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On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that.
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On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that.
I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game.
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On October 24 2013 00:22 Oakenshield wrote:
I agreed with parts of it but after spending a few hundred bucks on Dota and helping Valve with their beta for several years I don't really think it's fair to call me xenophobic for wanting a match making system that places me with four people speaking English when I click "US East - English". Unlike Pyrion I don't live anywhere near a country where English isn't taught in schools, and I do not queue on 3 different regions. For the entire existence of US East - English I have been clicking only US - East English and still am quite often met with people who refuse to communicate in English, can't communicate in English or call me a fat American pig for speaking English on the US - East English servers paid for by American English speaking company Valve, who I have contributed a lot of dollars to.
Please don't confuse a customer wanting to play a competitive strategic video game with an open and coherent line of communication as being anything remotely tied into racism. Yes this is what some memes on the internet say, yes I know people on Valve's facebook wall simply reduce my argument to "no brazilians and no russians in my life!!!" and make the whole movement look stupid and racist, but I assure you I've met plenty of people who just want coherent Dota. This isn't Counter-Strike and it's hard to have fun or win if someone speaks only a language I don't. The same is true for everyone who gets hammered, match making is horrible but the one defense I will make for it is that no game that I know of can take your blood alcohol level and adjust your match making queue accordingly.
Approved by Swiss person.
Why not just queue the language(s) you can speak? It's that simple...
I don't understand the thought process of queuing "English", even though you can't say a single word except "noob". I don't queue Russian and go spam "cyka" either.
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On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game.
And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team.
Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead.
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On October 23 2013 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
2) Do we even know that the matchmaking will never match people with different language preferences? So how can you be so sure that all of the non-english speaking players have intentionally choosen a language they don't speak?
3) How can you distinguish between someone not wanting to communicate in english with you and someone not being able to speak english with you? Maybe they are just ignoring you.
4) Which amount of english do you need to speak in order to play Dota? Reading some of the comments I get the impression every pub game starts with a 20 minute planning session on how to set up the lanes followed by intense ingame discussion on tactical details. My pub games can be broken down to: push, defend, take rax, take rosh, stop feed and an appropriate ping.
Of course it would be preferable to speak the same language but people should realize that there are also some practical limitations here. And more importantly the article doesn't defend people intentionally not communicating. It just says that people should stop generalizing from a few bad apples to an entire group of people. And then it uses some pseudo-psychology and pseudo-math to explain why people tend to overly hate russians and brazilians. You can also summarize the whole thing to: "Let's all be nicer to each other." 1) How often do people run into others who can't speak English? Rarely, which is why Russians and Brazilians are named specifically, which is because they have a ton of players who don't speak English, and they play on servers people who mostly speak English play on. If you're Italian and don't speak English, fine, play with English people and simply don't try to communicate. The problem is when you get 2-3 russians in your team who speak Russian constantly (which is fine in itself) but can't communicate with the rest of the team at all. 2) No one is sure of that in any specific case. No doubt people do it though. 3) The problem is not so much when people don't respond, they might have just muted everyone. The problem is when they write in cyrillic as a response to english simple sentences. That said, people who ignore standard friendly communication are douchebags as well. 4) Pretty much exactly what your pub games can be broken down to is enough. If I write "Don't cross river alone, you're feeding them." I would love it if they at least actually understand what I write, whether or not they act on it.
1&2) That is what the blog is trying to point out. The problem arises because of the large numbers of russian and brazilian players, not because of their nationality. So if we can't be sure that the language option works and you have three russian players in your team, you might actually be in a situation where they have russian enabled and are wondering why you don't speak russian? And they are the majority in this example.
3&4) Sorry, but this does not make sense. You're basically saying that you don't know if they understand english but because they write in cyrillic you assume that they don't. And you also say that you don't care if they don't react to what you're writing as long as they confirm that they understand you.
This is completely irrational. You're claiming that you're more upset with people that choose to ignore you than with people that are unable to understand you. And you confirmed earlier that we can't be sure if these people ended up in this situation on purpose. They might have simply been put there by a poor matchmaking algorithm.
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Sweden6375 Posts
On October 24 2013 01:53 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
2) Do we even know that the matchmaking will never match people with different language preferences? So how can you be so sure that all of the non-english speaking players have intentionally choosen a language they don't speak?
3) How can you distinguish between someone not wanting to communicate in english with you and someone not being able to speak english with you? Maybe they are just ignoring you.
