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[HotS] The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Blogs > Plexa
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 08:05:18
September 06 2012 03:34 GMT
#1

The Good

Mothership Core

Practically the only good unit for protoss in HotS. So far I can only see use for two abilities - recall and purifier. Both have obvious uses, recall allows for aggression early game (and hence why I'm playing exclusively 3 gate zealot/sentry pressure expand in PvZ atm) while purifier allows you to defend situations which would otherwise be impossible. I haven't worked out when is the optimal time to build the mothership core, but it isn't as essential as the HotS preview videos made out.

[image loading]

Hi, I'm a Mothership Core and I'll be hanging around your base and stuff

I don't like how the mothership core moves at a snails pace. It doesn't make much sense for it to be this way. The mothership core is designed to be a unit which stays at home and gives you flexibility in defense/attack. Moving slowly doesn't really help that cause because it means it take a really long time to get between expos - making the mothership core stationary above a nexus and teleporting between nexii makes a lot more sense and gives the core a lot more utility.

Energize is just a gimmick ability. There isn't any real utility for it. Chrage a nexus? Since when has chronoboost been game breaking? Charge a sentry? lol who cares. Charge a templar? Maybe in a pinch. Charge an oracle? Good in theory (more on this). Really, the only thing you want to energize is a mothership itself, but that's impossible for obvious reasons.

All in all a nifty little unit, and a definite positive addition to the game.

Swarm Host

Kind of expected, but the swarm host has been an all around success for Blizzard. Okay, so the unit isn't exactly balanced at the moment. But it's creating all the right feeling within the game. You see the swarm hosts burrow in the distance and moments later swarms of locusts come charging at you. You know you need to get around them and attack the swarm hosts but how do you do it? The positional tension the unit creates is great. Its a unit that I absolutely hate coming up against in the early game, but I hate it for all the right reasons (unlike the warhound, more on that later).

[image loading]

The swarm host rush in action, it's surprisingly hard to stop

Would a lurker be better? Yes, it would. The reason for that isn't that I'm a BW elitist, rather that the swarm host loses its utility in longer games. While I can't speak for ZvT, in ZvP once the Colossus count gets sufficiently high there is nothing that 123123123 swarm hosts can do because locusts just get vaporized in an instant. Then since the hosts are still on cool down, its just a matter of time before they are killed off. Lurkers have prolonged utility because they don't rely on a weak proxy to do damage, their spines aren't going anywhere until the lurker is killed whereas if the locusts die then the host is just waiting to die. Moreover, lurkers fulfill a defensive role significantly better than swarm hosts, which a more of an aggressive unit.

Perhaps this is a good thing, swarm hosts will have great utility in the early/mid game before the Zerg transitions out into hive tech. In any case, swarm hosts aren't lurkers, but they are a good approximation to the kind of tension they create. Definitely a unit to make the game more interesting.

Worker counts on town halls

Yes, this is a good thing. It's a utility which doesn't hinder strategy and rather creates indicators for players of all skill levels to use. Moreover, no more will you have 9 workers on gas because of a messed up rally. Yes this means that top level players won't have to box workers to count how many are at each base - but is that really a bad thing? Boxing workers is inaccurate and doesn't really add anything to strategy.

And don't worry, there are still things to do like this to get an edge at the top level. Like checking mineral counts to guess how long an opponent expansion has been up.


The Netrual

The Viper

I can't quite make up my mind about this unit. I haven't seen it in action enough yet. The abduct ability caused my very first "oh wow" moment of HotS - depicted below. However its other abilities (consume/blinding cloud) seems kinda dumb or at the very least, only useful in ZvT. Consume can only consume buildings and gives energy over time, which seems kind weird to me as well (eating a unit and instant energy would be much better).

[image loading]

Vipers in their prime; stealin dem colossi

The move depicted above is the viper abducting colossus before I can recall them with my mothership. But as the replay illustrates, abducting a Colossus from within the the recall spell doesn't cancel the recall on the unit. imo, it absolutely should. Recall should be changed to recalling all units within an area, rather than all the units targeted when the spell is cast - that way abduct will be able to cancel recall on abducted units. Small tweak, but big difference in spectator enjoyment.

Collapsible Rocks

Nice gimmick. Hopefully there is the ability to make the fallen rocks become invincible (just so map makers have the option of creating true reverse island maps). One kinda interesting thing is that if you kill the rocks, and there is a unit underneath, the rocks will deal 500 damage to whatever is there. I thought it might kill whatever is underneath it so I sniped a collapsible rock tower next to a hatch - but alas, only 500 hp damage.

