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On October 19 2013 03:50 Snorkle wrote:
I don't care how good or bad they are it is immensely frustrating when someone on your team can't understand what you are saying and you have no idea what they are saying and what is even worse is when I solo que into a party of 3 or more BR's screaming in Portuguese over voice chat. I can either mute them and cut off any possible communication with my team or suffer them yelling Portuguese obscenities.
But those guys are just dicks. The point I'm making is that them being Brazilian is neither here nor there. It's not excusing dickish behaviour, it's just pointing out a few things. If someone acts like a dick, it doesn't matter where they are from - they're just a straight up DICK. (ps, I am a huge dick)
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 19 2013 03:59 PyrionFlax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 03:50 Snorkle wrote:
I don't care how good or bad they are it is immensely frustrating when someone on your team can't understand what you are saying and you have no idea what they are saying and what is even worse is when I solo que into a party of 3 or more BR's screaming in Portuguese over voice chat. I can either mute them and cut off any possible communication with my team or suffer them yelling Portuguese obscenities. But those guys are just dicks. The point I'm making is that them being Brazilian is neither here nor there. It's not excusing dickish behaviour, it's just pointing out a few things. If someone acts like a dick, it doesn't matter where they are from - they're just a straight up DICK. (ps, I am a huge dick)
The frustrating thing about that behaviour is not that they're shouting but that neither party can understand the other.
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First of all dota's not most popular in USA at all. For example, US has only 1% more players than Ukraine alone, which is an infinitely smaller country. If you scale that down in terms of popularity, dota's a lot more popular in many countries in Europe than the US. Probably even than in Brazil. Second, if you think a russian/brazilian nut has only a 50% chance of being bad, maybe you're considering solo mid 0-7 into 35 min naked radiance bloodseeker legit. Out of my ~2500 games (and many others') it's more like 90% chance to be bad. And that's a number that not even their massive player base can't excuse. Even if you manage to convince anyone with this post, a very likely scenario is: "oh, PFlax is right, i've been such a douche all this time => proceeds to queue on EU server => runs into the above-mentioned bloodseeker => gg"
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On October 19 2013 04:01 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 03:59 PyrionFlax wrote:On October 19 2013 03:50 Snorkle wrote:
I don't care how good or bad they are it is immensely frustrating when someone on your team can't understand what you are saying and you have no idea what they are saying and what is even worse is when I solo que into a party of 3 or more BR's screaming in Portuguese over voice chat. I can either mute them and cut off any possible communication with my team or suffer them yelling Portuguese obscenities. But those guys are just dicks. The point I'm making is that them being Brazilian is neither here nor there. It's not excusing dickish behaviour, it's just pointing out a few things. If someone acts like a dick, it doesn't matter where they are from - they're just a straight up DICK. (ps, I am a huge dick) The frustrating thing about that behaviour is not that they're shouting but that neither party can understand the other.
I've made some pretty good doto friends through shouting matches (Where we all speak the same language). Have yet to make a doto friend who speaks a different language yet...
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
this was well put, thank you for doing it
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Russian or not, I consider it an act of respect to at least try to communicate with your team with what is supposed to be the international language. Last time I checked, english was taught in most non ex USSR countries at school, and russian was not.
I'm not a native english speaker and my english isn't good, still it seems natural to me to speak english on the internet when I'm not sure I'm only with people that speak French.
You can't compare France to Russia in size, but still, nobody learns Russian in europe except in the eastern countries, while I guess Russians get english classes. So I'd expect people to try and speak basic english in online games.
But yeah, generalizing sucks, Russia is far from having the asshole monopoly, and people that seriously point at russians as being a problem are dumbasses. The only thing that really annoys me is playing with people who don't seem to even try to communicate with you, and keep shouting cyrillic stuff in their microphone. 'Cause I also played with russians that spoke english (not even wrote, spoke), played great and were awesome. So at least writing a bit shouldn't be too much to ask.
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I've played about 1500 games of dota 2 and not a single time have I ever been screamed at in french, german, turkish, italian or english. English is the most spoken language on EU west and still russian rage moments are far more common. Any half way intelligent person knows this isn't because of these people being russian. It's individuals acting extremely badly and without respect for their fellow players. Well you don't treat these individuals with respect. You scorn and ostricize them until they've learned to play nice. Or you tell them to get the fuck out and go back to their own playground.
My bottom line is: We shouldn't be judgemental against russians for what the worst specimens of their society get up to. But we shouldn't accept this behaviour either. I think it's fine to show clearly that you don't aproove of bad behaviour including trolling, raging and spamming.
I think most people go out of their minds with anger because there are currently a russian server and an eastern european server. These are servers where russian is the predominately spoken language. If you have any respect for the swedes or the germans or the french or whatever you will not come into a game on EU west and YELL in russian. Don't invade other people's territories for your own amusement. If you don't know the standard language spoken on that server, stay quiet and try to communicate in other ways. Don't yell in the in game microphone.
For the record, I've enjoyed playing with well behaved and skilled russians many times (probably many more than I know of because they don't speak up). There is a lot of positives coming out of russian dota. Even in pub games! 
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All other considerations aside, having people on your team who don't speak the same language is a major hindrance. The calculation should really be 50% of people are bad and now tack on an extra ~25% for problems caused not by necessarily being bad but because you can't communicate. Furthermore, if you're one of these Russians/Brazilians and you're surrounded mostly by people speaking another language, nobody can tell you how to improve so that just increases your chances of remaining awful forever.
