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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
Obviously dont stick them at max range because youll get 1 hit, but they can be safely used at a small distance from the bottom of a walled ramp, have a few buffer units in between and they are totally protected. And colossus role over anything in 'sufficient numbers' kinda wierd to mention that | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
A lot of protoss do not understand how to play against mech, and they only have 1 robo making immortals and then don't know what they're doing wrong. When you watch really good Protoss in wings of liberty vs mech they make mech look like tonka toys because of triple/quadruple robos pumping out mass immortals, along with mass, mass gateways for instant chargelot/archon reinforcements. Immortals are cost effective even against warhounds when you target fire or get enough of them, then it comes down to the Terran needing ghost EMP to negate the shields and it then it reverses to warhounds being better obviously because of no shields. As for the hydra...the speed really does improve it...but at hive tech? Yeah, what's the point of it being at hive? I agree, like basically everyone else, that it's a boring 1A unit though (the warhound). Also void rays are only meant to skew the mech player's unit composition to force vikings/catch them off guard and kill a lot of units for free or stop pushes. Carriers > tempest tho imo you're right the 22 range is a gimmick. Widow mine was pre-emptively nerfed before they released beta due to balance whine on the forums. They should put it back to the previous stats with better splash. I agree with most of the other stuff ya said. Except battle hellions are pretty badass imo. | ||
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
Widow mines I think have a lot of potential and I want to see them used a bit more... I think the problem atm is that the warhound is so strong/easy to use compared to the mine that there's little need for the mines. I do like the idea though. Tempest I think is interesting because of the crazy range, but I feel it needs a lot of tweaking... it seems it'd be good to give it a + damage to something so it's not totally crap in straight up fights. Maybe +massive so it can pick off broods, colossi and thors slightly more effectively. I dunno, really. Oracle I'm hoping will be tailored to be a kind of "stargate observer" to enable toss to open stargate or robo a little more freely... as such, I don't mind the similarities. But maybe something different could be done. I feel like the starting worker-mining thing is a double edged sword... I don't mind having it because of the lag people have at the start, but I'd not like it to ever be equal to or better than good splitting. As such I'd like to see it guaranteed that it'll be worse than splitting correctly; it always must send to the "worst" mineral patch and mustn't split for you, just box and click. I really don't know about the warhound; I don't really like it, and it feels too good for its cost. My reaction overall to the beta is very positive; can't wait to use the swarm host. I think the issues with it late game can be hugely mitigated by good control and turning off auto-locust, so you can time waves of locusts manually. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
Of course, if David Kim didn't destroy TvZ, we'd still see hellions filling this role (they now escort his warhounds). And then we'd be left with this generic ground-to-ground unit that fills no real role, other than to cause unwarranted grief to Protoss players. Hopefully, they'll learn that the old guys screaming about Brood War aren't being unreasonable, and realize that they need to build upon StarCraft, rather than reinvent the wheel. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:55 avilo wrote: I've gone triple robo vs mech and still come out worse off. Warhounds destroy immortals because their haywire missiles don't activate the shields. Hence, Terrans don't even need ghosts to deactivate the shields!!!!! That's whats so messed up, immortals SHOULD kill mech, but they dont.Well, I disagree 100% with you about immortals being bad against mech. Immortals are still good against mech. So are voids, though carriers would be ideal over the tempest. A lot of protoss do not understand how to play against mech, and they only have 1 robo making immortals and then don't know what they're doing wrong. When you watch really good Protoss in wings of liberty vs mech they make mech look like tonka toys because of triple/quadruple robos pumping out mass immortals, along with mass, mass gateways for instant chargelot/archon reinforcements. Immortals are cost effective even against warhounds when you target fire or get enough of them, then it comes down to the Terran needing ghost EMP to negate the shields and it then it reverses to warhounds being better obviously because of no shields. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:02 Chairman Ray wrote: I think the intended purpose of the hydra speed upgrade is for late game scenarios where the Zerg still has a couple dozen Hydras left, and they need a speed buff to stay relevant with the rest of the lategame Zerg army. Giving the hydras the upgrade and letting them pay off part of their investment may be more desirable alternative than letting them be a poor use of supply. Another purpose may be to prevent autoloss when Protoss rushes Tempests and you don't have a spire since Tempests can kite slow hydras forever, but hydras still can't transcend cliffs, so I dunno. I still can't see this upgrade being standard though. The interview I saw with David Kim implied hydra/viper tongue was going to be the new late game zerg. That hydra speed makes hydras instantly relevant vs any composition in combination with the viper. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:02 Chairman Ray wrote: I think the intended purpose of the hydra speed upgrade is for late game scenarios where the Zerg still has a couple dozen Hydras left, and they need a speed buff to stay relevant with the rest of the lategame Zerg army. Giving the hydras the upgrade and letting them pay off part of their investment may be more desirable alternative than letting them be a poor use of supply. Another purpose may be to prevent autoloss when Protoss rushes Tempests and you don't have a spire since Tempests can kite slow hydras forever, but hydras still can't transcend cliffs, so I dunno. I still can't see this upgrade being standard though. Blizzard is probably afraid of roach/hydra/viper being too powerful in the mid-game vs Protoss (vipers + range-upgraded hydralisk focus-fire makes corruptors almost obsolete for anti-colossi purposes). It would be too much for too little too early in the game. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
