This is directed to the people who currently play BW and can actually give me some in-put.
I'm currently working on getting to C and I'm having some difficulty (obviously) so I thought that an objective look at my play would probably help. I usually take a look at the replays when I lose and try to learn from my mistakes, but I think that having a couple of you more experienced players have a glance wouldn't hurt.
I've got a couple of replays that are from my oldest account that I decided to just whale on until I see some improvement in my play. I've also got a couple of FPVODS - which are somewhat older, but still apply for those of you who don't want to take the time to download and watch these in the BW launcher.
don't get recall first unless you really think it's favourable. I watched pvt 1 and skimmed the other pvts but both pvt 1 and pvt 4 you got recall first and don't think you used it (or at the very least, added unnecessary risk by not having stasis). pvt 2 didn't have gas for research so you waited until after first arbiter was done to start a research (and did go stasis first there)
just get stasis asap with arbiter construction in general.
probably can prep first major engagement in pvt a little better too by just telling 1 group of zealots to run. i.e. 1a2a3move4a5a, then after those zealots run some just go 3a. pvt 2 I think you didn't have your army as well segregated so that zealots and dragoons were in same hotkeys (thus just 1a2a3a4a5a) and pvt 1 you were all prepped but zealots a moved into vultures at front and didn't get right on top of the tanks as fast as possible. pvt 4 was wonky since you got caught in an accidental engagement.
though I am not a high level player (c- or previous c in pvt)
fs when terran moves out just have speed zealots at the ready and boom you're c rank
On August 19 2013 04:35 N.geNuity wrote: don't get recall first unless you really think it's favourable. I watched pvt 1 and skimmed the other pvts but both pvt 1 and pvt 4 you got recall first and don't think you used it (or at the very least, added unnecessary risk by not having stasis). pvt didn't have gas for research so you waited until after first arbiter was done to start a research (and did go stasis first there)
just get stasis asap with arbiter construction in general.
probably can prep first major engagement in pvt a little better too by just telling 1 group of zealots to run. i.e. 1a2a3move4a5a, then after those zealots run some just go 3a. pvt 2 I think you didn't have your army as well segregated so that zealots and dragoons were in same hotkeys (thus just 1a2a3a4a5a) and pvt 1 you were all prepped but zealots a moved into vultures at front and didn't get right on top of the tanks as fast as possible. pvt 4 was wonky since you got caught in an accidental engagement.
though I am not a high level player (c- or previous c in pvt)
fs when terran moves out just have spead zealots at the ready and boom you're c rank
your pvt is c rank though imo
I just lost a PvT becaust of the above. I was definitely thinking about the inefficiency of going recall first, but I kind of felt better having it if I needed it
In PvT you need to begin tech and upgrades before reaching 200 supply. You can't just mass zealot/goon and hope to beat their maxed army with 1a2a3a. Use arbiters and either stasis and overwhelm their army, or delay engaging and instead recall their bases. If you recall while they're pushing out, they either have to turn around or go all in. If they decide to attack, you can whittle away at their army while they are unable to reproduce because recall kills either their factories or third base. Also, stop donating units before engagements.
On August 19 2013 05:18 Sero wrote: In PvT you need to begin tech and upgrades before reaching 200 supply. You can't just mass zealot/goon and hope to beat their maxed army with 1a2a3a. Use arbiters and either stasis and overwhelm their army, or delay engaging and instead recall their bases. If you recall while they're pushing out, they either have to turn around or go all in. If they decide to attack, you can whittle away at their army while they are unable to reproduce because recall kills either their factories or third base. Also, stop donating units before engagements.
I played quite a bit of PvT during my time on iCCup, so I'll tell you what I liked and didn't like about each of your PvT games.
Response to PvT 1
At the start, your Cybernetics Core postioning was nice--it would've blocked Vultures from running around had the Terran player opened with a fast Starport.
