EPTTSL Replays - Page 4
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Snipinpanda
United States1227 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:52 gusbear wrote: What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. 1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither WWI or WCG have sponsors(I suppose WWI could be blizzard, but they made the freaking game, so they wouldn't need it) 2) TSL does have its reasons for withholding replays, and a lot of it has to do with money. With VODs, you see the Razer tag and logo so much more, you can't achieve the same thing with replays. Teamliquid wants to give Razer good advertisement, otherwise Razer might not sponsor the next TSL. None of us want that. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
I think you're also totally missing my point that replays downplay the uniqueness, specialty, and awesomeness of the VOD experience. Period. When people watched Oov in his prime roll out with a million tanks totally out of nowhere because the camera didn't catch it, it was jawdropping. Nobody knew how the hell he did it. People got excited. Commentators were in awe. Fan girls went crazy. And you could just FEEL his opponent's thoughts of "OH SHIT!" as his forces stream rolled into the center. Needless to say, the fact that the replay for that game was not immediately released made that moment all the more incredible. It created a legend. A "macro-hack". A replay would have absolutely taken away a lot of the mystery and thus a lot of the hype. It just is not as marketable. And THAT is what I'm talking about. If people don't have times to watch all the games and it becomes an issue, high lights may become realistic in the far future. But right now, it's too bad. People without cable cannot watch OGN in Korea. People unwilling to pay cannot go watch the latest Blockbuster movie in theaters. People without money cannot afford to watch the hottest new Broadway show. Sure, coverage is important. And that's why we are trying to get the word out as much as possible. But when too much coverage cheapens the product and makes it less attractive to sponsors, TV contracts (this is the dream), and overall health and future direction of the industry, decisions need to be made and some viewers sacrificed. And that's exactly what the TSL did. Trust me, this is the right choice. EDIT: Yo, those big tournaments do have sponsors. Usually big ones like Samsung sponsor WCG. But thing is, a thing like WCG with a lot of exposure might turn people into gamers and thus a competitive "sport" of sorts, but with their system, not as likely into a spectator sport. EDIT2: And as far as time goes, soccer broadcasts take like 2 hours. If recorded, 90 minutes. Baseball games go longer. Football games can go for hours as well. If we just say two hours, and say the average SC game is 25 minutes, you could watch 5 games in that. That's one BO5 or two BO3s. So if you follow your favorite player, just as you'd follow your favorite team in soccer, you'd have time to watch one "matchup". And if you just follow a team or player but you don't have two hours to watch one week, you can watch high lights or read up match summaries/reports to see what happened. That's what normal sports spectators do as well. Welcome to spectating a sport. Welcome to spectating an e-sport. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:52 gusbear wrote: What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. Your earlier argument that replays would reach a larger audience than VODs is ridiculous. You ever see someone who doesn't play Starcraft install and watch replays? But have you ever seen someone who doesn't actively play watch VODs? There is no way that replays reach a larger audience. The mass appeal of youtube videos and downloadable matches with commentary and advertisements built in is significantly more legitimate, professional, and wide-ranging than a replay pack. The ads are more dynamic, eye catching, and stay with the viewer longer. You get "Razer TSL" repeated in your brain, from the intro, from the casters. It doesn't even compare to whatever you can build into a replay that everyone will change or ignore anyway. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. ...is exactly why we shouldn't release replays. Yes, there are huge differences between us and the OSL, nobody is contending that. You see us as some sort of cheap imitation, trying to copy a professional league. You are essentially saying "TSL is not the OSL, be more like the non-OSL tournaments. Know your place." But we don't see it that way. We dare to dream and aim higher. We see us as the start of something that could be big. Maybe we'll flame out, maybe we'll make it. But releasing replays like any other league is a step toward less professional tournaments and a step away from what we're aiming for. (By the way, using WCG as an example of a tournament we should emulate really undermines your credibility in every way. As does comparing the TSL to an invite tournament with like 8 players.) If you think sponsors will be happy with a simple fog of war "Razer" at the beginning of a replay that nobody will even pay attention to, or a replay named Razer_MondivsDreiven that will be renamed and repackaged in an instant, you are only fooling yourself. Many people have outlined the many reasons why VODs are superior for the credibility, longevity, and future of our league and the interests of our sponsor (and potential sponsors). Yet you still believe, even after watching the broadcasts, that releasing replays is a wise decision. We, and our sponsors, do not. Thank goodness you are not in charge of TSL2, because then our chances of getting future sponsorship would be about the same as your chances of ever possessing a TSL1 replay. | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
