrote: Shine is definitely playing to his strengths which everyone should be doing. I'm just not a fan of his style of play. If there is a weakness in Protoss's defense he exploits it nicely. If there is no present weakness, he tries to force his way in and loses if he can't open an alley for attack. I feel like he plays a more foreign style zerg rather then the common management style with an aggressive undertone. edit: Oh he also stays true to julyzerg's style more then any other. Jaedong is more of a mix between management and aggressive zergstyles. If this were july people would be kissing his ass right now for taking out bisu and stork with his sexy aggressive play.
Now that I have no disposition to any of the remaining OSL players, I want Shine to win the whole thing. There have always been heroes in starcraft, but there as never been a villain. If Shine upsets Flash... dammmnnn,
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
...Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
i hate statements like this. kwanro would beat 99.9% of TL no problem. doesn't change the fact kwanro fucking blows (relatively) and that final was one of the most miserable excuses of professional starcraft play ever witnessed in an msl championship
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
...Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
i hate statements like this. kwanro would beat 99.9% of TL no problem. doesn't change the fact kwanro fucking blows (relatively) and that final was one of the most miserable excuses of professional starcraft play ever witnessed in an msl championship
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
...Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
i hate statements like this. kwanro would beat 99.9% of TL no problem. doesn't change the fact kwanro fucking blows (relatively) and that final was one of the most miserable excuses of professional starcraft play ever witnessed in an msl championship
Kwanro vs Calm was much more interesting than JD vs Yarnc.
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
...Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
i hate statements like this. kwanro would beat 99.9% of TL no problem. doesn't change the fact kwanro fucking blows (relatively) and that final was one of the most miserable excuses of professional starcraft play ever witnessed in an msl championship
why not 100%? just asking
he has a 50% chance of losing if he fails an all-in vs idra
On December 30 2009 08:54 SkytoM wrote: Shine is awful, you say next JD when he got a MU in < 50%.. have the Standards fallen so low?
A good player has all MU's >60%.
Shine suckz. and he is just there because bisu only trained for really ( and bisu is a moron for doing that , no offense ), and el nino. Every season there is a " breakthrough " player, then comes the (deserved) hate and now (as always) defending threads. dude, this is a by.hero right there. or even worse a yarnc or type-b.
He is nothing special nor will he accomplish anything ever. its like kwanro in the finals if shine gets into OSL finals. Just a shame.
...Plus, he would rape all you haters in an sc match anyways so show a little respect lol.
i hate statements like this. kwanro would beat 99.9% of TL no problem. doesn't change the fact kwanro fucking blows (relatively) and that final was one of the most miserable excuses of professional starcraft play ever witnessed in an msl championship
kwanro's won 60% of his games in 2009, how the fuck does he blow?! Your just a blind anti fan lol.
The thing I hate is that new players beat the really good players and then go into a slump. The idea that no-namers gain bonjwa status by beating the favorites is long gone. Just look at Mind, Luxury, ForGG. At least they earned a title. Players like Shine, Type-B, BackHo did nothing of that sort. They will upset the good players because of imbalances in matchups and then go on to the semis, crash and go back to being below 50% win rate players.
Im not even asking them to be bonjwas, at least win some games in the proleague dude!
On December 30 2009 10:57 G3nXsiS wrote: The thing I hate is that new players beat the really good players and then go into a slump. The idea that no-namers gain bonjwa status by beating the favorites is long gone. Just look at Mind, Luxury, ForGG. At least they earned a title. Players like Shine, Type-B, BackHo did nothing of that sort. They will upset the good players because of imbalances in matchups and then go on to the semis, crash and go back to being below 50% win rate players.
Im not even asking them to be bonjwas, at least win some games in the proleague dude!
Are we talking about different players? Because Shine is 9-3 in proleague and a huge reason why WeMade is in playoff contention.
On December 30 2009 10:57 G3nXsiS wrote: The thing I hate is that new players beat the really good players and then go into a slump. The idea that no-namers gain bonjwa status by beating the favorites is long gone. Just look at Mind, Luxury, ForGG. At least they earned a title. Players like Shine, Type-B, BackHo did nothing of that sort. They will upset the good players because of imbalances in matchups and then go on to the semis, crash and go back to being below 50% win rate players.
Im not even asking them to be bonjwas, at least win some games in the proleague dude!
Are we talking about different players? Because Shine is 9-3 in proleague and a huge reason why WeMade is in playoff contention.
shine has significantly less wins than players he has kicked out of the sl's, and the only notable win he has is against effort - in zvz. Shine's pl activity is low in profile because he rarely (if ever) plays ace for wemade, which he should, seeing that he has "stomped" all over so many great players. I suspect he never plays ace because his coaches know that he can't play a macro game and consistently relies on rushes to win.
Only reason I haven't been rooting for Shine is because of his poor ZvT. It's going to be rather disappointing OSL final when Shine rolls Movie over and then gets absolutely destroyed by Flash in an unentertaining manner.
A little off topic but I really wonder why people think that Flash vs Movie would be a better series than Flash vs Shine? Both kinda suck vs Terran (less than 50% winrate) and Sine's vT Elo is a few points higher than Movie's (although both are just about around 2000). Neither has a realistic chance of beating Flash in a Bo5. If people are factoring in Flash's relative weakness against Protoss, then that's idiotic since it only applies to the very best PvT players (which Movie isn't), while he crushes lesser Protosses like they are nothing.
On December 30 2009 09:27 cz wrote: So why isn't Bisu just countering Shine's predictable hydras? Is it because hydras are an auto-win? Or is it because there's a deeper metagame that is keeping Bisu off-balance, unable to confidently prepare for hydras, and Shine is taking adv of that?
I understand that Bisu could have done a better job countering Shine's attack. That doesn't justify the attack or Shine as a gamer. Shine doesn't deliver win or lose.
The opposite to Shine is Zero. Zero has complete confidence in his micro and macro to the point where he can control the game. Early aggression or late game macro fight, he can handle it. Doesn't necessarily win - but no one can doubt him. Zero has recently played versus Flash, Stork, Movie and Pure and he's delivered in all of the games.
Mining out the back minerals or spamming Hydras versus Protoss might win you a game or two, but that doesn't mean you can play ZvP.
Sure, people really underestimate Shine. People tend to forget that Flash used to be a cheesy noob in the past like Shine too. Anyway, I much prefer to see Flash vs Movie though, since because a Protoss would have a higher chance of winning
On December 30 2009 08:48 Chill wrote: I think naming the thread "Time for him to shine (spoilers)" is pretty silly, since the the "spoilers" part specifically spoils everything.
A more spoiler thread than the famouse "Why Calm will win this msl" ??? xDD
i like shines zvp, i really do, he is not afraid to gamble when he is in position to do so, or play solid when needed, very good overall in this matchup those crybabies who say he does nothing but hydra breaks are haters with no clue. against movie should be really great matches and is hard to tell what will happen, i just hope none of them chokes with all the semifinal thingy.
his zvz is quite ok too from what i've seen, solid, but yeah it's zvz so nobody is safe.
zvt needs some work but its too early to tell, yeah he lost vs Hwasin MSL but he is really good tvz.
even tho i like him, his style is very defined and that will make him an easier target for other players in the long run imho.
Shine is fucking amazing. And I don't know if his mechanics allow it but his mind will make him 2/3rd best zerg in the world (competing with Zero and Jaedong). Anyone who doubts this watch Shine vs Violet on destination.
On December 30 2009 11:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Shine is fucking amazing. And I don't know if his mechanics allow it but his mind will make him 2/3rd best zerg in the world (competing with Zero and Jaedong). Anyone who doubts this watch Shine vs Violet on destination.
imo shine is just another zotw, following the ranks of hyvaa/hyuk/saint/kwanro/type-b/etc there is nothing special about his play besides his muta micro
On December 30 2009 08:56 emucxg wrote: Shine vs Flash would be awsome
no it wouldn't, shine can't keep up macro-wise.
So? Julyzerg wouldn't have been able to keep up with best macro-wise, but still managed to win a golden mouse off of him 3-0.
Did you even fucking watch that series? Watch game 3 and tell me that July didn't out macro him.
At the position July was at, I don't think it was very hard to outmacro Best w/ all those bases..
So July did outmacro BeSt.
Honestly, would it matter if July had beaten Best sauron style in game 3 or in a similar manner to game 1 and 2? Point is july is generally a low econ player, and his STYLE conclusivelly won him 2 games in the final of a recent starleague, going down the list of all other aggressive zergs and their wins at the highest level...macro is a very important part of sc and cant be entirely ignored, but low econ players shouldnt be dismissed as people going through a bag of tricks. Many respectable players use that style, and have won at the highest levels, and continue to do so. July didnt eve need to macro against best, he would of won either way. If people wanna bash shine, sure, just dont bash him because hes low econ. That really has no bearing on his potential.
On December 30 2009 12:18 iamho wrote: imo shine is just another zotw, following the ranks of hyvaa/hyuk/saint/kwanro/type-b/etc there is nothing special about his play besides his muta micro
going to have to agree with him.
he will fizzle out when he cant rely on his ZvP to carry him.
On December 30 2009 12:18 iamho wrote: imo shine is just another zotw, following the ranks of hyvaa/hyuk/saint/kwanro/type-b/etc there is nothing special about his play besides his muta micro
going to have to agree with him.
he will fizzle out when he cant rely on his ZvP to carry him.