I didn't like your opening build order. You started with 2 Gate Goon with Range as if you were going to do an aggressive play but then you went for a fast Nexus. You don't need to build the Gateways so early if you aren't going to be using them so soon. I propose the following build (copied from an SKT Protoss player). It gets you a fast Nexus at 21, and it gets you 2 Gateways to pump Dragoons on the way. You'll have 4 Dragoons in time to meet any FD or 2 Fact push.
Pylon - 8 (Probe should be halfway finished in Nexus) Gateway - 10 (@150 minerals) - Send scouting Probe - check middle for proxies Assimilator - 11 (@100 minerals) Cybernetics Core - 13 (Assimilator should warp in exactly when you put it down) Pylon - 15 (Should build the moment the Probe spawns) Dragoon Range - 16 (Start the moment the Core finishes) At 42 gas, send 2 Probes from gas to minerals to speed up mineral mining. Dragoon - 17 Stop Probe production - 21 Nexus - 21 (Dragoon should spawn at this time - Put 2 Probes back on gas once the Nexus goes down) Gateway - 21 Dragoon - 21 Pylon - 23 Resume Probe production - 23
2nd Gateway should warp in exactly when 2nd Dragoon spawns, where you then make 2 Dragoons at the same time.
Robotics Facility - 30 (Nexus should come up in a few seconds-transfer 8 Probes)
Another thing I didn't like was that you didn't set up a Pylon wall at your natural to guard against Vulture run-bys. More experienced Terran players are more aggressive with Vulture harassment, so Pylon walls can be game savers.
You mannered your 3rd gas by building the Forge right between the Nexus and the Geyser, and when it completed you only put 2 Probes on it. You should've built the Forge slightly lower to complete the Pylon wall above the ramp.
I liked how you didn't rush to get your 4th base up too quickly in response to the Terran player taking his 3rd. What I didn't like was that you took your 5th right after your 4th. I recommend you wait until you max before you take the 5th. When you did reach maximum supply, I liked how you built many more Gateways in the 2 o' clock main to increase production capability.
Throughout the game, you didn't make the mistake of getting too many Probes. You kept your Probe saturation low on many bases, which is good. I notice some beginning players get like 80 Probes in total, and they can only have like 5 control groups of units as a result.
When you took the 9 o' clock base, I would've preferred it if you took the other two bases at the bottom left as well. Your money was high at around 2000 minerals, and you were still waiting for the Terran player to make a move. It also would've given you more of an economic cushion in case the Terran player pushed out and killed your base at the 2 o' clock.
I liked your idea to keep all your units outside the Terran's bridge and flank him once he pushed out. Unfortunately, I think you were a little too impatient with the execution. I would have preferred it if you kept your units back a little more and flanked him once the bulk of his forces was across the bridge. As it turned out in this game, your units clumped together at the bridge, which would have made them more vulnerable to splash damage. Luckily for you, all his Tanks were unsieged on his side of the bridge, so you did a lot more damage than you should've done. I didn't like how you pushed on with the attack into his base after the flank. You ended up losing all your units and for a moment there you had no army. You had many Gateways to quickly rebuild, yes, but you gave the Terran player an opportunity to push out across the map, as he did. Once you did the flanking maneuver, I think you should've pulled back into a position to flank him again the next time he pushed out.
You built your 3rd base before checking whether or not the Terran player went for a fast Command Center of his own. I thought this was pretty risky on your part because the Terran player could have easily gone for an early attack off 1 base. Speaking of 3rd bases, you didn't do anything to contest the Terran's 3rd. Use your army to do something about it rather than just sitting around doing nothing!
You researched Recall first, and you never used it in the game. Stasis is probably the safer 1st upgrade, since you can use it to defend an early Terran push, and your Arbiters will actually have the energy to use it when the upgrade completes.
After you place your 3rd Nexus, take your 2nd gas when you make your Citadel, as teching to Arbiters is very gas-heavy. Also, rally your Stargates to your natural. Rally the Gateways at 2 o' clock, too.
