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My wife and I were very surprised upon moving to Finland that despite how liberal it is abortion is actually relatively rare...
Turns out government aid for ALL children makes keeping an otherwise unplanned child a more popular choice.
This topic makes me realize that I don't know if child support from the father is even an issue here... (will have to look into it.)
On November 27 2014 19:09 Yorbon wrote:
I was thinking about this; what about pregnancy after a man is raped by a woman?
Still the woman's body and choice. Probably more a matter of if the child goes into foster care if the father doesn't want custody (assuming a rape conviction with jail time takes place).
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On November 27 2014 18:35 SatedSC2 wrote:
ITT: Lots of people who think that contraception is 100% effective.
Pulling-out master race reporting in.
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On November 27 2014 13:09 lichter wrote:
don't be a fool; wrap your tool
and if she gets pregnant anyway? the man deserves to be weighed down for 18 years?
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On November 27 2014 20:44 Espers wrote:and if she gets pregnant anyway? the man deserves to be weighed down for 18 years?
That's the discussion at hand.
Can we handicap a man into paying child support for a child he didn't really want to have? Accidents happen, the women is as much responsible for the child as the man. But if it is her decision A) to keep the child and B) if the father has to pay support. After conception, in some countries, the man loses every right to decide his own future.
I've heard multiple stories of mothers who are lazy and live mostly off the fathers' money.
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Well, as much as I understand the issue at hand and the pain and burden it can cause, those are not good times to make claims to our rights, as men :/
Lest you want to be eaten alive by bloodthirsty feminists. So better buckle up, put your helmets on, cover yourself, or whatever metaphor you want to use, and pray it doesn't go haywire.
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A man should have at least a vote for keeping the child. The unfair point is that if a woman gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion, there's nothing the father can do to prevent her doing it (in Germany). But that's a really complicated discussion with lots and lots of difficulties.
In general it's rather easy: you do not want to become a father, use a condom. If it happens, take responsibility.
I did not use a condom and have a daughter now - and I can't say I'm unhappy  . Once you get the idea that with a child everything changes and do not judge those changes, you're fine. Because "everything changes" just means that "everything gets different", but it doesn't get better or worse. You just start facing new things and change your priorities. But that's nothing you need to be afraid of.
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This topic has come up a few times before but the OP did not put it across correctly. Some refer to it as a "financial abortion" .
This is the breakdown and why people have had this discussion. The discussion is held in a controlled environment where a abortion or birth would NOT hurt the mother in any way and on the assumption that abortion is justified and legal under all circumstances. Children are conceived and born under four general circumstances.
1. Both people consent, women falls pregnant, both parties wish to keep the child. ----> Best case, happy ending.
2. Both people consent, women falls pregnant, neither parties want the baby. ----> Abortion, happy ending for both parties.
Now comes the grey area.
3. Both people consent, women falls pregnant, women wishes to have the child, man doesn't ------> Man forced to pay child care.
Now if the child was conceived by rape of the MAN, this is totally unethical and has just happened to a man in the states. Forced to pay for a child he has never met and was conceived when he was raped. Also what if the women for example lied about birth control?
4. Both people consent, women falls pregnant, man wishes to keep the child, women doesn't. ---------> Baby aborted, man left heart broken.
Now of course in this situation, its the women choice if she keeps it and the man shouldn't have a say in it. However this leaves inequality between the sexes and is where the idea of the "finical abortion" comes in.
Obviously NO WOMEN should be forced to have a abortion or give birth under ANY circumstances. The idea of a financial abortion, gives the man in scenario three a chance to opt out before the legal abortion limit. In this case he gives up all rights, becoming a sperm donor and will not have to pay child fees. This also allows a women to make a personal informed decision.
In the real world things are more complex than this, I will not share my personal opinion this is just a larger rundown of the OP's main point.
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On November 27 2014 22:22 ZenithM wrote:
Well, as much as I understand the issue at hand and the pain and burden it can cause, those are not good times to make claims to our rights, as men :/
Lest you want to be eaten alive by bloodthirsty feminists. So better buckle up, put your helmets on, cover yourself, or whatever metaphor you want to use, and pray it doesn't go haywire.
Meh, what are they going to do, protest me to death on Tumblr? Sometimes you have to be honest and bring up new aspects to a problem. It might be that men are privileged in some if not most areas, but that doesn't make our grievances in some aspects of our lives any less real.
And to say that our grievances are counterbalanced by our advantages would be insulting to say the least.
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Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are.
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On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are.
I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all.
Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things.
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On November 27 2014 11:03 firehand101 wrote:
Wouldn't it be fair to give them a say also?
No. Use a condom or just keep your dick out of people you can get pregnant.
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On November 28 2014 01:11 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are. I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all. Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things.
Unexpected =/= unexpectable
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I am 100% in favor of the Father's right to do a "financial abortion". If a woman has the right to decide whatever or not she wants to become a parent, so should a man.