My real question is why does this happen? Why are there Russians on the NA East server? Is the Brazilian server empty (assuming there is one)?
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What about language filters?
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Is this blog supposed to change my mind about people from Russian and Brazil?
On October 19 2013 03:50 Snorkle wrote:
I don't care how good or bad they are it is immensely frustrating when someone on your team can't understand what you are saying and you have no idea what they are saying and what is even worse is when I solo que into a party of 3 or more BR's screaming in Portuguese over voice chat. I can either mute them and cut off any possible communication with my team or suffer them yelling Portuguese obscenities.
Exactly... This is it... This is why this blog changes nothing.
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This post completely misses the point that Brazilians are in my games when I don't have Spanish or Portuguese languages set on. Even if they can speak English, a majority of what they speak is their language.
We're not xenophobic, we just want to play with english speakers
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Language barrier is probably the biggest deterrent for me from doing any solo que.
Well over 35% of the time I get placed in with more than 2 non-English speakers, all of whom seem to keep their mics 1 mm from their mouths.
I almost miss cs 1.6 servers.
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
On October 19 2013 04:42 FrickenHamster wrote:
This post completely misses the point that Brazilians are in my games when I don't have Spanish or Portuguese languages set on. Even if they can speak English, a majority of what they speak is their language.
We're not xenophobic, we just want to play with english speakers
"I like other races and peoples who may or may not speak other languages, but not when I'm actually confronted with them in an international game on the internet. I wish they would stick to their own kind."
+ Show Spoiler +
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Yeah you can't really go saying that everyone who complains about teammates queuing for a server whose language they don't speak as being "Xenophobic" when no one is concerned about the actual nationality. It's the language that causes problems, and no amount of self-righteous derogatory blog posts is going to make me happily accept when our team is built to hinge on one guy's success and the most he can say is gurgles, whistles, and unreadable text.
On October 19 2013 04:34 Zealos wrote:
What about language filters?
What about language filters? They're a helpful, innovative solution to prevent language incompatibilities with ignorant, bigoted English speakers. Right?
On October 19 2013 04:46 itsjustatank wrote:"I like other races and peoples who may or may not speak other languages, but not when I'm actually confronted with them in an international game on the internet. I wish they would stick to their own kind." + Show Spoiler +
Strawman harder, when someone is being racist because they don't want to be around other groups, that's their own psyche. Anything uncomfortable or problematic with having to be around "colored" people is an entirely emotional response from the bigot.
When someone throws a game because they can't speak or be spoken to, that inconveniences all parties involved in an objective, measurable way.
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
You can go ahead and justify your latent racism, in your own way. Your argument relies on the premise that all people who are non-English speakers will necessarily be people who "throw" games.
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On October 19 2013 04:57 itsjustatank wrote:
You can go ahead and justify your latent racism, in your own way. Your argument relies on the premise that all people who are non-English speakers will necessarily be people who "throw" games.
No one's being racist. If a blond haired, blue-eyed man of hearty English stock died splitpushing when we were all telling him that the enemy team is coming because he only speaks with gurgled moans and pings, we'd be addressing it just as often. Granted, we'd not have a term for it, but writing off everyone who has games disrupted because 40% of the team can't be communicated with as "racist" is demonizing a legitimate problem. A problem, mind you, that the players were told was in their ability to control, via filters, and we all know what good those did.
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
On October 19 2013 05:05 Kmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 04:57 itsjustatank wrote:
You can go ahead and justify your latent racism, in your own way. Your argument relies on the premise that all people who are non-English speakers will necessarily be people who "throw" games. No one's being racist. If a blond haired, blue-eyed man of hearty English stock died splitpushing when we were all telling him that the enemy team is coming because he only speaks with gurgled moans and pings, we'd be addressing it just as often. Granted, we'd not have a term for it, but writing off everyone who has games disrupted because 40% of the team can't be communicated with as "racist" is demonizing a legitimate problem. A problem, mind you, that the players were told was in their ability to control, via filters, and we all know what good those did.
And this justifies the speech isolated in the OP as problematic? We are now back to the OP and my interpretation of a post in this thread, which on-point answers your bigoted response.
Gameplay issues can be dealt with in their own way through matchmaking and ranking.
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multilingual seems to be the solution here...
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On October 19 2013 05:12 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 05:05 Kmatt wrote:On October 19 2013 04:57 itsjustatank wrote:
You can go ahead and justify your latent racism, in your own way. Your argument relies on the premise that all people who are non-English speakers will necessarily be people who "throw" games. No one's being racist. If a blond haired, blue-eyed man of hearty English stock died splitpushing when we were all telling him that the enemy team is coming because he only speaks with gurgled moans and pings, we'd be addressing it just as often. Granted, we'd not have a term for it, but writing off everyone who has games disrupted because 40% of the team can't be communicated with as "racist" is demonizing a legitimate problem. A problem, mind you, that the players were told was in their ability to control, via filters, and we all know what good those did. And this justifies the speech isolated in the OP as problematic? We are now back to the OP and my interpretation of a post in this thread, which on-point answers your bigoted response. Gameplay issues can be dealt with in their own way through matchmaking and ranking.
Attacking the lowest common denominator is rarely helpful. If some people overreact, you have to address the reasonable complaints instead of just telling them there's no problem. That will keep the conversation more civil than just telling them the reason they are frustrated is because they are racists.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/freedomriders/assets/images/issues/header/jim-crow-laws.jpg)