Can someone start a list of names of those who think Shine will just fizzle and fail out and a list of names for those Shine is legit and will get far? I just want to be able to point my fingers and laugh when the OSL is over.
Seriously, theres nothing better than reading these threads to hype up games :D problem is i can't make up my mind.... Shine Rising star or one hit wonder? one thing i do know is that after seeing jaedong vs flash i really don't think shine could bring anything at all to such a vs flash final....
Movie is good at analysing Z's and preparing a solid build to bust some weakness in that z's play. Other good Ps have lost because they didn't prepare for shine's aggressive style. I seriously doubt movie will make the same mistake, when he can just force a macro game and win.
No one's saying Shine didn't deserve his spot in the OSL. He fucking did. But so far he looks to be just another one-hit wonder until he proves the contrary.
I hate Shine. It is a shameless hatred. It is based on nothing solid. But I need something to make Starcraft interesting.
Personally, I will uphold my biased opinion that Shine will be this one hit wonderkid who makes far into the OSL, once, and then disappear from the world. Tons of players in the past did that. I am sure that he will be no different.
Oh, and I will definitely watch Flash v.s. Shine if it is the OSL final. I will love to watch him getting raped and send out of the league flying 0-3.
Only if his grandma isn't there...it would make hating him easier.
You talk as if being in the OSL semis means something. by.hero did it and now he's failing (I still think he can come back though, hero fighting!), type-b did it and we know where that's going. Yarnc made it to the finals, it still didn't mean anything.
On December 30 2009 14:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: You talk as if being in the OSL semis means something. by.hero did it and now he's failing (I still think he can come back though, hero fighting!), type-b did it and we know where that's going. Yarnc made it to the finals, it still didn't mean anything.
Do you somehow consider "good players" to only consist of like the top 4 in the world or something? Being in the OSL semis DOES mean something. It means he's had to prepare effectively for 3 bo3's, which means the opponent is going to be preparing hard for that too. It's not just "one proleague game," it's a game with huge implications considering that it's a starleague with thousands in prize money. If there's ANYTHING that means something, it's how someone does in the OSL or the MSL.
Especially if you consider that one of those bo3's was against Bisu, and then another one was against Stork. He also played against Fantasy and Effort and won both of those. While you can criticize his late game play and what-not, saying being in the OSL semis means nothing is unthoughtful :\
I think the comparison to July is apt. A lot of people are saying that Shine is incapable of macroing, but I think his strategies are just more aggression-based like July's strategies. Ever since Savior, we haven't really had a non-management Zerg style come to the forefront. We've seen a bit of it with Kwanro who is not terribly successful with it. We've seen Jaedong take a handful of games with super-aggression, but this is more Jaedong than Zerg in general. Shine just represents an aggressive mindset. This may be suboptimal or weak compared to the macro game, but it sure as hell works for him - especially in this macro-heavy environment.
Also, saying that July outmacroed Best in the third set is misleading. It was July's gamesense and his opponent's psychological disadvantage that allowed July to do as he pleased with the map. It wasn't July's incredible macro ability that put him in the lead in that game. It was pure gamesense and experience. Once you have a huge lead and can expand at will, being able to outmacro your opponent is not significant, it is expected.
I remember something at the MSL group selection, Shine wanted to play with July because he said he grew up watching him and respected him. July was flattered, and mentioned that most new Zergs say their favorite player is Savior.
A lot of people can randomly just rise up, own shit up for a few months, win a starleague against the top people at the time, go through a whole bunch of hype/hate + Show Spoiler +
then drop off into nothing.
Look at ForGG, Mind, Much, Luxury, GGPlay, and lots of others. They all have starleague wins. After they won, they started sucking, and never really recovered.
I'm not saying "shine is gay cheesy fag noob", but "Shine can be the next Jaedong" is stupid.
Don't forget, type-b got to the semifinals last OSL.
On December 30 2009 14:32 Loanshark wrote: A lot of people can randomly just rise up, own shit up for a few months, win a starleague against the top people at the time, go through a whole bunch of hype/hate + Show Spoiler +
then drop off into nothing.
Look at ForGG, Mind, Much, Luxury, GGPlay, and lots of others. They all have starleague wins. After they won, they started sucking, and never really recovered.
I'm not saying "shine is gay cheesy fag noob", but "Shine can be the next Jaedong" is stupid.
Don't forget, type-b got to the semifinals last OSL.
I agree with the OP that people should stop hating on shine just because he beat their favourite player, he did so straight up and deserves to be where he is right now.
That being said, MOVIE, DESTROY THIS MOTHERFUCKER!
What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
On December 30 2009 14:45 7mk wrote: I agree with the OP that people should stop hating on shine just because he beat their favourite player, he did so straight up and deserves to be where he is right now.
That being said, MOVIE, DESTROY THIS MOTHERFUCKER!
I totally disagree with your first point, but I wholeheartedly agree with your redeeming second point.
Edit: I think hatred is just a part of the entertainment. It is what makes sports interesting. I tried pretty hard to hate Jaedong, but the kid is too likable to hate. I have found my new target. I will not loose my grip on it.
Personally I want to see a flash vs movie final. Though flash's tvz is currently god-like and his tvp is dwindling, I still think his tvp is more interesting to watch. Shine would just get crushed, but movie probably has a chance.
On December 30 2009 08:55 Chill wrote: I think Shine's ZvP is for real. He played straight up games against Bisu and Stork and showed really strong play. Actually I was there when he eliminated Bisu and I saw so many girls crying haha. Anyways, at this point I really think he's a one-matchup sniper and will fall pretty quickly when the other two get put to the test.
Yeah I agree with this. Reminds me a lot of by.Hero
On December 30 2009 14:45 dukethegold wrote: What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
He used Queens pretty creatively against Violet on Destination.
On December 30 2009 14:45 dukethegold wrote: What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
When Shine wins straight up games, it's not good enough for you. If Shine goes some 2-hatch build all-in, you all yell, "Ahh can't even play straight up! Boo!"
On December 30 2009 14:45 dukethegold wrote: What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
When Shine wins straight up games, it's not good enough for you. If Shine goes some 2-hatch build all-in, you all yell, "Ahh can't even play straight up! Boo!"
Seriously. Fuck you little haters.
Ding Ding. People have just decided to hate him and will justify it however they can. The fact is that his ZvP is fucking solid and that's all we've basically seen out of him. He will do well against Movie.
On December 30 2009 14:45 dukethegold wrote: What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
When Shine wins straight up games, it's not good enough for you. If Shine goes some 2-hatch build all-in, you all yell, "Ahh can't even play straight up! Boo!"
Seriously. Fuck you little haters.
Exactly. Complete fucking hypocrites who can't handle their favorite player getting destroyed.
On December 30 2009 10:42 lone_hydra wrote: here have always been heroes in starcraft, but there as never been a villain. If Shine upsets Flash... dammmnnn,
You obviously weren't around in the days of Matler, or even iloveoov.
Yeah im glad youre on his nuts and all, but he isnt a great player. He is a good player who might turn great. So far ive only been impressed by a few of his games.
On December 30 2009 14:19 DefMatrixUltra wrote: I think the comparison to July is apt. A lot of people are saying that Shine is incapable of macroing, but I think his strategies are just more aggression-based like July's strategies. Ever since Savior, we haven't really had a non-management Zerg style come to the forefront. We've seen a bit of it with Kwanro who is not terribly successful with it. We've seen Jaedong take a handful of games with super-aggression, but this is more Jaedong than Zerg in general. Shine just represents an aggressive mindset. This may be suboptimal or weak compared to the macro game, but it sure as hell works for him - especially in this macro-heavy environment.
Also, saying that July outmacroed Best in the third set is misleading. It was July's gamesense and his opponent's psychological disadvantage that allowed July to do as he pleased with the map. It wasn't July's incredible macro ability that put him in the lead in that game. It was pure gamesense and experience. Once you have a huge lead and can expand at will, being able to outmacro your opponent is not significant, it is expected.
Haven't there actually been more aggressive Zergs recently? There's Kwanro, Luxury, JD, yarnc, calm? It's easier for me to play aggressively and end the game quick than dragging it out, especially with T and P han bang armies that are such a pain in the ass to kill.
And I don't really see anything wrong with Shine lol. I love Effort and Stork but Shine's gotta win too.
I think shine is pretty cool, but im definitely pulling for movie to win because I really like movie and no matter who wins between calm/flash the finals will be a whole lot more exciting than if shine wins.
I think Shine's OSL run reminds me of July's Golden House OSL run. They are both vP specialists and are playing against players whose vZ matchup is not their strongest. And it so happens both their opponents are mainly protoss. I think I would place Shine above Kwanro, above below Calm.
But I am no doubt going to watch Movie vs Shine. Thats going to be epic. GL to both
On December 31 2009 10:16 Xiphos wrote: Well when BackHo was good back then, did we call him bonjwa?
Backho wasn't very popular when he first came on to the scene, unlike say Perfectman, who was introduced to most of us in a pretty impressive game vs Iris in the playoffs.
Anyways, I think Backho premiered before the whole 'bonjwa' calling silliness began.
Shine is a solid player, he has potential to go places. Hes not just beating up washed up players either hes beating the top protosses thats pretty impressive and i think he should at most be a #5 in the power rankings but thats just my opinion.
