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On August 24 2013 08:10 Crytash wrote:
Dulak, i see you seem to love ideology, but your talk about germany realy leaving the € zone as the first country is absurd a best. Reality is, that all important parties in germany view the € as something valuable.
Now you can "dream" about what you want to happen or acknowlede what WILL happen and that is, if Finnland doesn't leave the € zone, germany won't do it in a million years.
It is not that easy to get a picture of German politics if you can't read German, that's why I'm here. And yes, the political realities of Germany have become abundantly clear, in that they only promise more of the same. Still it's fun to talk about this stuff and one can always dream, right? 
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http://www.spiegel.de/international/
and there are plenty of others of basically every major german magazine/newspaper
In the end people are not realy hyped about this election, becouse the outcome is (to a certain point) predictable. Even with a mediocre voter turn out of 70%+ people don't want a big change either.
The political partys just promise the same, becouse the majority of the people actually like that,
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It is not that easy to get a picture of German politics if you can't read German, that's why I'm here. And yes, the political realities of Germany have become abundantly clear, in that they only promise more of the same. Still it's fun to talk about this stuff and one can always dream, right?
Indeed, and that last sentence was rather German of you. I rather adore Nietzsche's definition of the German soul:
The German soul has passages and galleries in it, there are caves, hiding-places, and dungeons therein, its disorder has much of the charm of the mysterious, the German is well acquainted with the bypaths to chaos. And as everything loves its symbol, so the German loves the clouds and all that is obscure, evolving, crepuscular, damp, and shrouded, it seems to him that everything uncertain, undeveloped, self-displacing, and growing is "deep". The German himself does not EXIST, he is BECOMING, he is "developing himself". "Development" is therefore the essentially German discovery and hit in the great domain of philosophical formulas,—a ruling idea, which, together with German beer and German music, is labouring to Germanise all Europe. Foreigners are astonished and attracted by the riddles which the conflicting nature at the basis of the German soul propounds to them (riddles which Hegel systematised and Richard Wagner has in the end set to music).
It is equally clear that whatever remained of that introspective German, more preoccupied with the paradoxes of his personal existence than with the infantising world of high politics after 1945, and which still survived the imbroglios of the sixties, will be destroyed by Europe and everything it represents. Germans are still that depth and richness when one can persuade them to speak of life beneath the upper world. Engaging a German student in conversation about literature or poetry or the religious mysteries is a vast, sublime delight. When speaking to Germans, one ought to avoid any missteps which might lead his tongue unto the high road of politics. Should he escape there, your dream will soon be shattered with the realisation that the deep and powerful thinker sitting before you is after all, a real idiot.
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The political partys just promise the same, becouse the majority of the people actually like that,
That awkwardness of the electorate fits hand in glove with the neutered aspects of their political personality. Germans may be opinionated as they will, but are in the ordinary mortified at saying something stupid in public. In short, Germans are cautious speakers. So too in politics, the most respectable individuals defer their judgements to the opinions of specialists and experts. The German press is risk-averse and substitutes opinions with information. Germans feel most secure opening their mouths in fora where the majority of people are known as a fact to be less informed than they are (i.e. tl.net,) usually in the capacity of a benevolent pedagogue, "setting the facts straight," and so forth.
Beyond that, you will occasionally have 18 year-olds and college students mimicking some fairly ordinary ideals, the type of thing to be found at Miss America pageants: "I wish for world peace," and so forth. In all, the peaceful co-habitation between the vigorous inner ideal, and the bland outer conformity is a trait about Germany which is something of a national eccentricity. Frederick the Great's adage that "My people and I have come to an accord which satisfies us both. They are to say as they please, and I am to do as I please." can be applied to the modern generation of governance as well.
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On August 24 2013 07:01 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:On August 24 2013 06:11 Restrider wrote:On August 24 2013 03:33 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote:On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote:
As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example.