Good army composition in general. I didn't think you had too many Dragoons or too many Zealots at any point. I liked how you used Shuttles with Zealot bombs in your engagements.
I felt like you should've started +1 Weapons in your Forge a little sooner. I usually see it started around when the first Arbiter is building.
Gosh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'll continue later if you find my advice helpful.
Some tips on mine clearing, dont take all your goons, take 2-3 at the most 4 and slowly move your obs ahead first then the goons, if you a-move the goons will move faster with an obs without speed, thus rendering the detection too late and a potentially losing a lot of units to clumps of mines that can't be shot down fast enough.
Also in PvZ/PvT you need to get 3rd gas asap otherwise you can't tech and get upgrades at the same time.
On August 19 2013 06:01 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Hello, thezanursic.
I played quite a bit of PvT during my time on iCCup, so I'll tell you what I liked and didn't like about each of your PvT games.
Response to PvT 1
At the start, your Cybernetics Core postioning was nice--it would've blocked Vultures from running around had the Terran player opened with a fast Starport.
I didn't like your opening build order. You started with 2 Gate Goon with Range as if you were going to do an aggressive play but then you went for a fast Nexus. You don't need to build the Gateways so early if you aren't going to be using them so soon. I propose the following build (copied from an SKT Protoss player). It gets you a fast Nexus at 21, and it gets you 2 Gateways to pump Dragoons on the way. You'll have 4 Dragoons in time to meet any FD or 2 Fact push.
Pylon - 8 (Probe should be halfway finished in Nexus) Gateway - 10 (@150 minerals) - Send scouting Probe - check middle for proxies Assimilator - 11 (@100 minerals) Cybernetics Core - 13 (Assimilator should warp in exactly when you put it down) Pylon - 15 (Should build the moment the Probe spawns) Dragoon Range - 16 (Start the moment the Core finishes) At 42 gas, send 2 Probes from gas to minerals to speed up mineral mining. Dragoon - 17 Stop Probe production - 21 Nexus - 21 (Dragoon should spawn at this time - Put 2 Probes back on gas once the Nexus goes down) Gateway - 21 Dragoon - 21 Pylon - 23 Resume Probe production - 23
2nd Gateway should warp in exactly when 2nd Dragoon spawns, where you then make 2 Dragoons at the same time.
Robotics Facility - 30 (Nexus should come up in a few seconds-transfer 8 Probes)
Another thing I didn't like was that you didn't set up a Pylon wall at your natural to guard against Vulture run-bys. More experienced Terran players are more aggressive with Vulture harassment, so Pylon walls can be game savers.
You mannered your 3rd gas by building the Forge right between the Nexus and the Geyser, and when it completed you only put 2 Probes on it. You should've built the Forge slightly lower to complete the Pylon wall above the ramp.
I liked how you didn't rush to get your 4th base up too quickly in response to the Terran player taking his 3rd. What I didn't like was that you took your 5th right after your 4th. I recommend you wait until you max before you take the 5th. When you did reach maximum supply, I liked how you built many more Gateways in the 2 o' clock main to increase production capability.
Throughout the game, you didn't make the mistake of getting too many Probes. You kept your Probe saturation low on many bases, which is good. I notice some beginning players get like 80 Probes in total, and they can only have like 5 control groups of units as a result.
When you took the 9 o' clock base, I would've preferred it if you took the other two bases at the bottom left as well. Your money was high at around 2000 minerals, and you were still waiting for the Terran player to make a move. It also would've given you more of an economic cushion in case the Terran player pushed out and killed your base at the 2 o' clock.
I liked your idea to keep all your units outside the Terran's bridge and flank him once he pushed out. Unfortunately, I think you were a little too impatient with the execution. I would have preferred it if you kept your units back a little more and flanked him once the bulk of his forces was across the bridge. As it turned out in this game, your units clumped together at the bridge, which would have made them more vulnerable to splash damage. Luckily for you, all his Tanks were unsieged on his side of the bridge, so you did a lot more damage than you should've done. I didn't like how you pushed on with the attack into his base after the flank. You ended up losing all your units and for a moment there you had no army. You had many Gateways to quickly rebuild, yes, but you gave the Terran player an opportunity to push out across the map, as he did. Once you did the flanking maneuver, I think you should've pulled back into a position to flank him again the next time he pushed out.