On December 30 2009 14:45 dukethegold wrote: What makes me hate Shine is that he is defeating high profile players with basically standard play. They are really good, refined, even entertaining standard play. But it is still standard play.
If I missed something here, that Shine came up with an innovative/creative play, feel free to correct me.
When Shine wins straight up games, it's not good enough for you. If Shine goes some 2-hatch build all-in, you all yell, "Ahh can't even play straight up! Boo!"
Seriously. Fuck you little haters.
to be fair are you sure that dukethegold at an earlier time said he didn't like shine because he played too cheesy? If not are you just assuming that everyone who hates shine operates in some sort of hivemind?
still its pretty funny how people can have such widely different opinions on why not to like shine lol
Shine is good, but I worry about his ZvT. If he meets Flash he will be torn to complete fucking shreds. His best chance is to hope that Calm beats Flash, because Shine is good at ZvZ as well as ZvP.
And stop with the hating of Silver. The real reason you all hate him is because he was yet another prominent figure in a long line of Zergs who slay Protoss players left and right.
number of shine haters in the foreign community is rather surprising as in Korea it really took the opposite effect. Alot of people were disappointed that both stork AND bisu fell to the hands of this new aggressive Zerg, but on the otherhand Korea is calling him "The most entertaining Zerg since the Era of YellOw and July"
I have mixed feelings for Shine. Actually, it's kinda neutral now. I have no idea where these feelings will go. I want to find out.
Calm is one of the best ZvZers out there. I don't think Shine wins this OSL even if Calm pulls an upset over Flash.
Shine's play on El Nino was amazing as far as mind games go. He knew Stork would be going Sair/Reaver like he always does, plus El Nino is a good map for that because of the outer ring of expansions. So once he sees that Stork's not doing anything fishy, he just goes and builds tons of mutas, rendering the reavers useless.
On December 31 2009 12:13 MrHoon wrote: number of shine haters in the foreign community is rather surprising as in Korea it really took the opposite effect. Alot of people were disappointed that both stork AND bisu fell to the hands of this new aggressive Zerg, but on the otherhand Korea is calling him "The most entertaining Zerg since the Era of YellOw and July"
I have mixed feelings for Shine. Actually, it's kinda neutral now. I have no idea where these feelings will go. I want to find out.
If Shine proves to have a very nice ZvT then I will not hate him as much. Right now, I feel he's just abusing a matchup that's skewed in Zerg favor. Sure, he's abusing it better than some other zergs but it's just nothing special.
This is the same reason I don't go all rah rah happy when Stork beats Leta or Sea or Really. It's just to be expected.
I really liked Shine after watching his crazy games vs. Really, stared hating him after he killed off Bisu and fantasy, hated him a little less after beating effort and watching him outplay Violet, and I FCKING HATED HIM after he beat Stork.
Then I like him a lot again after I found out how hated he was. I was like fck, this kid is the biggest and hated underdog ever, I love it. Best thing to happen to WeMade in a while and he is capable of abusing maps and match ups to the fullest which any good progamer should be doing.
I like Shine fine, I just would've preferred to see protoss NOT lose to zerg. Especially with how strong Stork has been... but I don't hate the player for it.
Really like Shine as a player, but his style makes it even more satisfying to see your favourite player crush him. Kill Bisu a 1000 more times, Shine, but Stork not once more. Seriously.
On January 01 2010 05:44 jalstar wrote: Idea for nickname: dragon slayer
Every time he's faced one of the 6 dragons he's won the first game, although he hasn't played BeSt or free yet.
He's already the Typhoon. Isn't hwasin supposed to be the dragon slayer? Or is that just a name that gets tossed around once a player beats all of the dragons?
On December 30 2009 09:00 tree.hugger wrote: You compared Shine to EffOrt and I couldn't read anymore.
The first reason is because it's true, Shine has magically done better in these starleagues then EffOrt, but also because it's terribly obvious that EffOrt is waaaay better than Shine, and you're going to ask for evidence, and no amount of games I produce will convince you of this.
DISCLAIMER: I dislike EffOrt and always have, apart from that one game where he took Luxury apart with insane muta-ling multitask off a spore turtle. Top 3 ZvZ of 2009. But I digress.
EffOrt doesn't have what it takes to be great; he has 0 clutch. He's the best thing CJ has for an ace player at the moment, and he's very good. Very very good. He can play with anybody. But he's just not got enough focus to bring home gold. Along with the likes of Leta, Kal, and Light, he heads the ranks of my "just never going to win a Starleague" list.
Shine may not have the same consistency, but he's got better - bigger? - drive and huge upside; he has an "edge". He may not be quantifiably "better", but right now he's playing just as well and getting at least comparable results.
Just for the hell of it, here are the current top 7 ELO Zergs' game records since the beginning of October, a date I selected more or less at random, but more or less marks the start of the new season.
Shine's been playing as well as the best of them now. His record is just as good as EffOrt's, except he dropped SL games instead of PL ones. Yes, he's #7 ELO. But his current ELO is his peak ELO; all the others are well below their peaks except for Kwanro.
Oh, and one more thing? Shine is 2-0 against EffOrt. I know it's ZvZ, but isn't EffOrt supposed to be good at ZvZ?
To me, Shine is more of a one-hit wonder along with the likes of Mind and fOrGG. Even if he does take the OSL this year (which I seriously doubt), we will most likely never see anything from him ever again.
Shine is not a bad player, but I honestly think people have a tendency of hyping up prospective players to be the next best thing too much. It happened with Leta, it happened with Calm and is now happening with Shine. Just beacuse someone has the potential to be great does not mean that they WILL be great. For all we know, by next season, Bisu might defeat Shine with ease and then Shine will forever fall into obscurity.
All I am saying is that people get excited over upsets way too easily. It takes more then a good run in a Starleague for a player to become one of the greats.
See, my enjoyment of Shine's play falls in between the extremes. I don't care if he's a force to be reckoned with for the rest of SC's existence. And, I don't care if he's a one hit wonder. I'm just enjoying the ride because it's nice to see a WeMade zerg do well (don't mention Silver) and I actually really enjoy his style. He hasn't cheesed which would be a big no-no for me to like him as much as I do.
On January 01 2010 07:09 Tom Phoenix wrote: To me, Shine is more of a one-hit wonder along with the likes of Mind and fOrGG. Even if he does take the OSL this year (which I seriously doubt), we will most likely never see anything from him ever again.
Shine is not a bad player, but I honestly think people have a tendency of hyping up prospective players to be the next best thing too much. It happened with Leta, it happened with Calm and is now happening with Shine. Just beacuse someone has the potential to be great does not mean that they WILL be great. For all we know, by next season, Bisu might defeat Shine with ease and then Shine will forever fall into obscurity.
All I am saying is that people get excited over upsets way too easily. It takes more then a good run in a Starleague for a player to become one of the greats.
Leta's success was largely due to mech maps and Calm is easily the third or even second best Zerg in the world.
rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
On January 01 2010 07:09 Tom Phoenix wrote: To me, Shine is more of a one-hit wonder along with the likes of Mind and fOrGG. Even if he does take the OSL this year (which I seriously doubt), we will most likely never see anything from him ever again.
Shine is not a bad player, but I honestly think people have a tendency of hyping up prospective players to be the next best thing too much. It happened with Leta, it happened with Calm and is now happening with Shine. Just beacuse someone has the potential to be great does not mean that they WILL be great. For all we know, by next season, Bisu might defeat Shine with ease and then Shine will forever fall into obscurity.
All I am saying is that people get excited over upsets way too easily. It takes more then a good run in a Starleague for a player to become one of the greats.
Leta's success was largely due to mech maps and Calm is easily the third or even second best Zerg in the world.
Given, Calm is still doing relatively well. Yet, his short-lived MSL run has already made a significant dent in his reputation as the next best thing that was built up after his Avalon MSL victory. As for Leta...he is the new Sea[Shield]. A successful ProLeague player condemned to never do well in individual leagues.
I will admit that perhaps Calm is not the best example of what I am trying to convey. But my point still stands. Shine doing well now is by no means a guaruantee that he will do well next season, the season after that or any other season for the rest of his career for that matter. Of course, there is also no guaruantee that he will NOT do well. But there have been many one-hit wonders in StarCraft`s history and Shine has yet to show anything that would indicate he is not another one of those.
On January 01 2010 06:42 Musoeun wrote: Oh, and one more thing? Shine is 2-0 against EffOrt. I know it's ZvZ, but isn't EffOrt supposed to be good at ZvZ?
Use TLPD. Statistically, ZvZ is by far Effort's worst right now. ZvP is his best. He's a really solid player all around and shows great potential. I don't know why you are hating on him.
On January 01 2010 08:57 yhnmk wrote: rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
Effort doesn't win when it counts most. He's fine up to a point; he doesn't make that last final step. I don't think he ever will. He's never made a final, call it bad luck or whatever but he hasn't. I don't think he ever will.
Shine is reminiscent of the season when Backho (blackho) single-handedly made the OSL crap by eliminating Bisu, Casy, and Jaedong. And realistically, he will meet the same end.
On January 01 2010 08:57 yhnmk wrote: rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
Effort doesn't win when it counts most. He's fine up to a point; he doesn't make that last final step. I don't think he ever will. He's never made a final, call it bad luck or whatever but he hasn't. I don't think he ever will.