[image loading]

My physics degree tells me that these rocks should do more damage


Battle Hellions

I don't really understand why this unit needs to exist. The form your hellions are in is basically decided in the following way:
- Am I attacking/defending? Battle Hellion
- Am I scouting/harassing? Regular Hellion

The battle hellion is quite effective as an attacker but I just wish it added something interesting to the game. The community proposed a number of cool ideas for the hellion (things like napalm trails come to mind) which are infinitely more interesting than the battle hellion and provide the same anti-zealot utility. I just don't get what happened They are neutral because they are good at what they do, and fulfill its intended role - but are incredibly boring.

[image loading]

Boring, but they do what the box says they do

Ultra Charge

I haven't seen this used yet, so I can't comment.


The Bad

Automine workers

Okay, I get the argument that for whatever technical reason you can't split workers as fast as the next guy. But this is a bad change for the following reasons:
- split isn't optimal, so you're better off doing it yourself
- making workers mine means any proxy gate strategy is delayed a bit (seconds count!)

As this impacts on strategy, this option shouldn't exist. And if it does, it should be off by default or lower league only. Every masters+ player should have this off anyway.

The Oracle

In its current form, the oracle is a bad unit. Firstly, entomb is just not worth the cost. At 150/200 (+150/150 for stargate) the oracle is already very expensive and a big investment moreover at 100 energy it takes forever to charge up. The net gain from an entomb (vs a good player) is so small that you just can't justify it's cost. The only time it shines is against a low apm player where you can entomb while they are distracted by something to get the full utility of the spell. Any ability that targets mining directly is going to be difficult to balance, and like the overseer (which is difficult to balance because it gives supply), entomb is just a gimmick ability which doesn't actually give the user any benefit. If entomb is changed so that it's easier to access (via decreased energy or oracle cost) then it quickly becomes a broken ability. I don't think the sweet spot exists for this spell - so it's got to go.

Conversely, the other two abilities from the oracle are really useful if it weren't for one thing (which I'll get to in a moment). Preordain is amazing at scoping out an entire enemy base or for use in conjunction with the tempest. In particular, getting a preordain off on a main base hatch often reveals all of the Zergs tech choices which is quite useful. Revelation is also pretty useful in keeping tabs on your enemies army - or providing detection in a pinch. Both revelation and preordain give good scouting options to the Protoss. Except, Protoss already have a good scout in the form of the observer!! Only in very niche situations can I see these abilities being more useful than having a regular observer.

In summary, the oracle shows incredible promise but fails to deliver on every count. It's prohibitively expensive and it's abilities are either under powered (entomb) or overlaps with existing abilities (preordain/revelation). It's a shame because the oracle had me really excited

Hydra Speed

Why? Just, why? Giving hydras speed doesn't increase their utility in any way and they still have many of the same weaknesses with the upgrade (hi colossus!). Giving the hydralisks an evolution into something more tanky, or an upgrade to increase HP/armor, hell, even an upgrade to split into two locusts upon death would give the hydralisk more utility than the speed upgrade.

[image loading]

Hydras doing the only thing they know how to do, die.

Yes we wanted faster hydras, but at Hive tech it's far too late and there are already way too many counters for them out at this stage of the game.

Widow Mine

Kinda stupid. They seem very difficult to use properly and seem far more suited to rare situations. Without turtle mech, I find it hard to see a real use for this unit but hey, it's early days so let's give it time. Still, in its current form it needs work - hence why it's in the bad column.

Immortals

What are these guys doing here? Well, immortals suck vs mech. And if there were an anti-mech unit you'd expect it to be immortals. In particular, Warhounds stomp all over immortals which makes no sense what so ever. Upon closer examination I realised that the haywire missile does 30 damage across three rockets - i.e. 10 damage each rocket which isn't sufficient to trigger the immortals hardened shield. The result? Warhounds crush immortals.

[image loading]

Immortals being crushed, not pictured; 4 immortals that died seconds before

Another thing that can't be intended is that widow mines do not trigger the immortals hardened shield. So if an immortal wanders into range of one of these the mine deals full damage to it (and subsequently, removes all of the immortals shield).

The result is that immortals suck against mech. Blizzard, please fix this.


The Ugly

The Warhound

Without doubt the worst addition to HotS by a landslide. The colossus is a bad an uninteresting unit, but at least it is fragile and needs protection. The warhound deals ridiculous damage against mechanical units (and really, most units in general), is really cheap and unlike the colossus, hardly needs any support what so ever. There are already threads to discuss how bad this unit is, so I won't add much.

In any case, the unit ticks all the boxes for a bad unit. It's uninteresting, it's over powered, and it's the exact wrong direction HotS should be going.

