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On August 24 2013 02:25 msl wrote:
Regarding the dicussion about "die Linke" further up, the problem is that they are basicly blocking the place of a real modern left party with their communist notalgia version of being left, forcing the SPD to the center where they are not really distingushiable from the CDU at all. And since people seem to like Angie better then Peer we'll get her again. *sigh*
nah dude nobody forced the SPD anywhere. With Schröder started the downfall of the SPD and they still can not get out of it because they are too scared to embrace the S in SPD. What they do is just agree with Merkel on everything so they can get back into a coalition and rule again where they will lose even more support because they will not be able to distinguish themselves from the CDU.
Because of this behaviour the SPD lost it's left leaning votes to Die Linke ( who I will vote for because I want strong opposition), and is losing it's center votes to the CDU. The SPD made it's own grave and is now slowly dying in it.
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On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs.
Why?
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On August 24 2013 02:58 Toadesstern wrote:
who is that "biggest winner of this failed experiment" you talk about?
you just linked an article describing how the EU has hurt Germany tremendously as it might still be quite decent, but got a lot poorer in comparision to other european countries in the meantime, despite the fairly good time we had throughout the crisis.
Winning is relative in this case. The euro is hurting Germany but it is hurting everyone else much, much more. Everyone else lost tremendously because the euro is too strong. Germany's export industry which has benefited from a relatively weak euro (compared to what D-mark would currently be valued as) keeps Germany in the winning column for now, but even for Germany the euro is bad (too weak) in the long run. Germany needs a stronger D-mark and other countries need devaluation to get their local markets going.
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On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why?
No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back.
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Hi there,
this might be a bit off topic but then again i've read this argument a couple of times in this thread now, that's why i'm asking.
it seems to be a general consensus that the Euro is hurting Europe. Why is that so? I really enjoy to travel to France, the Netherlands, Poland, .. without having to get different money. What is the problem that Poles can work in Germany and get paid in their own currency?
If the Euro is hurting the european countries, will the "Deutsche Mark" then hurt the different federal states after we (hypothetically) reintroduced it?
Also, I don't get how it makes any difference at all what name I write onto the stuff I pay my bread with. Be it Reichsmark, cigarettes, Deutsche Mark or Euro, whats the difference?
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On August 24 2013 03:45 Grollicus wrote:
Hi there,
this might be a bit off topic but then again i've read this argument a couple of times in this thread now, that's why i'm asking.
it seems to be a general consensus that the Euro is hurting Europe. Why is that so? I really enjoy to travel to France, the Netherlands, Poland, .. without having to get different money. What is the problem that Poles can work in Germany and get paid in their own currency?
If the Euro is hurting the european countries, will the "Deutsche Mark" then hurt the different federal states after we (hypothetically) reintroduced it?
Also, I don't get how it makes any difference at all what name I write onto the stuff I pay my bread with. Be it Reichsmark, cigarettes, Deutsche Mark or Euro, whats the difference?
Different currencies allow for flexible exchange rates, which allow countries to devaluate their currency, thus making export easier and import harder which stimulates economic growth and creates jobs.
One currency takes the possibility of monetary policies away from the states to tze EZB, which lead to the current situation in which the Euro is undervalued/artifically low for Germany and too strong for the southern European countries.
So the Euro made it easier for countries like Greece to import a lot of stuff, which resulted in high debt and cash flow away from Germany into the Southern states, creating hugh economic liabilities leading to the situation we have now, where we frequently have to bail out the people we sell our products too, because we're basically giving them away for free just to keep our too large export-industry alive.
That's the short version basically.
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Germany433 Posts
On August 24 2013 03:45 Grollicus wrote:
Hi there,
this might be a bit off topic but then again i've read this argument a couple of times in this thread now, that's why i'm asking.
it seems to be a general consensus that the Euro is hurting Europe. Why is that so? I really enjoy to travel to France, the Netherlands, Poland, .. without having to get different money. What is the problem that Poles can work in Germany and get paid in their own currency?
If the Euro is hurting the european countries, will the "Deutsche Mark" then hurt the different federal states after we (hypothetically) reintroduced it?
Also, I don't get how it makes any difference at all what name I write onto the stuff I pay my bread with. Be it Reichsmark, cigarettes, Deutsche Mark or Euro, whats the difference?
Currencies of different countries are used to balance trade between those countries.
With the Euro this ability to balance trade was lost... imbalances grew bigger and the problems formed.