A fine example of him not being clutch is his ace match against khan
also, while zvz might not be efforts strongest matchup, it is what he is known for, hell, shine is known for zvp now, but zvz is his strongest matchup. people expect effort to win his zvzs, and shine beating him twice is pretty impressive
On January 01 2010 08:57 yhnmk wrote: rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
Effort doesn't win when it counts most. He's fine up to a point; he doesn't make that last final step. I don't think he ever will. He's never made a final, call it bad luck or whatever but he hasn't. I don't think he ever will.
have we forgotten last round of PL already? A player loses 2 games out of 12 and he's not clutch?
On January 01 2010 08:57 yhnmk wrote: rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
Effort doesn't win when it counts most. He's fine up to a point; he doesn't make that last final step. I don't think he ever will. He's never made a final, call it bad luck or whatever but he hasn't. I don't think he ever will.
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about but then I suppose ace matches mean nothing nowadays.
On January 02 2010 07:14 Creationism wrote: Shine is reminiscent of the season when Backho (blackho) single-handedly made the OSL crap by eliminating Bisu, Casy, and Jaedong. And realistically, he will meet the same end.
And Jangbi rofl
oh and how is Effort not clutch? forgot about the super ace against khan?
Effort underachieved in individual leagues for 2 seasons (getting knocked out by ZvZ and BBS in all cases) and now idiots are saying "he'll never make it".
Wow.
Effort loses an ace match to Jangbi and idiots say he's not clutch. Not like he singlehandedly beat Samsung in the PL playoffs last year including an ace match and a super ace match....
Wow.
When swarm season ends, the player who stands to gain the MOST is Effort. He's a favorite in ZvT against every player except Flash, and a favorite in ZvP against every player. He hasn't been playing the same ZvP and ZvT styles as most Zergs, and thus stands less to lose when new metagame shifts are made.
Shine's a very good player. People just hate him because he beat their favourites in Bisu, Stork.
He's not top-level refined yet, but he's great at picking holes in his opponents play with his aggressive style. Once he has the foot on the throat, he doesn't let up.
He could definitely trouble someone like Flash (if he makes it) with his strong muta micro, but it's a matter if he could keep up in the mid to late game.
I'm defnitely a Shine fan though. I think there's something special about him.
On January 02 2010 07:14 Creationism wrote: Shine is reminiscent of the season when Backho (blackho) single-handedly made the OSL crap by eliminating Bisu, Casy, and Jaedong. And realistically, he will meet the same end.
I always recognized EffOrt for his ridiculous ZvZ (known to be pretty much on par with JD when he was on fire), but now I look at his statistics and he's raping ZvP and ZvZ is his worse MU. 74% ZvP, that's pretty beast.
i think you guys are judging effort by the wrong yardstick. the thing that shows how much a zerg stands above his peers tends to be their vT skills. effort.... is GOOD at vT. look at the way he simply overpowers so many terran opponents. watch his ace match game vs flash on heartbreak ridge from the last proleague season. that game was _shocking_ to me. i hadnt seen any other zerg take flash like that in a longer, management game other than jaedong.
it was the same as in the game vs light on moon glaive (i think it was before neo moon glaive).
this makes me think that effort is an outstanding player.
even after watching the OSL semi finals, i didnt get the same feel from calm. his mutalisk micro was amazing, but only in one game did the setting progress into the late game. two games were ended abruptly by flash's timing push. one game calm ended with his mutalisks.
the 3rd set developed into late game, where it felt like calm never stood a chance at defeating flash's tank mass. calm made it to the late game, but didnt set himself up to win. consequently, i dont think hes as good as effort. next time flash and effort play, well get a more up to date confirmation or denial of what im saying.
and to those saying that effort hasnt made a final.... he JUST won the ***ROOKIE*** award from kespa. the rookie award for gods sake!!! even flash hasnt made a final in ages. getting further in a league doesnt always mean youre a better player.
On January 02 2010 11:04 darktreb wrote: Effort underachieved in individual leagues for 2 seasons (getting knocked out by ZvZ and BBS in all cases) and now idiots are saying "he'll never make it".
Wow.
Effort loses an ace match to Jangbi and idiots say he's not clutch. Not like he singlehandedly beat Samsung in the PL playoffs last year including an ace match and a super ace match....
Wow.
When swarm season ends, the player who stands to gain the MOST is Effort. He's a favorite in ZvT against every player except Flash, and a favorite in ZvP against every player. He hasn't been playing the same ZvP and ZvT styles as most Zergs, and thus stands less to lose when new metagame shifts are made.
Effort and Zero for that matter will definitely win at least 1 title they are insanely skilled .
On January 01 2010 08:57 yhnmk wrote: rofl @ Effort not clutch. Anyone who wants to bm a player now a days without bming the player directly just says hes not clutch and runs away so he doesn't have to provide evidence. What a joke...
Effort doesn't win when it counts most. He's fine up to a point; he doesn't make that last final step. I don't think he ever will. He's never made a final, call it bad luck or whatever but he hasn't. I don't think he ever will.
have we forgotten last round of PL already? A player loses 2 games out of 12 and he's not clutch?
gotta love the morons
Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash lose two games in a row. Multiple threads/blogs slump threads are made.
Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash win an MSL or OSL. Multiple bonjwa threads are made.
On December 30 2009 08:56 emucxg wrote: Shine vs Flash would be awsome
no it wouldn't, shine can't keep up macro-wise.
Shine absolutely DIES late game where Flash shines Shine's play revolves around his lair tech units and his mutal control If Flash can defend up untill the late game he will roll shine ez
On December 30 2009 08:56 emucxg wrote: Shine vs Flash would be awsome
no it wouldn't, shine can't keep up macro-wise.
Shine absolutely DIES late game where Flash shines Shine's play revolves around his lair tech units and his mutal control If Flash can defend up untill the late game he will roll shine ez
You say this as if Flash's early game is a weakness...which it isn't.
Shine's play DOES revolve around lair tech units and muta control but it also relies around the fact that his early/mid game is BETTER than his opponents.
That and he has no inherent ZvP advantage to ride out against Flash because well.. Flash plays Terran. I still hold that Shine is a flash pan player. He'll make this OSL final MAYBE and then fall into obscurity.
Remember when Oov was performing in tvz similar to the level at which Flash is currently playing? In fact, it would be possible to say he was playing better comparatively than Flash is. (28-0, 17-0, whatever. It's pretty close though.)
July broke that streak. An aggressive, over the top zerg player.
On December 30 2009 08:56 emucxg wrote: Shine vs Flash would be awsome
no it wouldn't, shine can't keep up macro-wise.
Shine absolutely DIES late game where Flash shines Shine's play revolves around his lair tech units and his mutal control If Flash can defend up untill the late game he will roll shine ez
You say this as if Flash's early game is a weakness...which it isn't.
Shine's play DOES revolve around lair tech units and muta control but it also relies around the fact that his early/mid game is BETTER than his opponents.
That and he has no inherent ZvP advantage to ride out against Flash because well.. Flash plays Terran. I still hold that Shine is a flash pan player. He'll make this OSL final MAYBE and then fall into obscurity.
oh god. i didn't mean to say that Flash's early game is weak im just saying that Shine excels in using his tier 1 and tier 2 units
And considering how TvZ inherently favors the T, im pretty sure Flash will roll Shine if he does reach the finals
People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
How difficult is it for someone from a team like WeMade, or any other middle or lower-tier team, to become a star on Jaedong's level? A lot of the rookies who have been good over the last couple years seem to come from the top teams (Movie, Skyhigh, Effort, Best, Fantasy, Leta-back when hite was still one of the better teams), but recently players like Zero and Shine have played impressively.
One thing that Shine does have going for him in a potential OSL finals match against Flash is that his strength lies in Muta control and the only TvZ's that Flash has lost recently have been to strong Muta harass. That being said I would be surprised if Shine even manages to take one game off Flash, let alone somehow win the series.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
On January 07 2010 08:45 Day[9] wrote: I enjoy shine's ZvZ
not so hot on his other matchups though
nah well ok u might be right, his zvz is pretty good. But hes nothing special in the other mus i can agree on that.
Actualyl his ZvP IS impressive as well. He just needs to work on his ZvT, but who cares? Weren't there appreciated players with 1 poor MU compared to other? Like for example... FBH TvP? Jangbi PvZ? Movie's PvT - hahaha his PvT is actually sooo lacking that it's funny ;p (or even Flash's TvZ was lacking for some time compared to his other MUs, but it's kinda bad example)
On January 19 2009 20:30 KizZBG wrote: Shine is going to become a pretty decent player. I mean there's a reason he quallified for the OSL and used in PL.
I agree, hes not bad. Not next Jaedong. but maybe one of the top 10 zergs if he keeps performing.
I still stand by this, one year later.
Shines ZvP is exciting.
Yarnc and Type-Bs ZvT are exciting. Hogil and by.heros ZvP are exciting.
But they have weaknesses in the other matchups which are going to hold them back from entering top 3-5.
Luxury and Calm were both well established in every MU, and the clear #2 Zerg when they won their MSL titles last year. Effort and Zero are now looking like them, but they are not in any SLs, and they may not even win any SLs this year.
