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and where its heading,
Seeing these x-korean leaves x- team in search of a foreign team announcements are starting to become customary these days, i feel like as a foreign player alot of our interests aren't being heard because typically foreign progamers don't voice their issues as much as they should, we just keep the talk between ourselves which doesn't accomplish anything and tbh i feel like sooner or later were going to need an organisation that can represent our interests just so we can legitimize the industry because as it is alot of us are getting fed the shit-end of the stick
now to get to the main issue, I'm all for the globalization of esports and as an sc1 player ive always looked up to the korean players and dreamt of being able to play competitively in korea someday but ill be honest.. ive always wondered why foreign players were never offered the same type of treatment in sc1 that the koreans are currently being offered in sc2, good on them if all the teams and the fans are welcoming them with open arms but afaik when ret tried to become a progamer they chased him out of korea and never gave him an opportunity to do so, they excluded us from everything because we were of no use to them
now to be fair i don't know if the reason why we were ostracized so much from their scene had something to do with kespa, the teams/players or if it had to do with something else but in any case thats not what im here to talk about, what i wanted to voice were a few issues from the players perspesctive
I know as fans u probably wont care much about this because u just want to see high class players representing ur favourite teams(regardless of where they come from) but this is an extremely sensitive issue to the players. Any potential $$ that is going to a korean player is potential money that isn't going to our players, a HUGE portion of the players are being underpaid, the amount of money vs the amount of time we have to put into the game in order to stay competitive is let's say..... very shitty? On top of that we can't get the same type of training that the koreans are getting because our infrastructure fucking blows, now all of a sudden the korean players are saying to themselves "hmmm, not only can we rape all their tournaments but we can probably take over all their teams aswell", whats going to happen to us 5-10 years down the line?
For alot of foreign players its extremely hard to drop everything in our lives just so that we can move to korea in order to keep up with them practice-wise. Why cant we have the same type of training that they have without having to sacrifice a huge portion of our lives? The only foreigner players who wont fall behind the koreans skill wise are the ones who will be willing to sacrifice a huge part of their lives so they can practice over there and alot of those players are either a) young or b) are already financially set, that type of sacrifice wont impact them as much as say a top european or north american foreign player whos in his early-midd twenties and isnt getting paid/isnt willing to sacrifice his life as much as those players which makes that type of sacrifice an extremely high risk thing to do
if things dont change then 3 years from now the high level european/na players are going to live off of their team salarys/stream while playing the occasional online tournament and the skillgap between them and the koreans is going to grow so much that they'll end up being a non factor in tournaments, that being said ull still have the odd 4-5 well paid foreigners practicing in korea who are going to give them a run for their money at each tournament(however theyll fail 95% of the time simply because theyre outnumbered), if ur satisfied with that then im happy for u but unfortunately alot of talented players will never achieve their true potential and we'll never get to know what type of player they would have turned into which to me would be the greatest tragedy in esports
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every man for himself. im attracted to talent thtats why i enjoy to watch koreans play because they are more skilled. i dont have that many symphaties for average foreigners, because they are pretty bad. i mb would cheer for some if they had any personality but most of them are just socially akward. Most progamers became progamers because they are lazy and suck at society. i think what makes korean champs is 80 % the right attitude and discpline etc. Most of the pros dont realise that its their job, i can guarantue you that not in any single job in the world , there will be this phenomen where you call out the more skilled and cry about how they make more money. Progamers need to grow up..
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well get organized and get your shit together foreigners. the koreans put more work in so they recieve more pay and thats a good thing. how many foreigners are so dedicated to life in a team house were you bunk with 10 people and train the whole day? and they sacrifie huge part of their private lifes by living is these conditions....
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teams are gonna sign players that they think are the best and not according to their nationality
i don't really see a problem, koreans do sacrifice their lives as well, living in team houses, the only upside for them is that they don't have to leave the country, so far in sc2 korea has welcomed foreigners and allow them to live in their practice houses. if foreigners don't practice as hard as koreans it's not fault of koreans.
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Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
My job takes up a lot of my life too, that's the point of a job.
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It's your fucking job to be a pro-gamer and you are bitching that you need to drop a big portion or your life in order to compete... clearly you aren't driven enough then bro. Look at HuK, maybe you can learn something about dedication.
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so what u want to say is: give NA/EU players more money despite they play worse than koreans. rofl.
Like a korean progamer doesnt "sacrifice" his life.. ,your argumentation is just silly.
Korea is the mekka of esports, Tasteless says is EVERY day. Didnt u listen?
when u wanna be good at table tennis, u need to go to china, when u wanna be good in ski-junping, u need to come to EU. As simple as that. Awkward, how ppl become racist when they see their money in danger.
User was warned for this post
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After reading this and the "golden and dragon leave slayers"-thread, I wonder if esports will actually ever become big.
- Very few players make a good amount of money. The reason why salaries are not public, is because they are low.
- The interest in gaming is not as high as we might think.
- Organisations like NASL, MLG and GOMtv seem to have a very hard time.
- Starcraft 2 is not that popular in Korea.
Basicly we see players playing 10 hours a day for.... almost nothing?
Do you guys think that players will make a good amount of money from esports in the future? Do you think things will change? Because I can't imagine it atm.
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The infrastructure won't magically appear in EU/NA, to do so we need to "hire" proffesionals overseas for now. Its also a cultural problem, i wouldnt call going full pro as droping everything in your life, its really comparable to having a full time job / having an sports career, when people start treating it like that outside of korea and infrastructure will appear there will be no need to go to Korea, but Alas we are years behind Korea in that regard and i doubt we will ever catch up with todays mentality, but SC2 so far helps in this regard, as the skill gap is not as evident as it was in bw.