As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. Why? No votes are needed to give up the Euro. Germany can simply decide to leave and take the D-mark back. It is also in the best place financially to set a precedent. All you need is enough political will inside the country to make it happen. If you can't see how closely most of europe follows Germany's lead (maybe save for France and Italy as the two other economic "giants" in the eurozone) i don't know what to tell you. Don't sell yourselves short, Germany is in the driver's seat with France riding shotgun and the rest of us piping feebly in the back. Your assertions are (mostly) correct. However, the german public has been fed with the ideal of a united Europe and the phrase Merkel said that "if the Euro fails, Europe fails", has led them to believe that we have to give up everything we have to save the Euro. Seriously, with the exception of a few, most people somehow believe that one or more of the following things will happen, if Germany takes the initiative to leave the Eurozone or implement a mechanism of devaluation: 1) the DM would increase exponentially and kill the german economy that relies on export (although they always ignore the fact that imported goods like oil, gas, resources and pre-assembled parts would equally become cheaper). 2) this act of leaving the other european nations behind would lead to political isolation and could result in taxation of german goods as one extreme (again the same line of reasoning that our export industry would suffer). 3) and, I kid you not, war (ridiculous to believe that). And this atmosphere is supported by what I would call the political-media complex. Due to Germany's past, most germans tend to avoid trying to stand their ground, when it comes to hardship in EU politics and give in (most time with the cheques). And there is also the ideal of creating a european super-state, centralized, rendering the individual nations superfluous. And as far as I know, this is only fact in Germany. People from other EU countries I've met usually laugh at the idea to give up nationality and think of the EU as a partnership of convenience to regain some influence in the world. More in the line of a confederation and not of a sovereign state. Of course the idea that the EU will disappear without the Euro is supreme idiocy. After all, the Euro may be the biggest threat to the EU of all time. a lot of people who support the EU are doing so because they see it as the best option to get something that is allowed to rule itself again and does so in a way it's possible to stand up against the US and maybe China in the future. Remember all the NSA stuff for example? People I talked to have the hope that with a stronger Europe, Europe at least would stop helping the US spy on their own (EU that is) people. That's at least what I'm getting at when I asked my friends about this stuff and their opinion. They're afraid that the single european countries, also including the "strong" players like Germany and France are meaningless and a mere playball in the hands of the likes of the US / China. And I can understand that point of view, although I'd probably say it's naive, as I just don't see a "one big Europe" happening anytime soon. Naive or not, this is the sole reason that i support a combined EU. At the moment the only EU country that is among the biggest 20 countries is Germany. In a few years (relatively speaking) when many of the emerging economies of Asia will have economies comparable Germany, France and UK and much larger populations, a split Europe will have zero political influence. That being said i don't know if it is a good idea that Northern Europe share a currency with anything south of Germany.
Austria begs to differ!
Upon thinking I refuse to believe that all politician were so blinded by the European project that they thought a common currency without a somewhat streamlined economical policy would work. I think a lot of them were blinded by the huge leaps the european "unification" was making back then. (Remember Schengen? came about the same time[1995]). They simply expected it to be a continious process which would end in something like a "United states of Europe".
But then those pesky French and Dutch wanted their democracy and they shot the Treaty about constitution for Europe down which hindered the whole unification process. I bet this crisis could have been handled a lot better if this treaty would have gone through. I guess the problem was that the political leaders were somewhat confused as what to do next when they didn't got their constitution through so the EU was like a half build ship where the next step was missing but necessary.
Furthermore the problem of the GIIPS states was somewhere lingering but not urgent because the banks failed to properly account for the risks of them since they were € countries with an all in all stable economy. They failed to analyse that the south wasn't as stable as it seemed because it was covered by the north.
And so we are here now where most people see that it can't continue this way but are unsure where to make the next step. And don't expect any leadership from Merkel. She will decide exactly what the polls tell her.
When speaking to Germans, one ought to avoid any missteps which might lead his tongue unto the high road of politics. Should he escape there, your dream will soon be shattered with the realisation that the deep and powerful thinker sitting before you is after all, a real idiot.
Ha! Try talking about the "energiewende". you will enrage/become desperate faster than you can say "weather dependent".
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I noticed this thread got bumped on the birthday of Zatic (the OP).
Zum Geburtstag viel Glück!
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On August 24 2013 10:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +The political partys just promise the same, becouse the majority of the people actually like that, That awkwardness of the electorate fits hand in glove with the neutered aspects of their political personality. Germans may be opinionated as they will, but are in the ordinary mortified at saying something stupid in public. In short, Germans are cautious speakers. So too in politics, the most respectable individuals defer their judgements to the opinions of specialists and experts. The German press is risk-averse and substitutes opinions with information.
I am not sure, why you quoted me tbh.