On May 12 2008 16:23 Mada_Jiang wrote: I dream that Blizzard would actually make SC2 replays to allow Ads together with a function that allows recording of commentry? Maybe even intermittent advertisments lol Would look exactly like VODs while still being a replay. Wouldn't that be awsome ^.^ no more needs for VODs. I don't want ads in replays that I'm trying to technically analyse -_-. That's what replays are there for. Vods are vods. Replays are replays. They're used for different purposes. I personally support the idea of vods only for TSL - for one, I agree with the reasoning of Klogon. For another, Manifesto said 'end of story'. When the owner of the site tells you it is the end of the story, it is end of story. Plus, they're contractually obliged not to release reps. I think they value Razer's contract more than your approval. On a tangentially related note, why would you even want to analyse the play of foreigners? They're all inferior to Koreans. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
My misconception is that the TSL was solely a project for the community i.e. sacrificing nothing to bring the best coverage to the fans. I would imagine this would mean being able to watch vods and then go look at the replays and have the ability to focus on other parts of the game and go "wow" all over again. Now i realise that the TSL is also aiming to become something bigger like a TV show in the future and in this case you feel vods are the only way to go, even if it means some fans will be dissapointed. fair enough. Taking this into account this hopefully will be my last rant: I don't think sponsors need more proof that the concept is viable, all they need to do is look at korean tv leagues. Before the TSL gets its own TV show, I think replays are still the best way of promoting competitive starcraft and they help increase the vod watching fanbase. As hotbid said, watching replays requires a starcraft installation. Well then, that should take a big chunk out of the fear that replays will steal viewership from vods. This would lend more credibility to my arguments: 1)VODs and replays are totally different, they complement rather than replace the other. 2)Some people have technical difficulties watching VODs or Replays(no sc installed), therefore its best to have both available. 3)Replays are easier to distribute, able to reach and draw in more uninformed/non-vod-watching people which would otherwise never know about the TSL. bnetTom: check out this replay its sick! bnetDick: holy shit where is this from? bnetTom: Babara starleague bnetDick: tell me more, do they have vods? 4)This is exactly how I would NOT react: OMG TSL releases VODs AND replays? It must be some random shitty tournament. 5)The TSL is AWESOME, you guys have done a great job, the VODs are insane! do you really think releasing a bunch of replays is going to change any of that? | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
On May 12 2008 17:23 gusbear wrote: 1)VODs and replays are totally different, they complement rather than replace the other. 2)Some people have technical difficulties watching VODs or Replays(no sc installed), therefore its best to have both available. 3)Replays are easier to distribute, able to reach and draw in more uninformed/non-vod-watching people which would otherwise never know about the TSL. bnetTom: check out this replay its sick! bnetDick: holy shit where is this from? bnetTom: Babara starleague bnetDick: tell me more, do they have vods? 4)This is exactly how I would NOT react: OMG TSL releases VODs AND replays? It must be some random shitty tournament. 5)The TSL is AWESOME, you guys have done a great job, the VODs are insane! do you really think releasing a bunch of replays is going to change any of that? 1) sure, they complement each other if the person watching it is trying to analyze it and extract data from it. but from a spectator's point of it, VODs are more people-friendly; you have an obs directing your attention to the important stuff, and commentators filling you in on what exactly is going on. 2) what technical difficulties? lack of a high-speed internet connection? 3) replays are indeed easier to distribute, but drawing in MORE (uninformed) people? i dont think theyll really care to find out what the TSL in the replay name/description means. bnetTom: check out this sick replay! bnetTim: okay! the end 4) this is exactly how i would NOT react: TSL live broadcasts and VOD releases? how lame. 5) perhaps you didnt read your own topic. go back and read the replies on why replays arent being released. Klogon made a really eloquent post just above yours. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Watch July vs Goodfriend Ever 2005 finals from the OGN cast. Now watch the leaked replay. Simply no comparison in terms of entertainment value, suspense, drama... the list goes on. The vod is a completely different (i.e. superior) experience, as many people with and without authority have said here. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
(fixing) | ||
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PePe QuiCoSE
Argentina1204 Posts
edit: wow, after reading gosugamers comments on Razor TSL i'm starting to understand where this come from. There is no real argument, just lazyness. | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
Please stop trying to argue about this with weak reasoning at best. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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itzme_petey
United States1400 Posts