Shine is exciting, and pretty damn skilled in ZvP. I do hope he crushes Movie in an entertaining fashion. He will have to up his ZvT to take games from Flash in the final though.
What Im worried about is new Protoss players. Imo the only two notable ones breaking through in 2009 were Violet and Movie, as opposed to 2008 when Kal, Jangbi, and BeSt all established themselves as A class players.
Same can be said for Terran I guess with Skyhigh(whom is rapidly declining these days) and Really, but neither of these made it deep in any SLs all 2009, as opposed to 2008 when Leta, Fantasy, and fOrGG established themselves as A class players, the latter one declining to B-class in 2009.
On January 19 2009 20:30 KizZBG wrote: Shine is going to become a pretty decent player. I mean there's a reason he quallified for the OSL and used in PL.
I agree, hes not bad. Not next Jaedong. but maybe one of the top 10 zergs if he keeps performing.
I still stand by this, one year later.
Shines ZvP is exciting.
Yarnc and Type-Bs ZvT are exciting. Hogil and by.heros ZvP are exciting.
But they have weaknesses in the other matchups which are going to hold them back from entering top 3-5.
Luxury and Calm were both well established in every MU, and the clear #2 Zerg when they won their MSL titles last year. Effort and Zero are now looking like them, but they are not in any SLs, and they may not even win any SLs this year.
Shine is exciting, and pretty damn skilled in ZvP. I do hope he crushes Movie in an entertaining fashion. He will have to up his ZvT to take games from Flash in the final though.
What Im worried about is new Protoss players. Imo the only two notable ones breaking through in 2009 were Violet and Movie, as opposed to 2008 when Kal, Jangbi, and BeSt all established themselves as A class players.
Same can be said for Terran I guess with Skyhigh(whom is rapidly declining these days) and Really, but neither of these made it deep in any SLs all 2009, as opposed to 2008 when Leta, Fantasy, and fOrGG established themselves as A class players, the latter one declining to B-class in 2009.
Well, one cannot have breakthrough players every year. Kal is still performing just fine in my opinion. And even though Protoss players are not at the very top right now, overall in terms of racial representation, they are doing alright. Pity Bisu kinda crashed and burned (for his standards anyway)
What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R!
Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3.
Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career.
I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born.
While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie.
On January 07 2010 10:20 G3nXsiS wrote: What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R!
Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3.
Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career.
I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born.
While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie.
I don't know about that Bonjwa part. Flash is playing like an absolute beast as of late. Nothing seems to be able to even dent him as he destroys everything in his path.
As for Shine, he's good at making units, but his late game is questionable. But we'll see if he can pick it up when it counts.
I find it funny that people say - and not just concerning Shine here, but in generally also - with such conviction - which can be paralleled to religious nuts - that player X will do Y in the future.
Shine hasn't shown the level of play for people to accept his standards yet. He's just been getting ZvP and anybody can have a lucky run and go into the OSL semi's (backho). Once Shine has shown that he's an A-class then im sure the forum will have his fanboys. and Shine isn't "great" at ZvZ. you cant be amazing at ZvZ since theres always the coinflip element to it rather than the other MU's.
On January 07 2010 07:42 Nevuk wrote: Remember when Oov was performing in tvz similar to the level at which Flash is currently playing? In fact, it would be possible to say he was playing better comparatively than Flash is. (28-0, 17-0, whatever. It's pretty close though.)
July broke that streak. An aggressive, over the top zerg player.
Except that Oov and Flash have completely differing styles when it comes to their TvZ. Flash himself plays a VERY VERY aggressive TvZ now. Counter aggression isn't going to work well against Flash seeing as how he seems to defend flawlessly with almost no units while an army goes forth and kills the Zerg's natural.
Calm got the mutalisk timing right to SOMEWHAT deflect that but he still lost 1-3 even with that build. Calm has better mutalisks than Shine typically...
you know, all the guy's bashing his zvt, just cause you looked at his record and saw under 50% doesn't mean he's been consistently bad at it. he started off with a huge losing streak to T and has since then played decent zvt.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
On January 19 2009 20:30 KizZBG wrote: Shine is going to become a pretty decent player. I mean there's a reason he quallified for the OSL and used in PL.
I agree, hes not bad. Not next Jaedong. but maybe one of the top 10 zergs if he keeps performing.
Luxury and Calm were both well established in every MU, and the clear #2 Zerg when they won their MSL titles last year. Effort and Zero are now looking like them, but they are not in any SLs, and they may not even win any SLs this year.
Luxury was the clear #2 when he won MSL, but I think your assessment of Calm is off. Winning MSL was what proved he was #2. During that same season, Effort made some progress into all 3 leagues, cutting really deep into GOM (less important than MSL but still relevant), making third place there, beating Jaedong in a bo3 to get there. Had Calm not won MSL, I would have put Effort as the #2 Zerg at that time.
On January 07 2010 10:20 G3nXsiS wrote: What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R!
Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3.
Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career.
I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born.
While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie.
I don't know about that Bonjwa part. Flash is playing like an absolute beast as of late. Nothing seems to be able to even dent him as he destroys everything in his path.
In order for Flash to take the title of fifth bonjwa he needs to maintain this level of dominance for about a year, really. If he enters another slump again like he did after his last OSL win, he won't be worthy of the bonjwa title.
On January 07 2010 10:20 G3nXsiS wrote: What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R!
Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3.
Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career.
I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born.
While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie.
Ever since the Bisu vs Savior MSL, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, July, and GGplay have won in an individual league each out of 14 OSLs and MSLs. July's OSL win was very arguably the most "random" win as July got to dodge the shit out of ZvT and pretty much just blasted through with his best match up. Notice that ever since his OSL win he hasn't really been anywhere. July wasn't even one of the top Zerg players during his most recent OSL win; sure, his ZvP was in the top, but his other match ups? Not really. At the very least, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, and GGplay were all solid players considered to be one of the top players of their respective races, and didn't have any glaring weaknesses. Luxury even got decent at ZvP during his reign as the second best Zerg player which lasted for a little while. Besides those six players, each and every single individual league including GOM were won by Stork (1 OSL), Bisu (2 MSL, 1 GOM), Jaedong (3 OSL, 1 MSL, 1 GOM), and Flash (1 OSL, 1 GOM).
It is not as if during the bonjwa periods of Nada, iloveoov, and Savior, the bonjwas won all the SLs.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
Heres the difference.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time.
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions.
On January 07 2010 12:08 Mortality wrote: It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time.
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions.
I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa.
On January 07 2010 10:20 G3nXsiS wrote: What ppl like you(the OP) don't realize is that the time of bonjwas is over!!!!!! OVER!!! O V E R!
Since the chaotic era started that has not been any bonjwas. While I would say that Bisu, Flash and JaeDong can be called bonjwas, it is more of a shared title between the 3.
Since then the era where random players like Mind, Luxury, and forGG winning starleagues by beating favorites began. These guys win perform well in a starleague and immediately after that fall into a huge slump and never again come back. Shine is gonna be one of those guys! The 1 hit wonder who defeated favorites like Bisu and Stork and then go on to slump like shit for the rest of his career.
I have given up on bonjwas. Everytime a player wins a starleague for the first time or cause a huge upset ppl always think they are gonna be the next big thing but what they don't realize is that, these players lack consistency and together with a map pool that favors Z over P, players like shine are born.
While I would say that his ZvP and ZvZ is not that bad, I would say his ZvT sucks and there is no way in hell he will beat Flash should he get past Movie.
Ever since the Bisu vs Savior MSL, Mind, ForGG, Luxury, Calm, July, and GGplay have won in an individual league each out of 14 OSLs and MSLs. July's OSL win was very arguably the most "random" win as July got to dodge the shit out of ZvT and pretty much just blasted through with his best match up. Notice that ever since his OSL win he hasn't really been anywhere. July wasn't even one of the top Zerg players during his most recent OSL win; sure, his ZvP was in the top, but his other match ups? Not really.
Uh no, July still had to fight against T and Z players in the groups, and he was definitely top 3 zerg for a while in 2008.
On January 19 2009 20:30 KizZBG wrote: Shine is going to become a pretty decent player. I mean there's a reason he quallified for the OSL and used in PL.
I agree, hes not bad. Not next Jaedong. but maybe one of the top 10 zergs if he keeps performing.
Luxury and Calm were both well established in every MU, and the clear #2 Zerg when they won their MSL titles last year. Effort and Zero are now looking like them, but they are not in any SLs, and they may not even win any SLs this year.
Luxury was the clear #2 when he won MSL, but I think your assessment of Calm is off. Winning MSL was what proved he was #2. During that same season, Effort made some progress into all 3 leagues, cutting really deep into GOM (less important than MSL but still relevant), making third place there, beating Jaedong in a bo3 to get there. Had Calm not won MSL, I would have put Effort as the #2 Zerg at that time.
I just remember Effort hitting a really rough path where he lost 0-3 to Iris in GOM, 0-3 vs Calm in MSL, and getting 0-2ed by Jaedong in PL playoffs within a very short time, and thus I found it hard to consider him better than Calm after that point. Effort was definitely a clear #2 before that though, as he was doing equally good in PL, and also made it further in OSL and GOM. Im not denying that. If Calm had lost the final against Kwanro I would have still considered Calm #2 Zerg though, mostly because Calm looked really good in all his matches at that time(june-august), but partly due to Effort looking very weak in his matches against Iris.