4) Which amount of english do you need to speak in order to play Dota? Reading some of the comments I get the impression every pub game starts with a 20 minute planning session on how to set up the lanes followed by intense ingame discussion on tactical details. My pub games can be broken down to: push, defend, take rax, take rosh, stop feed and an appropriate ping.
Of course it would be preferable to speak the same language but people should realize that there are also some practical limitations here. And more importantly the article doesn't defend people intentionally not communicating. It just says that people should stop generalizing from a few bad apples to an entire group of people. And then it uses some pseudo-psychology and pseudo-math to explain why people tend to overly hate russians and brazilians. You can also summarize the whole thing to: "Let's all be nicer to each other." 1) How often do people run into others who can't speak English? Rarely, which is why Russians and Brazilians are named specifically, which is because they have a ton of players who don't speak English, and they play on servers people who mostly speak English play on. If you're Italian and don't speak English, fine, play with English people and simply don't try to communicate. The problem is when you get 2-3 russians in your team who speak Russian constantly (which is fine in itself) but can't communicate with the rest of the team at all. 2) No one is sure of that in any specific case. No doubt people do it though. 3) The problem is not so much when people don't respond, they might have just muted everyone. The problem is when they write in cyrillic as a response to english simple sentences. That said, people who ignore standard friendly communication are douchebags as well. 4) Pretty much exactly what your pub games can be broken down to is enough. If I write "Don't cross river alone, you're feeding them." I would love it if they at least actually understand what I write, whether or not they act on it. 1&2) That is what the blog is trying to point out. The problem arises because of the large numbers of russian and brazilian players, not because of their nationality. So if we can't be sure that the language option works and you have three russian players in your team, you might actually be in a situation where they have russian enabled and are wondering why you don't speak russian? And they are the majority in this example. 3&4) Sorry, but this does not make sense. You're basically saying that you don't know if they understand english but because they write in cyrillic you assume that they don't. And you also say that you don't care if they don't react to what you're writing as long as they confirm that they understand you. This is completely irrational. You're claiming that you're more upset with people that choose to ignore you than with people that are unable to understand you. And you confirmed earlier that we can't be sure if these people ended up in this situation on purpose. They might have simply been put there by a poor matchmaking algorithm.
1&2) No, the blog is pointing out that people who get mad when they are matched with people who don't understand English even though they are queuing on mainly English speaking servers with English set, they are racists and xenophobes.
3&4) What's irrational about it? Valve can't do anything about people being assholes and ignoring communication, but they can do something about people who are unable to communicate. Trust me, I hate asshole trolling Swedes more than Russians who don't speak English, but that's a different problem altogether and not what the blog is about. I don't assume they don't speak English because they write Cyrillic, I assume they don't speak English if they refuse to respond or react to English WHILE speaking Cyrillic.
It's really simple: Valve just needs to make it so that you DON'T get matched with people who haven't enabled your language setting, which takes care of the uncertainty, then they need to enforce it. This could mess up matchmaking times a buttload, but it would be worth a try to silence the complainers and see how it goes.
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On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that.
Yes I have reflected on that and the main point is that Valve wants the maximum number of players. So they don't want to restrict the player pool to players with select language skills. It is advantageous if all players in a team speak the same language without a doubt. It is even better if all players speak the same first language (at least that is what Alliance is claiming), but that is even harder to achieve. What would even be better if the people know each other before starting the game and have already formed a five man team. I can go on, but the main point is that this not about what is ideal for a team but what Valve has choosen to implement.
You believe that sharing the same language to a certain degree is vital for this game and Valve obviously does not. So stop focussing your frustration on nationality X and start focussing it on Valve. I'm sure that if enough people petition for a language X only option, it will appear at some point. Up to that point people should stop bashing each other and make some arbitary declerations on what server belongs to what language. I'm pretty sure that first language german speakers are the majority in western europe. So maybe EU west should become german only? (Hint: sarcasm)
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On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead.
Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking.
There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game.
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On October 24 2013 02:22 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead. Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking. There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game.
No one has been saying anything of the sort. I've never lashed out against any country who doesn't have english as first or second language and doesn't have their own server or anything that is closer to them than the main english servers are.
