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But Cheese doesn't have to be all-in, all-in is different. 5pool is cheese, but its still not all-in. well sort of..
WTF?! Is this sarcasm? 5pool "not all-in"? The only thing you could do more all-in is 4pool. If it's sarcasm w/e.
8 rax=/=cheese, it's just an aggressive opening, same as going 9pool.
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On December 26 2009 00:44 InDaHouse wrote:
Shine remember this interview because this will be your last OSL interview.
LOL, i like your attitude 
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Calm, you BETTER win against Flash by preparing some Early to Late mind games. And Movie, oh man kick the sh!t out of Shine, REMEMBER, build a DA to maelstrom the Mutalisk on El Nino! Calm vs Movie Finals in 3!
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Flash OSL champion looks pretty inevitable at this point, and with that a bad OSL Final. Goddamn, Shine is so good against protoss.
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On December 26 2009 00:23 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 00:05 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:30 mmgoose wrote:On December 25 2009 21:28 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:24 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Hillarious. He says he would have had a chanse to win. You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. So it's not cheese, right? (Oystein had a guide written on it iirc) These rabid flashfans are so ridiculous, stating he did not cheese. Yeah Flash cheesed Jaedong. It was brilliant and he advanced. He also absolutely destroyed him straight up in game 1. I can't believe JD fans are still talking. Did you read that i said Flash does not deserve to advance? No. I say he cheesed, which is clear as the Sun, and i dont like ppl who say the white wall is black. He cheesed, he won, he's also currently the better player - are we done here? i think jaedong fans have a right to vent their frustration however ridiculous the delusional arguments may be, dont really now what are you talking about, but whatever, i'm talking about cheese, find a better place for your anti-jd fanatism. For some ppl apparently beside BBS in the middle of the map and pullin 3/4 of the scvs nothing is cheese in TvZ, i got nothing to say to them. On December 25 2009 21:40 Scaramanga wrote:On December 25 2009 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:24 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Hillarious. He says he would have had a chanse to win. You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. So it's not cheese, right? (Oystein had a guide written on it iirc) These rabid flashfans are so ridiculous, stating he did not cheese. Yeah Flash cheesed Jaedong. It was brilliant and he advanced. He also absolutely destroyed him straight up in game 1. I can't believe JD fans are still talking. Did you read that i said Flash does not deserve to advance? No. I say he cheesed, which is clear as the Sun, and i dont like ppl who say the white wall is black. A white wall can be black if there is no light ^^ had to be said i guess... On December 25 2009 21:49 writer22816 wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. No, you wouldn't. I could only recommend Oystein's thread, apparently the search function is broken (is it just me?) but he explains the build, and even gives a rep where he deals the least ammonut of dmg with the 6pool and still trasitions into normal play nicely. It's cheese, just as proxy 7 or 8rax, or athor porxies. So you just want to discuss what is cheese and what is not, and none of this has anything to do with you just being a butthurt fanboy? Cool. I can almost taste your tears from here.
pathetic answer, i guess you resgistered on TL to post it.
A guy says Flash did not cheese, what he obviously did, i try to explain to him, than come the JD haters and talk about how i cry. Sg is going wrong. My favorite player is JD, yes, but i kinda knew he'd loose this one, Flash's TvZ is on fire really, and even if i didnt know, i do not care about excuses, he lost, he lost, it did not piss me off. Retarded people do.
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Thanks for the translation  Flash for OSL!!!
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You all people arguing about cheese are stupid.
THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF CHEESE!
For some people cheese is something like "imma do it and hope to get lucky" - 4/5/6 pool on 4 players map, 8 rax on 4 players map, 14 cc on 4 players map, etc. For other people cheese is an all-in, and for others cheese is everything that is not straight-up macro game (like 1 rax exp, 3h muta, etc. Even though there is also actually no definition of straight-up macro game lool)
Cheese is only your personal feelings about strategy. Cheese is nicer saying of "this is such a gay strat"
Also anyone trying to prove "player XXX is stupid cause he is cheesing" is wrong, cause it is cheese for you but can be "not cheese" for someone other. You just don't like his playstyle, that's it
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boxer pulling scvs to bunker rush is where the term cheese came from in the first place. without scvs it would not have been a cheese rush, as jaedong would have been able to block it.
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To be honest, the FvJ game was pretty underwhelming.
Was hoping to see more than just a bunker rush. But it was pretty much over after the overlord died.