You built your 3rd base before checking whether or not the Terran player went for a fast Command Center of his own. I thought this was pretty risky on your part because the Terran player could have easily gone for an early attack off 1 base. Speaking of 3rd bases, you didn't do anything to contest the Terran's 3rd. Use your army to do something about it rather than just sitting around doing nothing!
You researched Recall first, and you never used it in the game. Stasis is probably the safer 1st upgrade, since you can use it to defend an early Terran push, and your Arbiters will actually have the energy to use it when the upgrade completes.
After you place your 3rd Nexus, take your 2nd gas when you make your Citadel, as teching to Arbiters is very gas-heavy. Also, rally your Stargates to your natural. Rally the Gateways at 2 o' clock, too.
Good army composition in general. I didn't think you had too many Dragoons or too many Zealots at any point. I liked how you used Shuttles with Zealot bombs in your engagements.
I felt like you should've started +1 Weapons in your Forge a little sooner. I usually see it started around when the first Arbiter is building.
Gosh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'll continue later if you find my advice helpful.
I've been using pylon walls as of late instead of getting 2 cannons in my 3rd. I used to do that because vultures could just run into my 3rd anyway when I was out on the map (Which can usually be contributed to my bad play for sending to many dragoons to deal with vultures or simply not having good map control), but I'm trying to fix that with some better army positioning.
About my build. I was thinking of chaning the opening, but in general I don't really think it's that bad. It's quite well optimized and can pretty much hold of anything with proper micro - Also like the fact that people sometimes mistake it for 10/15 :D
I have also started getting statis fiirst instead, but I still haven't found the optimal timing to start teching and to take my 4th, 5th vs a fast 3rd base. The above is mostly what I'm dealing with in PvT right now and I also decided to dedicate a little bit more time to Snipealot and specifically study how to engage an army.
N.genuity pointed out that I should run in with zealots, which is really obvious when I think about it now, but it just didn't occure to me before. I'm probably going to normaly hotkey my army 1-6 then double click a group of 12 zealots and hotkey them at 7 (If they end up in different control groups they should spread out better anyway)
So instead of Stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a Stasis, (Storm) stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a7Move 7a stasis storm. Which doesn't seem that overwhelming when I get used to it
On August 19 2013 06:01 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Hello, thezanursic.
I played quite a bit of PvT during my time on iCCup, so I'll tell you what I liked and didn't like about each of your PvT games.
Response to PvT 1
At the start, your Cybernetics Core postioning was nice--it would've blocked Vultures from running around had the Terran player opened with a fast Starport.
I didn't like your opening build order. You started with 2 Gate Goon with Range as if you were going to do an aggressive play but then you went for a fast Nexus. You don't need to build the Gateways so early if you aren't going to be using them so soon. I propose the following build (copied from an SKT Protoss player). It gets you a fast Nexus at 21, and it gets you 2 Gateways to pump Dragoons on the way. You'll have 4 Dragoons in time to meet any FD or 2 Fact push.
Pylon - 8 (Probe should be halfway finished in Nexus) Gateway - 10 (@150 minerals) - Send scouting Probe - check middle for proxies Assimilator - 11 (@100 minerals) Cybernetics Core - 13 (Assimilator should warp in exactly when you put it down) Pylon - 15 (Should build the moment the Probe spawns) Dragoon Range - 16 (Start the moment the Core finishes) At 42 gas, send 2 Probes from gas to minerals to speed up mineral mining. Dragoon - 17 Stop Probe production - 21 Nexus - 21 (Dragoon should spawn at this time - Put 2 Probes back on gas once the Nexus goes down) Gateway - 21 Dragoon - 21 Pylon - 23 Resume Probe production - 23
2nd Gateway should warp in exactly when 2nd Dragoon spawns, where you then make 2 Dragoons at the same time.