Russians on the other hand have both english in their education system and their own server. Yet a lot of them they outright refuse to communicate in anything but their own language and they queue up the server where english is the main language. The few russians that does speak english tell me that they queue on the english server because they as well can't stand other russians. That really doesn't bode well for their community. If they can't tolerate themselves, why should we?
edit: This is just a personal theory, and I have no data to back it up at all. But I do think the gaming demographic in russia is a lot younger than the rest of mainland europe. And as we know, younger people tend to be..less mature. That would explain both why a lot of them behave the way they do, and why they're not comfortable speaking english. It also helps to understand why other more mature russians tend to dislike them as well. I don't have anything against minors at all. But when they turn into a majority in a community, that community tends to be become very immature and downright unapproachable by anyone else.
But like I said, I don't know. Just a theory.
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On October 24 2013 02:30 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:22 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead. Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking. There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game. No one has been saying anything of the sort. I've never lashed out against any country who doesn't have english as first or second language and doesn't have their own server or anything that is closer to them than the main english servers are. Russians on the other hand have both english in their education system and their own server. Yet a lot of them they outright refuse to communicate in anything but their own language and they queue up the server where english is the main language. The few russians that does speak english tell me that they queue on the english server because they as well can't stand other russians. That really doesn't bode well for their community. If they can't tolerate themselves, why should we?
Noone has been saying anything of the sort? Read the nested quote. The guy I replied specifically quoted a case where there are no language options, and compared it to a discussion forum, where people that don't speak the language being discussed are obviously not allowed to participate.
You quoted me and started going on on a completelly diferent direction, when it is pretty clear if you look at the original quote it had nothing to do with russians. I didn't feel it was really necessary to go into detail on why forbidding certain demographics from playing the game is horrible. It's a pretty absurd concept and completelly unpractical.
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On October 24 2013 02:32 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:30 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 02:22 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead. Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking. There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game. No one has been saying anything of the sort. I've never lashed out against any country who doesn't have english as first or second language and doesn't have their own server or anything that is closer to them than the main english servers are. Russians on the other hand have both english in their education system and their own server. Yet a lot of them they outright refuse to communicate in anything but their own language and they queue up the server where english is the main language. The few russians that does speak english tell me that they queue on the english server because they as well can't stand other russians. That really doesn't bode well for their community. If they can't tolerate themselves, why should we? Noone has been saying anything of the sort? Read the nested quote. The guy I replied specifically quoted a case where there are no language options, and compared it to a discussion forum, where people that don't speak the language being discussed are obviously not allowed to participate. You quoted me and started going on on a completelly diferent direction, when it is pretty clear if you look at the original quote it had nothing to do with russians.
Hey, you accused me, and I spoke for me. I do not speak for anyone else on this forum. But I understand my wording could have been better in that regard. I quoted you earlier because your argument doesn't make any sense, while his (altough I personally disagree) does. I can completely see why "if there is no language settings for you, maybe the game isn't for you to begin with" as a valid argument (which is what was indirectly quoted), but yours saying "there is no comparison to a forum and a game", where both require communication, is not.
Personally I'd like to include as many people in dota 2 as possible, wherever they might be from. And if there is the odd man who doesn't speak english in my game once in a while, I don't mind. But a while demographic of people with their own server refusing to communicate in the language they queuing up for..?
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On October 24 2013 02:39 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:32 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 02:30 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 02:22 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead. Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking. There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game. No one has been saying anything of the sort. I've never lashed out against any country who doesn't have english as first or second language and doesn't have their own server or anything that is closer to them than the main english servers are. Russians on the other hand have both english in their education system and their own server. Yet a lot of them they outright refuse to communicate in anything but their own language and they queue up the server where english is the main language. The few russians that does speak english tell me that they queue on the english server because they as well can't stand other russians. That really doesn't bode well for their community. If they can't tolerate themselves, why should we? Noone has been saying anything of the sort? Read the nested quote. The guy I replied specifically quoted a case where there are no language options, and compared it to a discussion forum, where people that don't speak the language being discussed are obviously not allowed to participate. You quoted me and started going on on a completelly diferent direction, when it is pretty clear if you look at the original quote it had nothing to do with russians. Hey, you accused me, and I spoke for me. I do not speak for anyone else on this forum. But I understand my wording could have been better in that regard. I quoted you earlier because your argument doesn't make any sense, while his (altough I personally disagree) does. I can completely see why "if there is no language settings for you, maybe the game isn't for you to begin with" as a valid argument (which is what was indirectly quoted), but yours saying "there is no comparison to a forum and a game", where both require communication, is not. Personally I'd like to include as many people in dota 2 as possible, wherever they might be from. And if there is the odd man who doesn't speak english in my game once in a while, I don't mind. But a while demographic of people with their own server refusing to communicate in the language they queuing up for..?