Would you enjoy a german Sarah Palin, or what? :D Yes, german politicians will try hard not to say something stupid or even things that are just opinions - and that is not a bad thing at all and should be like that in most countrys.
What i am referring to , should be quite clear, why do experts exist in the first place? In the end noone is a omniscient, all knowing creature, but every decission in politcs should be made with the maximum amount of information, including opinions. Only a expert can bring that to the table.
On August 24 2013 10:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Germans feel most secure opening their mouths in fora where the majority of people are known as a fact to be less informed than they are (i.e. tl.net,) usually in the capacity of a benevolent pedagogue, "setting the facts straight," and so forth.
I disagree, that i germans feel/act the way you describe them or better i think that is a sterotype. Actually i write in some other discussion about the elections with a much better informed audience - actually i feel the other way around, i like to discuss these things in fora (btw correct use of that plural, many forget the origin of the word).
Please let us not discuss german stereotypes, it is utterly boring to hear these kinds of things over and over. I don't eat Kraut every day and i don't drink beer everyday either. I also find this stereotyp of the "benevolent pedagogue"/"exemplary student" quite annoying. Yes, i - and many fellow germans - try to correct things that are wrong, but that is the same with every other country as well. I'd also appreciate it if you would restrain yourself from using these kind of stereotypes, especially if they are not helping in a discussion.
On August 24 2013 10:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:Beyond that, you will occasionally have 18 year-olds and college students mimicking some fairly ordinary ideals, the type of thing to be found at Miss America pageants: "I wish for world peace," and so forth. In all, the peaceful co-habitation between the vigorous inner ideal, and the bland outer conformity is a trait about Germany which is something of a national eccentricity. Frederick the Great's adage that "My people and I have come to an accord which satisfies us both. They are to say as they please, and I am to do as I please." can be applied to the modern generation of governance as well.
I am not sure if this "trait" even exists, tbh. Yes the german youth is center left, but that is/was most of the youth in europe (esp. the south) and yes, the youth would like to have world peace - isn't that a good thing 
The quote you used is btw. only attributed to Frederick II of Prussia, it is not recognized by germans and the meaning of it is explained here:
No monarch was less particular in maintaining his royal dignity. He commanded his attendants to take down from a high wall a scurrilous placard upon himself, which a crowd was trying to read, and put it where they could see it better. “My subjects and I,” Frederick said, “have come to an agreement which satisfies us both. They are to say what they please, and I am to do what I please.” He seems to have been more scrupulous in regard to his personal dignity.
For everyone who lacked the context.
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Crytash, I always value your sophisticated opinion. If I may ask, how are you going to vote? MLPD again?
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pogo party :D
or was it APPD?
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On August 24 2013 18:43 Skilledblob wrote:
pogo party :D
or was it APPD?
is was APPD - Anarchistic pogo party deutschland :D
not to forget the violets - seem harmless on the outside, have an intern cult structure very close to scientology ^^
grey panthers don`t exist anymore I think, but that was a smart name pun (It's old people fighting for old people's right, people's old enough to remember the black panthers ^^)
Also, NPD totally missing in OP, basicly nazi party of germany, never make it to bundestag, but got the most insane election posters. They always hang up the highest on street laterns and stuff, because otherwise people would just rip them down.
My this year's personal favourite :"Money for Grandmummies, instead of sinti and romanies".
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On August 24 2013 19:22 HaRuHi wrote:
Also, NPD totally missing in OP, basicly nazi party of germany, never make it to bundestag, but got the most insane election posters. They always hang up the highest on street laterns and stuff, because otherwise people would just rip them down.
My this year's personal favourite :"Money for Grandmummies, instead of sinti and romanies". I always thought of that as a suggestion for what to do with their candidates.
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On August 24 2013 18:32 legor wrote:
Crytash, I always value your sophisticated opinion. If I may ask, how are you going to vote? MLPD again?
Ist it you Legorq? One of the best/worst Trolls there is in the german community:D ? Just read on DS.de and you can guess what i vote - and it is not left, nor did i ever voted that way.
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On August 24 2013 18:43 Skilledblob wrote:
pogo party :D
or was it APPD?
It's Partei für Arbeit, Rechtsstaat, Tierschutz, Elitenförderung und basisdemokratische Initiative. Sadly the best choice for september.