Robotics Facility - 30 (Nexus should come up in a few seconds-transfer 8 Probes)
Another thing I didn't like was that you didn't set up a Pylon wall at your natural to guard against Vulture run-bys. More experienced Terran players are more aggressive with Vulture harassment, so Pylon walls can be game savers.
You mannered your 3rd gas by building the Forge right between the Nexus and the Geyser, and when it completed you only put 2 Probes on it. You should've built the Forge slightly lower to complete the Pylon wall above the ramp.
I liked how you didn't rush to get your 4th base up too quickly in response to the Terran player taking his 3rd. What I didn't like was that you took your 5th right after your 4th. I recommend you wait until you max before you take the 5th. When you did reach maximum supply, I liked how you built many more Gateways in the 2 o' clock main to increase production capability.
Throughout the game, you didn't make the mistake of getting too many Probes. You kept your Probe saturation low on many bases, which is good. I notice some beginning players get like 80 Probes in total, and they can only have like 5 control groups of units as a result.
When you took the 9 o' clock base, I would've preferred it if you took the other two bases at the bottom left as well. Your money was high at around 2000 minerals, and you were still waiting for the Terran player to make a move. It also would've given you more of an economic cushion in case the Terran player pushed out and killed your base at the 2 o' clock.
I liked your idea to keep all your units outside the Terran's bridge and flank him once he pushed out. Unfortunately, I think you were a little too impatient with the execution. I would have preferred it if you kept your units back a little more and flanked him once the bulk of his forces was across the bridge. As it turned out in this game, your units clumped together at the bridge, which would have made them more vulnerable to splash damage. Luckily for you, all his Tanks were unsieged on his side of the bridge, so you did a lot more damage than you should've done. I didn't like how you pushed on with the attack into his base after the flank. You ended up losing all your units and for a moment there you had no army. You had many Gateways to quickly rebuild, yes, but you gave the Terran player an opportunity to push out across the map, as he did. Once you did the flanking maneuver, I think you should've pulled back into a position to flank him again the next time he pushed out.
You built your 3rd base before checking whether or not the Terran player went for a fast Command Center of his own. I thought this was pretty risky on your part because the Terran player could have easily gone for an early attack off 1 base. Speaking of 3rd bases, you didn't do anything to contest the Terran's 3rd. Use your army to do something about it rather than just sitting around doing nothing!
You researched Recall first, and you never used it in the game. Stasis is probably the safer 1st upgrade, since you can use it to defend an early Terran push, and your Arbiters will actually have the energy to use it when the upgrade completes.
After you place your 3rd Nexus, take your 2nd gas when you make your Citadel, as teching to Arbiters is very gas-heavy. Also, rally your Stargates to your natural. Rally the Gateways at 2 o' clock, too.
Good army composition in general. I didn't think you had too many Dragoons or too many Zealots at any point. I liked how you used Shuttles with Zealot bombs in your engagements.
I felt like you should've started +1 Weapons in your Forge a little sooner. I usually see it started around when the first Arbiter is building.
Gosh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'll continue later if you find my advice helpful.
I've been using pylon walls as of late instead of getting 2 cannons in my 3rd. I used to do that because vultures could just run into my 3rd anyway when I was out on the map (Which can usually be contributed to my bad play for sending to many dragoons to deal with vultures or simply not having good map control), but I'm trying to fix that with some better army positioning.
About my build. I was thinking of chaning the opening, but in general I don't really think it's that bad. It's quite well optimized and can pretty much hold of anything with proper micro - Also like the fact that people sometimes mistake it for 10/15 :D
I have also started getting statis fiirst instead, but I still haven't found the optimal timing to start teching and to take my 4th, 5th vs a fast 3rd base. The above is mostly what I'm dealing with in PvT right now and I also decided to dedicate a little bit more time to Snipealot and specifically study how to engage an army.