The Tempest

22 Range? Are you serious. The unit is a flying gimmick and while I love having a siege air unit with amazing range as Protoss, it just isn't a Battle cruiser or a Brood lord, it's just a gimmick. The ultimate Protoss starship should not be a harass unit for crying out loud.

[image loading]

BCs pretty much annihilate tempests - that's a yamato gun hitting the tempest btw


Okay aside from that, the Tempest isn't what Protoss need at the moment. The protoss need a versatile air unit capable of dealing with mech at the moment. Void rays don't cut it (and phoenix don't either). Something like the old Tempest (essentially a more accessible carrier but with some modifications to balance things) would be x10 as appreciated because then we'd actually have a versatile air force capable of dealing with mech (and thereby mitigating the OPness of the warhound.).

Please, go back to the drawing board and really think about what protoss need.

[image loading]

Hint hint Blizzard


The Dark Shrine

Hugely disappointed that this is still a deadend tech tree giving only a niche unit. Surely Blizzard could come up with something to make it not so dead end? (Incidentally, DTs aren't terrible against mech ._.).

****
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
September 06 2012 03:54 GMT
#2
high quality work!
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
September 06 2012 03:55 GMT
#3
Great read!
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
September 06 2012 04:02 GMT
#4
Excellent writeup, Plexa. I actually think there isn't much controversy over what's good/bad. Everyone is more or less negative on the warhound, so I can expect that to change. Tempest as well - I feel like they're just trying to bring back the namesakes from the SC2 alpha (Oracle was similar to an old protoss unit design, the dark carriers were originally known as Tempest).

I was, and still am, so bleh on the Oracle. Could you elaborate what you were excited about? Because the entombed ability is one of the most one dimensional and non-exciting "harass" spells in the game. It needs a huge rework IMO - I think there's huge potential for it to be a support caster.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
September 06 2012 04:03 GMT
#5
Okay after reading this I will concede that the worker count thing is okay. But I still think it is ugly as all hell.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
September 06 2012 04:04 GMT
#6
Great article!

I agree with a lot of what you said. I play P+Z, thinking about going fully Z for HotS. I really feel that the new Protoss units fill some specialty and gimmicky roles while the other races got standard units. Even if they balanced it out, it's a drastic change in playstyle that makes the race less fun for me. By giving T and Z standard units and not P, it feels like P is the weaker race, but I have to use the new units to harass the enemy down to my level. It's just my speculation atm, I'll be curious to see how everything plays out.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
September 06 2012 04:06 GMT
#7
Awesome blog, i agree with most of it, but it is all well written and well thought out. 5 stars.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
September 06 2012 04:17 GMT
#8
I agree with pretty much all your points.

I really hope its not to late to fix the game and that Blizzard is reading all this negative feedback.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 06 2012 04:18 GMT
#9
On September 06 2012 13:02 shindigs wrote:
Excellent writeup, Plexa. I actually think there isn't much controversy over what's good/bad. Everyone is more or less negative on the warhound, so I can expect that to change. Tempest as well - I feel like they're just trying to bring back the namesakes from the SC2 alpha (Oracle was similar to an old protoss unit design, the dark carriers were originally known as Tempest).

I was, and still am, so bleh on the Oracle. Could you elaborate what you were excited about? Because the entombed ability is one of the most one dimensional and non-exciting "harass" spells in the game. It needs a huge rework IMO - I think there's huge potential for it to be a support caster.

A mobile spell caster from the stargate sounds like it has potential. A unit designed to harass sounds like it has potential. Entomb is a spell which sounds like it should be good. All of these things make me excited for the oracle.

But then you start playing with it and start examining the reality of each of the spells. And then you're disappointed. Entomb, in reality, is impossible to balance correctly (as I said). And the other abilities have significant overlap (something blizzard tries to avoid, I thought?).

It feels like a unit that should be a lot better than it really is.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 06 2012 04:19 GMT
#10
From what I've seen of the HotS beta streams this seems pretty accurate. I haven't seen hydras used, however I think you're understating the usefulness of a free buff. The way that you described how they should be just makes them sound like a roach that hits air with a bit more dps. Not that they wouldn't be good, but I don't think that's the right place for them.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
September 06 2012 04:21 GMT
#11
Great write up!
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 06 2012 04:24 GMT
#12
Nice job Plexa. I can't run SC2 at all on my computer and haven't been able to get around to watching streams, so I really appreciate the analysis and write-up. Thanks!
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
September 06 2012 04:31 GMT
#13
I really think that the swarm host costs too much supply. This coupled with all workers caught up in economy and the high supply cost of units in general is pretty damn bad.