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On August 24 2013 10:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:
In short, Germans are cautious speakers. So too in politics, the most respectable individuals defer their judgements to the opinions of specialists and experts. The German press is risk-averse and substitutes opinions with information.
But we agree that this is actually a good thing , right?
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On August 25 2013 00:50 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 10:14 MoltkeWarding wrote:
In short, Germans are cautious speakers. So too in politics, the most respectable individuals defer their judgements to the opinions of specialists and experts. The German press is risk-averse and substitutes opinions with information. But we agree that this is actually a good thing , right?
Indeed. We keep open our possibilities.
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I think I will vote for AfD. The EUR in its current form does not work. Just look at south europe. It wont stop there.
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I also find this stereotyp of the "benevolent pedagogue"/"exemplary student" quite annoying. Yes, i - and many fellow germans - try to correct things that are wrong, but that is the same with every other country as well. I'd also appreciate it if you would restrain yourself from using these kind of stereotypes, especially if they are not helping in a discussion.
It's quite silly to think of beer and kraut when attributing stereotypes to Germans. Beer and kraut are caricatures, whereas all stereotypes are true. For instance:
I also find this stereotyp of the "benevolent pedagogue" quite annoying.
i like to discuss these things in fora (btw correct use of that plural, many forget the origin of the word).
It takes a virgin eye to see it though.
But we agree that this is actually a good thing , right?
Eh, that kind of frivolous statement is something of an inkblot test. The frustrated will continue to be frustrated with the way things work, and the appeased will continue to congratulate themselves on the virtues of their society.
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On August 25 2013 00:37 GeckoXp wrote:It's Partei für Arbeit, Rechtsstaat, Tierschutz, Elitenförderung und basisdemokratische Initiative. Sadly the best choice for september.
No those are 2 different parties: APPD; DIE PARTEI
I'm still kinda undecided who to vote for. The "wahl-o-mat" (an online-tool to compare the positions of different parties) always gives me agreement-ratings that are usually between 55% and 65% for all major parties (though most of the time SPD/Left party/greens are higher and FDP lowest), and that's about how I feel. I don't feel good about voting for any big party; even though in case of the left-leaning parties I mentioned it's normally their style of politics/behavior/party-leaders that annoy me much more than their actual politics.
So I'm probably going to vote for the pirate party, because I feel that their topics and their principle to get "normal people"/party members more involved would be something good for germany in general to talk more about.
On the bright side, as I don't care too much about the results and there isn't too much tension about what could happen anyway, this is probably a good time to register a "Wahlhelfer", somebody who helps in organizing the election/counting votes etc. Last time I checked, my city still needed some of them.
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The political landscape in Germany is same old, same old...
If someone was to wave a gun into my general direction and asks for pro Merkel or pro Steinbrück, I would politely ask to be shot.
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On August 26 2013 16:49 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 00:37 GeckoXp wrote:On August 24 2013 18:43 Skilledblob wrote:
pogo party :D
or was it APPD? It's Partei für Arbeit, Rechtsstaat, Tierschutz, Elitenförderung und basisdemokratische Initiative. Sadly the best choice for september. No those are 2 different parties: APPD; DIE PARTEII'm still kinda undecided who to vote for. The "wahl-o-mat" (an online-tool to compare the positions of different parties) always gives me agreement-ratings that are usually between 55% and 65% for all major parties (though most of the time SPD/Left party/greens are higher and FDP lowest), and that's about how I feel. I don't feel good about voting for any big party; even though in case of the left-leaning parties I mentioned it's normally their style of politics/behavior/party-leaders that annoy me much more than their actual politics. So I'm probably going to vote for the pirate party, because I feel that their topics and their principle to get "normal people"/party members more involved would be something good for germany in general to talk more about. On the bright side, as I don't care too much about the results and there isn't too much tension about what could happen anyway, this is probably a good time to register a "Wahlhelfer", somebody who helps in organizing the election/counting votes etc. Last time I checked, my city still needed some of them.
I do know these are two different parties, I simply wasn't sure what "party" meant in the context and thought he referred to Sonneborn (which obviously is a way funnier project than APPD). On a sidenote, if you're not in Bavaria (Landtagswahlen & Volksentscheide), the wahl-o-mat still won't work and doesn't test for every party (dunno what you meant there). There is an alternative called Bundewahlkompass, which doesn't help out either.
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EPT