N.genuity pointed out that I should run in with zealots, which is really obvious when I think about it now, but it just didn't occure to me before. I'm probably going to normaly hotkey my army 1-6 then double click a group of 12 zealots and hotkey them at 7 (If they end up in different control groups they should spread out better anyway)
So instead of Stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a Stasis, (Storm) stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a7Move 7a stasis storm. Which doesn't seem that overwhelming when I get used to it
You didn't seem to read what I posted, so I won't give you any more advice. Also, why are you having people analyze how you used to play? I mean, for Christ's sake, post games or FPVODs of your most recent play to get the most up-to-date advice for your game. If you are building Pylon walls and getting Stasis first now, then that's great. It was such a waste of effort on my part for trying to notice these things you've already fixed. Good luck with your PvT.
On August 19 2013 06:01 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Hello, thezanursic.
I played quite a bit of PvT during my time on iCCup, so I'll tell you what I liked and didn't like about each of your PvT games.
Response to PvT 1
At the start, your Cybernetics Core postioning was nice--it would've blocked Vultures from running around had the Terran player opened with a fast Starport.
I didn't like your opening build order. You started with 2 Gate Goon with Range as if you were going to do an aggressive play but then you went for a fast Nexus. You don't need to build the Gateways so early if you aren't going to be using them so soon. I propose the following build (copied from an SKT Protoss player). It gets you a fast Nexus at 21, and it gets you 2 Gateways to pump Dragoons on the way. You'll have 4 Dragoons in time to meet any FD or 2 Fact push.
Pylon - 8 (Probe should be halfway finished in Nexus) Gateway - 10 (@150 minerals) - Send scouting Probe - check middle for proxies Assimilator - 11 (@100 minerals) Cybernetics Core - 13 (Assimilator should warp in exactly when you put it down) Pylon - 15 (Should build the moment the Probe spawns) Dragoon Range - 16 (Start the moment the Core finishes) At 42 gas, send 2 Probes from gas to minerals to speed up mineral mining. Dragoon - 17 Stop Probe production - 21 Nexus - 21 (Dragoon should spawn at this time - Put 2 Probes back on gas once the Nexus goes down) Gateway - 21 Dragoon - 21 Pylon - 23 Resume Probe production - 23
2nd Gateway should warp in exactly when 2nd Dragoon spawns, where you then make 2 Dragoons at the same time.
Robotics Facility - 30 (Nexus should come up in a few seconds-transfer 8 Probes)
Another thing I didn't like was that you didn't set up a Pylon wall at your natural to guard against Vulture run-bys. More experienced Terran players are more aggressive with Vulture harassment, so Pylon walls can be game savers.
You mannered your 3rd gas by building the Forge right between the Nexus and the Geyser, and when it completed you only put 2 Probes on it. You should've built the Forge slightly lower to complete the Pylon wall above the ramp.
I liked how you didn't rush to get your 4th base up too quickly in response to the Terran player taking his 3rd. What I didn't like was that you took your 5th right after your 4th. I recommend you wait until you max before you take the 5th. When you did reach maximum supply, I liked how you built many more Gateways in the 2 o' clock main to increase production capability.
Throughout the game, you didn't make the mistake of getting too many Probes. You kept your Probe saturation low on many bases, which is good. I notice some beginning players get like 80 Probes in total, and they can only have like 5 control groups of units as a result.
When you took the 9 o' clock base, I would've preferred it if you took the other two bases at the bottom left as well. Your money was high at around 2000 minerals, and you were still waiting for the Terran player to make a move. It also would've given you more of an economic cushion in case the Terran player pushed out and killed your base at the 2 o' clock.
