| Blogs > gusbear |
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gusbear
333 Posts
Replays will not be released. It is part of our sponsorship deal. End of story. Not releasing replays is just lame. The only semi-legit reason not to release replays would be to protect the players' strats/playstyle. If this is a marketing decision by Razer, someone should tell them they are doing more harm than good. How do i start a petition to Razer...   | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
Your petition with your ONE signature Good luck haha | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
B) Perhaps you haven't considered how much is being invested. This was not a decision by Razer, but rather by us. We are giving Razer a "bang for their buck" for lack of a better term and that includes the name and logo attached to media seen by the viewer...cant do that with a replay. C) Dont start a petition to Razer because it is simply part of the contract. | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
d) learn how to spell razer | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
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gusbear
333 Posts
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frozenclaw
Canada409 Posts
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gusbear
333 Posts
But, as a supporter of TL and Razer, this seems to be a bad decision and they could get so much more exposure with proper release of the replays. I cant understand why anyone thinks vods alone are superior so feel free to post your arguments | ||
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SonuvBob
Aiur21549 Posts
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:02 gusbear wrote: To clarify: Whether the reps get released or not means nothing to me. But, as a supporter of TL and Razer, this seems to be a bad decision and they could get so much more exposure with proper release of the replays. I cant understand why anyone thinks vods alone are superior so feel free to post your arguments On May 11 2008 20:46 Manifesto7 wrote: Replays will not be released. It is part of our sponsorship deal. End of story. On May 11 2008 20:46 Manifesto7 wrote: Replays will not be released. It is part of our sponsorship deal. End of story. (Yes, I posted it two times, maybe he didn't get it the first time) | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
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Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
You can tell him one time without flaming the crap out of him, like "By releasing replays, we would get less VOD views, thus less promoting for our great sponsor! It's part of a deal, I hope you can enjoy it anyway :-)" | ||
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Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
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KwarK
United States42419 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:23 d1v wrote: Guys, please don't flame him unnecessarily. I would like to see the replays as well, but I fully respect the decision made by the TL.net staff, since they just want the best for the TSL, which also consists of having good relations to your sponsors. However, I just recently saw, that some Chinese league (PLU or something?) has maps, where the fog of war is partially removed in the beginning, to reveal said "PLU" letters. I think this has potential and could be considered for the next TSL, no? Nice idea actually. Fill the replays with razer icons and put their logo on the map tiles themself (like in pringles?) and then they'll be as good as vods for adverts. I'd forgotten about that.  | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On May 12 2008 01:45 Kennigit wrote: A) Grow a brain B) Perhaps you haven't considered how much is being invested. This was not a decision by Razer, but rather by us. We are giving Razer a "bang for their buck" for lack of a better term and that includes the name and logo attached to media seen by the viewer...cant do that with a replay. C) Dont start a petition to Razer because it is simply part of the contract. A good idea would've been to edit the maps to have the Razer logo on the ground like they did for the Pringles MSL or something =O. edit: oops I"m in idiot, didn't read the thread. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Please. Show some mental fortitude and realize the world goes beyond your limited and personal "needs." Replays would be nice, but we cant have em. Move on. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:10 SonuvBob wrote: Releasing reps means less VOD views. I havent seen the VODs so im not sure what kind of advertising there is in them. Well if its a 10 sec product clip or subtle name dropping and endorsement by the commentators, i agree this sort of advertising is hard to implement into replays. One way of doing something similar is to make the user navigate through a bunch of ads on the site before having access to the replays, but really this isn't a big deal. The huge exposure you are missing out on are the people who do not watch vods, and people who do not know about TL or Razer, those are the people who should have priority. Like a guy who comes across a Razer TSL replay on some random replay site, or maybe it was given to him by a friend, whatever. He in turn gets to know about Razer and TL.net. Everyone on TL.net knows about Razer and TSL, there is no need to advertise to these people any more. I hope you can see my point that replays are a much better tool than vods to get to those guys outside the community (who are the people that really matter), or those that would never have seen the vods anyway. This is similar to the mp3 argument, where the ease of obtaining music allowed exposure to people who would not have even known about it and would have had zero chance of buying the cd. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