Games do not require communication. Specially not written communication. That's the key issue. Yes, it can obviously improve the experience, but it is no requirement, and it is not stated anywhere that you need to chat with your teammates. You are looking for a diferent word than "requirement".
A lot of people that talk in other language actually would be able to write their thoughts, at least in a very basic manner. They don't want to. It's not uncommon to see a group of friends talking all the time in chinese or whathever and still be able to write a little bit in english if they want to. People that queue in other servers don't want to talk to you. It doesn't matter what language they write. It doesn't matter what language they speak, if they don't want to listen to what people say, speaking english wouldn't change a damn thing, and this is why getting so worked up about this is silly.
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On October 24 2013 02:47 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:39 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 02:32 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 02:30 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 02:22 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 01:46 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:42 SKC wrote:On October 24 2013 00:37 Monsen wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
You are making this post on a website that forbids you from posting in any other language than English. Reflect on that. I hope you are able to reflect on the diference between engaging on a discussion and playing a game. And I hope you are able to reflect on the need to communicate in a 5 man team game where every player is important and winning or losing depends on the synergy of the team. Seriously, this was of posting is retarded. Trying to oneup someone by using their own sentences against them in a bad attempt at "getting them", when what you should be focusing on is the content of your post instead. Are you actually saying Dota 2 should be restricted from everyone that doesn't speak the listed languages? And untill recently from anyone that didn't speak Russian, English or Chinese? That's a pretty absurd way of thinking. There's a very big diference between choosing the right language and forbidding a vast number of people from playing the game. No one has been saying anything of the sort. I've never lashed out against any country who doesn't have english as first or second language and doesn't have their own server or anything that is closer to them than the main english servers are. Russians on the other hand have both english in their education system and their own server. Yet a lot of them they outright refuse to communicate in anything but their own language and they queue up the server where english is the main language. The few russians that does speak english tell me that they queue on the english server because they as well can't stand other russians. That really doesn't bode well for their community. If they can't tolerate themselves, why should we? Noone has been saying anything of the sort? Read the nested quote. The guy I replied specifically quoted a case where there are no language options, and compared it to a discussion forum, where people that don't speak the language being discussed are obviously not allowed to participate. You quoted me and started going on on a completelly diferent direction, when it is pretty clear if you look at the original quote it had nothing to do with russians. Hey, you accused me, and I spoke for me. I do not speak for anyone else on this forum. But I understand my wording could have been better in that regard. I quoted you earlier because your argument doesn't make any sense, while his (altough I personally disagree) does. I can completely see why "if there is no language settings for you, maybe the game isn't for you to begin with" as a valid argument (which is what was indirectly quoted), but yours saying "there is no comparison to a forum and a game", where both require communication, is not. Personally I'd like to include as many people in dota 2 as possible, wherever they might be from. And if there is the odd man who doesn't speak english in my game once in a while, I don't mind. But a while demographic of people with their own server refusing to communicate in the language they queuing up for..? Games do not require communication. Specially not written communication. That's the key issue. Yes, it can obviously improve the experience, but it is no requirement, and it is not stated anywhere that you need to chat with your teammates. You are looking for a diferent word than "requirement". A lot of people that talk in other language actually would be able to write their thoughts, at least in a very basic manner. They don't want to. It's not uncommon to see a group of friends talking all the time in chinese or whathever and still be able to write a little bit in english if they want to. People that queue in other servers don't want to talk to you. It doesn't matter what language they write. It doesn't matter what language they speak, if they don't want to listen to what people say, speaking english wouldn't change a damn thing, and this is why getting so worked up about this is silly.
I can not fathom how you think a strategic game where victory depends on the synergy of you and your team does not require communication? Do you honestly think proteams don't communicate with eachother? Why should we in pubs require less communication than they do? This isn't a game where you can win by playing singleplayer. You can only win if you come together as a team, and that requires communication.
And yes, I use the word "require". If there is no communication, there is no strategy, and that team loses near always to a team that does communicate. This game is based around teamwork, stop trying to pass it off as a mere "bonus".