Very short answer... much more to it of course. If you want to get it you have to study some national economy especially foreing trade (which just by reading your question, i don't think you have)
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Euro being too strong for most of Europe also means these countries are struggling to keep their own industry alive. The workers' wages are comparatively too high so industry that can escapes to countries with cheaper labor and industries that cant escape (like construction for example) imports cheap labor from cheaper labor countries. This leads to unemployment, which leads to lower tax incomes for governments and reduction of buying power, which leads to yet more unemployment because no one is buying anything and the government needs to either cut expenses or borrow money from foreign sources since we don't have our national central banks to borrow from anymore. It's a self feeding cycle.
Also since it is no longer beneficial to produce anything in the country we have to rely heavily on imports for even the most basic products. This leads to trade deficits, which basically means more money is flowing out of the country than coming in. If we had devalued currencies these imports would become more expensive, so it would again be more beneficial to locally produce things. For a great example of this, Greece used to be a very agriculture dependent country that produced almost all the food it ate by itself. Their agriculture was not the most efficient, but a weak drakhma meant that it was still cheaper to produce locally than import food. After joining the eurozone this ratio has flipped completely and now Greece imports most of the food it eats.
The countries in the eurozone are simply too diverse in social and economic situations to have a single currency. They need currencies that can be valued with these variables accounted for.
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On August 24 2013 04:36 Dulak wrote:
Euro being too strong for most of Europe also means these countries are struggling to keep their own industry alive. The workers' wages are comparatively too high so industry that can escapes to countries with cheaper labor and industries that cant escape (like construction for example) imports cheap labor from cheaper labor countries. This leads to unemployment, which leads to lower tax incomes for governments and reduction of buying power, which leads to yet more unemployment because no one is buying anything and the government needs to either cut expenses or borrow money from foreign sources since we don't have our national central banks to borrow from anymore. It's a self feeding cycle.
Also since it is no longer beneficial to produce anything in the country we have to rely heavily on imports for even the most basic products. This leads to trade deficits, which basically means more money is flowing out of the country than coming in. If we had devalued currencies these imports would become more expensive, so it would again be more beneficial to locally produce things. For a great example of this, Greece used to be a very agriculture dependent country that produced almost all the food it ate by itself. Their agriculture was not the most efficient, but a weak drakhma meant that it was still cheaper to produce locally than import food. After joining the eurozone this ratio has flipped completely and now Greece imports most of the food it eats.
The countries in the eurozone are simply too diverse in social and economic situations to have a single currency. They need currencies that can be valued with these variables accounted for.
Or a single gouverment for Europe. But unfortunately I don't see that happening.
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Because the current goverment activities of the European Union are so great, they must be extended.
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On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back.
Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation:
1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper).
2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer).
3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that).
And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state.
Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time.
To sum it up in short:
Germany will most likely not lead the deconstruction of the Eurozone. Only if there is the absolute necessity to do so, this will ever happen. All imprtant parties (CDU/CSU, SPD, FDP, Grüne) and big parts of the media support more or less the existence of the Euro and no leading politician would like to become known in history for the destruction of the pinnacle of european integration the Euro is believed to be.
There are three possible ways how this can further develop:
1) The pressure on the southern states is high enough to impose serious structural reforms on their labor market, their social and health systems and clever investment strategies, public stimuli and lower wages lead to a recovery and in the end stabilization of the Euro on its currently reasonably high level (meaning some sort of Euro-Mark). This is basically what Merkel would love to see.
2) The typical coalition of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece and also France make sure that the ECB makes sure that the interest rates for said countries is not too high by amassing bonds of these countries. This will inevitably lead to a devaluation of the Euro, which means that solving the debt problem is easier. However, those who have been saving money, essentially lose part of their fortune. Indicators for this development are a discrepancy between inflation and basic interest rates (i.e. say the inflation is at 2 %, but you get only 1 % interest on your savings; this means you effectively lose 1 % of your fortune each year) overall increasing inflation (i.e. power, gasoline, food, rent, real estate, rising stock markets,...) and wages that are not being raised in the same rate of the current inflation. This scenario benefits a lot those, who have debts, namely the southern states, also dubbed Club Med.
3) Due to extreme pressure, one or more states of the Eurozone decide to leave the common currency and, after a time of shocks on the finance markets, try to get their economy going again through devaluation of their own currency. Candidates for this would be some of the bigger economies, such as Italy, Spain or France, where it is clear that Germany and the other net payers are not able to reasonably solve the problems of the states in peril with a simple bail out. After this precedence and depending on the outcome, others might follow, and the Eurozone could remain as a core of economical powerhouses, offering the other EU states to enter this common currency only under certain, strict conditions (basically how the Euro should have been in the first place).
Scenario 1) is wishful thinking in my view. Scenario 2) is the most likely one, because we are already in it, and Merkel and Co. would lead the german people into inflation rather than doing something that might be uncomfortable for her image in the history books. Scenario 3) cannot be discounted, because at some point the current system will just not work anymore (personally I think that France might be a likely candidate, since the french people are known to be nasty, when it comes to harsh reforms that might be considered unsocial).