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On December 26 2009 02:04 dasanivan wrote:
boxer pulling scvs to bunker rush is where the term cheese came from in the first place. without scvs it would not have been a cheese rush, as jaedong would have been able to block it.
Yea seriously, that's the original cheese. When did people get so picky? A proxy 8 rax with marine pulled to bunker rush is cheese. It's not all-in but cheese doesn't have to be. Cheese does differ from one game to another but this build is always cheese, just like 4/5 pool. No one ever 6/7/8 pools so that's irrelevant.
Congrats to Flash, I feel that Calm presents a unique challenge, but he should cruise because of his excellent decision making.
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On December 26 2009 02:06 Radiomouse wrote:
To be honest, the FvJ game was pretty underwhelming.
Was hoping to see more than just a bunker rush. But it was pretty much over after the overlord died.
Pretty much Jaedong had a huge schedule at game 1 (I can see the tireness in his eyes), Flash basically beat him straight up but Jaedong did make a mistake of counter-attacking with all his Mutalisk and lost nearly all of them, then Flash's Medics n Marines just steamrolled JD. Game 2, even if Jaedong defended against Flash's attack by going 9Pool, there is still game 3. Was the most hyped game of the year and yet it didn't deliver.
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Yeah, 8rax is much more akin to 9pool. Flash only pulled SCVs when he saw a 12 hatch.
If that's your definition of cheese, whatever, but it was an awesome strategy. I thought it was more fun than another stomping from Flash like in game 1—though that's pretty fun too.
Edit: Also, if you watched closely, JD only GGed after he saw Flash's base. He realized Flash didn't cut that much SCV production. That is hardly an all-in.
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On December 26 2009 02:14 SimonB wrote:Yeah, 8rax is much more akin to 9pool. Flash only pulled SCVs when he saw a 12 hatch. If that's your definition of cheese, whatever, but it was an awesome strategy. I thought it was more fun than another stomping from Flash like in game 1—though that's pretty fun too.
I am more mad about Jaedong's decision when he saw the Marines poped out so quickly, he still went 12 Hatch. If he went something like 12 Pool, he could've comfortably defended that. And even if he decided to stick to 12 Hatch, his Micro back then wasn't exactly the best. Plus the Sunken placement was pretty bad (at the Bunker's range). He pulled out WAY too many drones. I think Flash prepared the game so much and Jaedong was caught of guard.
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On December 26 2009 02:19 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:14 SimonB wrote:Yeah, 8rax is much more akin to 9pool. Flash only pulled SCVs when he saw a 12 hatch. If that's your definition of cheese, whatever, but it was an awesome strategy. I thought it was more fun than another stomping from Flash like in game 1—though that's pretty fun too. I am more mad about Jaedong's decision when he saw the Marines poped out so quickly, he still went 12 Hatch. If he went something like 12 Pool, he could've comfortably defended that. And even if he decided to stick to 12 Hatch, his Micro back then wasn't exactly the best. Plus the Sunken placement was pretty bad (at the Bunker's range). He pulled out WAY too many drones. I think Flash prepared the game so much and Jaedong was caught of guard.
He already placed the hatch dude.
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seeing jaedong lose is awesome, so awesome
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On December 26 2009 02:19 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:14 SimonB wrote:Yeah, 8rax is much more akin to 9pool. Flash only pulled SCVs when he saw a 12 hatch. If that's your definition of cheese, whatever, but it was an awesome strategy. I thought it was more fun than another stomping from Flash like in game 1—though that's pretty fun too. I am more mad about Jaedong's decision when he saw the Marines poped out so quickly, he still went 12 Hatch. If he went something like 12 Pool, he could've comfortably defended that. And even if he decided to stick to 12 Hatch, his Micro back then wasn't exactly the best. Plus the Sunken placement was pretty bad (at the Bunker's range). He pulled out WAY too many drones. I think Flash prepared the game so much and Jaedong was caught of guard.
LOL... if Terran could get 2 marines out with an 8rax before Z even put down a 12hatch, bunker rushes would be even gayer than they are now. By the time JD saw the marine his pool was probably almost down if not down already.
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On December 25 2009 21:32 DragoonPK wrote:
If Flash left JD to play standard, I am 100% confident that JD would win the next 2 games. Give someone like Jaedong a bit of momentum and he will turn the tables around in a flash(get it lol!).
Stuff like this is what makes it hard to take JD fans seriously. Cause you know, JD has looked completely unbeatable in standard ZvT lately and crushed Flash in standard play last week ... oh wait it's the other way around.