To your other points: If you want to talk to your friend in your own language, you do it on skype, ts, ventrilo or whatever. You don't shit up the in game voice chat. Humans get incredibly annoyed listening to conversations they can't understand, so why put your teammates through it? You can leave ingame chats to actually game-important stuff, while keeping the banter to yourselves.
edit: And you're saying "people who queue up on other servers don't want to talk to you", THEN DON'T QUE UP ON THE ENGLISH SERVER! que up on your own god damn server where you can talk in your own language as much as you want, and I can speak english to people who actually does want to talk in it.
whatever you might try to argue. If you have your own server with your own language, you do NOT get the right to queue up on any other server where you don't speak the language. Especially in a team focused game where communication is required. If you do, I get the right to report you and call you an asshat.
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Sweden6375 Posts
Another viable option, IMO, would be to have a "no-speaking" queue where there's no chat, just the ping commands. If you don't speak English, Russian or any of the other big languages, or if you simply don't want to be arsed with verbal communication, you can join that one and chat is disabled (or not, doesn't really matter). That way, there would be a perfectly fine way for people who don't want to or simply can't communicate, while allowing more enforcement on real communication in the normal queues.
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On October 24 2013 02:02 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 01:53 BlueSpace wrote:On October 23 2013 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
2) Do we even know that the matchmaking will never match people with different language preferences? So how can you be so sure that all of the non-english speaking players have intentionally choosen a language they don't speak?
3) How can you distinguish between someone not wanting to communicate in english with you and someone not being able to speak english with you? Maybe they are just ignoring you.
4) Which amount of english do you need to speak in order to play Dota? Reading some of the comments I get the impression every pub game starts with a 20 minute planning session on how to set up the lanes followed by intense ingame discussion on tactical details. My pub games can be broken down to: push, defend, take rax, take rosh, stop feed and an appropriate ping.
Of course it would be preferable to speak the same language but people should realize that there are also some practical limitations here. And more importantly the article doesn't defend people intentionally not communicating. It just says that people should stop generalizing from a few bad apples to an entire group of people. And then it uses some pseudo-psychology and pseudo-math to explain why people tend to overly hate russians and brazilians. You can also summarize the whole thing to: "Let's all be nicer to each other." 1) How often do people run into others who can't speak English? Rarely, which is why Russians and Brazilians are named specifically, which is because they have a ton of players who don't speak English, and they play on servers people who mostly speak English play on. If you're Italian and don't speak English, fine, play with English people and simply don't try to communicate. The problem is when you get 2-3 russians in your team who speak Russian constantly (which is fine in itself) but can't communicate with the rest of the team at all. 2) No one is sure of that in any specific case. No doubt people do it though. 3) The problem is not so much when people don't respond, they might have just muted everyone. The problem is when they write in cyrillic as a response to english simple sentences. That said, people who ignore standard friendly communication are douchebags as well. 4) Pretty much exactly what your pub games can be broken down to is enough. If I write "Don't cross river alone, you're feeding them." I would love it if they at least actually understand what I write, whether or not they act on it. 1&2) That is what the blog is trying to point out. The problem arises because of the large numbers of russian and brazilian players, not because of their nationality. So if we can't be sure that the language option works and you have three russian players in your team, you might actually be in a situation where they have russian enabled and are wondering why you don't speak russian? And they are the majority in this example. 3&4) Sorry, but this does not make sense. You're basically saying that you don't know if they understand english but because they write in cyrillic you assume that they don't. And you also say that you don't care if they don't react to what you're writing as long as they confirm that they understand you. This is completely irrational. You're claiming that you're more upset with people that choose to ignore you than with people that are unable to understand you. And you confirmed earlier that we can't be sure if these people ended up in this situation on purpose. They might have simply been put there by a poor matchmaking algorithm. 1&2) No, the blog is pointing out that people who get mad when they are matched with people who don't understand English even though they are queuing on mainly English speaking servers with English set, they are racists and xenophobes. 3&4) What's irrational about it? Valve can't do anything about people being assholes and ignoring communication, but they can do something about people who are unable to communicate. Trust me, I hate asshole trolling Swedes more than Russians who don't speak English, but that's a different problem altogether and not what the blog is about. I don't assume they don't speak English because they write Cyrillic, I assume they don't speak English if they refuse to respond or react to English WHILE speaking Cyrillic. It's really simple: Valve just needs to make it so that you DON'T get matched with people who haven't enabled your language setting, which takes care of the uncertainty, then they need to enforce it. This could mess up matchmaking times a buttload, but it would be worth a try to silence the complainers and see how it goes.