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gusbear
333 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:23 d1v wrote: Guys, please don't flame him unnecessarily. I would like to see the replays as well, but I fully respect the decision made by the TL.net staff, since they just want the best for the TSL, which also consists of having good relations to your sponsors. I apologize if anyone thinks i am disrespecting TL or Razer, that was totally not my intention. On the contrary, I've only brought this up because I feel strongly that not releasing replays does more harm than good to TL and Razer. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:42 Kwark wrote: Nice idea actually. Fill the replays with razer icons and put their logo on the map tiles themself (like in pringles?) and then they'll be as good as vods for adverts. I'd forgotten about that. i thought those logos on the map tiles or whatever were just video overlays O_O didnt know you could put them on the tiles like that? -_-a | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I couldn't disagree more with the OP. With vods you go to the Razer-TSL site, you stare at a backdrop that has Razer advertisements on it and you generally look at Razer over and over. If you dl a replay you get perhaps half the advertisement and only once. They gave 10k more dollars. If they asked that the staff end every post with "Razer" like a signature they wouldn't be asking too much. Please. Show some mental fortitude and realize the world goes beyond your limited and personal "needs." Replays would be nice, but we cant have em. Move on. Absolutely agree with inc. There is a reason why the Korean leagues do not release their replays as well. | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On May 12 2008 03:04 gusbear wrote: I apologize if anyone thinks i am disrespecting TL or Razer, that was totally not my intention. On the contrary, I've only brought this up because I feel strongly that not releasing replays does more harm than good to TL and Razer. When you watch a replay the viewing experience is so very different from a VOD for various reasons. | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
With vods you go to the Razer-TSL site, you stare at a backdrop that has Razer advertisements on it and you generally look at Razer over and over. If you dl a replay you get perhaps half the advertisement and only once. Well, imagine if the replays were available on the Razer TSL page only (meaning fu@GG.net ) you'd have the same amount of advertisements. If you incorporated the logo within the fog of war and maybe add an additional logo on the map, it probably would equal the VODs. Anyways, this is a huge amount of work to do and therefore, I cannot blame the TL.net staff for going for the easier solution. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
On May 12 2008 03:17 Schnake wrote: When you watch a replay the viewing experience is so very different from a VOD for various reasons. It can be subjectively argued whether vods or replays are better for the viewer, but one thing is for sure, having the choice of both is better than one. But this isn't my point, I am arguing that the TSL gains a lot more exposure if they release reps as well and they should not think of it as a hindrance to their investment. I believe it is a win-win situation for both TSL (more exposure) and the viewers (no more whining about no replays). | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 12 2008 03:21 d1v wrote: Well, imagine if the replays were available on the Razer TSL page only (meaning fu@GG.net ) you'd have the same amount of advertisements. If you incorporated the logo within the fog of war and maybe add an additional logo on the map, it probably would equal the VODs. Anyways, this is a huge amount of work to do and therefore, I cannot blame the TL.net staff for going for the easier solution.NO you would have the same amount once. Whereas with vods EACH TIME you view them you get those advertisements. Just like I said in my post... And you are talking about editing in a logo in the fog of war and the map? Do you know what it would take to edit that in to a replay? You have no idea do you? I'm seeing a trend... | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
you would have the same amount once. Whereas with vods EACH TIME you view them you get those advertisements. Just like I said in my post... Go to youtube.com, they're up there anyways, and it's not like that small Razer logo on the top left is really a viable ad.. And you are talking about editing in a logo in the fog of war and the map? Do you know what it would take to edit that in to a replay? You have no idea do you? I'm seeing a trend... You apparently didn't understand what I was talking about. It's not edited into the replay of course. The PLU league (or whatever it is) uses the standard maps, but some of the FOW is removed, so you'll see the PLU sign. | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 12 2008 04:26 d1v wrote: Go to youtube.com, they're up there anyways, and it's not like that small Razer logo on the top left is really a viable ad.. You apparently didn't understand what I was talking about. It's not edited into the replay of course. The PLU league (or whatever it is) uses the standard maps, but some of the FOW is removed, so you'll see the PLU sign. oh ok. So have them replay the games and hopefully get the same results with maps they edited in enough advertisements that perhaps razer wont mind that TL.net after getting the money decided to back out on a signed contract and rework it based on the whim of some fucking random german in a blog? Get-fucking-real. | ||