I liked your idea to keep all your units outside the Terran's bridge and flank him once he pushed out. Unfortunately, I think you were a little too impatient with the execution. I would have preferred it if you kept your units back a little more and flanked him once the bulk of his forces was across the bridge. As it turned out in this game, your units clumped together at the bridge, which would have made them more vulnerable to splash damage. Luckily for you, all his Tanks were unsieged on his side of the bridge, so you did a lot more damage than you should've done. I didn't like how you pushed on with the attack into his base after the flank. You ended up losing all your units and for a moment there you had no army. You had many Gateways to quickly rebuild, yes, but you gave the Terran player an opportunity to push out across the map, as he did. Once you did the flanking maneuver, I think you should've pulled back into a position to flank him again the next time he pushed out.
You built your 3rd base before checking whether or not the Terran player went for a fast Command Center of his own. I thought this was pretty risky on your part because the Terran player could have easily gone for an early attack off 1 base. Speaking of 3rd bases, you didn't do anything to contest the Terran's 3rd. Use your army to do something about it rather than just sitting around doing nothing!
You researched Recall first, and you never used it in the game. Stasis is probably the safer 1st upgrade, since you can use it to defend an early Terran push, and your Arbiters will actually have the energy to use it when the upgrade completes.
After you place your 3rd Nexus, take your 2nd gas when you make your Citadel, as teching to Arbiters is very gas-heavy. Also, rally your Stargates to your natural. Rally the Gateways at 2 o' clock, too.
Good army composition in general. I didn't think you had too many Dragoons or too many Zealots at any point. I liked how you used Shuttles with Zealot bombs in your engagements.
I felt like you should've started +1 Weapons in your Forge a little sooner. I usually see it started around when the first Arbiter is building.
Gosh, I'm tired now. Maybe I'll continue later if you find my advice helpful.
I've been using pylon walls as of late instead of getting 2 cannons in my 3rd. I used to do that because vultures could just run into my 3rd anyway when I was out on the map (Which can usually be contributed to my bad play for sending to many dragoons to deal with vultures or simply not having good map control), but I'm trying to fix that with some better army positioning.
About my build. I was thinking of chaning the opening, but in general I don't really think it's that bad. It's quite well optimized and can pretty much hold of anything with proper micro - Also like the fact that people sometimes mistake it for 10/15 :D
I have also started getting statis fiirst instead, but I still haven't found the optimal timing to start teching and to take my 4th, 5th vs a fast 3rd base. The above is mostly what I'm dealing with in PvT right now and I also decided to dedicate a little bit more time to Snipealot and specifically study how to engage an army.
N.genuity pointed out that I should run in with zealots, which is really obvious when I think about it now, but it just didn't occure to me before. I'm probably going to normaly hotkey my army 1-6 then double click a group of 12 zealots and hotkey them at 7 (If they end up in different control groups they should spread out better anyway)
So instead of Stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a Stasis, (Storm) stasis 1a2a3a4a5a6a7Move 7a stasis storm. Which doesn't seem that overwhelming when I get used to it
You didn't seem to read what I posted, so I won't give you any more advice. Also, why are you having people analyze how you used to play? I mean, for Christ's sake, post games or FPVODs of your most recent play to get the most up-to-date advice for your game. If you are building Pylon walls and getting Stasis first now, then that's great. It was such a waste of effort on my part for trying to notice these things you've already fixed. Good luck with your PvT.
It was played 2 weeks ago. I just added it in passing since I recorded them sometime ago. They are definitely still relevant though my play style is still the same. Also PvT is the Match Up I've been working on the most. PvZ is still relatively the same.
Honestly I'd much prefer if you guys took a look at the replay pack it was played this week and I did read your post I just didn't respond to everything you've said. I did go over the VOD again to see what exactly you were talking about.
Also I might be totally wrong about my 3rd timing, but I think it's *relatively* safe against everything. I take it just after I build my 3/4th gateway and since my AND both your proposed build have delayed obs, but I am considering canceling the 3rd if I see a 4 fact (?) and get my gateways up sooner and tech a little bit sooner as well.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
They don't necessarly go the same type of FE. I mean yes I'm trying to learn from them as well, but sadly I don't have an actual resource (Progames) where I could copy the transition to the letter.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
Also what do I do in the rare case of a 12 on 12 nex?