The problem with infrastructure, hmm, we lack professionals on our side, there are no coaches who could coach players like they do in bw teams, there is no governing body, Kespa despite all the bad reputation it has pushed SC business beyond "hobby", or how its called in our culture "stupid hobby" boundry. Kespa seems aggresive for us, but in fact they are dealing with higher caliber competition, you cant have lack of professionalism when you appear on TV or talk to major Korean brand sponors (Banks, manufacturers, ship building companies).
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On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote:
Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job?
if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
i actually touched on this point in my initial post.. the only way to stay competitive would be to move to korea but there are certain contrainsts that make that sort of a commitment too much of a high risk thing to do
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koreans could be complaining that they suck in skiing compared to austria
in your and my example its just a better infrastructure and better training that leads to better "athletes"
thats just the way it is
i always root for foreigners cause i dont want the koreans to dominate. but its noones fault that the koreans dominate. they are just training more and better.
but atleast they suck at skiing right?
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I hope I understand you right, you're right now blaming teams / tournaments for signing / inviting koreans?
And your point is that instead of growing / establishing a good infrastructure for foreigners with the currently available money, they take the easy way and "outsource" to Koreans because they're already set-up and are further developed, thus more successful, so you're scared for the long-term development of the foreign scene if we don't take the chance we've now?
If so, yes i agree, the trend is scary.
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tbh
are you competitive in Korea?
PS:Better players always have higher income
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Isn't tournaments going for regionalization like MLG during 2012 and dreamhack? That might help the foreginers.
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On January 16 2012 19:59 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote:
Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job? if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
Yea man,but like,we can't fix that for you guys.
We as fans can only watch and support the players we like,but we can't set up a infrastructure for you.
So I don't really see where you are going with this thread,we all know this and we can't help you.
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I think pro's need to realise that this is an entertainment industry. Life isn't fair. I'm sure you are correct that the infrastructure in Korea allows better practice conditions, but thats just the way of it. Compensating foreign players for this 'injustice' won't fix the problem. Maintaining a foreign only competition is surely possible, but only if thats what appeals to the fans.
edit2: I don't mean to be so brutally insensitive. I get that your dream is to compete with the best, and you feel shortchanged that their is some perceived or real uneveness in the playing field. That sucks, but its life. Maybe when you work extra hard to get to the top tier then your success will be all the more satisfying given the hurdles. But blaming the teams for not taking some paternal steps to artificially smooth out the uneven playing field is unjustified.
edit:
The above point only refers to the Korean server compared to NA/EU. It doesn't apply to teamhouses imo. You're an adult right? You pay rent? You're friends with other progamers who also pay rent? Why don't you all pay rent in the same house and have your computers in the lounge. Whats the trouble?
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Canada731 Posts
I just want to say, the amount of dedication and professionalism from the majority of Korean players trumps that of the majority of Western players. Not to mention, from a marketing standpoint, Korean professional gamers offer a lot more in terms of Starcraft because of the stigma in all our heads that Koreans are the gosu's and Westerners are the chobo's.
When I go to a major tournament, who do I see practising every moment between games? Korean players. Are there some foreigners who also do this? Sure, of course, Strelok for one does this as well. What do I see when the tournament is done for the day? For the majority of Western players (oddly enough the ones not doing well) they go out drinking and partying. Meanwhile, the Westerners who are doing well (IdrA, HuK, etc.) are in their rooms early, sleeping. As are the Koreans - or if you are a SlayerS member like MMA and BoxeR, you stay up to 2am practising some more.
Additionally, Korean professional gamers give up a lot as well, just as much as IdrA and HuK in some cases. IdrA and HuK gave up their family and friends to move abroad to follow their dreams of becoming professional gamers - is that not what viOlet and Artist are doing (or like Rain did?)? They gave up their families and friends to move to the USA in order to pursue their career as pro-gamers.
Not to mention the time the Koreans (and now people like IdrA and HuK) put in at those pro-gaming houses, is massive compared to the time the vast majority of Westerners put into the game.
I will agree that there needs to be a governing body with the PLAYERS best interests at heart, but segregating it based on ethnicity would just defeat the purpose.
I feel that if players, from any part of the world, wish to become a professional gamer and have this as their #1 source of income and livelihood, should learn that this industry, despite its recent boom, is still incredibly small. And only a select few are going to make money at this and be able to sustain themselves. If you want to be one of those lucky few - you are going to have to learn how to make those sacrifices, and become smarter not only as a player and become better, but also as an individual and learn how to market yourself so you are more valuable to a team.
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koreans are joining foreign teams more and more, it means they're willing to practice with foreigners, it's a good thing, just get the infrastructures up and running in the western community and u're set, u've got the players willing to come over
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On January 16 2012 19:59 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:54 Seraphone wrote:
Koreans work harder, play better therefore deserve more money. Why should you be paid less for doing a worse job? if i practice 8 hours a day on na and a korean practices 8 hours a day in a team house + on the korea ladder, whos gonna benifit more from their training? the answer is pretty obvious, both players put in the same amount of time but one is gonna benifit MUCH more than the other, the problem lies within the western esports scene as a whole and not with the player
So if a bunch of foreigners got organised and moved into a 10 man team house somewhere in North America with a good internet connection to Korea you get something approaching what Koreans have.
Everyone has to make sacrifices for their career. I ate microwave noodles for three years and lived in shitholes when I was in University.
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