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
VoDs? How the fuck do I sort them, let alone getting massive storage used up on my computer, it's just so much more clumsy than replays. I fully understand the commercial reasons for VoD and the secrecy of player's builds but traditionally, a foriegn BW tournament has been handing out replays. WWI and Blizzcon has all the replays released, for instance. A tournament is a fantastic way of getting replays because every top notch players' replay are all compacted together and it's something we cannot resist. Sure the op is bit uneducated on the matter but WTF are you guys thinking flaming him in his own blog. It's his place, like his idea, go for it, don't like it, GTFO. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
 I'm awesome that way. Who are you to defend him in HIS OWN BLOG? Let him have the chance to defend himself rofllflfl | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 03:29 gusbear wrote: It can be subjectively argued whether vods or replays are better for the viewer, but one thing is for sure, having the choice of both is better than one. But this isn't my point, I am arguing that the TSL gains a lot more exposure if they release reps as well and they should not think of it as a hindrance to their investment. I believe it is a win-win situation for both TSL (more exposure) and the viewers (no more whining about no replays). Only problem with that is people like me would be least interested in the VoDs and rather have soembody compile a .rar folder of replays for me. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 06:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote: oh I prefer to flame people in their own home I'm awesome that way. Who are you to defend him in HIS OWN BLOG? Let him have the chance to defend himself rofllflflI am merely saying you should not get drunk and puke over other people's lawn for amusement, this point should be clear. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 07:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Uh.. if that person was standing in their lawn barking "HEY, I'm a dumb fucking person!" I'd walk over, drunk or sober, and chat with em about it. If I puke at the same time so be it. Worse things have happened in lawn or not. If that's the case I would not waste my time with it. But if you have fun rolling in mud with the pigs, so be it. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On May 12 2008 06:54 evanthebouncy! wrote: Sure the op is bit uneducated on the matter but WTF are you guys thinking flaming him in his own blog. It's his place, like his idea, go for it, don't like it, GTFO. WHAT?? Posting something to the public in this manner without being willing to accept criticism from the public is one of the lamest moves one can make online. Especially if this public comment made is criticizing someone. Someone wanting to publicly criticize someone or something, while employing censorship (ie blogs with comments disabled) is a hypocrite and a fraud. It's been done many times by rather prominent figures, and is a nonsense decision. In this post I'm not criticizing the op for whatever opinion he may have. I'm criticizing YOU evan for being completely oblivious to this issue and having an opinion which to me is completely nonsense. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
You're comparing the kind of advertisement that gets placed in a school newspaper with a television advertisement, and a broadcast constantly showing the sponsors name. I think the sponsors would prefer the second one considering that they payed closer to $15,000 in sponsorship money. Do you know how many extra mouses they have to sell to make that money back in profits? Also, having the replays "exlusive" to the razer site- how exactly will that work? Will we sue gosugamers if they upload them to their site? Will we chase after every person that compiles a replay package? Will we stop person 1 from copying replays from person 2? Furthermore, we are trying to make a foreign starleague, with massive games, quality broadcasting, and the top players outside of Korea. It's taken each and everyone of us hundreds of hours to get this thing running. Why go through all that effort if you're all just going to download the replay pack? Then we could just make a ladder and then release all the replays, and not put in any effort at all. There's a thousand reasons why we're not releasing replays, starting with we're contractually obliged not to release them, and ending with this is our tournament, and we'd like you to experience it the way we planned it, to enjoy our hard work with us, and that means a vod. If you want to watch good players play sc, there are tons of replays around. If you want a starleague, come to the TSL. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 07:53 thedeadhaji wrote: WHAT?? Posting something to the public in this manner without being willing to accept criticism from the public is one of the lamest moves one can make online. Especially if this public comment made is criticizing someone. Someone wanting to publicly criticize someone or something, while employing censorship (ie blogs with comments disabled) is a hypocrite and a fraud. It's been done many times by rather prominent figures, and is a nonsense decision. In this post I'm not criticizing the op for whatever opinion he may have. I'm criticizing YOU evan for being completely oblivious to this issue and having an opinion which to me is completely nonsense. I was referring to flames and criticism that's not constructive. The ones that does not explain why the op's criticisms are wrong but merely jumps the bandwagon witch hunt. By no means I am against criticism, but I am against criticisms that have been delivered with malicious intents. I'm glad you put thoughts into your reply though and now to think of it maybe the TL.net blog is on the same level of publicity as a post in general and not something private. Should that be the case I will take back all my arguments. Cheers' Edit after some more thought: I think the main problem is the definition of blog and how personal it actually is. If it is a public criticism then it should be posted under general, to my understanding. The fact that he posted it the Blog section shows that he understands that his opinions are to be kept private and should only appeal a smaller audience that shared his opinions. I think it is why blog exists here to begin with: To give a place for you to dump all your silly rantings w/o being flamed to death. Update me where I went wrong with this logic. thx. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 08:46 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what made you think blogs were private? they are just as accessible as the general forum... Haha I thought you forgot about this thread :p but "A blog (an abridgment of the term web log) is a website, usually maintained by an individual, with regular entries of commentary, descriptions of events, or other material such as graphics or video. Entries are commonly displayed in reverse chronological order. "Blog" can also be used as a verb, meaning to maintain or add content to a blog. Many blogs provide commentary or news on a particular subject; others function as more personal online diaries. " -wiki | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
.doc file on your computer - private. I know pple who have written diaries in microsoft word and don't upload the contents online. That is private. There are blogs that are locked and are only visible to authorized friends. That, in spirit, is private as well. An entry created stipulating public access is not private and should not be treated as such by neither than creator nor the readers. Flaming comes with the territory of creating something public like this, like it or not. I don't necessarily condone such behavior, but at the same time it is to be expected and dealt with, especially when your entry is about something that will evoke such reactions. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 09:07 thedeadhaji wrote: blog (unlocked) - public .doc file on your computer - private. I know pple who have written diaries in microsoft word and don't upload the contents online. That is private. There are blogs that are locked and are only visible to authorized friends. That, in spirit, is private as well. An entry created stipulating public access is not private and should not be treated as such by neither than creator nor the readers. Flaming comes with the territory of creating something public like this, like it or not. I don't necessarily condone such behavior, but at the same time it is to be expected and dealt with, especially when your entry is about something that will evoke such reactions. fair enuf. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:54 gusbear wrote: I havent seen the VODs so im not sure what kind of advertising there is in them. Enough fucking said. I don't mean to be all aggressive, but if you have not watched it, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You really need to see it to have a clue. I think you're going to be very surprised by what you see. Also, like Diagomi said, you have no idea how much work is going into this to make it into a legitimate StarLeague. If you want your normal foreigner tournament with replay packs, there's plenty of them out there. We're here to create legendary games and legendary moments in a legitimate StarLeague. And as the Koreans have shown in their over half a decade of experience, VODs are what makes this on all levels, not simple replay packs that can be found anywhere. Where else can you have a camera that shows the audience one thing to keep everybody on the same page, with commentators keeping everybody on the same page, thus creating epic moments that everybody shares at the same time? How else do you really build that hype, build that tension, and build that fan following except with VODs? How else do you present it in a manner that even non-gamers might check out, as they usually won't go through the trouble of downloading the rep, installing the game, getting audio for replays, etc. How else do you create personalities and identification with the players of your league better than a VOD with interviews, etc (we don't have these now, but come on, it's our first one run by a volunteer team... who knows what'll happen later). If you release replays, it cheapens the value of the above. It takes away the uniqueness of it. It takes away the exclusiveness of it. It no longer becomes special. CocaCola OGN 2001 VODs are still extremely exciting for me to watch. Would they be as fun if they were replays? No, because all those things I mentioned above with the atmosphere, tension, etc is removed. Instead, I'd just be seeing outdated gameplay. But with a VOD, you capture it all and create legendary, universal memories. And THAT is how e-sports are going to move forward. It will move forward with things like VODs, not replays. If you want amateur, run-of-the mill foreigner competitions tailored only to the hardcore fans with absolutely no chance of real growth, stick with the old formula. If you want a professional level tournament with a possibility of becoming a foundation of a true esports league, watch the TSL. Enough said. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Not to beat a dead horse, but those of you who don't see the harm in releasing replays are very short-sighted and not looking at the big picture. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