On January 07 2010 05:36 Mortality wrote: In all fairness, I feel like a third of the TLnet community is too new to this game to really understand what a bonjwa is all about.
Actually, not even older members really know what it is about. The problem is, "bonjwa" is not an official title and thus there is no official criteria by which to judge if a player is a bonjwa or not. It is for that reason that people keep discussing if someone is or is not a bonjwa.
On January 07 2010 09:29 Catch]22 wrote: Dont act as if for example FBHs TvP is THAT bad, he's still at a very high level in TvP
With the exception of one good MSL run (which was eventually stopped cold by Bisu), FBH was always a punching bag for good Protosses. So I would hardly describe FBH`s TvP as "very high level".
One more thing. Why are people debating Shine`s chances against Flash? He needs to face Movie first and at least I think Movie has what it takes to stop Shine.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
Heres the difference.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point.
Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense.
However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth.
...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles.
By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series.
Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear.
On January 07 2010 07:42 Nevuk wrote: Remember when Oov was performing in tvz similar to the level at which Flash is currently playing? In fact, it would be possible to say he was playing better comparatively than Flash is. (28-0, 17-0, whatever. It's pretty close though.)
July broke that streak. An aggressive, over the top zerg player.
Except that Oov and Flash have completely differing styles when it comes to their TvZ. Flash himself plays a VERY VERY aggressive TvZ now. Counter aggression isn't going to work well against Flash seeing as how he seems to defend flawlessly with almost no units while an army goes forth and kills the Zerg's natural.
Calm got the mutalisk timing right to SOMEWHAT deflect that but he still lost 1-3 even with that build. Calm has better mutalisks than Shine typically...
Oov's TvZ was very very aggressive as well, aside from his mech experiments.
On January 07 2010 12:08 Mortality wrote: It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time.
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions.
I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa.
The best criteria is that they all won multiple MSLs to start and OSL(s) after they were already considered the dominant player of the time. Bisu came much closer to being a bonjwa than Jaedong did, but that was before most of Jaedong's fanboys started watching SC.
On January 07 2010 12:08 Mortality wrote: It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time.
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions.
I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa.
The best criteria is that they all won multiple MSLs to start and OSL(s) after they were already considered the dominant player of the time. Bisu came much closer to being a bonjwa than Jaedong did, but that was before most of Jaedong's fanboys started watching SC.
On January 07 2010 12:08 Mortality wrote: It's true that just because other players have won SL's doesn't mean there can't be a bonjwa. It's also true that the time of bonjwas is not necessarily past. However, there clearly isn't one right now. There clearly hasn't been one since Savior. Nobody has stood out as being definitively the best player in all of Starcraft for a long enough period of time to make a viable case for the bonjwa title. Jaedong is the closest in terms of accomplishments and Flash is closest in terms of dominance at peak form (both his current run and his run back during Bacchus instilled the same sense of one-sided dominance as a bonjwa does -- and his win records from these times show it!), but they can't both be bonjwas at the same time.
There are reasons why all the top players right now have an aversion to bonjwa discussions.
I've just become convinced that "bonjwa" is based on feel. Jaedong won the same amount of titles (more if you count GOM) as Savior in the same amount of time with a higher winning percentage. If there were a set of "bonjwa requirements", Jaedong would be a bonjwa.
The best criteria is that they all won multiple MSLs to start and OSL(s) after they were already considered the dominant player of the time. Bisu came much closer to being a bonjwa than Jaedong did, but that was before most of Jaedong's fanboys started watching SC.
Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
Heres the difference.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point.
Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense.
However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth.
...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles.
By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series.
Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear.
nice post mortality. is it just me or have you been posting extra much lately (past month or so..?) haha. anyway... yeah your comment about flash's weakest patr being early game scares me. i hope his antimuta skills are good enough though (assuming shine beats movie)
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
Yeap, I was kinda typing halfway.... then I found your post..... you pretty much got it
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
What's the pattern?
3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back.
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
What's the pattern?
3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back.
On January 07 2010 16:43 siv00 wrote: Also, he made it to 3 consecutive OSL finals so he was arguably a dominant force in the OSL for about as long as Nada dominated the KPGA tour, so it's somewhat true if only in reverse.
There is no special order of wins you need to be bonjwa. You simply (not simple) need: Absolute dominance over many seasons.
You have 4 bonjwas. It's not hard drawing random patterns from so few members.
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance.
There's nothing random about it. Another player who didn't fit the same pattern could be considered a bonjwa if they were dominant enough sure, but there has never been such a player.
What's the pattern?
3 MSLs followed by an OSL, or being Boxer. There was a translated article about it posted on here a while back.
Or being Savior.
Savior did do that, though - he's the definition, Ma Bonjwa.
Oh I see what you're saying, but really it's not the point of MSLs, it's the dominance that comes with it. Just like Boxer, he was dominant. And yes, they were absolutely dominant.
On January 07 2010 17:23 siv00 wrote:
Savior won leagues in a certain way and the term bonjwa was coined to describe him, looking back on history there were other players with similar dominance and medal winning patterns. And no player has ever had "absolute" dominance. .
Savior won leagues in a way different because of Chojja and yes there has been a player with "absolute" dominance. oov?
On January 07 2010 17:35 Avidkeystamper wrote: Oh I see what you're saying, but really it's not the point of MSLs, it's the dominance that comes with it. Just like Boxer, he was dominant. And yes, they were absolutely dominant.
Well, absolute dominance implies that they never lost, which certainly isn't true, considering Savior failed several times in OSL preliminaries, often in ZvZ. They were just far better than any other player of the time. And no it's not the MSL medals themselves but rather the mystique of having that particular combination of titles (Boxer has his own mystique) that is associated with the bonjwas, the most dominant players.
1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)."
On January 07 2010 17:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: "Let's summarize the assessments that he passed.
1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)."
It's not really the fact that they won MSLs then the OSL.
Yeah but none of that stuff is true of Nada or Oov either except like 1 and 5. That's just the explanation as to why Savior was important enough to define "bonjwa theory" rather than it being thought up earlier to describe Nada or Oov.
It wasn't thought up earlier, Savior coined the term and it was applied in retrospect. The point here is that continued dominance is the main vein behind the four bonjwas.
On January 07 2010 17:51 Avidkeystamper wrote: It wasn't thought up earlier, Savior coined the term and it was applied in retrospect. The point here is that continued dominance is the main vein behind the four bonjwas.
I said it was coined to describe Savior, yeah.
Basically, who is the definition of Bonjwa? Savior
And who else had a similar career to Savior's? Nada and Oov, and to a lesser extent Boxer.
You're thinking of it as I am saying "You have to have 3MSL+1OSL to be bonjwa" when I'm saying "Bonjwas have 3MSL+1OSL"
It's the source of a lot of the hype behind bonjwa, and it's why people were very excited about Bisu, because he appeared to be following the same pattern until he lost to Mind in the MSL/ failed to win any OSLs.
On January 07 2010 08:10 Weaponx3 wrote: People always seem to forget the better player doesnt always win, they are the favorite because the odds are in their favor but nothing is guaranteed or certain that is why we watch the game. With this in mind for some reason i have a feeling shine will win like all the hate for shine and all the praise we have for flash will just result in unbelievable series should they meet in the end. In my honest opnion i think shine can beat flash in the osl finals should they meet his last game was sloppy but he did have great multi tasking and spell casting was spot on. As well as being creative.
In a Bo5 the better player almost always wins.
Shine's ZvT is lacking, this is undeniable. Flash is now playing FvZ...
Yea advantage to Flash. Shine's late game is horrible
Shine's ZvT isn't nearly as lacking as I think you are thinking. As I've been saying repeatedly, his early-midgame is the best among any Zerg player right now. And as was stated in the OSL news article, he's like a smarter Kwanro. And we both know how the last bo3 went between Flash and Kwanro.
In this sense, Shine is both the best and worst possible for trying to take down Flash. He's the best because Flash only seems to lose if his opponent can defeat him in the early game. He's the worst because Flash should be aware of this weakness and all he needs to do is to break Shine's offense and Shine will inevitably lose.
But, the reason why Shine's late game is "horrible" is because he focuses everything on offense. If you can succeed in defending you will win. For Shine, the game is won or lost in the first 10 minutes every time.
Heres the difference.
The Flash of then and the Flash of now is very different. Even comparing the two of them is laughable and shouldn't even be bothered with.
His ZvT relies COMPLETELY on his mutalisk control. That isn't going to carry him through a Bo5 against some of the best TvZ we have ever seen. To beat Flash you're going to need to have good defiler control/late game control and Shine just doesn't have that.
Shine may be able to beat Flash in the early game once...or MAYBE twice but that's it. Flash doesn't have a weak early game, especially with his current TvZ style.
There is no reason to quote "horrible" as if it's merely only that way because Shine focuses totally on offense. That's all he knows how to do and it's all he can do. Shine has terrible late game army control... and really terrible army control in general when it hits a certain size.
Shine has lacking ZvT... you can't have decent ZvT anymore these days without proper defiler control.