Thanks for the translations!
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On December 25 2009 21:24 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Hillarious. He says he would have had a chanse to win. You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. So it's not cheese, right? (Oystein had a guide written on it iirc) These rabid flashfans are so ridiculous, stating he did not cheese. Yeah Flash cheesed Jaedong. It was brilliant and he advanced. He also absolutely destroyed him straight up in game 1. I can't believe JD fans are still talking.
Ah I knew Flash would cheese Jaedong. I knew he wouldn't have the balls to play him in a straight up game he knew he would lose this time. Gotta cheese someone who's superior to you ^^.
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On December 26 2009 01:39 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 00:23 11cc wrote:On December 26 2009 00:05 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:30 mmgoose wrote:On December 25 2009 21:28 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:24 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Hillarious. He says he would have had a chanse to win. You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. So it's not cheese, right? (Oystein had a guide written on it iirc) These rabid flashfans are so ridiculous, stating he did not cheese. Yeah Flash cheesed Jaedong. It was brilliant and he advanced. He also absolutely destroyed him straight up in game 1. I can't believe JD fans are still talking. Did you read that i said Flash does not deserve to advance? No. I say he cheesed, which is clear as the Sun, and i dont like ppl who say the white wall is black. He cheesed, he won, he's also currently the better player - are we done here? i think jaedong fans have a right to vent their frustration however ridiculous the delusional arguments may be, dont really now what are you talking about, but whatever, i'm talking about cheese, find a better place for your anti-jd fanatism. For some ppl apparently beside BBS in the middle of the map and pullin 3/4 of the scvs nothing is cheese in TvZ, i got nothing to say to them. On December 25 2009 21:40 Scaramanga wrote:On December 25 2009 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:24 darktreb wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Hillarious. He says he would have had a chanse to win. You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. So it's not cheese, right? (Oystein had a guide written on it iirc) These rabid flashfans are so ridiculous, stating he did not cheese. Yeah Flash cheesed Jaedong. It was brilliant and he advanced. He also absolutely destroyed him straight up in game 1. I can't believe JD fans are still talking. Did you read that i said Flash does not deserve to advance? No. I say he cheesed, which is clear as the Sun, and i dont like ppl who say the white wall is black. A white wall can be black if there is no light ^^ had to be said i guess... On December 25 2009 21:49 writer22816 wrote:On December 25 2009 21:23 Geo.Rion wrote:
You have decent chanse to win even if you fail with 6 pool. No, you wouldn't. I could only recommend Oystein's thread, apparently the search function is broken (is it just me?) but he explains the build, and even gives a rep where he deals the least ammonut of dmg with the 6pool and still trasitions into normal play nicely. It's cheese, just as proxy 7 or 8rax, or athor porxies. So you just want to discuss what is cheese and what is not, and none of this has anything to do with you just being a butthurt fanboy? Cool. I can almost taste your tears from here. pathetic answer, i guess you resgistered on TL to post it. A guy says Flash did not cheese, what he obviously did, i try to explain to him, than come the JD haters and talk about how i cry. Sg is going wrong. My favorite player is JD, yes, but i kinda knew he'd loose this one, Flash's TvZ is on fire really, and even if i didnt know, i do not care about excuses, he lost, he lost, it did not piss me off. Retarded people do.
wow... chill -_-;;
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On December 25 2009 21:26 DragoonPK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:23 lazz wrote:On December 25 2009 21:21 DragoonPK wrote:On December 25 2009 21:19 lazz wrote:-Was the bunker rush an improvised strategy?
▲No, it was a strategy that required considerable timing and preparation. That's why I prepared it very careful. I knew that it would work, so I pushed out confidently and I think that it turned out very well.
-Would it have been dangerous for you if your opponent didn't go 12hatch?
▲Even if he didn't go 12hatch, it would have been a usable strategy. Despite the early marine production, I knew where to scout to capture the overlords thanks to my preparation. Even if he decided to choose a different strategy, I still would have had a chance to win. people calling 8 rax cheese need to read this and have a deep long think about what they're saying Its cheese, but its perfected cheese. Thats why it worked. It's not cheese though, because it's not all-in. He knew it would work. it had a definite pay off. that's not cheese. But Cheese doesn't have to be all-in, all-in is different. 5pool is cheese, but its still not all-in. well sort of..
Cheese is when you take risks. It's called high risk / high reward. Since Flash would have been in a good position whatever build Jaedong opened with it is not a cheese.
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EPT