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
Also what do I do in the rare case of a 12 on 12 nex?
expand again, how dare he try to get econ advantage over you!
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
They don't necessarly go the same type of FE. I mean yes I'm trying to learn from them as well, but sadly I don't have an actual resource (Progames) where I could copy the transition to the letter.
If you go for 12nex and he responds by doing a non-12 nex FE, you should be way ahead. If you both go for 12 nex and you still lose, this is the ideal situation to learn from. You went for mirror builds in a mirror matchup, so it should be very easy to identify at what point the game diverged and what caused you to lose. Did he get a citadel faster than you? Expand faster? Do better drop harass? Whatever he did better than you, you should copy.
For some general guidelines, if you go 12nex vs 12nex you can skip/delay the forge and stop making zealots as soon as you scout him (so you don't need to make five) unless he keeps making them (in which case you should match him defensively). Also, what dRaW said.
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
They don't necessarly go the same type of FE. I mean yes I'm trying to learn from them as well, but sadly I don't have an actual resource (Progames) where I could copy the transition to the letter.
If you go for 12nex and he responds by doing a non-12 nex FE, you should be way ahead. If you both go for 12 nex and you still lose, this is the ideal situation to learn from. You went for mirror builds in a mirror matchup, so it should be very easy to identify at what point the game diverged and what caused you to lose. Did he get a citadel faster than you? Expand faster? Do better drop harass? Whatever he did better than you, you should copy.
For some general guidelines, if you go 12nex vs 12nex you can skip/delay the forge and stop making zealots as soon as you scout him (so you don't need to make five) unless he keeps making them (in which case you should match him defensively). Also, what dRaW said.
When I played a 12 nex vs 12 nex. I won, but I think that he had the better transition it's just that his micro was abysmal. I delayed my forge by A LOT and went for 4 quick gateways and pumped goons instead of cannons.
Next time I'm going to experiment with cutting a round of zealots as well. Thanks for the help Sayle I really appreciate it
On August 19 2013 18:42 thezanursic wrote: Also in PvP if I go for 12 nex and my opponent goes 8 pylon and scouts me on his first try should I 12/12 as I did or can I do something more optimal?
If he knows what you're doing and blocks your nexus, I don't think you can do anything besides 12/12. A lot of players haven't seen 12nex before though (maybe no longer true on iccup...) so you can sometimes just place the nexus anyway. In theory, you should be able to defend a followup 2gate from him especially since he lost so many early minerals doing a pylon scout.
You are basically infamous for doing 12 nex can you please give me a tip or two how to transition after you have your 4 gateways pumping goons relative to your opponent of course.
I tried to look through the thread, but there's nothing specific and also the replays don't show what I needed to see.
Thanks for your help anyway!
Assuming that you went for the 'normal' 4-5 gate followup to defend your 12nex and didn't suffer too much damage to his initial attack (if any), you should be in a really good mid-game position and can follow up however you like. I usually skip reavers and go straight for templar tech since I find that to be stronger in lategame situations. I don't really have any specific transitions or advice for you. Just keep macroing and ride your build advantage into the lategame. Try to make fewer dragoons and more archons/speedlots.
Remember that it's a mirror matchup so as long as you start out ahead and don't fuck up too badly, you should be able to win.
Usually, but when it comes to another FEing toss (whom are usually a lot better than me) just have so much better transitions than me and end up edging out that lead that just kills me.
Then why don't you watch the replay and copy their transitions? This is why I love playing mirror matchups. If you lose, you can just copy what the other guy did.
Also what do I do in the rare case of a 12 on 12 nex?
expand again, how dare he try to get econ advantage over you!
While this is the obvious answer, I am still lacking the gamse sense to know when to expand vs another 12 nex. That's why I'm asking for help. I mean at this point I have learned quite a couple of ins and outs versus 2 gate builfs and 1 gate cores, but my experience with other 12 nex is limited to say the least.
EPT
