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TSL Replays - Page 3
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On May 12 2008 06:54 evanthebouncy! wrote: Sure the op is bit uneducated on the matter but WTF are you guys thinking flaming him in his own blog. It's his place, like his idea, go for it, don't like it, GTFO. WHAT?? Posting something to the public in this manner without being willing to accept criticism from the public is one of the lamest moves one can make online. Especially if this public comment made is criticizing someone. Someone wanting to publicly criticize someone or something, while employing censorship (ie blogs with comments disabled) is a hypocrite and a fraud. It's been done many times by rather prominent figures, and is a nonsense decision. In this post I'm not criticizing the op for whatever opinion he may have. I'm criticizing YOU evan for being completely oblivious to this issue and having an opinion which to me is completely nonsense. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
You're comparing the kind of advertisement that gets placed in a school newspaper with a television advertisement, and a broadcast constantly showing the sponsors name. I think the sponsors would prefer the second one considering that they payed closer to $15,000 in sponsorship money. Do you know how many extra mouses they have to sell to make that money back in profits? Also, having the replays "exlusive" to the razer site- how exactly will that work? Will we sue gosugamers if they upload them to their site? Will we chase after every person that compiles a replay package? Will we stop person 1 from copying replays from person 2? Furthermore, we are trying to make a foreign starleague, with massive games, quality broadcasting, and the top players outside of Korea. It's taken each and everyone of us hundreds of hours to get this thing running. Why go through all that effort if you're all just going to download the replay pack? Then we could just make a ladder and then release all the replays, and not put in any effort at all. There's a thousand reasons why we're not releasing replays, starting with we're contractually obliged not to release them, and ending with this is our tournament, and we'd like you to experience it the way we planned it, to enjoy our hard work with us, and that means a vod. If you want to watch good players play sc, there are tons of replays around. If you want a starleague, come to the TSL. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On May 12 2008 07:53 thedeadhaji wrote: WHAT?? Posting something to the public in this manner without being willing to accept criticism from the public is one of the lamest moves one can make online. Especially if this public comment made is criticizing someone. Someone wanting to publicly criticize someone or something, while employing censorship (ie blogs with comments disabled) is a hypocrite and a fraud. It's been done many times by rather prominent figures, and is a nonsense decision. In this post I'm not criticizing the op for whatever opinion he may have. I'm criticizing YOU evan for being completely oblivious to this issue and having an opinion which to me is completely nonsense. I was referring to flames and criticism that's not constructive. The ones that does not explain why the op's criticisms are wrong but merely jumps the bandwagon witch hunt. By no means I am against criticism, but I am against criticisms that have been delivered with malicious intents. I'm glad you put thoughts into your reply though and now to think of it maybe the TL.net blog is on the same level of publicity as a post in general and not something private. Should that be the case I will take back all my arguments. Cheers' Edit after some more thought: I think the main problem is the definition of blog and how personal it actually is. If it is a public criticism then it should be posted under general, to my understanding. The fact that he posted it the Blog section shows that he understands that his opinions are to be kept private and should only appeal a smaller audience that shared his opinions. I think it is why blog exists here to begin with: To give a place for you to dump all your silly rantings w/o being flamed to death. Update me where I went wrong with this logic. thx. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On May 12 2008 08:46 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what made you think blogs were private? they are just as accessible as the general forum... Haha I thought you forgot about this thread :p but "A blog (an abridgment of the term web log) is a website, usually maintained by an individual, with regular entries of commentary, descriptions of events, or other material such as graphics or video. Entries are commonly displayed in reverse chronological order. "Blog" can also be used as a verb, meaning to maintain or add content to a blog. Many blogs provide commentary or news on a particular subject; others function as more personal online diaries. " -wiki | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