1&2) I read the blog post differently. First of all it doesn't use the word racist anywhere. It talks about cloaked xenophobia in a very specific context. It adresses the problem of people going from "I met a lot of nationality-X assholes" to "Everyone of nationality X is an asshole". I think we can agree that this is bad and should be avoided.
3&4) But you can't distinguish people that refuse to communicate from people that can't communicate and that is why I'm saying you're being irrational. I do get the source of frustration but in every specific instance this has happened to you, you can never be sure that the people didn't simply refuse to communicate. Because in order to confirm this you need to communicate with them somehow.
Valve could do that, but it would marginalize part of the player base, specifically the players I mentioned in the beginning that speak none of the "option languages" and effectively put a language barrier into the game. These player will then simply ignore the function and enforcing could only be done by administring language test. So you don't really solve the problem, alienate part of the player base in the process, introduce a complicated to enforce game requirement and will most likely enrage the community even further.
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Valve could just add a tick box option for every language they don't actually have to support those languages, just add them as a MM option, the real issue is players selecting languages they cant communicate in when there are language options they can.
Spin it how you like, you can try to be ironic and sarcastic like PF tried to do , but valve need to address it and those players selecting unsuitable language options just wont stop even if they have suitable language options and unlike PF I have the backbone to say so ,it's a game and not some peace movement for would be PC brigade members.
And don't lump it in with oh players of the same language can be abusive and uncommunicative ..etc etc that is a different issue.
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Sweden6375 Posts
On October 24 2013 03:10 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:02 Tobberoth wrote:On October 24 2013 01:53 BlueSpace wrote:On October 23 2013 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:On October 23 2013 20:49 BlueSpace wrote:
I find the entire discussion regarding the matchmaking language preference option rather amusing.
1) So basically if I don't speak any of the languages given in the preference menu, I shouldn't be allowed to play Dota2 at all?
2) Do we even know that the matchmaking will never match people with different language preferences? So how can you be so sure that all of the non-english speaking players have intentionally choosen a language they don't speak?
3) How can you distinguish between someone not wanting to communicate in english with you and someone not being able to speak english with you? Maybe they are just ignoring you.
4) Which amount of english do you need to speak in order to play Dota? Reading some of the comments I get the impression every pub game starts with a 20 minute planning session on how to set up the lanes followed by intense ingame discussion on tactical details. My pub games can be broken down to: push, defend, take rax, take rosh, stop feed and an appropriate ping.
Of course it would be preferable to speak the same language but people should realize that there are also some practical limitations here. And more importantly the article doesn't defend people intentionally not communicating. It just says that people should stop generalizing from a few bad apples to an entire group of people. And then it uses some pseudo-psychology and pseudo-math to explain why people tend to overly hate russians and brazilians. You can also summarize the whole thing to: "Let's all be nicer to each other." 1) How often do people run into others who can't speak English? Rarely, which is why Russians and Brazilians are named specifically, which is because they have a ton of players who don't speak English, and they play on servers people who mostly speak English play on. If you're Italian and don't speak English, fine, play with English people and simply don't try to communicate. The problem is when you get 2-3 russians in your team who speak Russian constantly (which is fine in itself) but can't communicate with the rest of the team at all. 2) No one is sure of that in any specific case. No doubt people do it though. 3) The problem is not so much when people don't respond, they might have just muted everyone. The problem is when they write in cyrillic as a response to english simple sentences. That said, people who ignore standard friendly communication are douchebags as well. 4) Pretty much exactly what your pub games can be broken down to is enough. If I write "Don't cross river alone, you're feeding them." I would love it if they at least actually understand what I write, whether or not they act on it. 1&2) That is what the blog is trying to point out. The problem arises because of the large numbers of russian and brazilian players, not because of their nationality. So if we can't be sure that the language option works and you have three russian players in your team, you might actually be in a situation where they have russian enabled and are wondering why you don't speak russian? And they are the majority in this example. 3&4) Sorry, but this does not make sense. You're basically saying that you don't know if they understand english but because they write in cyrillic you assume that they don't. And you also say that you don't care if they don't react to what you're writing as long as they confirm that they understand you. This is completely irrational. You're claiming that you're more upset with people that choose to ignore you than with people that are unable to understand you. And you confirmed earlier that we can't be sure if these people ended up in this situation on purpose. They might have simply been put there by a poor matchmaking algorithm. 