Please watch the VODs and realize that we aren't just trying to pass you some automated replay with a sponsor mention here and there. There was huge amounts of production work put into it, providing graphics, information overlays and the much loved video introductions. During the games, you have a visual guide as well as several commentators to tell you their thoughts on the game. TSL Staff has put in large amounts of effort into the Broadcast/VODs, please respect that and watch them. What TSL is offering is not just a tournament full of games, it is an entire Broadcast and experience. Instead of a Starcraft player accidently discovering a TSL rep, we aim to allow the general public stumble upon a TSL VOD and be able to watch and enjoy with ease. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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gusbear
333 Posts
To put it simply, you say vods are what people want to see yet you are so convinced that replays will replace them. Im trying to say, if you released the replays, people who want to watch vods will still watch the vods. people who do not watch vods will still not watch vods. they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the main strength of replays over vods is their ease in distribution which is beneficial to the TSL. So what if the replay packs end up on another site? the game is still a TSL game and the guy who downloaded it will come to know of TL and Razer and maybe even go watch the vods for that special experience. There are ways to release replays so that everyone wins, such as a delayed release, and using custom maps with ads triggered at the start. This way, everyone who was going to watch the vods would have seen the vods already and replay users will have to wait a bit but at least they are satisfied (and exposed to more advertising), and good replays will bring more hits to the vods etc. | ||
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kefkalives
Australia1272 Posts
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:02 gusbear wrote: i think a lot of you are still missing the point i am trying to make. On one hand you are championing vods as being better for the fans with the excitement and atmosphere etc. And then you go on to say if you released replays no one would bother watching the vods and this contradicts your reasoning for vods. Have more confidence in the appeal of the vods please. To put it simply, you say vods are what people want to see yet you are so convinced that replays will replace them. Im trying to say, if you released the replays, people who want to watch vods will still watch the vods. people who do not watch vods will still not watch vods. they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the main strength of replays over vods is their ease in distribution which is beneficial to the TSL. So what if the replay packs end up on another site? the game is still a TSL game and the guy who downloaded it will come to know of TL and Razer and maybe even go watch the vods for that special experience. There are ways to release replays so that everyone wins, such as a delayed release, and using custom maps with ads triggered at the start. This way, everyone who was going to watch the vods would have seen the vods already and replay users will have to wait a bit but at least they are satisfied (and exposed to more advertising), and good replays will bring more hits to the vods etc. No. No. No. No. This will NOT benefit TSL at all. Period. That was my point. Regardless of advertising for Razer or whatever, releasing replays will take it a step backwards. It has nothing to do with confidence. It has to do with the fact that the TSL is so fucking awesome, we can draw every possible viewer using just VODs. And people will see those VODs. And people will slowly get cultured into one common experience, thus bringing together a real e-sports community. THAT is the goal. Releasing replays just makes it a normal tournament. This isn't a normal tournament. It's a fucking StarLeague. Comprende? If you fail to see why VODs are better for the progress of e-sports after all this, I have nothing left to say. Just keep blogging away senselessly. Be my guest. And go watch the games first before you reply. Hell doesn't matter. I give up already. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On May 12 2008 12:46 Mada_Jiang wrote: The initial post by Gusbear, was followed by a series of aggressive posts which I found was amazing. We are all adults here, why is it brothers, that we go straight to the personal attacks? Amazing... Don't say things to each other you wouldn't say to each other in real life face to face. Gusbear might be your boss or your business partner one day. It's a small world ^.^ Be nice to each other and to those who are angry and must resort to aggressive flames: peace be with you. Thanks, that's what I should've said. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:16 Klogon wrote: No. No. No. No. This will NOT benefit TSL at all. Period. That was my point. Regardless of advertising for Razer or whatever, releasing replays will take it a step backwards. It has nothing to do with confidence. It has to do with the fact that the TSL is so fucking awesome, we can draw every possible viewer using just VODs. And people will see those VODs. And people will slowly get cultured into one common experience, thus bringing together a real e-sports community. THAT is the goal. Releasing replays just makes it a normal tournament. This isn't a normal tournament. It's a fucking StarLeague. Comprende? If you fail to see why VODs are better for the progress of e-sports after all this, I have nothing left to say. Just keep blogging away senselessly. Be my guest. And go watch the games first before you reply. Hell doesn't matter. I give up already. What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Snipinpanda