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On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time.
a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future.
Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion.
They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China.
And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon.
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The Euro under these circumstances at this time was a bad idea but I believe getting rid of the € wouldn't change anything or maybe even make it worse. It's not 2002 anymore. Globalization has developed in the last 10 years and every country in europe has to compete with china, india, brazil, germany etc. no matter the currency.
On top of that, it doesn't actually matter what we think about the €. The banks want the €, The US want the € for geopolitical reasons so it will stay. There is absolutly zero chance to change the currency in europe no matter how retarded the party is we vote.
If we don't change our financial system so the people who are in charge don't benfit from the debt of countries and the bankruptcy of us as the tax paying people why should it get any better?
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On August 24 2013 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time. a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future. Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion. They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China. And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon.
That view seems completly reasonable, considering examples of countries standing up against spying are: Ecuador, Bolivia, Iceland and other "strong" players.
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On August 24 2013 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time. a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future. Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion. They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China. And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon.
Naive or not, this is the sole reason that i support a combined EU. At the moment the only EU country that is among the biggest 20 countries is Germany. In a few years (relatively speaking) when many of the emerging economies of Asia will have economies comparable Germany, France and UK and much larger populations, a split Europe will have zero political influence.
That being said i don't know if it is a good idea that Northern Europe share a currency with anything south of Germany.
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On August 24 2013 06:58 legor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time. a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future. Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion. They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China. And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon. That view seems completly reasonable, considering examples of countries standing up against spying are: Ecuador, Bolivia, Iceland and other "strong" players.
well those countries don't have treaties to do as the US wants them to do with their (not the US-ones) intelligence services. They also don't happen to have none of their goldreservers in their own country due to WW2.
It's understandable from a German point of view if you want to get past these treaties of the past.
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On August 24 2013 07:01 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time. a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future. Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion. They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China. And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon. Naive or not, this is the sole reason that i support a combined EU. At the moment the only EU country that is among the biggest 20 countries is Germany. In a few years (relatively speaking) when many of the emerging economies of Asia will have economies comparable Germany, France and UK and much larger populations, a split Europe will have zero political influence. That being said i don't know if it is a good idea that Northern Europe share a currency with anything south of Germany.
If you want international recognition it is easier and cheaper to get nukes and a launch platform. I don't favour that approach but it is a much simpler solution to the problem you present.
I favour EU because it is another step towards no countries on Earth. The rest I don't really care for but can accept for the very long term goal. The same would apply to the Euro if my country was a part of it. I see a lot of downsides but could live with them for the potential long term.
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Germany doesn't have a treaty that tells them to do as the US wishes. It is totally not understandable from a German point of view if you consider their history in intelligence agencys like the gestapo or stasi.
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We're going way off topic, but here goes anyway.
Small countries in Europe should have no interests in expanding the powers of EU, in fact they should mostly be getting the hell out of there. The whole EU structure is so undemocratic that smaller countries just sign their legislative power away and don't see any benefits coming their way. MEPs are the only democratically elected part of the EU machine, but they only have power to make amendments to law proposals and even the amendments go back to be reviewed by the undemocratically appointed council of ministers and european council and can be discarded at their leisure. In other words our only elected representatives have no power. Laws are proposed by the 3000+ workgroups whose members we are not even allowed to know.
Largest net contributors (financial losers) to the EU per capita are Finland and Denmark. What we get back is a jungle of useless directives. US and China don't give a rats ass about us, so Germany, France and Italy can have their union if they want, just let me out! 
As far as common currency goes, even having only Northern Europe in the eurozone would still hurt everyone involved. Germany would still be too strong of an export machine, at least for now.
EDIT: And to comment on Restrider's post which was great:
It seems to be the same in all eurozone countries, no one wants to be the first to break ranks. Propositions of leaving the eurozone here in Finland regularly get criticized with many of the same reasons; possible political and financial isolation. Even so I don't think it will be a question of if some country will leave, but when. Many respected economists, retired government officials and even some CEOs are calling for Finland to be the first to leave the eurozone while we still have our AAA rating intact and less than 60% GDP debt. This is well past a crisis of only the southern countries, unemployment and government debt is rapidly rising here as well.
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Dulak, i see you seem to love ideology, but your talk about germany realy leaving the € zone as the first country is absurd a best. Reality is, that all important parties in germany view the € as something valuable.
Now you can "dream" about what you want to happen or acknowlede what WILL happen and that is, if Finnland doesn't leave the € zone, germany won't do it in a million years.
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EPT