1&2) No, the blog is pointing out that people who get mad when they are matched with people who don't understand English even though they are queuing on mainly English speaking servers with English set, they are racists and xenophobes. 3&4) What's irrational about it? Valve can't do anything about people being assholes and ignoring communication, but they can do something about people who are unable to communicate. Trust me, I hate asshole trolling Swedes more than Russians who don't speak English, but that's a different problem altogether and not what the blog is about. I don't assume they don't speak English because they write Cyrillic, I assume they don't speak English if they refuse to respond or react to English WHILE speaking Cyrillic. It's really simple: Valve just needs to make it so that you DON'T get matched with people who haven't enabled your language setting, which takes care of the uncertainty, then they need to enforce it. This could mess up matchmaking times a buttload, but it would be worth a try to silence the complainers and see how it goes. 1&2) I read the blog post differently. First of all it doesn't use the word racist anywhere. It talks about cloaked xenophobia in a very specific context. It adresses the problem of people going from "I met a lot of nationality-X assholes" to "Everyone of nationality X is an asshole". I think we can agree that this is bad and should be avoided. 3&4) But you can't distinguish people that refuse to communicate from people that can't communicate and that is why I'm saying you're being irrational. I do get the source of frustration but in every specific instance this has happened to you, you can never be sure that the people didn't simply refuse to communicate. Because in order to confirm this you need to communicate with them somehow. Valve could do that, but it would marginalize part of the player base, specifically the players I mentioned in the beginning that speak none of the "option languages" and effectively put a language barrier into the game. These player will then simply ignore the function and enforcing could only be done by administring language test. So you don't really solve the problem, alienate part of the player base in the process, introduce a complicated to enforce game requirement and will most likely enrage the community even further.
1&2) The problem is not what you can gather from the blog post, obviously I agree that people saying Russians are idiots is problematic. The problem is the way it was worded, as you can see from the reaction in this topic. Pyrion is basically pointing a finger at everyone who is annoyed by people who disregard language barriers, and acts as if they are all the kind of people who call all Russians idiots. This is what I wrote earlier in the topic, if pyrion wants people to stop saying "Russians/Brazilians are idiots" and start saying "Man, it's annoying when people don't know the language and play weird because of it", he should have said so. The fact that he didn't means the blog is poorly worded at best, dumb at worst.
3&4) No, you can't distinguish them on a case by case basis, but that's not relevant. We are talking about a widespread problem on the ladder every day. Just because no one can be sure whether or not it was the issue in the specific game they just played, the problem is widespread enough that it's still valid to complain about.
I don't think we need a language test. It's enough to report people for bad communication. Whether it was bad communication because the other player is a D-bag or because he doesn't speak the language wouldn't matter. All it would need is enforcement.
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On October 24 2013 04:14 [TGU]SOL wrote:
Valve could just add a tick box option for every language they don't actually have to support those languages, just add them as a MM option, the real issue is players selecting languages they cant communicate in when there are language options they can.
Spin it how you like, you can try to be ironic and sarcastic like PF tried to do , but valve need to address it and those players selecting unsuitable language options just wont stop even if they have suitable language options and unlike PF I have the backbone to say so ,it's a game and not some peace movement for would be PC brigade members.
And don't lump it in with oh players of the same language can be abusive and uncommunicative ..etc etc that is a different issue.
I assume you're replying to me. Although I can't be sure because your reply indicates that you didn't read my last post. Please explain how you intend on enforcing this language option and how you want to prevent players leaving the game as a consequence of belonging to a small player pool with long matchmaking times due to speaking a certain language. I'm writing this purely to try to make you think about the feasibilty of what you're asking Valve to do. Don't forget that they will have to effectively monitor voice communication in some way. Just thinking a little about it will make it clear how difficult to implement this will be in an efficient way. The results of similar thoughts on Valves part was probably the preferred language option as a solution.It doesn't seem to work.
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I have generally found people who speak only a few words of English to be more helpful in communicating information about the game than the fluent Australians I am frequently matched with. A lot of said people have learned or use basic dota vocabulary in English, and I feel like it would be polite to do the converse.
A polite version of cyka.txt that compares mandarin, english, portugese, russian, spanish, any other commonly spoken languages on dota (these are the ones I encounter most) would be pretty useful for people who have learned basic pronunciation. (I guess the mandarin would have to be in pinyin.) I've been looking for such a document for a while, but I can't find one.
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When I perused this article, I thought they meant foreigners as in all non-Koreans. I was confused... but that's what a Starcraft background will do to you.
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EPT