United States1227 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:52 gusbear wrote: What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. 1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither WWI or WCG have sponsors(I suppose WWI could be blizzard, but they made the freaking game, so they wouldn't need it) 2) TSL does have its reasons for withholding replays, and a lot of it has to do with money. With VODs, you see the Razer tag and logo so much more, you can't achieve the same thing with replays. Teamliquid wants to give Razer good advertisement, otherwise Razer might not sponsor the next TSL. None of us want that. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
I think you're also totally missing my point that replays downplay the uniqueness, specialty, and awesomeness of the VOD experience. Period. When people watched Oov in his prime roll out with a million tanks totally out of nowhere because the camera didn't catch it, it was jawdropping. Nobody knew how the hell he did it. People got excited. Commentators were in awe. Fan girls went crazy. And you could just FEEL his opponent's thoughts of "OH SHIT!" as his forces stream rolled into the center. Needless to say, the fact that the replay for that game was not immediately released made that moment all the more incredible. It created a legend. A "macro-hack". A replay would have absolutely taken away a lot of the mystery and thus a lot of the hype. It just is not as marketable. And THAT is what I'm talking about. If people don't have times to watch all the games and it becomes an issue, high lights may become realistic in the far future. But right now, it's too bad. People without cable cannot watch OGN in Korea. People unwilling to pay cannot go watch the latest Blockbuster movie in theaters. People without money cannot afford to watch the hottest new Broadway show. Sure, coverage is important. And that's why we are trying to get the word out as much as possible. But when too much coverage cheapens the product and makes it less attractive to sponsors, TV contracts (this is the dream), and overall health and future direction of the industry, decisions need to be made and some viewers sacrificed. And that's exactly what the TSL did. Trust me, this is the right choice. EDIT: Yo, those big tournaments do have sponsors. Usually big ones like Samsung sponsor WCG. But thing is, a thing like WCG with a lot of exposure might turn people into gamers and thus a competitive "sport" of sorts, but with their system, not as likely into a spectator sport. EDIT2: And as far as time goes, soccer broadcasts take like 2 hours. If recorded, 90 minutes. Baseball games go longer. Football games can go for hours as well. If we just say two hours, and say the average SC game is 25 minutes, you could watch 5 games in that. That's one BO5 or two BO3s. So if you follow your favorite player, just as you'd follow your favorite team in soccer, you'd have time to watch one "matchup". And if you just follow a team or player but you don't have two hours to watch one week, you can watch high lights or read up match summaries/reports to see what happened. That's what normal sports spectators do as well. Welcome to spectating a sport. Welcome to spectating an e-sport. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:52 gusbear wrote: What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. Your earlier argument that replays would reach a larger audience than VODs is ridiculous. You ever see someone who doesn't play Starcraft install and watch replays? But have you ever seen someone who doesn't actively play watch VODs? There is no way that replays reach a larger audience. The mass appeal of youtube videos and downloadable matches with commentary and advertisements built in is significantly more legitimate, professional, and wide-ranging than a replay pack. The ads are more dynamic, eye catching, and stay with the viewer longer. You get "Razer TSL" repeated in your brain, from the intro, from the casters. It doesn't even compare to whatever you can build into a replay that everyone will change or ignore anyway. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. ...is exactly why we shouldn't release replays. Yes, there are huge differences between us and the OSL, nobody is contending that. You see us as some sort of cheap imitation, trying to copy a professional league. You are essentially saying "TSL is not the OSL, be more like the non-OSL tournaments. Know your place." But we don't see it that way. We dare to dream and aim higher. We see us as the start of something that could be big. Maybe we'll flame out, maybe we'll make it. But releasing replays like any other league is a step toward less professional tournaments and a step away from what we're aiming for. (By the way, using WCG as an example of a tournament we should emulate really undermines your credibility in every way. As does comparing the TSL to an invite tournament with like 8 players.) If you think sponsors will be happy with a simple fog of war "Razer" at the beginning of a replay that nobody will even pay attention to, or a replay named Razer_MondivsDreiven that will be renamed and repackaged in an instant, you are only fooling yourself. Many people have outlined the many reasons why VODs are superior for the credibility, longevity, and future of our league and the interests of our sponsor (and potential sponsors). Yet you still believe, even after watching the broadcasts, that releasing replays is a wise decision. We, and our sponsors, do not. Thank goodness you are not in charge of TSL2, because then our chances of getting future sponsorship would be about the same as your chances of ever possessing a TSL1 replay. | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