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On November 28 2014 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:11 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are. I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all. Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things. Unexpected =/= unexpectable
And that's a totally unrealistic way to look at life, honestly. Accidents happen, you have to consider what happens after. It's so stupidly simplistic to just say "prevention is everything, nothing else matters".
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On November 28 2014 01:37 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2014 01:11 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are. I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all. Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things. Unexpected =/= unexpectable And that's a totally unrealistic way to look at life, honestly. Accidents happen, you have to consider what happens after. It's so stupidly simplistic to just say "prevention is everything, nothing else matters".
prevention =/= communication
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The people who make the rules (i.e. governments, society) are more concerned with the well-being of the newborn child than whether the father feels hard done by.
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On November 28 2014 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:37 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2014 01:11 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are. I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all. Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things. Unexpected =/= unexpectable And that's a totally unrealistic way to look at life, honestly. Accidents happen, you have to consider what happens after. It's so stupidly simplistic to just say "prevention is everything, nothing else matters". prevention =/= communication
No... but the point is the effect so communication acts as prevention... I mean that's obvious... Based on your last 2 answers I'm guessing you're probably not worth my time though, or anyone's time really.
Sarcasm in your first post, then dumb one liners containing two words each... It's fucking sad that this has become acceptable on forums. Step up your game or go back to 4chan where you belong.
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On November 28 2014 01:03 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 22:22 ZenithM wrote:
Well, as much as I understand the issue at hand and the pain and burden it can cause, those are not good times to make claims to our rights, as men :/
Lest you want to be eaten alive by bloodthirsty feminists. So better buckle up, put your helmets on, cover yourself, or whatever metaphor you want to use, and pray it doesn't go haywire. Meh, what are they going to do, protest me to death on Tumblr? Sometimes you have to be honest and bring up new aspects to a problem. It might be that men are privileged in some if not most areas, but that doesn't make our grievances in some aspects of our lives any less real. And to say that our grievances are counterbalanced by our advantages would be insulting to say the least.
Most feminist trends of thought actually just say that: we don't have the right to even voice our grievances, after dominating for so long in gender roles, and because our grievances are nothing compared to what women endure.
It sounds silly, but I'm 100% you would have every feminist lobby and whatnot on your ass if you were to express the idea that a man has a say in whether or not the abortion should happen / he should help raise the child. And I'm sure it would actually significantly impede any real/legal discussion.
Edit: Also Nebuchad:
Arguing =/= trolling
;D
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On November 28 2014 02:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:03 Djzapz wrote:On November 27 2014 22:22 ZenithM wrote:
Well, as much as I understand the issue at hand and the pain and burden it can cause, those are not good times to make claims to our rights, as men :/
Lest you want to be eaten alive by bloodthirsty feminists. So better buckle up, put your helmets on, cover yourself, or whatever metaphor you want to use, and pray it doesn't go haywire. Meh, what are they going to do, protest me to death on Tumblr? Sometimes you have to be honest and bring up new aspects to a problem. It might be that men are privileged in some if not most areas, but that doesn't make our grievances in some aspects of our lives any less real. And to say that our grievances are counterbalanced by our advantages would be insulting to say the least. Most feminist trends of thought actually just say that: we don't have the right to even voice our grievances, after dominating for so long in gender roles, and because our grievances are nothing compared to what women endure. It sounds silly, but I'm 100% you would have every feminist lobby and whatnot on your ass if you were to express the idea that a man has a say in whether or not the abortion should happen / he should help raise the child. And I'm sure it would actually significantly impede any real/legal discussion.
I'm not arguing that men should have a say on whether or not an abortion should happen, I'm strongly opposed to that idea. I'm saying that we should be able to express our grievances though.
The problem is that there are reasonable ways to voice our grievances and many MRA groups get shit on by feminists because they go about it in absurd and unreasonable ways. But I think I tend to be reasonable.
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On November 28 2014 02:00 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2014 01:37 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2014 01:11 Djzapz wrote:On November 28 2014 01:10 Nebuchad wrote:
Sometimes I wish women were like people that we could actually talk to, so that couples could, I don't know, decide beforehand whether they want a child or not, and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy.
Oh, wait. They are. I like your reasoning. Also rainbows and unicorns it's like disneyworld in dat noggin y'all. Edit: To make myself clear, abortion is often something that happens because of unexpected events. You can't plan unplanned things. Unexpected =/= unexpectable And that's a totally unrealistic way to look at life, honestly. Accidents happen, you have to consider what happens after. It's so stupidly simplistic to just say "prevention is everything, nothing else matters". prevention =/= communication No... but the point is the effect so communication acts as prevention... I mean that's obvious... Based on your last 2 answers I'm guessing you're probably not worth my time though, or anyone's time really. Sarcasm in your first post, then dumb one liners containing two words each... It's fucking sad that this has become acceptable on forums.
Look, it's not that hard. Obviously the fact that a girl can decide to keep a child whether you want it or not is a big concern to you. So talk to said girl about it before you have sex with her. If you don't like the answer, don't put yourself in the situation.
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EPT