.doc file on your computer - private. I know pple who have written diaries in microsoft word and don't upload the contents online. That is private. There are blogs that are locked and are only visible to authorized friends. That, in spirit, is private as well. An entry created stipulating public access is not private and should not be treated as such by neither than creator nor the readers. Flaming comes with the territory of creating something public like this, like it or not. I don't necessarily condone such behavior, but at the same time it is to be expected and dealt with, especially when your entry is about something that will evoke such reactions. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On May 12 2008 09:07 thedeadhaji wrote: blog (unlocked) - public .doc file on your computer - private. I know pple who have written diaries in microsoft word and don't upload the contents online. That is private. There are blogs that are locked and are only visible to authorized friends. That, in spirit, is private as well. An entry created stipulating public access is not private and should not be treated as such by neither than creator nor the readers. Flaming comes with the territory of creating something public like this, like it or not. I don't necessarily condone such behavior, but at the same time it is to be expected and dealt with, especially when your entry is about something that will evoke such reactions. fair enuf. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On May 12 2008 02:54 gusbear wrote: I havent seen the VODs so im not sure what kind of advertising there is in them. Enough fucking said. I don't mean to be all aggressive, but if you have not watched it, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You really need to see it to have a clue. I think you're going to be very surprised by what you see. Also, like Diagomi said, you have no idea how much work is going into this to make it into a legitimate StarLeague. If you want your normal foreigner tournament with replay packs, there's plenty of them out there. We're here to create legendary games and legendary moments in a legitimate StarLeague. And as the Koreans have shown in their over half a decade of experience, VODs are what makes this on all levels, not simple replay packs that can be found anywhere. Where else can you have a camera that shows the audience one thing to keep everybody on the same page, with commentators keeping everybody on the same page, thus creating epic moments that everybody shares at the same time? How else do you really build that hype, build that tension, and build that fan following except with VODs? How else do you present it in a manner that even non-gamers might check out, as they usually won't go through the trouble of downloading the rep, installing the game, getting audio for replays, etc. How else do you create personalities and identification with the players of your league better than a VOD with interviews, etc (we don't have these now, but come on, it's our first one run by a volunteer team... who knows what'll happen later). If you release replays, it cheapens the value of the above. It takes away the uniqueness of it. It takes away the exclusiveness of it. It no longer becomes special. CocaCola OGN 2001 VODs are still extremely exciting for me to watch. Would they be as fun if they were replays? No, because all those things I mentioned above with the atmosphere, tension, etc is removed. Instead, I'd just be seeing outdated gameplay. But with a VOD, you capture it all and create legendary, universal memories. And THAT is how e-sports are going to move forward. It will move forward with things like VODs, not replays. If you want amateur, run-of-the mill foreigner competitions tailored only to the hardcore fans with absolutely no chance of real growth, stick with the old formula. If you want a professional level tournament with a possibility of becoming a foundation of a true esports league, watch the TSL. Enough said. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
Not to beat a dead horse, but those of you who don't see the harm in releasing replays are very short-sighted and not looking at the big picture. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
Please watch the VODs and realize that we aren't just trying to pass you some automated replay with a sponsor mention here and there. There was huge amounts of production work put into it, providing graphics, information overlays and the much loved video introductions. During the games, you have a visual guide as well as several commentators to tell you their thoughts on the game. TSL Staff has put in large amounts of effort into the Broadcast/VODs, please respect that and watch them. What TSL is offering is not just a tournament full of games, it is an entire Broadcast and experience. Instead of a Starcraft player accidently discovering a TSL rep, we aim to allow the general public stumble upon a TSL VOD and be able to watch and enjoy with ease. | ||
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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gusbear
333 Posts
To put it simply, you say vods are what people want to see yet you are so convinced that replays will replace them. Im trying to say, if you released the replays, people who want to watch vods will still watch the vods. people who do not watch vods will still not watch vods. they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the main strength of replays over vods is their ease in distribution which is beneficial to the TSL. So what if the replay packs end up on another site? the game is still a TSL game and the guy who downloaded it will come to know of TL and Razer and maybe even go watch the vods for that special experience. There are ways to release replays so that everyone wins, such as a delayed release, and using custom maps with ads triggered at the start. This way, everyone who was going to watch the vods would have seen the vods already and replay users will have to wait a bit but at least they are satisfied (and exposed to more advertising), and good replays will bring more hits to the vods etc. | ||