On May 12 2008 16:23 Mada_Jiang wrote: I dream that Blizzard would actually make SC2 replays to allow Ads together with a function that allows recording of commentry? Maybe even intermittent advertisments lol Would look exactly like VODs while still being a replay. Wouldn't that be awsome ^.^ no more needs for VODs. I don't want ads in replays that I'm trying to technically analyse -_-. That's what replays are there for. Vods are vods. Replays are replays. They're used for different purposes. I personally support the idea of vods only for TSL - for one, I agree with the reasoning of Klogon. For another, Manifesto said 'end of story'. When the owner of the site tells you it is the end of the story, it is end of story. Plus, they're contractually obliged not to release reps. I think they value Razer's contract more than your approval. On a tangentially related note, why would you even want to analyse the play of foreigners? They're all inferior to Koreans. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
My misconception is that the TSL was solely a project for the community i.e. sacrificing nothing to bring the best coverage to the fans. I would imagine this would mean being able to watch vods and then go look at the replays and have the ability to focus on other parts of the game and go "wow" all over again. Now i realise that the TSL is also aiming to become something bigger like a TV show in the future and in this case you feel vods are the only way to go, even if it means some fans will be dissapointed. fair enough. Taking this into account this hopefully will be my last rant: I don't think sponsors need more proof that the concept is viable, all they need to do is look at korean tv leagues. Before the TSL gets its own TV show, I think replays are still the best way of promoting competitive starcraft and they help increase the vod watching fanbase. As hotbid said, watching replays requires a starcraft installation. Well then, that should take a big chunk out of the fear that replays will steal viewership from vods. This would lend more credibility to my arguments: 1)VODs and replays are totally different, they complement rather than replace the other. 2)Some people have technical difficulties watching VODs or Replays(no sc installed), therefore its best to have both available. 3)Replays are easier to distribute, able to reach and draw in more uninformed/non-vod-watching people which would otherwise never know about the TSL. bnetTom: check out this replay its sick! bnetDick: holy shit where is this from? bnetTom: Babara starleague bnetDick: tell me more, do they have vods? 4)This is exactly how I would NOT react: OMG TSL releases VODs AND replays? It must be some random shitty tournament. 5)The TSL is AWESOME, you guys have done a great job, the VODs are insane! do you really think releasing a bunch of replays is going to change any of that? | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
On May 12 2008 17:23 gusbear wrote: 1)VODs and replays are totally different, they complement rather than replace the other. 2)Some people have technical difficulties watching VODs or Replays(no sc installed), therefore its best to have both available. 3)Replays are easier to distribute, able to reach and draw in more uninformed/non-vod-watching people which would otherwise never know about the TSL. bnetTom: check out this replay its sick! bnetDick: holy shit where is this from? bnetTom: Babara starleague bnetDick: tell me more, do they have vods? 4)This is exactly how I would NOT react: OMG TSL releases VODs AND replays? It must be some random shitty tournament. 5)The TSL is AWESOME, you guys have done a great job, the VODs are insane! do you really think releasing a bunch of replays is going to change any of that? 1) sure, they complement each other if the person watching it is trying to analyze it and extract data from it. but from a spectator's point of it, VODs are more people-friendly; you have an obs directing your attention to the important stuff, and commentators filling you in on what exactly is going on. 2) what technical difficulties? lack of a high-speed internet connection? 3) replays are indeed easier to distribute, but drawing in MORE (uninformed) people? i dont think theyll really care to find out what the TSL in the replay name/description means. bnetTom: check out this sick replay! bnetTim: okay! the end 4) this is exactly how i would NOT react: TSL live broadcasts and VOD releases? how lame. 5) perhaps you didnt read your own topic. go back and read the replies on why replays arent being released. Klogon made a really eloquent post just above yours. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Watch July vs Goodfriend Ever 2005 finals from the OGN cast. Now watch the leaked replay. Simply no comparison in terms of entertainment value, suspense, drama... the list goes on. The vod is a completely different (i.e. superior) experience, as many people with and without authority have said here. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
(fixing) | ||
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PePe QuiCoSE
Argentina1204 Posts
edit: wow, after reading gosugamers comments on Razor TSL i'm starting to understand where this come from. There is no real argument, just lazyness. | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
Please stop trying to argue about this with weak reasoning at best. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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itzme_petey
United States1400 Posts