Hydras really should be 1 supply. That or roaches. Same with tanks - and tanks should be un-nerfed back to one of the stages a year ago with more damage - we aren't on Steppes of War anymore. Also consider making them 2 supply as well.

My issues with the game are the economy and the high supply cost in general - I like most of the concepts except the warpound, lack of use for the viper, and the silliness of the mothership core (super unit in general).

Really happy with the CONCEPT of the swarm host, it just needs a lot of stat tweaking.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 06 2012 04:32 GMT
#14
On September 06 2012 13:19 Grobyc wrote:
From what I've seen of the HotS beta streams this seems pretty accurate. I haven't seen hydras used, however I think you're understating the usefulness of a free buff. The way that you described how they should be just makes them sound like a roach that hits air with a bit more dps. Not that they wouldn't be good, but I don't think that's the right place for them.

It isn't a free buff though? You have to research it and you can only research it once you get to hive tech. It just doesn't help with any problems that the hydra has since by hive tech hydras are largely irrelevant.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8108 Posts
September 06 2012 04:37 GMT
#15
people have complained about the warhound being boring for over a year and blizzard hasn't done shit to make it cooler. I think most of these units show that they are more interested in making units that look cool aesthetically instead of actually creating cool new gameplay mechanics. Judging by how blizzard handled the beta for WoL (only changing things to "balance" the game, no changes to make the game more interesting) I doubt there will be any real changes to the game beyond some balance stuff at this point.

I was hoping HoTS would make SC2 more appealing to me but a lot of these units are just dumb (swarm host seems like the only neat unit to me). how fuck do you spend 2 years working on new units, taking in everything we learned about why some units in SC2/BW are boring and why some units in SC2/BW are exciting and then come up with the fucking warhound?

btw the detection for oracle does overlap with observers but I think that's what blizzard wanted. they wanted it to be safer to go stargate before robo.
Free Palestine
butter
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States785 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 04:48:31
September 06 2012 04:43 GMT
#16
I'm confused. When you say 'mech', are you talking about tanks or warhound/thor/widow mine?
TL should have a minigame where you have to destroy some rocks before you can make a new post – DentalFloss
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 04:50:13
September 06 2012 04:45 GMT
#17
On easy mode worker counts:

The problem I still have:"there's still many things that a player has to check like mineral counts at your opponents expos to determine how long it has been up.".

Automating basic things that you should master to be a master only lowers the difficulty and 'so what' if it isn't as flashy as a colossus drop. It's way more important. It's a terrible choice to make the game easier.

Grobyc you probably haven't seen anyone use hydras in TvZ since early 2011. You know what tanks do to marines? They do the same thing to hydras. Only hydras are twice the price plus gas. Speed is irrelevant. Imagine BW + forcefields. There'd never be a lost reaver again. Hitting a hydra timing in ZvP without relying on a nydus is one of the most ballsy strategies you can really do. Two colossii and a couple of forcefields and you'll lose your army for nothing and almost certainly the game. It's that suicidal in ZvP.. so in ZvT when your opponent is pretty much assuredly going to get tanks your chance of success drops from 10% to 3%.

Plexa is absolutely right. Hydra speed is too little too late.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
September 06 2012 04:48 GMT
#18
agree with most of this list.

I really like the widow mine though I wouldn't put it under bad. I think it's a really fun/positional unit that's fun to use.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 04:53:12
September 06 2012 04:50 GMT
#19
On September 06 2012 13:37 Ideas wrote:
btw the detection for oracle does overlap with observers but I think that's what blizzard wanted. they wanted it to be safer to go stargate before robo.

Yeah I get that, but to be that seems like a bad design decision.
On September 06 2012 13:48 LuckyFool wrote:
agree with most of this list.

I really like the widow mine though I wouldn't put it under bad. I think it's a really fun/positional unit that's fun to use.

It was pretty borderline for me. It just... didn't seem as useful as spider mines if yo know what i mean
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
khanofmongols
Profile Joined January 2011
542 Posts
September 06 2012 04:52 GMT
#20
See I like the idea of the tempest, the ability to create positional tension, but it pretty much means the death of any siege tank based mech in TvP. since the tempest will just site outside of siege tank range and slowly whittle away at the terran mech ball. Maybe if the range was decreased slightly to like 17-18 then we could see an interesting dance of vikings and stalkers or high templar and tempests at the edge of siege tank range.

I feel that it has potential in ZvP too since we will see a dance of vipers trying to abduct, this works on air yes?, the tempests while templar or stalkers try to keep them away, and trying to use corruptors to kill the abducted tempests. I just think that the range needs tweaking.
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