Well, firstly, I'd challenge this "best TvZ we've ever seen" remark. iloveoov still holds that title. Unless you're talking "absolute skill" rather than "skill relative to his opponents" in which case any modern progamer Terran is better than Oov was simply due to modernization of game play. But up until his first loss to Savior (bo3 played late 2005), Oov had a career 76% wins in that match-up including a record setting 27 consecutive wins, and he looked pretty much damn near unbeatable throughout that entire time (almost 3 years!). And in fact, due to the longevity of their TvZ awesomeness, I'd also place NaDa and Boxer ahead of Flash in the all time best ever TvZ list. But that's more opinion. And a digression from the main point.
Secondly, I'd argue that Shine's mutalisk control (combined with his ruthless aggression) is exactly the advantage he needs. When have we last seen Flash lose in a late game battle? Okay, I think he dropped a late game battle to Effort at the end of last proleague season, but I don't think there is any Zerg out there at the moment that can take Flash in a bo5 playing with a management oriented style. Flash's midgame Terran death ball is just too absurdly large. Even if the Zerg manages to get bases up and running, he won't be able to stop Flash from doing the same (like in Calm vs Flash game 3) and it's next to impossible to break Flash's late game defense.
However, most of Flash's losses are during the early game. Shine has the best early game of any Zerg out there. If he makes the finals, he'll need to milk that for all its worth.
...And Shine's army control is fine. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it isn't. IMO the problem is that his late game armies aren't big enough to fight in prolonged macro battles.
By the way, just to be clear, I'm in no way saying that Shine is a favorite to win vs Flash. Indeed, the last time they met, Shine was easily crushed (however, Shine did some sort of gimmicky 3 hatch before pool build on Destination, which ended in complete fail). But I think of all the Zergs out there, he is one of the most likely to be able to take Flash in a series.
Edit: Fixed sentence ordering. Last paragraph was unclear.
nice post mortality. is it just me or have you been posting extra much lately (past month or so..?) haha. anyway... yeah your comment about flash's weakest patr being early game scares me. i hope his antimuta skills are good enough though (assuming shine beats movie)
TY and yes I've been posting a lot lately. Winter break and all.
On January 07 2010 17:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: "Let's summarize the assessments that he passed.
1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time)."
It's not really the fact that they won MSLs then the OSL.
Yeah but none of that stuff is true of Nada or Oov either except like 1 and 5. That's just the explanation as to why Savior was important enough to define "bonjwa theory" rather than it being thought up earlier to describe Nada or Oov.
A bonjwa doesn't have to be anything other than #4 or #5 in the list Avidkeystamper posted. The key thing about being a bonjwa is that they are truly the undisputed champion. And to be that, you have to be clearly on another level above everyone else and you have to hold that form long enough to prove that your dominance isn't just from a particular metagame shift, but because you really are the best, period.
Those criteria in particular are only to explain why Savior was bonjwa. Coming along at the height of Terran dominance and completely reversing the balance of the match-up, holding the second highest 12 month win percentage in the history of Starcraft (yes, even Flash's current 12 month win percentage is lower), being the only player to successfully qualify for 5 starleague finals in a row, playing so many games against S-class opponents and dismantling them so thoroughly (his performance against S-class opponents is unrivaled in all of SC) -- these accomplishments are what defined Savior as bonjwa.
Oov and NaDa also have criteria that define them.
Oov holds the highest ever 12 month win percentage, 5 Starleague golds and 3 Starleague bronze. He's the only player to appear in a starleague finals three or more times and have 100% conversion to gold. Furthermore, his faster expansion timing completely changed the metagame probably more than any other player.
NaDa is the only gold grand slammer in the history of Starcraft. That means he won OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season. In that sense, he can be said to be the closest player to ever achieving absolute dominance. GhemTV SL no longer exists, but the modern equivalent would be winning OSL, MSL and GOM all in the same season. Nobody else has come close to this accomplishment. Furthermore, he held a win average above 65% for more than 5 calendar years. In fact, after 6 calendar years he had a career 64.4% wins, and after 7 calendar years he had a career 62.4% wins. He has spent more time in the KeSPA top 30 than anybody else by quite a margin. He has appear in a grand total of 10 OSL + MSL finals, converting 6 of them to gold. Nobody else has anywhere near his list of accomplishments and probably nobody ever will.
Boxer also -- even though he didn't have quite as a high a win percentage as the others or quite as long a list of Starleague golds next to his name, he made the medals podium (whether first, second or third) of almost every tournament in 2001, as well as most of them in late 2000 and early 2002. If Boxer wasn't in the top 4 of a tournament, people said he was slumping. At this stage in the world of Starcraft the way to become famous was to beat Boxer.
Actually if Shine makes to the OSL Finals, I would cheer for him 100%, Shine's earlygame relentless aggression and Mutalisk control is top-notch. He can certainly take a game or 2 from Flash is he ONLY focuses on a 10 minutes game. Basically a gamble against Flash but hey its at least 50:50 chance of succeeding (Flash's interview) but hey its better than nothing!
I can honestly say i've never watched any of Shine's games. I think I would enjoy his playstyle though and am going going to watch a load of them soon. I hope he does well though, rising players are MUCH more exciting than established ones.
On January 08 2010 09:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Imagine the nerd rage if Shine beats Flash in the finals. Oh god I really want it to happen just for the fallout.
Best post in the thread, honestly. I think it would be hilarious.
People forget that the OSL cannot be filled with Flashes and Jaedongs and Storks. There is a caliber of player that is, on average, superior to every other caliber of player by a wide margin. These are the guys at the top of their game - and at the top of Starcraft as a whole.
A lot of people complain about guys like Kwanro. But you know what? Kwanro is good enough to get deep into Starleagues. Maybe he's 'awful' or 'terrible' in comparison to Jaedong or Flash, but he is obviously very good, and his non-standard play is pretty exciting if you ask me. People saying that progamers that are deep in Starleagues don't deserve the spot are just imagining that there is some other set of players like Flash and Jaedong out there that would be there instead. These guys deserve every spot they get - try not to forget that.
On January 08 2010 09:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Imagine the nerd rage if Shine beats Flash in the finals. Oh god I really want it to happen just for the fallout.
I don't get what's with all the Shine hate? The guy's a sincerely good kid. He plays so hard. How can you not root for him when he plays for his grandmother (who watches every game of his)?
Granted he didn't play the best, he's still a good guy. No need to hate just because he knocked Bisu, Stork, etc. out.
As for his play, it's really fun to watch. His various styles are fun to watch. Could use a little more work on his mechanics, but his style is really exciting. Various openings as opposed to 5 hatch hydra every game.
EDIT: Not that it'll help much, given the state of this page, but: OSL Semifinal B spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
On January 08 2010 20:47 Roffles wrote: I don't get what's with all the Shine hate? The guy's a sincerely good kid. He plays so hard. How can you not root for him when he plays for his grandmother (who watches every game of his)?
Granted he didn't play the best, he's still a good guy. No need to hate just because he knocked Bisu, Stork, etc. out.
As for his play, it's really fun to watch. His various styles are fun to watch. Could use a little more work on his mechanics, but his style is really exciting. Various openings as opposed to 5 hatch hydra every game.
I agree. How can you not like someone who came out of nowhere and beat Bisu, then Stork?
I mean, what a cool run. He takes out a favorite with an extremely zealous and devoted fanbase. It's called a fluke and all, and then he turns around and beats the Protoss who's even better! He walked the royal road to the semifinals. That alone should earn our respect.
But then he plays some sub-par games and people, not his disappointed fans, but people who dislike him for his dramatic OSL run, just go nuts. It's kinda sad.
On January 08 2010 20:47 Roffles wrote: I don't get what's with all the Shine hate? The guy's a sincerely good kid. He plays so hard. How can you not root for him when he plays for his grandmother (who watches every game of his)?
Granted he didn't play the best, he's still a good guy. No need to hate just because he knocked Bisu, Stork, etc. out.
As for his play, it's really fun to watch. His various styles are fun to watch. Could use a little more work on his mechanics, but his style is really exciting. Various openings as opposed to 5 hatch hydra every game.
LOL WHAT? he has 1 style, all-out aggression he has 2 outlets, mass mutas, and mass hydras. The reason I, and i'll go out on a limb and say most others, hate the kid is he's fucking predictable in that he does the same shit over and over and over again. He abuses one facet of the game that allows him to win with as little actual skill as possible. He lost 2 drones to a probe ten minutes into the game. He lost 2 drones, TO A PROBE THAT SNUCK INTO HIS MAIN. The kid embodies a fluke that has no multi-task or management ability.
his play was horrible in all 4 games tonight, even the game he won he had it in the first 8 minutes then almost somehow lost it again... you point out the fact that he went 5 hatch hydra in games 2-4, but in game 2 he failed to win after scourging movie's first speed shuttle, which is super crucial, then almost managed to lose game 3 despite a huge advantage, then getting utterly destroyed in game 4... These games didnt look like osl semi-finals, they looked like some S-class playing a random no namer in pro-league, I dont understand how a couple of all-in wins against good players make so many people think this guy is going to be huge in the future, lots of people have gotten to osl quarters/semis then faded out of existance, i doubt he'll be any different -.-
his play was horrible in all 4 games tonight, even the game he won he had it in the first 8 minutes then almost somehow lost it again... you point out the fact that he went 5 hatch hydra in games 2-4, but in game 2 he failed to win after scourging movie's first speed shuttle, which is super crucial, then almost managed to lose game 3 despite a huge advantage, then getting utterly destroyed in game 4... These games didnt look like osl semi-finals, they looked like some S-class playing a random no namer in pro-league, I dont understand how a couple of all-in wins against good players make so many people think this guy is going to be huge in the future, lots of people have gotten to osl quarters/semis then faded out of existance, i doubt he'll be any different -.-
yeah u are so right.. thats why i dont like him at all!