Replays will not be released. It is part of our sponsorship deal. End of story. –manifesto Releasing reps means less VOD views. -SonuvBob Yes, there are huge differences between us and the OSL, nobody is contending that. You see us as some sort of cheap imitation, trying to copy a professional league. You are essentially saying "TSL is not the OSL, be more like the non-OSL tournaments. Know your place." But we don't see it that way. We dare to dream and aim higher. We see us as the start of something that could be big. – hotbid The reasons above were the most concrete reasons for not releasing replays. I don’t agree with any of them other than the contractual agreement reason. Here is why: Releasing replays after one or more months of finals broadcast would not hurt viewer numbers. Viewers who love the commentary and broadcast/camera work will watch the VODS during live stream regardless. I admit, a VOD and replay are two different experiences. Released at correct times and in correct format (maps in replays have sponsor ads embedded in them) VODS and replays complement each other. Replays to such a great tournament have value. Leverage it correctly, maybe by releasing them a week or so before the next TSL to get people stirred up and excited about the next TSL tournament. The staff went through the effort to create a deliverable such as VODS. I appreciate the hard work TSL staff puts in. I understand the perspective of professionalizing TSL and letting it take off. Releasing replays has always been a foreign community trait. Why not take the best of both worlds and create something new, and not just a carbon copy of OSL/MSL. Sponsors will come as long as there is a community watching your project. By not releasing replays, you risk alienating the community. This is not a project for profit; this is a project for the community. TSL will only get as big as long as it does not turn its back on the foreign community. To me, not releasing replays is a slap in the face. What makes TSL special is the sense of community behind it. However, its starting to seem like a product that sponsors have by the leash. Even without such a large sum of prize money, people will still play and watch. Correct me if im wrong, but the prize money was already paid for before Razer stepped in. Razer should have very little say in anything you guys do. My impression from all the talk about sponsorship money is that TSL is bending backwards to please the sponsors that they never needed. Whatever is decided next TSL, I hope the staff decides to ultimately release the replays. A gesture that tells the community that TSL is for foreigners by foreigners. | ||
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Saline
United States73 Posts
I love Starcraft, and I play it for fun. I'm not going to pay people money for it, and I'm not going to go out of my way to get other people to play. I've been playing for a long time, it's pretty dear to me (still my favorite game after what, ten years?), and I still play pretty actively. I think I'm a pretty typical player. I follow some of the tournaments, I know the names of the big progamers and some of the top non-Korean foreign gamers. I like watching their games because it helps me improve. I can watch with awe at their astounding micro and I can also learn from their tactics. That being said, I have always hated VODs, and most of the other people I talk to do as well. When I watch a VOD, I don't give one flying sh*t about the audience. I don't care if people are screaming (hell, I can't understand them anyway, I only speak English!)--I can feel the anticipation myself. Most of the observers for VODs are pretty terrible anyway, moving away to watch a probe mining when a huge battle with plague, swarm, maelstrom, reavers, and corsairs are battling away for their lives. I watch a VOD and I think "Crap! Move your mouse over so I can see what's happening over there!" The only difference between a VOD and a replay for me is that VODs are terrible quality and I have no control over what part of the game I'm seeing, as well as the fact that I can't control the speed. I'm not going to donate to any of the sponsors, I'm not going to buy their products, and I'm not going to go through the huge trouble of downloading enormous files just to see a game. And I think that the vast majority of SC players are the same way. I like Starcraft because of the game itself, not because of the politics surrounding; I couldn't care less about that. If anything, I would follow these tournaments MUCH more closely with replays, because then I could actually WATCH games between between great world-class players without feeling confined to crappy quality videos over which I have no control. If you want my suggestion (assuming that VODs will continue to replace replays), I'll give it regardless: give us some first-person VODs played from the actual gamers' machines, come up with some hack to see more of the map from an observers point of view, or release replays with ads in them! | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
In addition if you just want to see reps of the players themselves but not in the tourney itself they released a huge rep pack with 100s of reps from every player. edit: After reading your post again, you do realize the commentary is in English right? And I guess they could make a watermarked map that has the Razer logo sporadically in it and that way Razer still gets publicity or w/e and people get their reps but that's their call to make not yours. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
However, there are already nearly 10,000 replays from the TSL. The point of replays to me is to improve your game, and the point of VODs is mostly entertainment, but also game improving. There are already so many reps that offer opportunities to be entertained / improve your game that I don't think the release of the reps from RO16+ is even a big deal, either way. | ||
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