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kefkalives
Australia1272 Posts
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Mada_Jiang
Australia236 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:02 gusbear wrote: i think a lot of you are still missing the point i am trying to make. On one hand you are championing vods as being better for the fans with the excitement and atmosphere etc. And then you go on to say if you released replays no one would bother watching the vods and this contradicts your reasoning for vods. Have more confidence in the appeal of the vods please. To put it simply, you say vods are what people want to see yet you are so convinced that replays will replace them. Im trying to say, if you released the replays, people who want to watch vods will still watch the vods. people who do not watch vods will still not watch vods. they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the main strength of replays over vods is their ease in distribution which is beneficial to the TSL. So what if the replay packs end up on another site? the game is still a TSL game and the guy who downloaded it will come to know of TL and Razer and maybe even go watch the vods for that special experience. There are ways to release replays so that everyone wins, such as a delayed release, and using custom maps with ads triggered at the start. This way, everyone who was going to watch the vods would have seen the vods already and replay users will have to wait a bit but at least they are satisfied (and exposed to more advertising), and good replays will bring more hits to the vods etc. No. No. No. No. This will NOT benefit TSL at all. Period. That was my point. Regardless of advertising for Razer or whatever, releasing replays will take it a step backwards. It has nothing to do with confidence. It has to do with the fact that the TSL is so fucking awesome, we can draw every possible viewer using just VODs. And people will see those VODs. And people will slowly get cultured into one common experience, thus bringing together a real e-sports community. THAT is the goal. Releasing replays just makes it a normal tournament. This isn't a normal tournament. It's a fucking StarLeague. Comprende? If you fail to see why VODs are better for the progress of e-sports after all this, I have nothing left to say. Just keep blogging away senselessly. Be my guest. And go watch the games first before you reply. Hell doesn't matter. I give up already. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On May 12 2008 12:46 Mada_Jiang wrote: The initial post by Gusbear, was followed by a series of aggressive posts which I found was amazing. We are all adults here, why is it brothers, that we go straight to the personal attacks? Amazing... Don't say things to each other you wouldn't say to each other in real life face to face. Gusbear might be your boss or your business partner one day. It's a small world ^.^ Be nice to each other and to those who are angry and must resort to aggressive flames: peace be with you. Thanks, that's what I should've said. | ||
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gusbear
333 Posts
On May 12 2008 15:16 Klogon wrote: No. No. No. No. This will NOT benefit TSL at all. Period. That was my point. Regardless of advertising for Razer or whatever, releasing replays will take it a step backwards. It has nothing to do with confidence. It has to do with the fact that the TSL is so fucking awesome, we can draw every possible viewer using just VODs. And people will see those VODs. And people will slowly get cultured into one common experience, thus bringing together a real e-sports community. THAT is the goal. Releasing replays just makes it a normal tournament. This isn't a normal tournament. It's a fucking StarLeague. Comprende? If you fail to see why VODs are better for the progress of e-sports after all this, I have nothing left to say. Just keep blogging away senselessly. Be my guest. And go watch the games first before you reply. Hell doesn't matter. I give up already. What about people with technical difficulties, 56k modem, limited bandwidth plans. Or how about the people who just do not have the time to watch the games on normal speed. People who would never watch the VODs no matter how awesome they are, at least give them something right? Why does releasing replays make the league less legit? Its a step forward in coverage. Unless you mean you are just copying korean starleagues down to every last detail just because, even though TSL does not share their reasons for withholding replays. In which case I would argue the huge differences between an online league held by a community site and a league by TV channels with real professional gamers. Big events (aka non-normal tournaments) do have vods AND replays, for example WCG and WWI. P.S. I did manage to catch 4 vods from day 2, they were like you said AWESOME, but im not going to talk about them since i dont think it is relevant to any of this. | ||
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