Replays will not be released. It is part of our sponsorship deal. End of story. –manifesto Releasing reps means less VOD views. -SonuvBob Yes, there are huge differences between us and the OSL, nobody is contending that. You see us as some sort of cheap imitation, trying to copy a professional league. You are essentially saying "TSL is not the OSL, be more like the non-OSL tournaments. Know your place." But we don't see it that way. We dare to dream and aim higher. We see us as the start of something that could be big. – hotbid The reasons above were the most concrete reasons for not releasing replays. I don’t agree with any of them other than the contractual agreement reason. Here is why: Releasing replays after one or more months of finals broadcast would not hurt viewer numbers. Viewers who love the commentary and broadcast/camera work will watch the VODS during live stream regardless. I admit, a VOD and replay are two different experiences. Released at correct times and in correct format (maps in replays have sponsor ads embedded in them) VODS and replays complement each other. Replays to such a great tournament have value. Leverage it correctly, maybe by releasing them a week or so before the next TSL to get people stirred up and excited about the next TSL tournament. The staff went through the effort to create a deliverable such as VODS. I appreciate the hard work TSL staff puts in. I understand the perspective of professionalizing TSL and letting it take off. Releasing replays has always been a foreign community trait. Why not take the best of both worlds and create something new, and not just a carbon copy of OSL/MSL. Sponsors will come as long as there is a community watching your project. By not releasing replays, you risk alienating the community. This is not a project for profit; this is a project for the community. TSL will only get as big as long as it does not turn its back on the foreign community. To me, not releasing replays is a slap in the face. What makes TSL special is the sense of community behind it. However, its starting to seem like a product that sponsors have by the leash. Even without such a large sum of prize money, people will still play and watch. Correct me if im wrong, but the prize money was already paid for before Razer stepped in. Razer should have very little say in anything you guys do. My impression from all the talk about sponsorship money is that TSL is bending backwards to please the sponsors that they never needed. Whatever is decided next TSL, I hope the staff decides to ultimately release the replays. A gesture that tells the community that TSL is for foreigners by foreigners. | ||
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Saline
United States73 Posts
I love Starcraft, and I play it for fun. I'm not going to pay people money for it, and I'm not going to go out of my way to get other people to play. I've been playing for a long time, it's pretty dear to me (still my favorite game after what, ten years?), and I still play pretty actively. I think I'm a pretty typical player. I follow some of the tournaments, I know the names of the big progamers and some of the top non-Korean foreign gamers. I like watching their games because it helps me improve. I can watch with awe at their astounding micro and I can also learn from their tactics. That being said, I have always hated VODs, and most of the other people I talk to do as well. When I watch a VOD, I don't give one flying sh*t about the audience. I don't care if people are screaming (hell, I can't understand them anyway, I only speak English!)--I can feel the anticipation myself. Most of the observers for VODs are pretty terrible anyway, moving away to watch a probe mining when a huge battle with plague, swarm, maelstrom, reavers, and corsairs are battling away for their lives. I watch a VOD and I think "Crap! Move your mouse over so I can see what's happening over there!" The only difference between a VOD and a replay for me is that VODs are terrible quality and I have no control over what part of the game I'm seeing, as well as the fact that I can't control the speed. I'm not going to donate to any of the sponsors, I'm not going to buy their products, and I'm not going to go through the huge trouble of downloading enormous files just to see a game. And I think that the vast majority of SC players are the same way. I like Starcraft because of the game itself, not because of the politics surrounding; I couldn't care less about that. If anything, I would follow these tournaments MUCH more closely with replays, because then I could actually WATCH games between between great world-class players without feeling confined to crappy quality videos over which I have no control. If you want my suggestion (assuming that VODs will continue to replace replays), I'll give it regardless: give us some first-person VODs played from the actual gamers' machines, come up with some hack to see more of the map from an observers point of view, or release replays with ads in them! | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
In addition if you just want to see reps of the players themselves but not in the tourney itself they released a huge rep pack with 100s of reps from every player. edit: After reading your post again, you do realize the commentary is in English right? And I guess they could make a watermarked map that has the Razer logo sporadically in it and that way Razer still gets publicity or w/e and people get their reps but that's their call to make not yours. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
However, there are already nearly 10,000 replays from the TSL. The point of replays to me is to improve your game, and the point of VODs is mostly entertainment, but also game improving. There are already so many reps that offer opportunities to be entertained / improve your game that I don't think the release of the reps from RO16+ is even a big deal, either way. | ||
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