I've actually started to warm up to Shine a little bit, mostly because i feel sorry for the kid - he really doesn't deserve the hate of so many people just because he knocked out some of our favorite players. That is his job after all, to go try to win any way he can. I don't particularly like his playstyle, but he seems like a good person. I was rooting for Movie tonight, but I wasn't doing it because I hate Shine, it was because I like Movie.
his play was horrible in all 4 games tonight, even the game he won he had it in the first 8 minutes then almost somehow lost it again... you point out the fact that he went 5 hatch hydra in games 2-4, but in game 2 he failed to win after scourging movie's first speed shuttle, which is super crucial, then almost managed to lose game 3 despite a huge advantage, then getting utterly destroyed in game 4... These games didnt look like osl semi-finals, they looked like some S-class playing a random no namer in pro-league, I dont understand how a couple of all-in wins against good players make so many people think this guy is going to be huge in the future, lots of people have gotten to osl quarters/semis then faded out of existance, i doubt he'll be any different -.-
totally agreed.
well maybe except for the fade away part. If he sticks with it, going all in everygame is so retardedly effective for zvp. A trained monkey could do it and and still win games
May Shine fade into obscurity, or acquire dazzling late-game play.
here, here
Although I love Movie, I don't hate Shine. He's a young SC player who's just realizing what life is all about so the hate on him is a bit exaggerated.
He needs to work on his gameplay though. All I've seen from him vs. Stork and Movie is crazy aggressive builds. I can't imagine him in a late game ZvT. Flash for example would devourer him. He would consume him like a defiler consumes a zergling.
If he works on his game, there is no reason he can't be the next best zerg. What I've seen so far can be summed up in one word - lazy. Because being good at SC is hard.
So work hard young cerebrate - and best wishes in the future.
his play was horrible in all 4 games tonight, even the game he won he had it in the first 8 minutes then almost somehow lost it again... you point out the fact that he went 5 hatch hydra in games 2-4, but in game 2 he failed to win after scourging movie's first speed shuttle, which is super crucial, then almost managed to lose game 3 despite a huge advantage, then getting utterly destroyed in game 4... These games didnt look like osl semi-finals, they looked like some S-class playing a random no namer in pro-league, I dont understand how a couple of all-in wins against good players make so many people think this guy is going to be huge in the future, lots of people have gotten to osl quarters/semis then faded out of existance, i doubt he'll be any different -.-
yeah u are so right.. thats why i dont like him at all!
I am starting to like you less and less, every day Nigol. Not liking Shine is a crime!
his play was horrible in all 4 games tonight, even the game he won he had it in the first 8 minutes then almost somehow lost it again... you point out the fact that he went 5 hatch hydra in games 2-4, but in game 2 he failed to win after scourging movie's first speed shuttle, which is super crucial, then almost managed to lose game 3 despite a huge advantage, then getting utterly destroyed in game 4... These games didnt look like osl semi-finals, they looked like some S-class playing a random no namer in pro-league, I dont understand how a couple of all-in wins against good players make so many people think this guy is going to be huge in the future, lots of people have gotten to osl quarters/semis then faded out of existance, i doubt he'll be any different -.-
yeah u are so right.. thats why i dont like him at all!
I am starting to like you less and less, every day Nigol. Not liking Shine is a crime!
NiGoL, you and Ftrunkz will not see the sun Shine brightly upon you for this blasphemy.
On January 08 2010 20:47 Roffles wrote: I don't get what's with all the Shine hate? The guy's a sincerely good kid. He plays so hard. How can you not root for him when he plays for his grandmother (who watches every game of his)?
Granted he didn't play the best, he's still a good guy. No need to hate just because he knocked Bisu, Stork, etc. out.
As for his play, it's really fun to watch. His various styles are fun to watch. Could use a little more work on his mechanics, but his style is really exciting. Various openings as opposed to 5 hatch hydra every game.
Because he's really not that good.
HE doesn't have various styles, he has ONE style. All out aggression. Aggression is nice to watch sometimes but it's also fun to watch a long macro game... where Shine fails. Kwanro learned how to macro and look where that got him.
I dont have much to say about Shine, but I was looking through the old Power Rankings and found this on Flash.
08/01/2007
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management."
Just wanted to post this somewhere haha. 2 years ago but funny to see anything negative about Flash, especially concerning his management. Slightly fits in with Shine because of hype talk.
On January 09 2010 08:57 0mgVitaminE wrote: I dont have much to say about Shine, but I was looking through the old Power Rankings and found this on Flash.
08/01/2007
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management."
Just wanted to post this somewhere haha. 2 years ago but funny to see anything negative about Flash, especially concerning his management. Slightly fits in with Shine because of hype talk.
It doesnt really fit in. Flash might not have been a beast in mid to late game management, but at least he could manage. Shine has ridiculously bad defiler control and lategame management, for example LOSING 2 DRONES TO A PROBE THAT HE LET SNEAK INTO HIS BASE. 10 MINUTES INTO THE GAME.
On January 09 2010 09:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i left this thread alone so you guys could have your fun, but it's time for everyone to realize that shine[kal] is not very good at all
he has superb mutalisk micro and terrible everything else
the fact that he reached the OSL semifinal is tragic
Shine robbed us of a possible Stork vs Flash Finals rematch :[
What I don't understand is how some people don't understand why Shine gets a lot of hate. If a guy comes out of nowhere and beats Bisu and Stork, you as a fan are not going to fucking cheer for him right off the bat, especially when it's very likely that he's just a fluke zerg, as shown yesterday.
On January 09 2010 09:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i left this thread alone so you guys could have your fun, but it's time for everyone to realize that shine[kal] is not very good at all
he has superb mutalisk micro and terrible everything else
the fact that he reached the OSL semifinal is tragic
you forgot observer sniping and storm dodging!
but yeah, seriously, doubt he'll even make the ro8 of a starleague ever again
saw shine play movie and jangbi just now... very very mediocure showing for someone who suppose to be be really good at ZvP...
i mean his game revolves around lair play + counter / drops... average storm dodging, macro is nothing to brag about. i think he kinda got lucky that he got this far.
After watching him v Movie and now versus Jangbi, his micro can definitely be summarized as terrible. He sits in storms, has random unit groups suiciding into cannons, etc. Bisu and Stork must be so incredibly pissed that they lost to THAT.
On January 09 2010 09:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i left this thread alone so you guys could have your fun, but it's time for everyone to realize that shine[kal] is not very good at all
he has superb mutalisk micro and terrible everything else
the fact that he reached the OSL semifinal is tragic
100% agree. Look at Shine v.s. Stork. How did Stork lose? Inadequate defense against Muta. I recognize only two points that make Shine shine: 1. Superb Muta micro, he can dance around 3 archons and kill them. 2. Good decision making skill. He can make good decisions and be flexible. His all-ins are not suicidal and he can accurately predict his opponent's movement and make smart decisions accordingly.
That's about it. The player has NO late game ability. His micro is mediocre, save for his muta. ALL he does is early game hyper aggression and regular all-ins. Once those tactics fail. He is dead. Hell, he even fails hydra all in. The only reason why he made this far is because of his Muta. Shine is a rookie. His style wasn't well known or established yet. The players that he faced were surprised and ill-prepared and lost to early game aggression.
Do you guys even know why he made this far? I read from somewhere that Bisu DID NOT practice all that much against Shine. While you can take that as a grain of salt, let's look at his OSL group. He emerged 2-1, one win from ZvZ, since he is great with muta after all and it is ZvZ. One win from defeating Fantasy, because Fantasy executed ONE OF THE MOST FAIL STRATEGIES EVER. Then he defeated Stork, with what?
MUTALISKS. TWICE! Seriously, go watch Stork v.s. Shine. Shine just walked over Stork in game 1 and 3 with just muta and nothing else. In game 2, Stork dragged Shine to late game and Shine got rolled.
Players will now know what Shine's winning strategy is consisted of. It's just like Fantasy's vultures. It will lose its effectiveness eventually.
The only saving grace about Shine is his grandma. I think she should be satisfied that her grandson made it to top 4 of the most prestigious tournament in E-sports. If it wasn't for her, I'd declare myself a 100% anti-Shine fan.
Movie, on the other hand, deserve credit. He WTF'ed me when he defeated Jaedong in Avalon MSL, and then took Fantasy, who was at his peak and the best TvP at the time, to an epic late game show down in which almost all the minerals on the map were mined out and Fantasy was inches away from losing.
That was when Movie debuted. I had no clue who the hell Movie was, but he defeated Jaedong and took Fantasy to his absolute limit. And this is Movie, a Protoss, at an OSL final. He is walking the same road that Bisu and Anytime walked. A Protoss no-name rookie royal roading a Starleague, against all odds, and pinned against the greatest monster of their era in the final.
And Movie will show us a good series, on Jan. 17th.
Edit: Minor correction. Movie defeated Jaedong in Avalon MSL, not the OSL. :p
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/interview/1261744549_1.jpg)