A player with knowledge of proper worker saturation can easily avoid this, in which case the actual worker counter is very useful. However, the low-level player is ironically hurt by this feature when he tries to follow the suggested optimal saturation exactly only to be oversaturated when he does achieve these suggested numbers. | ||
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how2TL
1197 Posts
I hope Terran meta doesn't turn into Battle Hellion + Warhound deathball. Fuck that will be boring. To your point regarding Hydras, if they had an upgrade that improved their durability then suddenly Hydra deathballs too. At least Valve recognized they should leave competitive game design to people who've actually created competitive games... | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
Don't worry guys thats in the next game they can't give all their great idea out for hots zz | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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RiceAgainst
United States1849 Posts
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:26 blade55555 wrote: Man the swarmhost and viper are so awesome. I really like them as units and hope swarmhost doesn't get nerfed to badly (idk doesn't seem op to me but I just have a feeling it's going to be nerfed, I don't have beta so maybe it is OP but looks so fun to use). It's fragile in smaller numbers but if the opponent doesn't have ridiculous splash and you get a good mass you just can'st stop them :| I think the mines are good, but I'm still spoiled from spider mines. | ||
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yoshi_yoshi
United States440 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:02 Plexa wrote: I've gone triple robo vs mech and still come out worse off. Warhounds destroy immortals because their haywire missiles don't activate the shields. Hence, Terrans don't even need ghosts to deactivate the shields!!!!! That's whats so messed up, immortals SHOULD kill mech, but they dont. I did a lot, a lot of unit tests when the custom map was out with immortals vs warhounds specifically to test cost effectiveness of immortals against mech (and yes the stats were exactly the same along with everything else). The immortals cost for cost were destroying warhounds quite easily with a lot leftover, regardless of the missile getting through shields because the immortal's damage output vs mech is so high. Combine this with collosus/other units, and then it gets trickier. Just as well as the Terran adding in ghosts it gets very tricky. In a vacuum type of test I tested 200/200 immortal vs 200/200 warhound and the immortals came out way ahead with an incredible cost efficiency ratio. I did the same test and added in only 2-4 ghosts with full energy for EMPs and suddenly the warhounds came out of the fight with huge cost efficiency and almost the exact reverse result of leftover units. Now we add in other units to these compositions...along with an actual 1v1 game being played out...waaaaay too early to claim immortals are bad against mech. As far as I can tell they are just as good against mech as they are in WoL. Of course that doesn't mean the warhound doesn't need a lot of work done in either design / balance. And I believe it's intended for the haywire missile to be able to get through immortal's shields because the immortal is such a hard counter to mech that blizzard decided they wanted a unit that would be able to help fight against the immortal from Terran mech that did not require having to get ghost EMP which requires a barracks + ghost academy + upgrade research + the ghost themselves. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13403 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:03 heyoka wrote: Okay after reading this I will concede that the worker count thing is okay. But I still think it is ugly as all hell. Put it in the wireframe. Just like how it is on the gas right now. I would be happy. As for the article, it sums up really well what I have been watching on streams. Wish I had beta  Part of the reason the warhound is so good? It looks to me like the warhound uses its missiles IN ADDITION TO AND DURING its standard attack. So if they have a standard DPS of 10 for example (idk the numbers) then in addition to the 10DPS for the duration of the missile attack while it is on Cooldown, you add another 20 dps for example. This is what it looks like to me when I watch, but needs testing. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:53 ZeromuS wrote: Put it in the wireframe. Just like how it is on the gas right now. I would be happy. As for the article, it sums up really well what I have been watching on streams. Wish I had beta Part of the reason the warhound is so good? It looks to me like the warhound uses its missiles IN ADDITION TO AND DURING its standard attack. So if they have a standard DPS of 10 for example (idk the numbers) then in addition to the 10DPS for the duration of the missile attack while it is on Cooldown, you add another 20 dps for example. This is what it looks like to me when I watch, but needs testing. Yeah. It's also really good because if gives you insane initial dps with higher range than stalker. So sentries and staklers and to a lesser degree immortals can die before they do damage. And it lets you poke in and out super efficiently. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
edit: i say this because as i was watching some zerg streams today, despite the protoss players using entomb ( i know we havent figured out the best way to use them ) but it seemed like a small annoyance and they just got ride of the entomb fields in just a few seconds. It doesnt feel like it can do the effect that we want it to in the early-mid game, unless ofc the other player does a huge ass mistake. | ||
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